Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:56 AM - Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (Lynn Matteson)
2. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (Lynn Matteson)
3. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (wwillyard@aol.com)
4. 04:34 AM - Re: Crud in my fuel (Bob Unternaehrer)
5. 04:57 AM - wheel landings (Fox5flyer)
6. 06:32 AM - Wheel Landings Lynn, Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (Dave)
7. 06:46 AM - Re: wheel landings (Aerobatics@aol.com)
8. 06:52 AM - Kitfox Videos on Google (kitfoxjunky)
9. 06:56 AM - Looking for a kitfox trailer (wingnut)
10. 07:09 AM - Re: Crud in my fuel (wingnut)
11. 07:14 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Dave)
12. 07:19 AM - Re: Kitfox Videos on Google (Dave)
13. 07:42 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Sjklerks@AOL.COM)
14. 07:52 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer ()
15. 08:00 AM - Re: wheel landings (wwillyard@aol.com)
16. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Crud in my fuel (wingsdown)
17. 08:00 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (jareds)
18. 08:01 AM - Re: Stall speed Kitfox Videos on Google (jareds)
19. 08:27 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (wingnut)
20. 08:30 AM - Re: Crud in my fuel (wingnut)
21. 08:36 AM - Re: wheel landings (Marco Menezes)
22. 08:42 AM - Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input (Lynn Matteson)
23. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (Lynn Matteson)
24. 08:49 AM - Re: wheel landings (Lynn Matteson)
25. 08:51 AM - Re: Wheel Landings Lynn, Re: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) (Lynn Matteson)
26. 08:55 AM - Re: wheel landings (Lynn Matteson)
27. 08:57 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Lynn Matteson)
28. 08:58 AM - wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Jose M. Toro)
29. 09:20 AM - Re: Member List (Rueb, Duane)
30. 09:28 AM - Wheel landings Clip from Ed downs book (Dave)
31. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer ()
32. 10:27 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Bill Malpass)
33. 10:52 AM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Richard D'Archangel)
34. 10:53 AM - Re: Classes of aircraft (Michel Verheughe)
35. 10:57 AM - Re: wheel landings (Michel Verheughe)
36. 11:04 AM - Re: Stall speed (Michel Verheughe)
37. 11:57 AM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Fox5flyer)
38. 12:00 PM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Aerobatics@aol.com)
39. 12:01 PM - Re: Wheel landings Clip from Ed downs book (Lynn Matteson)
40. 12:05 PM - Re: Stall speed (Lynn Matteson)
41. 12:36 PM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (wingnut)
42. 12:42 PM - Re: Stall speed (Michel Verheughe)
43. 12:47 PM - Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input (wingnut)
44. 01:32 PM - Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input (Aerobatics@aol.com)
45. 03:00 PM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Dave)
46. 03:01 PM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Jose M. Toro)
47. 03:55 PM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Bob Unternaehrer)
48. 04:29 PM - two point landings (Dee Young)
49. 05:25 PM - Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer (Lowell Fitt)
50. 06:32 PM - Re: wheel landings (john perry)
51. 07:13 PM - Re: landings with Ed Downs (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
52. 07:28 PM - Re: wheel landings (John Anderson)
53. 07:49 PM - Re: two point landings (Dave and Diane)
54. 08:02 PM - Re: Stall speed (jareds)
55. 09:08 PM - Re: Stall speed (ron schick)
56. 09:33 PM - Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot (Lowell Fitt)
57. 09:47 PM - Re: wheel landings (Tom Tomlin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Where and when will this "marching band" festival happen? I'll be glad
to go there, if the weather clears up and I can get the 'ride done and
approved. From the sounds of things weather-wise, I need to get some
ski training done as well as the wheel landings that some people are
strongly suggesting. I'm gonna check with my instructor this morning
about the "wheelers", and I'm gonna also check Earl/Ed? Downs book "How
to fly your Kitfox" to recall what he said about landings. I seem to
recall that he said three-pointers only.
lynn
do not archive
On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers"
> <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
>
>> Bill W. sez .... Sorry to hear this Richard, I was looking forward to
>> it weather permitting.
>> Also sorry we could not get together at the Jenison airport as well.
>> I don't know which flight instructor you talked with, but one in
>> particular really likes the sound of my 912 on departure.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bill W.
>>
>
>
> Weve not managed to push back this first blast of winter. Hopefully
> there will be a long fall after this cold wave.
>
> Yes Bill, that's the one.....he liked the sight, AND the sound of your
> Fox.
>
> Lynn, you may want to drop in with your Jabaru sound. (though it may
> not be audible over the marching band. Spotters are posted all over
> the state... ?where will he go first? )
> --------------
> Well you guys... at least you're all flying.
> I know we'll find an opportunity to get together one of these days.
> ......
> Opps, correction on previous message - Jenison/Riverview is WEST of
> G.R.
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Richard in SW Michigan
> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66942#66942
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I'm waiting for a call from the examiner this morning, but don't expect
it to be a "go" for a checkride today...more like Sat or Sun at best.
Yeah, Richard, I sometimes fall into the 'stuff' and come out smellin'
like a rose, and yesterday was no exception...I got real lucky, and
learned a good lesson. My instructor told me I just "used up one of my
99 lives"...imagine, 11 times luckier than a cat!
Lynn
do not archive
On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 11:35 PM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers"
> <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
> Lynn,
>
> You're gaining and sharing lots of experience.
> I recall you suggesting 'I' be careful. Same to you, buddy.
>
> Second chances don't always happen. Glad your story had a happy ending.
>
> Wheel landings....
> I'm no expert, but enjoyed the challange of learning (in a Champ)
> Will pursue again if / when wheels go on.
>
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Richard in SW Michigan
> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67070#67070
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) |
Lynn,
Carrying that briefcase will give you a head start on your wheel landing technique.
Bill W.
>....you guessed it...the briefcase was turned the long way in the seat and blocked
the stick.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools,
free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL
Mail and more.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Crud in my fuel |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Could you collect enough to see if a magnet sticks to it. Don't know where
rust can come from in a fox, so might have came from the gas station or your
storage IF it is really rust. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Crud in my fuel
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> For the past few months, I've noticed tiny bits of rust colored crud in
the fuel when I draw from the gascolator. It started as a tiny bit that
would go away after draining a mall amount of fuel so I didn't worry too
much (though it was always on my mind). Today, after not flying for over a
month, I found that it's gotten much worse. Some of the bits are much larger
now, like small flakes of rust. I've heard that auto fuel can attack the
lining of the wing tanks. Does this sound like what I could be seeing?
>
> Luis Rodriguez
> N824KF
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67043#67043
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06)
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Where and when will this "marching band" festival happen? I'll be glad
> to go there, if the weather clears up and I can get the 'ride done and
> approved. From the sounds of things weather-wise, I need to get some
> ski training done as well as the wheel landings that some people are
> strongly suggesting. I'm gonna check with my instructor this morning
> about the "wheelers", and I'm gonna also check Earl/Ed? Downs book "How
> to fly your Kitfox" to recall what he said about landings. I seem to
> recall that he said three-pointers only.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop |
Flyin (10/15/06)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Lynn,
Pretty hard to master crosswind landings without being able to do wheel
landings.
Like I said in last mail, learn all aspects of anything that can be put in
front of you.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Where and when will this "marching band" festival happen? I'll be glad
to go there, if the weather clears up and I can get the 'ride done and
approved. From the sounds of things weather-wise, I need to get some
ski training done as well as the wheel landings that some people are
strongly suggesting. I'm gonna check with my instructor this morning
about the "wheelers", and I'm gonna also check Earl/Ed? Downs book "How
to fly your Kitfox" to recall what he said about landings. I seem to
recall that he said three-pointers only.
lynn
do not archive
On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
>
>> Bill W. sez .... Sorry to hear this Richard, I was looking forward to it
>> weather permitting.
>> Also sorry we could not get together at the Jenison airport as well. I
>> don't know which flight instructor you talked with, but one in particular
>> really likes the sound of my 912 on departure.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bill W.
>>
>
>
> Weve not managed to push back this first blast of winter. Hopefully
> there will be a long fall after this cold wave.
>
> Yes Bill, that's the one.....he liked the sight, AND the sound of your
> Fox.
>
> Lynn, you may want to drop in with your Jabaru sound. (though it may not
> be audible over the marching band. Spotters are posted all over the
> state... ?where will he go first? )
> --------------
> Well you guys... at least you're all flying.
> I know we'll find an opportunity to get together one of these days.
> ......
> Opps, correction on previous message - Jenison/Riverview is WEST of G.R.
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Richard in SW Michigan
> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66942#66942
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are
short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer. Out
here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said
that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on
the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down from a
wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the
fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge concern,
on
pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car
instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
Message 8
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| Subject: | Kitfox Videos on Google |
I purchased a new digital still camera. It does short full motion video
clips too. I dropped a few of these onto Google Video. Go to Google,
select the more option and pick video. If you type Kitfox as the search
criteria...you will see them..and a few that others have created. Quality
is not the greatest, as the Google streaming video degrades them a bit.
You may find them interesting if you are new to the list and thinking
maybe the Kitfox is the plane for you, or if you just like seeing a Kitfox
fly.
Cheers,
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a trailer.
I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one that she'll fit
in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car haulers that will work
but they're a bit spendy and they seem like overkill for a 600lb airplane. It
occurs to me that a boat trailer would be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive
on the used market. Anyone ever convert a boat trailer or something similar
to cary a kitfox?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Crud in my fuel |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Thanks for the tips everyone. To be honest, I'm feeling a little over my head.
The plane is due (over due actually) for a condition inspection so I'm just going
to try to trailer her to the nearest mechanic. I have to say, I love this
plane but it's given me enough problems now that I'm thinking of selling her and
going with a GA airplane. :-(
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67122#67122
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
I have trailered Kitfoxes on flatbeds before.Wings folded and nose first on
trailer and wing braces on front of spars.
Just strapped down the main gear and tailwheel same as trailering anything
really .
Just make sure it does not move. I don't think i ever went over 50 mph.
A note , you can remove one wing and fold the other and fit it into a
enclosed trailer. 8 foot x 24 footer. The wing will fit bewteen the mail
wheels on the floor of trailer as well.
Kitfox Folder is just under 8 feet adn with both wings might not fit in a 8
foot wide trailer.
I have a friend that has a avid trailer in SW Ontario that might loan it out
and it would surely fit some Kitfoxes.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Looking for a kitfox trailer
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a
> trailer. I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one
> that she'll fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car
> haulers that will work but they're a bit spendy and they seem like
> overkill for a 600lb airplane. It occurs to me that a boat trailer would
> be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive on the used market. Anyone
> ever convert a boat trailer or something similar to cary a kitfox?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Videos on Google |
Gary -- wow Great Movies !!
I found them here
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=walsh+kitfox&hl=en
You are quite a pilot !!
Got any take off videos ?
Did you see the ones i did last week ?
3 planes flying here http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/coffeebreak.wmv
Dave
PS you want ot go for breakfast flyin this weekend ? A few others are
talking about Reeces corner again near Sarnia. It a grass strip but
you could land at Sarnia and I could pick you up and take you in if you
like . A few grass runways not gonna kill your floats. My amphibs had
over 1000 takesoffs and landing on grass but there is wear to show for
all that .:)
PS did i tell you that aerocets land nice on grass with gear up ? :)
----- Original Message -----
From: kitfoxjunky
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Videos on Google
I purchased a new digital still camera. It does short full motion
video clips too. I dropped a few of these onto Google Video. Go to
Google, select the more option and pick video. If you type Kitfox as
the search criteria...you will see them..and a few that others have
created. Quality is not the greatest, as the Google streaming video
degrades them a bit. You may find them interesting if you are new to
the list and thinking maybe the Kitfox is the plane for you, or if you
just like seeing a Kitfox fly.
Cheers,
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
Hi Wingnut, Not sure where you live but I have a 4 place snowmobile trailer
that works great for hauling kitfox's, fit's on there like a glove. I'm just
outside of Windsor if it's not to far away your more than welcome to use it.
Jim
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rkstevens@verizon.net>
All,
It just so happens that I am thinking of selling my Custom Made KitFox trailer.
I've put myself of the hangar wait list so don't feel the need to keep a trailer
around. Besides, I've got my Christen Eagle in a hangar already and could
probably squeeze my Fox in there as well.
About the trailer:
- Custom made for a KitFox IV
- Has electric brakes
- Has custom fuel tank & fuel pump (Think of a gas station pump - this is what
it's got)
- Aluminum diamond plate top deck
- Requires a 2" ball
I paid $2000 for it from Rick Gray a couple of years ago. It's Orange. It was
made by a fellow on the west coast who owned or ran a rental tool company. You
know the types of places that rent Bobcat skid loaders, etc. Well, this trailer
is sooooo heavy duty, it could easily carry a Bobcat tractor or two.
I'd like to not lose too much money on it...But...it's orange...and it's in my
backyard...and my wife "suggests" that I do something with it :-)
Ron
KitFox 6 - NSI Turbo CAP 140
Christen Eagle II
>From: wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>Date: 2006/10/11 Wed AM 08:56:16 CDT
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Looking for a kitfox trailer
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
>My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a trailer.
I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one that she'll
fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car haulers that will work
but they're a bit spendy and they seem like overkill for a 600lb airplane. It
occurs to me that a boat trailer would be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive
on the used market. Anyone ever convert a boat trailer or something
similar to cary a kitfox?
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
Dave,
I am inclined to agree with you both from experience and through the flight instructor
who gave my last biannual. He learned to fly tail draggers in South Dakota
and is not much of an advocate for wheel landings in small aircraft as a
solution for cross wind technique. I find that a touch of power will give me tail
authority all the way to the three point touch down should I need it.
I must say that this was the best biannual I ever had. We were having so much fun
taking turns flying that it lasted for over 3 hours. I learned more about tail
wheel flying and my Kitfox during this time than I have since I received my
tail wheel endorsement.
Bill W.
Yet another opinion....!
I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer. Out here
in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said that.
Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on the KF
2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down from a wheeler,
the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse blanketing
and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge concern, on pavement...
well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with
all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a wheeler.
But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools,
free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL
Mail and more.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Crud in my fuel |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Big mistake.....same problems, way more money. Take it for what it is
worth. Just my input.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:09 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Crud in my fuel
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Thanks for the tips everyone. To be honest, I'm feeling a little over my
head. The plane is due (over due actually) for a condition inspection so
I'm just going to try to trailer her to the nearest mechanic. I have to
say, I love this plane but it's given me enough problems now that I'm
thinking of selling her and going with a GA airplane. :-(
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67122#67122
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
I started out with a boat trailer that i modified but it was in the DC
area with lots of salt water corrosion so ditched it and bought a dual
axle flatbed trailer. I used it to take all my toys from DC to the
ranch in South Dakota one year to attend the sturgis bike ralley as per
usual and the trailer had such stiff suspension that the airplane
epenage behind the turtle teck totally collapsed after a few too many
chicago beltway speed bumps. Most had to do with the weight of the
wings folded and bouncing on stiff suspensions. I finally built a real
fox trailer and made the same trip a couple years later in dead of
winter and had no problems but i agree with dave that taking a wing off
to tuck in an enclosed is the way to go. Just be sure to brace
everything regardless. You never know what obsticals are in the road.
Dave wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> I have trailered Kitfoxes on flatbeds before.Wings folded and nose
> first on trailer and wing braces on front of spars.
> Just strapped down the main gear and tailwheel same as trailering
> anything really .
> Just make sure it does not move. I don't think i ever went over 50 mph.
>
> A note , you can remove one wing and fold the other and fit it into a
> enclosed trailer. 8 foot x 24 footer. The wing will fit bewteen the
> mail wheels on the floor of trailer as well.
> Kitfox Folder is just under 8 feet adn with both wings might not fit
> in a 8 foot wide trailer.
>
> I have a friend that has a avid trailer in SW Ontario that might loan
> it out and it would surely fit some Kitfoxes.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:56 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Looking for a kitfox trailer
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>>
>> My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I
>> need a trailer. I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't
>> find one that she'll fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They
>> make car haulers that will work but they're a bit spendy and they
>> seem like overkill for a 600lb airplane. It occurs to me that a boat
>> trailer would be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive on the
>> used market. Anyone ever convert a boat trailer or something similar
>> to cary a kitfox?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed Kitfox Videos on Google |
Very cool... Noticed your airspeed indicator registered right around
40...................I've been plagued for years with my fox on why i
have such a high stall speed.
Takeoffs with alot of wt i've started using a trick from an old pilot by
pulling up quickly on flaperons after tail is up. That gets me up into
ground effect lickity split. But landings on a short field or pasture
or river bottom can be really tricky when i land at about 42 stall
speed? Just seems a bit high when book and so many others get 32?
Jared
Dave wrote:
> Gary -- wow Great Movies !!
>
> I found them here
> http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=walsh+kitfox&hl=en
> <http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=walsh+kitfox&hl=en>
>
> You are quite a pilot !!
> Got any take off videos ?
>
> Did you see the ones i did last week ?
> 3 planes flying here http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/coffeebreak.wmv
>
> Dave
>
> PS you want ot go for breakfast flyin this weekend ? A few others
> are talking about Reeces corner again near Sarnia. It a grass strip
> but you could land at Sarnia and I could pick you up and take you in
> if you like . A few grass runways not gonna kill your floats. My
> amphibs had over 1000 takesoffs and landing on grass but there is
> wear to show for all that .:)
> PS did i tell you that aerocets land nice on grass with gear up ? :)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kitfoxjunky <mailto:kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:52 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Videos on Google
>
>
> I purchased a new digital still camera. It does short full motion
> video clips too. I dropped a few of these onto Google Video. Go
> to Google, select the more option and pick video. If you type
> Kitfox as the search criteria...you will see them..and a few that
> others have created. Quality is not the greatest, as the Google
> streaming video degrades them a bit. You may find them
> interesting if you are new to the list and thinking maybe the
> Kitfox is the plane for you, or if you just like seeing a Kitfox
> fly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gary Walsh
> KF IV Anphib 912S
> C-GOOT
> www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
>
> do not archive
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Hey. Thanks for the trailer offers guys. Where are you guys located? I'm at 35A
(Laurens, SC).
-Luis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67141#67141
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Crud in my fuel |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
> Big mistake.....same problems, way more money. Take it for what it is worth.
Just my input.
I figured as much. I guess was just depressed when I wrote that. I edited that
line out on the forum soon after I wrote it but I guess you guys on email don't
get the edited version. :-)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67143#67143
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
I've had that unpleasant experience in "transition" during the high-speed taxi
phase of flight testing. You can wind up pointed the other way very quickly. Since
then, i've done wheel landings, some form of which aren't really unusual
in my model 2 given its tendency to full-mush rather than full-stall on landing.
For me, the key in transition with a wheeler is to plant the tailwheel before
the rudder loses authority and after the airplane quits wanting to fly. Oh .
. .and make sure the nose is pointed straight down the runway at that exact
instant! ;-)
In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fox5flyer@i-star.com
writes:
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are short,
so I can only guess on how many landings.
I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer. Out here
in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said that.
Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on the
KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down from a
wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse
blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge concern, on pavement...
well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly
with all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a wheeler.
But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I just spoke with my instructor about wheel landings, and he said that
we will get to that when I'm more advanced in my training. He said that
the examiner will not ask me to demonstrate this technique. So I will
wait until I'm told that I'm ready for it.
That being said, here is the word of Edward S. Downs, in his book "The
Kitfox Pilot's Guide":
"Crosswind landings can be accomplished with the long-standing
techniques of using aileron into the wind and opposite rudder to
maintain runway alignment. The crosswind limit of a Kitfox, any model
or series, is 15 knots. A 15 knot crosswind can be adequately handled
with a full stall landing, THE RECOMMENDED TECHNIQUE" (my emphasis).
Later on, he mentions wheel landings, but warns "one can run into
trouble when lowering the tail. The vertical tail has less airspeed
when being lowered after a wheel landing than it does when making a
full stall landing. This lower airspeed (actually, ground speed by the
time the tail is being lowered) results in less directional control
coupled with airflow interference from the fuselage. In short, control
can be lost while the tail is being lowered."
I won't quote any further so as to not step on any copyright laws, but
you get the drift, no pun intended. : )....crosswind, drift....oh, me,
oh,my....
Back to my instructor's comments: "when you lower the wing on the
upwind side, you are inducing adverse yaw which counteracts the
weathervaning effects of the wind on the side of the fuselage"
Actually, those were my words back to him when he asked me: "Why do you
lower the wing on the upwind side, and if you answer 'to keep the wind
from raising the wing', I'm gonna slap you". When I gave him the right
answer, he said "I could kiss you right on the lips".....thank God this
was a phone conversation. : )
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 07:50 PM, Dave wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> I am not familiar with the checkout that you are getting but I would
> like an instructor to be able to teach me as much as possible on every
> flight and with indepth training on the different takeoffs and
> landings that you will have to do sometimes and at the most
> in-opportune times. Practice might not make perfect but it will
> certainly be an attribute both you and your plane when put in many
> different scenarios.
> eg short field take off and landing with 75 foot trees at both ends
> of 1200 foot strips.
> - soft field and even some mild off field or at least grass runways.
> - forced approaches
> - slow flight, clean and with various flaps at near stall speed eg if
> you stall at 35 IAS then fly at 38 IAS and be able to show that you
> have positive control.
> - and sure wheel landings as well as being able to land in one wheel
> and run straight down the runway on one main only.
>
> I might seem a bit critical but when you need to know it it good the
> know that you can do it and is a great confidence builder.
>
> Dave
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
That's a good one, Bill!
Actually, I did do a wheel landing one day inadvertently...I was
landing solo and didn't "bury the hatchet" (as my instructor calls
getting the stick back in your gut), and it went along on the mains for
awhile before I woke up to the fact.
Lynn
do not archive
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 07:18 AM, wwillyard@aol.com wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Carrying that briefcase will give you a head start on your wheel
> landing technique.
>
> Bill W.
>
>
> >....you guessed it...the briefcase was turned the long way in the
> seat and blocked the stick.
<image.tiff>
>
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Thanks, Deke...yup, I'm gonna get to the 'wheelers', but it'll be when
my instructor says so.
Lynn
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 07:56 AM, Fox5flyer wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>
> Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
> difficult
> at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled,
> spring, or
> bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
> someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really
> need
> to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until
> you get
> the hang of it.
> They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's
> gusty
> and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt
> only.
> Deke
> S5 in NE Michigan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06)
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili |
Hop Flyin (10/15/06)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I understand, Dave. Apparently my instructor has that on the schedule,
but not right now. See my later comments.
Lynn
do not archive
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:32 AM, Dave wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Lynn,
>
> Pretty hard to master crosswind landings without being able to do
> wheel landings.
>
> Like I said in last mail, learn all aspects of anything that can be
> put in front of you.
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Watvliet, MI - Chili Hop Flyin (10/15/06)
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Where and when will this "marching band" festival happen? I'll be glad
> to go there, if the weather clears up and I can get the 'ride done and
> approved. From the sounds of things weather-wise, I need to get some
> ski training done as well as the wheel landings that some people are
> strongly suggesting. I'm gonna check with my instructor this morning
> about the "wheelers", and I'm gonna also check Earl/Ed? Downs book "How
> to fly your Kitfox" to recall what he said about landings. I seem to
> recall that he said three-pointers only.
>
> lynn
> do not archive
> On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers"
>> <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>> Bill W. sez .... Sorry to hear this Richard, I was looking forward
>>> to it weather permitting.
>>> Also sorry we could not get together at the Jenison airport as well.
>>> I don't know which flight instructor you talked with, but one in
>>> particular really likes the sound of my 912 on departure.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Bill W.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Weve not managed to push back this first blast of winter.
>> Hopefully there will be a long fall after this cold wave.
>>
>> Yes Bill, that's the one.....he liked the sight, AND the sound of
>> your Fox.
>>
>> Lynn, you may want to drop in with your Jabaru sound. (though it may
>> not be audible over the marching band. Spotters are posted all over
>> the state... ?where will he go first? )
>> --------------
>> Well you guys... at least you're all flying.
>> I know we'll find an opportunity to get together one of these days.
>> ......
>> Opps, correction on previous message - Jenison/Riverview is WEST of
>> G.R.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> --------
>> Richard in SW Michigan
>> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66942#66942
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Thanks for your comments, Dave. Sounds like you and Ed Downs are on the
same wavelength.
Lynn
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:45 AM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
>
>
> Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
> difficult
> at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled,
> spring, or
> bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
> someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really
> need
> to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until
> you get
> the hang of it.
> They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's
> gusty
> and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt
> only.
> Deke
> S5 in NE Michigan
>
>
> I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights
> are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
>
> I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3
> pointer. Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
>
> I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he
> said that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at
> least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
>
> The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down
> from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is
> due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this
> become a huge concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you
> go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
>
> So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
> wheeler. But not me.
>
> Just another opinion....!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I have done that, and it worked very well for me. I have pictures I
could email if you'd like.
Lynn
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:56 AM, wingnut wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need
> a trailer. I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find
> one that she'll fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make
> car haulers that will work but they're a bit spendy and they seem like
> overkill for a 600lb airplane. It occurs to me that a boat trailer
> would be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive on the used
> market. Anyone ever convert a boat trailer or something similar to
> cary a kitfox?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
Dave:=0A=0AIf you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane wil
l not immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and
the nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough
rudder authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to SAF
ELY align the plane with the wind. This may imply a diagonal or perpendicu
lar landing which, in most cases could not be safely or legally performed.
=0A=0AAs a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not instrumen
t rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This implies that
, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility. Both my plane
and myself have a limitation. The same applies to tail dragger pilots and
wheel landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and you can't perform whee
l landings, there are certain wind conditions that you need to avoid to ins
ure you can perform a safe landing, that you would not need to avoid if you
can perform a wheel landing. If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in
a Kitfox, it is a pilot limitation but not a plane limitation. Kitfox are
very capable of handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I use
d to own. Refering to the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago,
"The Compleat Taildragger Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger
pilot that can't perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) ta
idragger pilot. I
may be wrong but this has been my experience.=0A=0AJose=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----
- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Aerobatics@aol.com" <Aerobatics@aol.com>
=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:45:0
6 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings=0A=0A=0A On a 3 pointer, yo
u go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.=0A =0ASo
on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a wheele
r. But not me.=0A =0AJust another opinion....!=0A =0ADave=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A
=========================0A
==================0A=0A
Message 29
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
Dear Lowell:
I would say that you have taken on quite a project, but then you
are one of those people who does that with style and grace, so here goes
with some more personal and airplane information:
My occupation is that of video engineer, and formerly part time
CFI. I have owned one other aircraft, a Piper Tri-Pacer-150, which I
owned for 15 years during the period that I was working on my advanced
flight ratings.
My Kitfox is a type 5 Safari, which makes it a tail dragger with
the full span wings. It's N number is N24ZM, and it was built in 1997
by the Melnik family of Pinecrest Florida. It won awards at both Oshkosh
and Sun and Fun. I would not feel comfortable quoting performance specs
yet, as I have not really tried to measure them carefully enough to
quote, and would want to do so in the most accurate manner that I can,
so will delay that for now.
I am currently making some small changes to its landing gear,
replacing the main gear with a rifle drilled Grove unit, and the tail
wheel with an 8inch pneumatic Maule. So when I get through with that
project I will do a weight and balance and include that in the specs.
Thanks for your efforts in our behalf, Duane Rueb
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Member List
Attached is the latest update of the list of members and what they are
flying etc.
I have had suggestions that we include occupations to round out the
names.
Also it has been suggested that we include builders as very few builders
have responded to be included on the list. For me, and my understanding
of
the fleet, I would like to see empty wts. and maybe some performance
numbers, i.e., climb and cruise. This could get big, but in my mind
the
bigger it is the more useful it will be to those building and thinking
of
building or buying. I was at Show and Shine last Saturday and next to
my
airplane, I posted an Idaho Division of Aeronotics map with dots on all
the
airports the group has flown to with some thumbnail pictures and that
developed a lot of interest. Two guys called me later that evening
interested in Kitfox - and this from a Hot Rod show with just a few
airplanes for interest.
If it is desired by a significant part of the group without some
convincing
negative feelings, I would be happy over the next few days - weeks to
also
cull out the e-mail addresses from those responding and add them too.
Lowell
Message 30
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| Subject: | Wheel landings Clip from Ed downs book |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Hi guys,
Wheel landing are mentioned in the file I have from Ed Down's book.
I did not read where any "THE RECOMMENDED TECHNIQUE" was put in that book
copy that I have here.
Here is a picture of the page I read.
http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/downs.jpg
Now that being said, Wheel landings you might have to do at some point and
maybe even on on flight test day ?
Just my thoughts.
Maybe I will try to get some videos done again in next while of some Wheel
landings to show you guys.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Thanks for your comments, Dave. Sounds like you and Ed Downs are on the
same wavelength.
Lynn
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:45 AM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
>
>
> Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
> difficult
> at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring,
> or
> bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
> someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really need
> to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you
> get
> the hang of it.
> They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty
> and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.
> Deke
> S5 in NE Michigan
>
>
> I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are
> short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
>
> I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer. Out
> here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
>
> I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he
> said that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at
> least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
>
> The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down from
> a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the
> fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge
> concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to
> a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
>
> So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
> wheeler. But not me.
>
> Just another opinion....!
>
> Dave
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rkstevens@verizon.net>
The Custon KitFox trailer is located in Manassas, VA. Closest airport (KHEF).
My Eagle is a Warrenton, VA (W66)
I'm about a 15 min drive from KHEF. If flying up here, be aware of the ADIZ restrictions.
KHEF is *inside* the ADIZ, so if you're unfamiliar with the routine,
check out the AOPA info or let me know and I'll fill you in on the arrival
procedures.
Ron
KitFox 6 - NSI Turbo CAP 140
Christen Eagle II
>From: wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>Date: 2006/10/11 Wed AM 10:26:55 CDT
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
>Hey. Thanks for the trailer offers guys. Where are you guys located? I'm at 35A
(Laurens, SC).
>
>-Luis
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67141#67141
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Malpass" <malpass-architect@comcast.net>
I have a really good system, actually done by the original builder. I made
enhancments that make loading/unloading easier, and fueling very easy. I
have added a 20 gallon mini-drum with a dot approved 13 gallon per minute
pump. I couldnt be happier with mine as I transport to the airport every
time I fly.
Bill - Kitfox III N 793 RK
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Looking for a kitfox trailer
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a
> trailer. I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one
> that she'll fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car
> haulers that will work but they're a bit spendy and they seem like
> overkill for a 600lb airplane. It occurs to me that a boat trailer would
> be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive on the used market. Anyone
> ever convert a boat trailer or something similar to cary a kitfox?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard D'Archangel" <rdarchangel@earthlink.net>
I converted my 5' by 8', 1,500 GVW utility trailer to haul my Classic
4. I did the typical tail first method. First I bought a 3"x3"x11'
square steel tube to replace the existing tongue. I built a platform on
the tongue to hold the tail wheel and a winch, and built ramps for the
main and tail wheels. My fox has tubular gear so the trailer bed is
just wide enough. You might have to make an extension to the deck if
you have spring gear. The thing that concerned me most was the high CG
coupled with the relatively narrow trailer axle. I didn't want the
thing to tip over on a turn or from a wind gust. To lower the CG I put
320 lb of concrete mix (4 80 lb. bags) on the trailer bed. This also
allowed me to adjust the for and aft CG. The trailer weighs 500 lb., my
C4 is 640 lb. dry so with the concrete the whole load is 1480 lb.
The reason I did the conversion was to get my plane from my hanger to my
shop for some modifications, a 30 mile trip. I like having it in
reserve in case I get stuck somewhere and can't fly the plane home.
Dick
wingnut wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
>My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a trailer.
I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one that she'll
fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car haulers that will work
but they're a bit spendy and they seem like overkill for a 600lb airplane. It
occurs to me that a boat trailer would be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive
on the used market. Anyone ever convert a boat trailer or something
similar to cary a kitfox?
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Classes of aircraft |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 10, 2006, at 2:10 PM, kurt schrader wrote:
> I just called the UN. They are moving this to Top
> Priority! You should have it all resolved by 2108!
Gee, thanks buddy! I know now that my grand-grand-grand son will be
able to fly without a helmet! What a relief!
:-) Michel
do not archive
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:45 PM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> During the transition of the tail coming down from a wheeler, the
> rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse
> blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge
> concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a
> plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
Yes, I have also wondered why a wheel landing was better in crosswind.
I thought that a two wheels (the weather main one, and the tail, in a
sideslip configuration) would be best. Mind you, I haven't tried it yet
and I am still a novice; keen to learn from more experienced pilots.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:53 PM, jareds wrote:
> I've been plagued for years with my fox on why i have such a high
> stall speed.
Me too, Jared. I start to feel the stall at 48 MPH, and begins to go
down at 45. But when checking with the GPS, my instrument shows always
an excess of about 5 MPH, even with the static port installed where
Skystar recommended it. Then I think: Okay, it's called Indicated Air
Speed. As long as I know where, on the instrument, I stall; who cares
about the real speed?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
Well said Jose. My sentiments exactly.
Deke
do not archive
Dave:
If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not
immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and the
nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough
rudder authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to
SAFELY align the plane with the wind. This may imply a diagonal or
perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be safely or
legally performed.
As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not instrument
rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This implies
that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility. Both my
plane and myself have a limitation. The same applies to tail dragger
pilots and wheel landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and you
can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind conditions that you
need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe landing, that you would
not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel landing. If a pilot cannot
perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a pilot limitation but not a
plane limitation. Kitfox are very capable of handling cross wind, and
that includes Model II which I used to own. Refering to the title of an
excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot", by
Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't perform a wheel
landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot. I may be wrong
but this has been my experience.
Jose
----- Original Message ----
From: "Aerobatics@aol.com" <Aerobatics@aol.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3
wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
In a message dated 10/11/2006 10:59:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
Dave:
If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not
immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and the nose
will
point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough rudder
authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to SAFELY align
the
plane with the wind. This may imply a diagonal or perpendicular landing which,
in most cases could not be safely or legally performed.
As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not instrument
rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This implies that, by
ALL
means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility. Both my plane and myself
have a limitation. The same applies to tail dragger pilots and wheel
landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and you can't perform wheel landings,
there are certain wind conditions that you need to avoid to insure you can
perform a safe landing, that you would not need to avoid if you can perform a
wheel landing. If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a
pilot limitation but not a plane limitation. Kitfox are very capable of
handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I used to own. Refering
to
the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat Taildragger
Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't perform a
wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot. I may be
wrong but this has been my experience.
Jose
Lets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully disagree strongly.
Yes, I can do a wheel landing. one wheel touch and goes and so on.... fun
stuff... And do so, but I feel that a full stall 3 point is a much better
choice on a KF2. A much better choice. It is not for all planes of course, Like
a DC3, P51....
The comment "car" was meant to say the plane goes from a flying machine ,
totally dependent on air for control to 3 wheel car with a steerable tail wheel
for directional control. At slow speeds, the rudder is almost useless and in
a crosswind the plane naturally wants to weather vane. Its that rubber tail
wheel contact that prevents it. It the tail is up, and speed is slow.... you
simply have a loss of control during the transition. Been there.
You suggest that you cant 3 point in a crosswind? Again I disagree, have a
very short runway and do it all the time, under control cross wind et all.
Like I said before, hundreds of times.
Lastly, you use more runway.
I dont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail dragger by
David Robinson sold through ASA. I have not read it in a while. It
generally agrees with what I have just said.... it also says occasionally in "gusty
conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT ....
Anyways, it works for you...... safely you must be doing it right, for
you... but for me, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger landings and the
above has worked for me, except once..... I did a wheeler, in a cross wind
on pavement.... giving a very high time pilot a ride in my KF ..... he flew
them all from B17 etc and to this day flies a Vagabond, and I got a lesson
on why I should use the 3 point... and have since :-) To this day I dont
know how I missed that runway light!
This site is to share ideas and help our flying brothers and sisters. I
would suggest to anyone that is looking to fly a TG is to speak to an instructor
and get training...
Best,
Dave
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Wheel landings Clip from Ed downs book |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I have the 2004-1 Revision, and I quoted from pages 105-106...I shoulda
said that before. And remember, I was the one who upper-cased the
"recommended technique," which appears on p.105. My book says Copyright
2002, but is Rev. 2004-1.
Not according to my flight instructor (the part about doing on flight
test day), who,again, said he would teach me when he thinks I'm
ready....we'll see what the examiner says when I next talk to him. It
would seem to me that the examiner might be restricted in what he can
ask you to do given the capabilities of the airplane, wouldn't he? And
if you can land the plane in 15 kt x-winds, and this is the limit of
the plane, why would he not have to accept that performance from the
pilot? Not trying to be contrary here, just playing devil's advocate.
Lynn
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 12:28 PM, Dave wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Hi guys,
> Wheel landing are mentioned in the file I have from Ed Down's book.
>
> I did not read where any "THE RECOMMENDED TECHNIQUE" was put in that
> book copy that I have here.
> Here is a picture of the page I read.
> http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/downs.jpg
>
> Now that being said, Wheel landings you might have to do at some
> point and maybe even on on flight test day ?
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Maybe I will try to get some videos done again in next while of some
> Wheel landings to show you guys.
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Thanks for your comments, Dave. Sounds like you and Ed Downs are on the
> same wavelength.
>
> Lynn
> On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:45 AM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
>> difficult
>> at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled,
>> spring, or
>> bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
>> someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really
>> need
>> to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until
>> you get
>> the hang of it.
>> They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's
>> gusty
>> and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt
>> only.
>> Deke
>> S5 in NE Michigan
>>
>>
>> I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights
>> are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
>>
>> I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3
>> pointer. Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
>>
>> I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know
>> he said that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft,
>> at least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
>>
>> The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down
>> from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is
>> due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this
>> become a huge concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you
>> go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
>>
>> So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try
>> a wheeler. But not me.
>>
>> Just another opinion....!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Mine stalls at 45, 40, and 35 mph, clean, 1/2, and full flaps
respectively, IAS. In my case, 1/2 is 10, and full is 20.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 02:04 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:53 PM, jareds wrote:
>> I've been plagued for years with my fox on why i have such a high
>> stall speed.
>
> Me too, Jared. I start to feel the stall at 48 MPH, and begins to go
> down at 45. But when checking with the GPS, my instrument shows always
> an excess of about 5 MPH, even with the static port installed where
> Skystar recommended it. Then I think: Okay, it's called Indicated Air
> Speed. As long as I know where, on the instrument, I stall; who cares
> about the real speed?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Ron: Northern VA is about 400miles for me. I'll keep you in mind though if I don't
come up with anything else.
Lynn: Some pics of your conversion would be awsome. I figured that would be the
most cost effective way to go. Also, this way, I finally have an excuse for acquiring
that mig welder :-).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67186#67186
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 11, 2006, at 9:07 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Mine stalls at 45, 40, and 35 mph, clean, 1/2, and full flaps
> respectively, IAS. In my case, 1/2 is 10, and full is 20.
Wow! What a big difference with flaps, Lynn! What is your max. flaps
angle setting? Mine is only 10 degrees.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
> "when you lower the wing on the upwind side, you are inducing adverse yaw which
counteracts the weathervaning effects of the wind on the side of the fuselage"
I thought it was to induce a slip into the wind to counteract the wind pushing
the plane off the center of the runway...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67190#67190
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Wheel Landings - Lynn - more input |
That's a pretty good source ............. I just loaned my copy out... I
would go with that than us internet experts...LOL
Bottom line, get training, build your proficiency and keep current in your
particular airplane.... oh oh... and have fun!
Dave Patrick
KF 2
In a message dated 10/11/2006 10:47:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
lynnmatt@jps.net writes:
I just spoke with my instructor about wheel landings, and he said that
we will get to that when I'm more advanced in my training. He said that
the examiner will not ask me to demonstrate this technique. So I will
wait until I'm told that I'm ready for it.
That being said, here is the word of Edward S. Downs, in his book "The
Kitfox Pilot's Guide":
"Crosswind landings can be accomplished with the long-standing
techniques of using aileron into the wind and opposite rudder to
maintain runway alignment. The crosswind limit of a Kitfox, any model
or series, is 15 knots. A 15 knot crosswind can be adequately handled
with a full stall landing, THE RECOMMENDED TECHNIQUE" (my emphasis).
Later on, he mentions wheel landings, but warns "one can run into
trouble when lowering the tail. The vertical tail has less airspeed
when being lowered after a wheel landing than it does when making a
full stall landing. This lower airspeed (actually, ground speed by the
time the tail is being lowered) results in less directional control
coupled with airflow interference from the fuselage. In short, control
can be lost while the tail is being lowered."
I won't quote any further so as to not step on any copyright laws, but
you get the drift, no pun intended. : )....crosswind, drift....oh, me,
oh,my....
Back to my instructor's comments: "when you lower the wing on the
upwind side, you are inducing adverse yaw which counteracts the
weathervaning effects of the wind on the side of the fuselage"
Actually, those were my words back to him when he asked me: "Why do you
lower the wing on the upwind side, and if you answer 'to keep the wind
from raising the wing', I'm gonna slap you". When I gave him the right
answer, he said "I could kiss you right on the lips".....thank God this
was a phone conversation. : )
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
Got my vote........ on your quote "IMHO a tail dragger pilot that
can't perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger
pilot. I may be wrong but this has been my experience.
Jose"
That being said, if your only destination becomes beyond your personal
limitation due to never being trained for example a wheel landing then
what do you do ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Jose M. Toro
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot
Dave:
If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not
immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and the
nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough
rudder authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to
SAFELY align the plane with the wind. This may imply a diagonal or
perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be safely or
legally performed.
As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not instrument
rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This implies
that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility. Both my
plane and myself have a limitation. The same applies to tail dragger
pilots and wheel landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and you
can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind conditions that you
need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe landing, that you would
not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel landing. If a pilot cannot
perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a pilot limitation but not a
plane limitation. Kitfox are very capable of handling cross wind, and
that includes Model II which I used to own. Refering to the title of an
excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot", by
Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't perform a wheel
landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot. I may be wrong
but this has been my experience.
Jose
----- Original Message ----
From: "Aerobatics@aol.com" <Aerobatics@aol.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3
wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
ht="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://forcom/contribution" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/c===========
=====
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
Dave:=0A=0AI agree on that fact fact, that we disagree. I also respect you
r opinion. You have done plenty of safe three pointers.=0A=0ADo you agree
that there is absolutely nothing wrong or unsafe about doing wheel landings
in a Kitfox II? =0A=0AI want to share a story. I once landed a single sea
ter, 350 pounds Rans S4 TD in a quartering, 25 knots wind from the right.
That happened in a very long and wide pavement runway. I did a full stop
in the runway. As soon as the airplane stopped, the wind raised the right
wing and started blowing the airplane backwards. In order to be able to ta
xi the airplane to the terminal, I had to apply power and taxi it rolling o
n the right main wheel. To be able to stop, two person had to run and hold
the wings. For the take off, two persons hold the wing until I was able
to start the take off roll. I did it diagonally, aligned with the wind. T
his was safe only because it happenned on a long and wide runway. In a sma
ll runway, results most likely would have been different... However, it is
a fact that a person that is not able to do a wheel landing would not be a
ble to taxi the airplane in one wheel. On that occurrence, it was the only
possible way to taxi that airplane
to the terminal, and I had to go there for fuel. =0A=0AWith good brakes,
and low wind, you can also taxi the airplane with the tail wheel raised, in
cluding making 90 degree turns. You can also do a full stop with the wheel
still raised. Beside the fact that this is to show off, and could be dang
erous if done near obstacles, it also shows that you can control the plane.
By no means, I would attempt to do this in an airplane I'm not very famil
iar with.=0A=0AJose=0ALets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully d
isagree strongly. =0A =0AYes, I can do a wheel landing. one wheel touch an
d goes and so on.... fun stuff... And do so, but I feel that a full stall
3 point is a much better choice on a KF2. A much better choice. It is not
for all planes of course, Like a DC3, P51.... =0A =0AThe comment "car" was
meant to say the plane goes from a flying machine , totally dependent on ai
r for control to 3 wheel car with a steerable tail wheel for directional co
ntrol. At slow speeds, the rudder is almost useless and in a crosswind the
plane naturally wants to weather vane. Its that rubber tail wheel contact t
hat prevents it. It the tail is up, and speed is slow.... you simply have
a loss of control during the transition. Been there. =0A =0AYou suggest t
hat you cant 3 point in a crosswind? Again I disagree, have a very short r
unway and do it all the time, under control cross wind et all. Like I sai
d before, hundreds of times.=0A =0ALastly, you use more runway. =0A =0AI d
ont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail dragger by Dav
id Robinson sold through ASA. I have not read it in a while. It general
ly agrees with what I have just said.... it also says occasionally in "gust
y conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT .... =0A =0AAnyways, it work
s for you...... safely you must be doing it right, for you... but for me
, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger landings and the above has wor
ked for me, except once..... I did a wheeler, in a cross wind on pavement
.... giving a very high time pilot a ride in my KF ..... he flew them all
from B17 etc and to this day flies a Vagabond, and I got a lesson on why
I should use the 3 point... and have since :-) To this day I dont know ho
w I missed that runway light!=0A =0AThis site is to share ideas and help ou
r flying brothers and sisters. I would suggest to anyone that is looking t
o fly a TG is to speak to an instructor and get training...=0A =0ABest,=0A
=========================0A
======0A=0A
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
This thread can go on for ever. I personally like the wheel landing on
most airplanes, especially on grass with a springy landing gear. BUT
one thing I can gaurantee you that is true and NOT debatable. When
going from cruise to parked in the hanger, every tailwheel airplane must
transition to the 3 point attitude and be below stall speed when doing
it. So pick your time for this transition. During touch down or after
touchdown. Crosswind techniques are doable for both systems equally.
You have to fly them all the way to the hanger, don't forget that. One
old Ag pilot who taught me to fly said you better know how to wheel land
these Ag planes, because sooner or later your going to have to land with
the tanks FULL and the gear on these things won't take a full stall
landing at full gross, and that's the case with other heavy tailwheel
airplanes, but not the Kitfox. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aerobatics@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot
In a message dated 10/11/2006 10:59:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
Dave:
If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will
not immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and
the nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have
enough rudder authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough
runway to SAFELY align the plane with the wind. This may imply a
diagonal or perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be
safely or legally performed.
As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not
instrument rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This
implies that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility.
Both my plane and myself have a limitation. The same applies to tail
dragger pilots and wheel landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and
you can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind conditions that
you need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe landing, that you
would not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel landing. If a pilot
cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a pilot limitation but
not a plane limitation. Kitfox are very capable of handling cross wind,
and that includes Model II which I used to own. Refering to the title
of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat Taildragger
Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't
perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot.
I may be wrong but this has been my experience.
Jose
Lets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully disagree strongly.
Yes, I can do a wheel landing. one wheel touch and goes and so on....
fun stuff... And do so, but I feel that a full stall 3 point is a much
better choice on a KF2. A much better choice. It is not for all planes
of course, Like a DC3, P51....
The comment "car" was meant to say the plane goes from a flying
machine , totally dependent on air for control to 3 wheel car with a
steerable tail wheel for directional control. At slow speeds, the rudder
is almost useless and in a crosswind the plane naturally wants to
weather vane. Its that rubber tail wheel contact that prevents it. It
the tail is up, and speed is slow.... you simply have a loss of control
during the transition. Been there.
You suggest that you cant 3 point in a crosswind? Again I disagree,
have a very short runway and do it all the time, under control cross
wind et all. Like I said before, hundreds of times.
Lastly, you use more runway.
I dont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail
dragger by David Robinson sold through ASA. I have not read it in a
while. It generally agrees with what I have just said.... it also says
occasionally in "gusty conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT ....
Anyways, it works for you...... safely you must be doing it right,
for you... but for me, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger
landings and the above has worked for me, except once..... I did a
wheeler, in a cross wind on pavement.... giving a very high time pilot a
ride in my KF ..... he flew them all from B17 etc and to this day
flies a Vagabond, and I got a lesson on why I should use the 3 point...
and have since :-) To this day I dont know how I missed that runway
light!
This site is to share ideas and help our flying brothers and sisters.
I would suggest to anyone that is looking to fly a TG is to speak to an
instructor and get training...
Best,
Dave
Message 48
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| Subject: | two point landings |
I am a low time pilot and like most learned the 3 point landings in my
training. The airport I fly from is very narrow with poor visibility.
When winter comes and the snow gets deep there is little room for error.
I never liked the three point on this strip so I decided to try the
wheel landings. It didn't take long and was pretty easy to learn. I
usually come in under partial power and once the mains touch give it
some forward stick and cut the power. Its important when you touch down
to plant the mains and hold them until the tail is ready to drop. I
never learned this from an instructor and it may not be the best choice
for others but worked for me.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a kitfox trailer |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Hope you find a solution to your Kitfox woes.
Regarding the trailer, If it is a once of occasional use, any trailer will
suffice. Talk in the past on the list seems to recommend that a trailer for
a Kitfox be rated for close to the empty weight - a boat trailer sounds
about right. A car hauler rated at a couple of tons will have absolutely no
suspension for a light weight load. All the bouncing will be on the
airplane suspension and every pot hole will be transmitted straigt to the
airplane. You will need extra care suspending the tail wheel area after the
weight of the folded wings are there also. Back in the discussion some
suggested possible G loads way up there.
I felt this once after a ride with a buddy who drove an 18 wheeler. We
dropped off the trailer and drove to get something to eat in the tractor.
It was like riding on solid rubber wheels unsprung over railroad tracks -
not fun. Of course he had the air supsension seat.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Looking for a kitfox trailer
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> My fox is grounded and the nearest mechanic is 50 miles away so I need a
> trailer. I thought of renting an enclosed trailer but I can't find one
> that she'll fit in so I'm looking at buying something. They make car
> haulers that will work but they're a bit spendy and they seem like
> overkill for a 600lb airplane. It occurs to me that a boat trailer would
> be plenty strong and they're very inexpensive on the used market. Anyone
> ever convert a boat trailer or something similar to cary a kitfox?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67120#67120
>
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
I also have a kitfox 2 and do both I would say more wheel landings now
more than 3 point since i am flying off of pavement now its no different
than taking off bring tail up and then fly off . to land set mains on
and bring tail down now .
Fly safe fly low fly slow
John Peerry
Kitfox 2 718PD
----- Original Message -----
From: Aerobatics@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled,
spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught
by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't
really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until
you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's
gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt
only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights
are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer.
Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he
said that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at
least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down
from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due
to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a
huge concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a
plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
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| Subject: | Re: landings with Ed Downs |
where can I get one of this book by Ed Downs I am a self taught pilot
starting with Quicksilver's and working my way up to other air plow type UL, s
now I am getting ready for a sport pilot check ride mal
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
No one has mentioned brakes to keep the a/c straight. Doesn't matter if it's
a wheeler or stalled ldg, when the a/c slows it'll try to turn into wind.
The beauty of the wheeler when correctly done is to make good wheel contact
hence good braking control.
From: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
I've had that unpleasant experience in "transition" during the high-speed
taxi phase of flight testing. You can wind up pointed the other way very
quickly. Since then, i've done wheel landings, some form of which aren't
really unusual in my model 2 given its tendency to full-mush rather than
full-stall on landing.
For me, the key in transition with a wheeler is to plant the tailwheel
before the rudder loses authority and after the airplane quits wanting to
fly. Oh . . .and make sure the nose is pointed straight down the runway at
that exact instant! ;-)
In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are
short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
I personally feel I can
land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer. Out here in the plains the
wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said
that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on
the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down from a
wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the
fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge
concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to
a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help.
_________________________________________________________________
Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: two point landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
Dee,
Guess what? the procedure you are using: "once the mains touch give it some
forward stick and cut the power. Its important when you touch down to plant
the mains and hold them until the tail is ready to drop." is EXACTLY what the
correct procedure is - that is what an instructor should be teaching -
however you arrived at doing it - take some pleasure in the fact that you are
doing it correctly.
Dave S
Do Not Archive
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 6:28 pm, Dee Young wrote:
> I am a low time pilot and like most learned the 3 point landings in my
> training. The airport I fly from is very narrow with poor visibility. When
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Every time i have someone else in the plane tasked with watching the GPS
speed ... they end up white knuckled on the .."oh sh@#$ handle"
Landings always freak out new riders. I think my IAS is prob a bit high
also but still runs much faster at landing than it should be. Also
takes a bit more runway than it should but just not sure why my fox is
different than others. May need to check the weight again but last
check it was around 630lbs so well within everyone elses posted wts??
Still flyin though but some close calls occasionally and would be nice
to have some more lee way.
Michel Verheughe wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:53 PM, jareds wrote:
>
>> I've been plagued for years with my fox on why i have such a high
>> stall speed.
>
>
> Me too, Jared. I start to feel the stall at 48 MPH, and begins to go
> down at 45. But when checking with the GPS, my instrument shows always
> an excess of about 5 MPH, even with the static port installed where
> Skystar recommended it. Then I think: Okay, it's called Indicated Air
> Speed. As long as I know where, on the instrument, I stall; who cares
> about the real speed?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Funny thing the stall speeds. I have been doing the v speeds in the VW
Speedster and can stall between -5 kts and 75 depending on power and angle
of attack. Just a little power and I can stall at 45kts, full power goes
to a negative number and I quit before I overloaded my oil breather due to
rear location. I can get an accelerated stall up to 75 kts without power.
Perhaps the angle of the engine to airframe varies between installations.
Flaps? Oh yea more testing. Still messing with it at 21 hours total time.
Ron NB Ore
>From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:07:46 -0400
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>Mine stalls at 45, 40, and 35 mph, clean, 1/2, and full flaps respectively,
>IAS. In my case, 1/2 is 10, and full is 20.
>
>Lynn
>Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
>
>On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 02:04 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>>
>>On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:53 PM, jareds wrote:
>>>I've been plagued for years with my fox on why i have such a high stall
>>>speed.
>>
>>Me too, Jared. I start to feel the stall at 48 MPH, and begins to go down
>>at 45. But when checking with the GPS, my instrument shows always an
>>excess of about 5 MPH, even with the static port installed where Skystar
>>recommended it. Then I think: Okay, it's called Indicated Air Speed. As
>>long as I know where, on the instrument, I stall; who cares about the real
>>speed?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Michel
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
SearchYour way, your world, right now!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
I have to chime in on Dave's side on this one. I don't do Wheel landings
unless a BFR instructor wants to see one.
My only experience with major cross wind was at Jackpot, NV where six of
us - five Kitfox IVs and a Rans S6 Coyote all landed three point in what was
estimated at over 25 mph at 90 degrees. The Rans Pilot signs my BFR - I
trust his estimate. The six of us have over 200 hours flying together with
probably a hundred fifty landings X 6 on everything and up to 7100 ft.
elev. I have never seen a wheel landing in the group nor a ground loop.
Even though I have some issues with Ed Downs, I think he is right on with
the three point issue - in a "Kitfox", other airplanes may vary. With gusty
conditions fine, but gusty doesn't always mean cross winds or vise versa.
I appreciate the opinions on the list...., but then, I guess I can live with
not being a complete taildragger pilot.
Lowell 825 hours Model IV-1200
----- Original Message -----
From: <Aerobatics@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot
>
> In a message dated 10/11/2006 10:59:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Dave:
>
> If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not
> immediate transition into a car. The wings will still be flying and the
> nose will
> point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough rudder
> authority. This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to SAFELY
> align the
> plane with the wind. This may imply a diagonal or perpendicular landing
> which,
> in most cases could not be safely or legally performed.
>
> As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations. I'm not instrument
> rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR. This implies
> that, by ALL
> means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility. Both my plane and
> myself
> have a limitation. The same applies to tail dragger pilots and wheel
> landings. If you are a taildragger pilot, and you can't perform wheel
> landings,
> there are certain wind conditions that you need to avoid to insure you
> can
> perform a safe landing, that you would not need to avoid if you can
> perform a
> wheel landing. If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it
> is a
> pilot limitation but not a plane limitation. Kitfox are very capable of
> handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I used to own.
> Refering to
> the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat
> Taildragger
> Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't
> perform a
> wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot. I may be
> wrong but this has been my experience.
>
> Jose
>
>
> Lets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully disagree strongly.
>
> Yes, I can do a wheel landing. one wheel touch and goes and so on....
> fun
> stuff... And do so, but I feel that a full stall 3 point is a much
> better
> choice on a KF2. A much better choice. It is not for all planes of
> course, Like
> a DC3, P51....
>
> The comment "car" was meant to say the plane goes from a flying machine ,
> totally dependent on air for control to 3 wheel car with a steerable tail
> wheel
> for directional control. At slow speeds, the rudder is almost useless and
> in
> a crosswind the plane naturally wants to weather vane. Its that rubber
> tail
> wheel contact that prevents it. It the tail is up, and speed is slow....
> you
> simply have a loss of control during the transition. Been there.
>
> You suggest that you cant 3 point in a crosswind? Again I disagree, have
> a
> very short runway and do it all the time, under control cross wind et
> all.
> Like I said before, hundreds of times.
>
> Lastly, you use more runway.
>
> I dont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail dragger
> by
> David Robinson sold through ASA. I have not read it in a while. It
> generally agrees with what I have just said.... it also says occasionally
> in "gusty
> conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT ....
>
> Anyways, it works for you...... safely you must be doing it right, for
> you... but for me, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger landings
> and the
> above has worked for me, except once..... I did a wheeler, in a cross
> wind
> on pavement.... giving a very high time pilot a ride in my KF ..... he
> flew
> them all from B17 etc and to this day flies a Vagabond, and I got a
> lesson
> on why I should use the 3 point... and have since :-) To this day I dont
> know how I missed that runway light!
>
> This site is to share ideas and help our flying brothers and sisters. I
> would suggest to anyone that is looking to fly a TG is to speak to an
> instructor
> and get training...
>
> Best,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: wheel landings |
Excellent discussion from all sorts of angles.
My instructer stressed wheelies especially when gusts are down the
runway.
His point was that in a three point stall attitude into a gusty wind and
right before touchdown, you could balloon up too high over the runway,
at a high angle of attack and then if the gust stops there you are
without enough time to add power to arrest the sink rate. Pushing
forward on the stick would be a poor gamble also.
If the wind is that strong, your landing roll shouldn't be that long
either. Just what I was taught.
Good input, all
Tom
ps
I landed in Salina Kansas this past summer in 28 gusting to 32 right
down the runway.
Did a wheel landing and it just kinda stopped and I lowered the tail.
The the short crosswind taxi to the ramp was done as much into the wind
as possible. I didn't follow the painted taxi centerlines but angled
across the short taxiway onto a huge apron where I immediately pointed
her back into the wind.. The linemen had to come out to grab the struts
so I could let go of the brakes to get out. Funny how I didn't havta p
no mo when I finally got tied down.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aerobatics@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wheel landings
In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fox5flyer@i-star.com writes:
Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings. They really aren't
difficult
at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled,
spring, or
bungie gear. They just take a certain technique that is best taught
by
someone who is good at it. The person who teaches you doesn't
really need
to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until
you get
the hang of it.
They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's
gusty
and/or with crosswinds. I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt
only.
Deke
S5 in NE Michigan
I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights
are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.
I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer.
Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.
I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he
said that. Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at
least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.
The problem is simple. During the transition of the tail coming down
from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due
to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a
huge concern, on pavement... well yikes. On a 3 pointer, you go from a
plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.
So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a
wheeler. But not me.
Just another opinion....!
Dave
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