---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/14/06: 52 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Don Smythe) 2. 04:33 AM - Re: bungie cords (Fox5flyer) 3. 04:47 AM - Re: bungie cords (Dave) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Brian Rodgers) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: bungie cords (Lynn Matteson) 6. 06:28 AM - Re: Stall speed (Jerry Liles) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: bungie cords (kurt schrader) 8. 06:43 AM - Forum overload (Rexster) 9. 06:59 AM - Re: Forum overload (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 10. 07:00 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (kurt schrader) 11. 07:00 AM - Re: Stall speed (Dave) 12. 07:02 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Lowell Fitt) 13. 07:02 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 14. 07:08 AM - Fly in Sunday Breakfast possible (Dave) 15. 07:43 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 16. 07:55 AM - Re: Forum overload (Noel Loveys) 17. 08:02 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 18. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: bungie cords (alnanarthur) 19. 08:02 AM - Re: Forum overload (Dave and Diane) 20. 08:15 AM - Re: Forum overload (alnanarthur) 21. 08:16 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Brian Rodgers) 22. 08:28 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Don Smythe) 23. 08:28 AM - Forum overload (Rexster) 24. 09:32 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Guy Buchanan) 25. 09:41 AM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Randy Daughenbaugh) 26. 09:54 AM - Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan) 27. 10:35 AM - Aileron Differential (John) 28. 10:35 AM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Don Smythe) 29. 11:47 AM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave) 30. 11:47 AM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave) 31. 11:49 AM - Re: Aileron Differential (Dave) 32. 12:07 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Michel Verheughe) 33. 12:13 PM - Re: Getting tail wheel up. (Michel Verheughe) 34. 12:23 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Michel Verheughe) 35. 02:01 PM - Re: Aileron Differential (jdmcbean) 36. 02:04 PM - Re: Aileron Differential (Michel Verheughe) 37. 02:47 PM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Don Smythe) 38. 02:58 PM - Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave) 39. 03:54 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Lowell Fitt) 40. 03:56 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Lowell Fitt) 41. 04:13 PM - Re: Aileron Differential (GypsyBeeInnkeepers) 42. 04:20 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Lowell Fitt) 43. 07:39 PM - Re: Aileron Differential (John) 44. 07:42 PM - Re: 582 W/ choped muffler ? (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 45. 07:44 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (david yeamans) 46. 09:32 PM - Re: Aileron Differential (Rexster) 47. 09:50 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 48. 09:54 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 49. 10:01 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 50. 10:02 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 51. 10:04 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) 52. 10:10 PM - Re: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again (Noel Loveys) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:59 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Lowell, I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff you're talking about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was working in the Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". This program required all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified with a long trail of paperwork You could just about track back a piece of metal to the mine where the ore came from. We discussed many times that the old Skystar had used a couple different tank manufactures and I never did get a good warm feeling as to exactly what materials were used and when. Bottom line, my 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or paperwork to tell me what they are made of.. Who knows, they might be made of the pre 85 boat stuff. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of the talk is > in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have > The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass tanks were > made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models built > after ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:44 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Other than a little "dust" we didn't get any accumulation here Lynn, fortunately. I'm neither mentally, nor physically prepared to deal with that crap yet, but at some point I guess I'd best start thinking about it. The longer it holds off the longer I can still fly out of my strip. Deke NE Michigan Mikado International Airport do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:26 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I've got some dandy's saved up for this winter. This'll be my first > winter of (hopefully) flying my bird, and I'm betting it's a long > windy, snowy one. The trouble is, it seems to have started early around > here, as we just set or tied State (Michigan) records for earliest/most > snowfall. Folks in the Upper Peninsula got 20" yesterday, with > Kalamazoo getting 6.5", and that's just 65 miles west of me.....wahhhh, > I want to take my checkride! > > Lynn > do not archive > On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 09:13 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > Hope you saved some good ones for the weather around here. > > > > Noel > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> Lynn Matteson > >> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:31 PM > >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords > >> > >> > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >> > >> I only cussed once, and that was when I wrote out the check for the > >> Grove gear. I've saved all the rest of the cussin' for the damned > >> weather around here! > >> > >> Lynn > >> On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 05:44 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > >> > >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > >> > >>> > >>> I can see every one enjoys putting the bungees on as much > >> as I did. > >>> I've > >>> tried olive oil it was ok but the best thing was a piece of > >> rope put > >>> through > >>> the eye that I could use the reem on. > >>> > >>> Any one with a dictionary of four letter expletives will > >> find a good > >>> number > >>> I devised while fitting bungees. > >>> > >>> Noel > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:20 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" NO Ski Flying Deke ? We got about an inch or so here the last few days but 100 miles east 10 to 20 inches I hear. Ski flying is some of best flying you can get next to float flying and you get the extra performance boost from the cold dense air. ! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Other than a little "dust" we didn't get any accumulation here Lynn, > fortunately. I'm neither mentally, nor physically prepared to deal with > that crap yet, but at some point I guess I'd best start thinking about it. > The longer it holds off the longer I can still fly out of my strip. > Deke > NE Michigan > Mikado International Airport > > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> I've got some dandy's saved up for this winter. This'll be my first >> winter of (hopefully) flying my bird, and I'm betting it's a long >> windy, snowy one. The trouble is, it seems to have started early around >> here, as we just set or tied State (Michigan) records for earliest/most >> snowfall. Folks in the Upper Peninsula got 20" yesterday, with >> Kalamazoo getting 6.5", and that's just 65 miles west of me.....wahhhh, >> I want to take my checkride! >> >> Lynn >> do not archive >> On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 09:13 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> > >> > Hope you saved some good ones for the weather around here. >> > >> > Noel >> > >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> >> Lynn Matteson >> >> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:31 PM >> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords >> >> >> >> >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> >> >> I only cussed once, and that was when I wrote out the check for the >> >> Grove gear. I've saved all the rest of the cussin' for the damned >> >> weather around here! >> >> >> >> Lynn >> >> On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 05:44 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: >> >> >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I can see every one enjoys putting the bungees on as much >> >> as I did. >> >>> I've >> >>> tried olive oil it was ok but the best thing was a piece of >> >> rope put >> >>> through >> >>> the eye that I could use the reem on. >> >>> >> >>> Any one with a dictionary of four letter expletives will >> >> find a good >> >>> number >> >>> I devised while fitting bungees. >> >>> >> >>> Noel >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:09 AM PST US From: "Brian Rodgers" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" Noel, you might note that GM and Ford have intentionally designed some of their vehicles to run on E85. Don't know what their fuel tanks are made from, but I'd bet that the car companies are WAY ahead of most aeroplane builders with regards to this issue. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:19 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on the road today with > composite or plastic gas tanks. I wonder what will happen to them when they > have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so. > > I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is just a corrosive > diversion to get a few more votes. > > Noel > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > Lowell Fitt > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:15 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of > > the talk is in > > the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have deteriated > > in some cases > > and more seriously, in some cases residues, possibly from the > > affected tanks > > have resulted in engine damage. > > > > The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass > > tanks were made > > prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models > > built after > > that date. > > > > > > For those interested do a Google search on Ethanol and > > Fiberglass fuel > > tanks. > > > > It is comforting that we Kitfox folks are not the only ones > > concerned about > > this issue and there is info out there. > > > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michel Verheughe" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:34 PM > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > > > > > On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > > >> In my opinion, no. > > > > > > Thank you, Don. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. > > I mentioned > > > once again PRC because Bill, on the Jabiru list, couldn't > > understand what > > > the problem was with ethanol. My initial posting there was > > to say, in an > > > answer to: is the Jabiru fuel pump and carby gaskets > > ethanol resistant?; > > > - "I can always replace hoses and gaskets but what about > > fiberglass > > > tanks?" > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Yeah, same here, Deke, we got just enough to make footprints stand out for about an hour, then gone. But it was coming down so hard as to make viewing across the road almost impossible. Hey, I just noticed that you have achieved "International"status at your home airport...does that mean I need to get endorsed for Class B airspace before expecting to land there? : ) Lynn do not archive On Saturday, October 14, 2006, at 07:33 AM, Fox5flyer wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Other than a little "dust" we didn't get any accumulation here Lynn, > fortunately. I'm neither mentally, nor physically prepared to deal > with > that crap yet, but at some point I guess I'd best start thinking about > it. > The longer it holds off the longer I can still fly out of my strip. > Deke > NE Michigan > Mikado International Airport > > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:24 AM PST US From: Jerry Liles Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles The original aileron/flap mixer control system of the Fox I, II, and III and all Avids till the Magnum had only minor differential with 0 flaps that went to neutral at about 10deg and became reversed differential past that. At large flap deployments, beyond 20 deg, it became possible for the down deployed aileron to stall. This effectively results in control reversal and usually occured in the pattern. Even if the flapperon didn't stall control response became pretty poor, dangerously so with gusting winds. Not a good thing at low altitude and low speed. For this reason Dean Wilson recommended that flaps be limited to 15deg max. Denny allowed some of the early model Foxes to go to 20+, I think maybe 25deg. This did result in some accidents in early versions. If you have a FOX I, II, or III I think 20 deg is the absolute max you should ever use and you would be happier with the airplanes manners if you limit it to 10 to 15 deg. That gives a useful increase in lift without a degradation in control response. I know Tootie Mae flies beautifully with 10deg. I don't use flaps to increase drag, that's what a slip is for. Jerry Liles Dave wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > Michel, > > The Model 1, 2 and 3 used totally different flapperon mixer > controls and you have no differential . There is a possiblity of > aileron reversal "I think" on the PRE IV models. But maybe > someone else could comment. > > I have a model IV and i have over 30 down deflection. I know how to > use flaps and they are an excellent attribute to my Model IV with > over 20 degree down on Take offs . > > That being said , over 20 degrees is pretty well useless on landings. > > I am open for comments but please don't tell me they are unsafe this > way . Full flaps over 20 degrees are totally safe if you know how to > use them . > > > Dave > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:26 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Oh wait. Are those float attachment points on my Fox? I been using them for the snowplow. ;-) Ya got customs and ag there too Deke? :-) No guys. Nothing stops Deke. I think he just isn't winterized yet this year. Kurt S. --- Fox5flyer wrote: > Other than a little "dust" we didn't get any > accumulation here Lynn, > fortunately. I'm neither mentally, nor physically > prepared to deal with > that crap yet, but at some point I guess I'd best > start thinking about it. > The longer it holds off the longer I can still fly > out of my strip. > Deke > NE Michigan > Mikado International Airport > > do not archive __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:06 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: Forum overload Hi Guys and Gals, Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think so. I find that if I leave my computer for a day that my screen is FILLED with forum emails. As mu ch as I love staying informed and up to date, a large portion of these e mails are personal conversations between two people that have nothing to do with the rest of us. Every listing has the personal email address of the lister. I have often used these to send a message to that person wi thout making everybody have to read through it. I understand that it doe sn't take all day to delete messages, but it's not often easy to tell wh at's for all of us and what's just a personal conversation by just the s ubject. Just an idea. What do the rest of you guys think? Rex Phelps in Michigan (Model 3 with a 912UL) -- Lynn Matteson wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Yeah, same here, Deke, we got just enough to make footprints stand out for about an hour, then gone. But it was coming down so hard as to make viewing across the road almost impossible. Hey, I just noticed that you have achieved "International"status at your home airport...does that mean I need to get endorsed for Class B airspace before expecting to land there? : ) Lynn do not archive On Saturday, October 14, 2006, at 07:33 AM, Fox5flyer wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Other than a little "dust" we didn't get any accumulation here Lynn, > fortunately. I'm neither mentally, nor physically prepared to deal > with > that crap yet, but at some point I guess I'd best start thinking about > it. > The longer it holds off the longer I can still fly out of my strip. > Deke > NE Michigan > Mikado International Airport > > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: bungie cords ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Hi Guys and Gals,

   Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think so. I find th at if I leave my computer for a day that my screen is FILLED with forum emails. As much as I love staying informed and up to date, a large porti on of these emails are personal conversations between two people that ha ve nothing to do with the rest of us. Every listing has the personal ema il address of the lister. I have often used these to send a message to t hat person without making everybody have to read through it. I understan d that it doesn't take all day to delete messages, but it's not often ea sy to tell what's for all of us and what's just a personal conversation by just the subject.

   Just an idea. What do the rest of you guys think?

Rex Phelps in Michigan (Model 3 with a 912UL)
-- Lynn Ma tteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-L ist message posted by: Lynn Matteson <l ynnmatt@jps.net>

Yeah, same here, Deke, we  got just enough to make footprints s tand out 
for about an hour, then  gone. But it was coming down so hard& nbsp;as to make 
viewing across the roa d almost impossible.
Hey, I just noticed&nbs p;that you have achieved "International"status  at 
your home airport...does that mean  I need to get endorsed for Class B&nb sp;
airspace before expecting to land there?   : )

Lynn
do not archive
On  Saturday, October 14, 2006, at 07:33   ;AM, Fox5flyer wrote:

> --> Kitfox-List  message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i -star.com>
>
> Other than a little&nb sp;"dust" we didn't get any accumulation h ere Lynn,
> fortunately.  I'm neither&nbs p;mentally, nor physically prepared to deal&nbs p;
> with
> that crap yet, but  ;at some point I guess I'd best start  thinking about 
> it.
> The l onger it holds off the longer I can&n bsp;still fly out of my strip.
> Dek e
> NE Michigan
> Mikado International&n bsp;Airport
>
> do not archive
>
> ; ----- Original Message -----
> From:&nb sp;"Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To:&n bsp;<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday,& nbsp;October 14, 2006 12:26 AM
> Subject: ======================== ========================     - The Kitfox-List Email Foru ist utilities such as the Subscriptions pa ======================== ======================== sp;     - NEW MATRONICS WEB  ======================== ========================        - NEW MATRONICS  ======================== ======================== sp;    - List Contribution Web S nbsp;           & nbsp;          -Matt&n ======================== ======================== ==
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:27 AM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Forum overload what do I think ?at first my responce was to be please lets NOT have 75 responcess to this statement. but to late for that. the do not archive is a real good option not to many people use eather. I agree with rex. I often respond off line the only one I ever had come back is from the man that wantes to barrow a trailer I responded and got some spam filter I was requested to apply for. AND I have a trailer he can use here in michigan but was put off by the request. yet I need to filter throu 14 e mails on the topis for days. mal ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:07 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Consumers' Reports ran a test on it and they don't seem to back it either. Haven't finished reading it yet, but they don't see a gain. Some say it takes more energy to make than it puts out. But I would trade Gov subsidies there instead of tobacco and maybe we don't need to pay farmers not to work too? Even then, there isn't as much to meet the demand for fuel as some think. Brazil went to it big time, then backed off. Still available everywhere though. I don't know what they use for tanks and my Portuguese is too poor to ask. I'll see if I can fine someone who speaks English there and can find out tank materials. Kurt S. Do not archive --- Noel Loveys wrote: > The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on > the road today with > composite or plastic gas tanks. I wonder what will > happen to them when they > have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so. > > I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is > just a corrosive diversion to get a few more votes. > > Noel __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:58 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Jerry, Thanks that is bascially what I thought on the I,II, and III models but the IV I find work well for extra lift over 20 degrees adn up to 30 or more. I will try to measure this weekend what I actually get. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:Stall speed > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles > > The original aileron/flap mixer control system of the Fox I, II, and III > and all Avids till the Magnum had only minor differential with 0 flaps > that went to neutral at about 10deg and became reversed differential past > that. At large flap deployments, beyond 20 deg, it became possible for > the down deployed aileron to stall. This effectively results in control > reversal and usually occured in the pattern. Even if the flapperon didn't > stall control response became pretty poor, dangerously so with gusting > winds. Not a good thing at low altitude and low speed. For this reason > Dean Wilson recommended that flaps be limited to 15deg max. Denny > allowed some of the early model Foxes to go to 20+, I think maybe 25deg. > This did result in some accidents in early versions. If you have a FOX I, > II, or III I think 20 deg is the absolute max you should ever use and you > would be happier with the airplanes manners if you limit it to 10 to 15 > deg. That gives a useful increase in lift without a degradation in > control response. I know Tootie Mae flies beautifully with 10deg. I don't > use flaps to increase drag, that's what a slip is for. > > Jerry Liles > > Dave wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" >> >> Michel, >> >> The Model 1, 2 and 3 used totally different flapperon mixer controls >> and you have no differential . There is a possiblity of aileron >> reversal "I think" on the PRE IV models. But maybe someone else >> could comment. >> >> I have a model IV and i have over 30 down deflection. I know how to >> use flaps and they are an excellent attribute to my Model IV with over >> 20 degree down on Take offs . >> >> That being said , over 20 degrees is pretty well useless on landings. >> >> I am open for comments but please don't tell me they are unsafe this way >> . Full flaps over 20 degrees are totally safe if you know how to use them >> . >> >> >> Dave >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:37 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Don, I agree whole heartedly. My tanks are an interesting story. I took delivery of the kit in March 1993. Of course the first things were the fuselage controlls and fitting all the fuselate attachments: rudder, horizontal stab and elevator. Then I got around to doing the wings, left wing first. That was December 2003. The wing tank was a right wing tank with a left wing tank top, in other words the washout twist was backward. I sent the tank back for an exchange - so I now had wing tanks from two production era's nine months apart. It was the early tank that began leaking at 500 hours, in Idaho, after four days soaking in AV Gas. There is definitely, in my mind, differences in wing batches. Whether the difference has to do with materials or workmanship, I have no idea. I am running an experiment with vinyl ester resin and Kreem as a fuel barrior. I tried to boost the alcohol content of the local fuel - 6% - as we speak, but couldn't get the ethanol to mix, so I am using 100% ethanol in one series and vinyl ester in the other. I have the samples under a bell jar so I can simulate altitude changes that would cause a solid structure to degass at lower air pressures - if there are pin holes in the tanks there is air in them. The samples are held under the liquids in test tubes so I can observe degassing bubbles if present. I take them up to a simulated 14,000 ft daily and observe for any degassing bubbles. So far nothing in any of the samples, but they only have been submerged since Oct 1. I will rerport to the list the first sign of failure. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:07 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Lowell, > I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff you're talking > about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was working in the > Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". This program > required all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified with a long > trail of paperwork You could just about track back a piece of metal to > the mine where the ore came from. We discussed many times that the old > Skystar had used a couple different tank manufactures and I never did get > a good warm feeling as to exactly what materials were used and when. > Bottom line, my 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or paperwork to tell me > what they are made of.. Who knows, they might be made of the pre 85 boat > stuff. > > Don Smythe > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of the talk is >> in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have > >> The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass tanks were >> made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models built >> after > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:52 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Don: As far as I've heard there is only one composite filler that is used on fuel tanks. That is a Vinyl-ester filler. I've been told the vinyl is part Epoxy and part Urethane. They say that's the filler that the new in ground tanks at service stations is made of. I still find it hard to believe that any organic compound will be impervious to Ethanol. That stuff even feasts on Aluminium. Until these tanks have been in the ground for a number of years filled with EA85 I will be leery of it's use. It's not that I think the tanks will come apart in flight, just that the goop from the fillers might gum up the works in my engine. Also there is the issue of carburettor icing. I know some who say that use of MOGAS doesn't increase the chance of icing. Unfortunately I've heard different from high time commercial pilots. Ethanol won't help that situation. There is a fellow on the Avid list who has been flying an R582 for years with the 10% fuel in California with no problems. He says he premixed all his gas. That may be the answer to protecting the gas tanks. If the ethanol has more affinity to oil in the fuel than it has to the organic compounds in the fillers it may leave the fillers alone. The oil in that case is acting like a sacrificial anode of a sort. That fellow has recently installed a Jab ( wish I had one) but he is still adding a little top lube to his gas. It seems to be working. Time will tell all. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Don Smythe > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:37 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Lowell, > I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff > you're talking > about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was > working in the > Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". This > program required > all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified with a long > trail of > paperwork You could just about track back a piece of metal > to the mine > where the ore came from. We discussed many times that the > old Skystar had > used a couple different tank manufactures and I never did get > a good warm > feeling as to exactly what materials were used and when. > Bottom line, my > 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or paperwork to tell me > what they are made > of.. Who knows, they might be made of the pre 85 boat stuff. > > Don Smythe > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority > of the talk is > > in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have > > > The good news seems to indicate that the affected > fiberglass tanks were > > made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have > models built > > after > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:38 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fly in Sunday Breakfast possible --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" There has been a few that have shown interest in meeting for breakfast tomorrow at Reece's Corner near Sarnia , Ontario. If anyone wants to fly in tomorrow let me know and I will post some info. IT a grass strip runs N S I think about 17- 35 approx . Great little spot to get a good breakfast at diner about 100 feet from Runway. WX permitting of course and it been windy her alll week. our TAF for today as follows but Sunday looking more promising so far... ( hate to say that or it will be a blizzard) Dave Reported: October 14, 2006 at 7:39 AM Valid From: October 14, 2006 at 8:00 AM Valid Until: October 15, 2006 at 8:00 AM a.. From 8:00 AM: Wind 260 (W) at 15 gusting to 25 kt, Visibility greater than 6 sm, Overcast 5000' (VFR) a.. Temporarily from 8:00 AM to 12:00 PM: Visibility 2 sm, Light Rain Showers Snow, Broken 1500', Overcast 3000' (IFR) a.. From 2:00 PM: Wind 270 (W) at 15 gusting to 25 kt, Visibility greater than 6 sm, Broken 6000' (VFR) a.. Between 6:00 PM and 8:00 PM becoming: Wind 260 (W) at 10 kt, Scattered 6000' (VFR) a.. Next Forecast 2:00 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:31 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" You must be kidding! Car manufacturers ahead? Sure they're grounded! If the tank on a Pontiac or a focus disintegrates or cracks in three years you have the car pulled into the dealership where they will install a new one. Very cheap because of the mass production and the "that will do" engineering not to mention the ease of dropping an auto tank and shoving a new one in. Think you can change out a wing tank in your fox in an hour?? You can't be doing that with planes. For one point your inspection schedule should include inspecting the tank at regular intervals. Many planes have that on the list of scheduled maintenance. That way the tank will have to be changed out before any problems start. The other thing is cars are not restricted to operation by weight. That is half the engineering that goes into designing a plane. Can you imagine trying to get off the ground in your 'Fox complete with air conditioning, power controls, electric seats, warmers on everything you may have to touch, EGR pumps, and catalytic converters and let's not forget the little light to tell you your gas cap isn't tight. I think it is more than possible to design a quickly changeable wing tank for any small plane. When it is designed/built there is no doubt I'd consider installing a couple.... Just in case they contaminate my present alcohol free fuel supply. The real answer in both the auto and aviation worlds is in the design of new engines that don't burn gasoline. Imagine a hybrid aeroplane engine that ran on coal oil and sunlight! Car manufacturers are ahead of car manufacturers a few years ago. When I was a kid an old clunker was maybe five years old. Now they are just getting out of warranty. My '90 Miata looks as good as the day it came out of the factory, back in 89, with the exception of a couple of paint chips. Yes there have been advancements in the auto world. Multi port EFI on a common high pressure rail is one. ABS is another but everyone in this part of the world will have problems with their ABS sooner or later. We get so much snow and there is so much salt put on out roads the poor ABS connections really don't stand a chance of lasting too long. Hmmmmmmm ABS on the kitfox???? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Brian Rodgers > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:04 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" > > Noel, you might note that GM and Ford have intentionally > designed some of > their vehicles to run on E85. > Don't know what their fuel tanks are made from, but I'd bet > that the car > companies are WAY ahead of most aeroplane builders with > regards to this > issue. > Brian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:19 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on the road > today with > > composite or plastic gas tanks. I wonder what will happen > to them when > they > > have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so. > > > > I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is just a corrosive > > diversion to get a few more votes. > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > > Lowell Fitt > > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:15 PM > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - > once again > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > > > > > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of > > > the talk is in > > > the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have deteriated > > > in some cases > > > and more seriously, in some cases residues, possibly from the > > > affected tanks > > > have resulted in engine damage. > > > > > > The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass > > > tanks were made > > > prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models > > > built after > > > that date. > > > > > > > > > For those interested do a Google search on Ethanol and > > > Fiberglass fuel > > > tanks. > > > > > > It is comforting that we Kitfox folks are not the only ones > > > concerned about > > > this issue and there is info out there. > > > > > > Lowell > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Michel Verheughe" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:34 PM > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - > once again > > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > > > >> In my opinion, no. > > > > > > > > Thank you, Don. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. > > > I mentioned > > > > once again PRC because Bill, on the Jabiru list, couldn't > > > understand what > > > > the problem was with ethanol. My initial posting there was > > > to say, in an > > > > answer to: is the Jabiru fuel pump and carby gaskets > > > ethanol resistant?; > > > > - "I can always replace hoses and gaskets but what about > > > fiberglass > > > > tanks?" > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:29 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Forum overload I just download the E-Mail headers and decide which topics I want to follow, the rest get deleted off my POP server. I know it can look daunting when you see two hundred + E-Mails in your in box but I can go through them pretty quick. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolmbru@aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Forum overload what do I think ?at first my responce was to be please lets NOT have 75 responcess to this statement. but to late for that. the do not archive is a real good option not to many people use eather. I agree with rex. I often respond off line the only one I ever had come back is from the man that wantes to barrow a trailer I responded and got some spam filter I was requested to apply for. AND I have a trailer he can use here in michigan but was put off by the request. yet I need to filter throu 14 e mails on the topis for days. mal ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:29 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Can you also introduce bending and flexing and vibration that you get in a flying airplane into your experiment? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:32 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > Don, I agree whole heartedly. My tanks are an interesting > story. I took > delivery of the kit in March 1993. Of course the first > things were the > fuselage controlls and fitting all the fuselate attachments: rudder, > horizontal stab and elevator. Then I got around to doing the > wings, left > wing first. That was December 2003. The wing tank was a > right wing tank > with a left wing tank top, in other words the washout twist > was backward. I > sent the tank back for an exchange - so I now had wing tanks from two > production era's nine months apart. > > It was the early tank that began leaking at 500 hours, in > Idaho, after four > days soaking in AV Gas. There is definitely, in my mind, > differences in > wing batches. Whether the difference has to do with materials or > workmanship, I have no idea. > > I am running an experiment with vinyl ester resin and Kreem as a fuel > barrior. I tried to boost the alcohol content of the local > fuel - 6% - as > we speak, but couldn't get the ethanol to mix, so I am using > 100% ethanol in > one series and vinyl ester in the other. I have the samples > under a bell > jar so I can simulate altitude changes that would cause a > solid structure to > degass at lower air pressures - if there are pin holes in the > tanks there is > air in them. The samples are held under the liquids in test > tubes so I can > observe degassing bubbles if present. I take them up to a > simulated 14,000 > ft daily and observe for any degassing bubbles. So far > nothing in any of > the samples, but they only have been submerged since Oct 1. > > I will rerport to the list the first sign of failure. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Smythe" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:07 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > > > Lowell, > > I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff > you're talking > > about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was > working in the > > Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". This program > > required all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified > with a long > > trail of paperwork You could just about track back a piece > of metal to > > the mine where the ore came from. We discussed many times > that the old > > Skystar had used a couple different tank manufactures and I > never did get > > a good warm feeling as to exactly what materials were used > and when. > > Bottom line, my 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or > paperwork to tell me > > what they are made of.. Who knows, they might be made of > the pre 85 boat > > stuff. > > > > Don Smythe > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority > of the talk is > >> in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have > > > >> The good news seems to indicate that the affected > fiberglass tanks were > >> made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have > models built > >> after > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:38 AM PST US From: alnanarthur Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: bungie cords Hi All, I can change the bungie cords on my Series 5 by myself in about 30 min. each. I use zip ties and a cargo tie-down strap (the kind that when you pull it tight, the spring loaded friction lever holds it tight). First, mark the old bungie across the top with a marking pen and remove it. 2. Lay out the old beside the new and transfer the marks to the new one, marking all the way around the new cord. Now with the new bungie cord, 3. make a loop around the gear and 4. about a foot up on the free end form a "free end loop" and secure it with a zip tie. 5. Take the cargo tie-down over the fuselage carry-through tube and hook it to the "free end loop" . 6. With the cargo tie down, pull up on the "free end loop" till the first mark on the new bungie is on top, then secure the gear loop tightly with one or two zip ties. 7. Release and unhook the cargo tie down and cut the zip tie on the "free end loop" and make another loop around the gear. 8. Repeat 3 thru 7 till all gear loops are on and secure the final end loop of the new bungie on the post. 9. "Carefully" cut all the zip ties holding the individual gear loops. I don't even break a sweat. Hope this makes sense. Allan Arthur Kitfox 5, N40AA Rotax 912s, Warpdrive 3 blade Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:55 AM PST US From: Dave and Diane Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Forum overload --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane Rex & crewe, Glad you brought this up. Actually I have been thinking about it for a while and was wondering if I was the only person beginning to be concerned. Here is my opinion. The List Administrator has repeatedly posted the list rules (I think that may be a kind and gentle reminder to coax us into keeping this thing within bounds so it will stay running) - I don't know that I would call them rules exactly - rules is a bit too governmentish for me, but they are practical and common sense guidelines designed to keep the overhead of electronic storage and personal exchanges within bounds so that the list will be able to perform its function of technical and motivational information exchange for builders and pilots of Kitfox aircraft. If we get careless and add to the overhead too much, there is a chance that either the cost of running the list will go up for the administrators and consequently affect their ability to sponsor it; or that the list will drift too far from its original purpose and we will start to lose a contingent of the builders and pilots of Kitfox aircraft. (no, I don't work for the administrators; but I have seen what happens with overloaded computer systems and it ain't much different than overloading or misbalancing an airplane except that is is not quite as hard on one's physical person). Personally I think that aviation folks, in particular those with enough motivation to complete and fly experimental aircraft are a select few and a cut above the rest of humanity. I also believe that along with being in that category, we are a bunch who understand common sense and can figure what we need to do to keep what we like. I believe a little introspection and common sense will help us keep this forum as a continuing source of technical and motivational information exchange for builders and pilots of Kitfox aircraft. And.... the little "Do Not Archive" thing ... really helps keep the archives organized. Humbly and Sincerely, Dave S St Paul, MN DO NOT ARCHIVE On Saturday 14 October 2006 8:40 am, Rexster wrote: > Hi Guys and Gals, > Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think so. I find that if I leave my > computer for a day that my screen is FILLED with forum emails. As much as I > love staying informed and up to date, a large portion of these emails are > personal conversations between two people that have nothing to do with the > rest of us. Every listing has the personal email address of the lister. I > have often used these to send a message to that person without making > everybody have to read through it. I understand that it doesn't take all > day to delete messages, but it's not often easy to tell what's for all of > us and what's just a personal conversation by just the subject. Just an > idea. What do the rest of you guys think? ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:08 AM PST US From: alnanarthur Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Forum overload --> Kitfox-List message posted by: alnanarthur Yes, and also change "the Subject when you change the subject". Al Arthur On Oct 14, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Rexster wrote: > Hi Guys and Gals, > > Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think so. I find that if I > leave my computer for a day that my screen is FILLED with forum > emails. As much as I love staying informed and up to date, a large > portion of these emails are personal conversations between two > people that have nothing to do with the rest of us. Every listing > has the personal email address of the lister. I have often used > these to send a message to that person without making everybody > have to read through it. I understand that it doesn't take all day > to delete messages, but it's not often easy to tell what's for all > of us and what's just a personal conversation by just the subject. > > Just an idea. What do the rest of you guys think? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:20 AM PST US From: "Brian Rodgers" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" Noel, you seem to be impervious to reason and common sense. If car gas tanks were failing in use, I'd have a very hard time navigating any roadway around here due to all the cars that stopped running. Also, the car companies are not doing "that will do" engineering. Hello? Have you noticed that the car warranty periods have been getting longer and more inclusive than in decades past? Do you think that these companies would be in business very long if they were changing out gas tanks, engines, fuel lines, etc. on every car every couple of years? Think man. BTW, glass is an organic compound and you can find GALLONS of ethanol in every liquor store around the world. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > You must be kidding! > > Car manufacturers ahead? Sure they're grounded! > > If the tank on a Pontiac or a focus disintegrates or cracks in three years > you have the car pulled into the dealership where they will install a new > one. Very cheap because of the mass production and the "that will do" > engineering not to mention the ease of dropping an auto tank and shoving a > new one in. Think you can change out a wing tank in your fox in an hour?? > > You can't be doing that with planes. For one point your inspection schedule > should include inspecting the tank at regular intervals. Many planes have > that on the list of scheduled maintenance. That way the tank will have to > be changed out before any problems start. The other thing is cars are not > restricted to operation by weight. That is half the engineering that goes > into designing a plane. Can you imagine trying to get off the ground in > your 'Fox complete with air conditioning, power controls, electric seats, > warmers on everything you may have to touch, EGR pumps, and catalytic > converters and let's not forget the little light to tell you your gas cap > isn't tight. > > I think it is more than possible to design a quickly changeable wing tank > for any small plane. When it is designed/built there is no doubt I'd > consider installing a couple.... Just in case they contaminate my present > alcohol free fuel supply. > > The real answer in both the auto and aviation worlds is in the design of new > engines that don't burn gasoline. Imagine a hybrid aeroplane engine that > ran on coal oil and sunlight! > > Car manufacturers are ahead of car manufacturers a few years ago. When I > was a kid an old clunker was maybe five years old. Now they are just > getting out of warranty. My '90 Miata looks as good as the day it came out > of the factory, back in 89, with the exception of a couple of paint chips. > Yes there have been advancements in the auto world. Multi port EFI on a > common high pressure rail is one. ABS is another but everyone in this part > of the world will have problems with their ABS sooner or later. We get so > much snow and there is so much salt put on out roads the poor ABS > connections really don't stand a chance of lasting too long. Hmmmmmmm ABS > on the kitfox???? > > Noel > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > Brian Rodgers > > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:04 AM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" > > > > Noel, you might note that GM and Ford have intentionally > > designed some of > > their vehicles to run on E85. > > Don't know what their fuel tanks are made from, but I'd bet > > that the car > > companies are WAY ahead of most aeroplane builders with > > regards to this > > issue. > > Brian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Noel Loveys" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:19 PM > > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > > > > The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on the road > > today with > > > composite or plastic gas tanks. I wonder what will happen > > to them when > > they > > > have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so. > > > > > > I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is just a corrosive > > > diversion to get a few more votes. > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > > > Lowell Fitt > > > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:15 PM > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - > > once again > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > > > > > > > > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of > > > > the talk is in > > > > the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have deteriated > > > > in some cases > > > > and more seriously, in some cases residues, possibly from the > > > > affected tanks > > > > have resulted in engine damage. > > > > > > > > The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass > > > > tanks were made > > > > prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models > > > > built after > > > > that date. > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested do a Google search on Ethanol and > > > > Fiberglass fuel > > > > tanks. > > > > > > > > It is comforting that we Kitfox folks are not the only ones > > > > concerned about > > > > this issue and there is info out there. > > > > > > > > Lowell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michel Verheughe" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:34 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - > > once again > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > > > > >> In my opinion, no. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, Don. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. > > > > I mentioned > > > > > once again PRC because Bill, on the Jabiru list, couldn't > > > > understand what > > > > > the problem was with ethanol. My initial posting there was > > > > to say, in an > > > > > answer to: is the Jabiru fuel pump and carby gaskets > > > > ethanol resistant?; > > > > > - "I can always replace hoses and gaskets but what about > > > > fiberglass > > > > > tanks?" > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:27 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" From: "Noel Loveys" > Don: > > As far as I've heard there is only one composite filler that is used on > fuel > tanks. That is a Vinyl-ester filler. I've been told the Yep, done read that a thousand times on the internet concerning gas station fuel tanks but, back to my one concern, somebody prove to me that my tanks are made of Vinyl-ester. No serial number, no traceable paperwork, nothing from the factory, no quality assurance sign off, just rumors. Don Smythe ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:40 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: Forum overload Noel and the rest, I think we all do that. It's just that even when I go through the top ics I'm interested in, I often find that the conversation has drifted to stuff that has nothing to do with the rest of us (or even Kitfoxes). I' m just saying that we need to ask ourselves before sending a message is, "Should this go out to everybody or just the one person I'm talking to" ? Rex Phelps in Michigan -- "Noel Loveys" wrote: I just download the E-Mail headers and decide which topics I want to fol low, the rest get deleted off my POP server. I know it can look dauntin g when you see two hundred + E-Mails in your in box but I can go through them pretty quick. Noel

Noel and the rest,

   I think we all do that. It's just that even when I go th rough the topics I'm interested in, I often find that the conversation h as drifted to stuff that has nothing to do with the rest of us (or even Kitfoxes). I'm just saying that we need to ask ourselves before sending a message is, "Should this go out to everybody or just the one person I' m talking to"?

Rex Phelps in Michigan

-- "Noel Loveys" <noe lloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I just download the E-Mail headers and decide which topics I want to follow, the rest get deleted off my POP server.  I know it can look daunting when yo u see two hundred + E-Mails in your in box but I can go through them pre tty quick.
 
 

Noel
________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:03 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again At 08:16 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote: >BTW, glass is an organic compound and you can find GALLONS of ethanol in >every liquor store around the world. Brian, it's not the glass, but the resin matrix that has a problem with solvents. I found some definitive information in Professional Boatbuilder. There is a standard, UL1316, to which all underground fiberglass fuel storage tanks in the US are currently being built. (And apparently all underground fuel storage tanks in the US are currently being built of fiberglass.) If the resin you're using, (probably a vinyl-ester based product,) meets UL 1316 you can be reasonably sure it will work with all current auto fuels, and any future fuel anyone might stick in an existing underground storage tank. (Hear that John?) You may be able to use this to obtain a satisfactory interior coating. (I did a quick Google and found nothing.) Interplastic Corporation was mentioned as a possible source for resin. They may also be able to formulate an interior coating, though I'm sure it will be in bulk quantities. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:33 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" By a chemist's definition, glass in inorganic. But you can buy booze in plastic bottles, and it has ethanol in it. Randy ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:05 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan All, Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on my Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or change the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might beg/borrow/buy. Thanks, Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:28 AM PST US From: "John" Subject: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential. I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron control system in a computer program. I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant flight characteristics. I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings. In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim. I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff. So I cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others. It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences. Regards, John Stoner KFIII, 582 Alaska ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:28 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Guy, I have the 3 blade 70" warp (3:1 "C") and have had no problems with performance. Actually, I had a prop strike and it's now a 68" 3 blade (Warp repair). There are many applications using the 3 blade warp and 582 with no problems. Please tell me off list again what you are seeing. I wasn't paying attention before and all shouldn't have to hear it again. Sorry Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > All, > Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and > that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on my > Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or change > the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a > Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might > beg/borrow/buy. > > Thanks, > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:01 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Guy, Before you jump to any prop decisions, call WARP and ask them. I have a 68 " 3 blade from WARP and you saw the video last week ? You could cut 3/4 off each blade IF that is the problem. Can you do a video of a few take offs ? I would think that you should be able to accelerate to 35 to 40 mph within 300 feet max. If you lived near me I would get you over here and I got several props you could experiment with. I would suggest other than yours to try Warp 68" 3 blade , GSC 68 " 3 blade or a IVO medium 70 or 72 " 2 blade. The Ivo will hold up as it a large chord prop with a large mounting flange. The smaller UL props are not advisable to use on 3 to 1 boxes as per IVO . GSC are cheap (maybe 400 or 500$ ) and I know they work well. I find it works about the same as the WARP +/- a bit .. You need me to do a movie of different props on 582 Kitfox ? I have 3 different ones here and if anyone reads this like Tennessee props or Culver props, I would ask if you would like some good coverage on a Kitfox 582 to send me your best prop. I have 2 similar planes to try them on so we can get different results and post them for all to see. If you want bragging rights for your prop -- contact me :) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > All, > Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and > that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on my > Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or change > the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone has a > Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might > beg/borrow/buy. > > Thanks, > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:33 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Don, Did you notice any differances before and after the prop trim ? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Guy, > I have the 3 blade 70" warp (3:1 "C") and have had no problems with > performance. Actually, I had a prop strike and it's now a 68" 3 blade > (Warp repair). There are many applications using the 3 blade warp and 582 > with no problems. Please tell me off list again what you are seeing. I > wasn't paying attention before and all shouldn't have to hear it again. > Sorry > > > Don Smythe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Buchanan" > To: ; > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:53 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >> >> All, >> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and >> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on >> my Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or >> change the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if anyone >> has a Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I might >> beg/borrow/buy. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Guy Buchanan >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:47 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential John., I bet you find it nicer to fly now than before the mod ? Dave <> ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential. I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron control system in a computer program. I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant flight characteristics. I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings. In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim. I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff. So I cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others. It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences. Regards, John Stoner KFIII, 582 Alaska ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:17 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Hei Torgeir, On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:17 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox??? My Kitfox model II > (93 mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks). Interesting. I wonder why they decided for that epoxy resin that was developed mainly for the maritime industry and the "cold molding" method of bounding thin wood ply with the resin. Anyway, we have asked West System if their epoxy was ethanol resistant and they answered "No, but we are working on it." Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:47 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Getting tail wheel up. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:39 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > I.E. a spin is not possible to exit due to high tail inertia. Simply > because there's not enough "tail surface" to cope with such a high > energy. Yes and that's why I opted for the Jabiru in my model 3, Torgeir. A Rotax 912 would have moved my CG too much forward and to compensate it, I would have had to put lead in the tail, something that goes against all logic. Incidentally, when making my Kitfox in the X-Plane flight simulator, I tried to simulate "mass in the tail" to see how it would affect the ground handling and more specially, the ground loop. I did it by creating a fictive fuel tanks (invisible in the simulator, but defined by a x,y,z position and a mass) in the tail. At a later occasion, I met the creator of the simulator and told him that a distribution of the mass at the extremities of the fuselage didn't influence the ground loop. To which he answered: "No, it will rather make the plane less prone to start one, but once started, it will be difficult to stop it. Think of a gyroscope construction!" Indeed, it makes sense. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:53 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Hei Torgeir, On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:17 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox??? My Kitfox model II > (93 mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks). Interesting. I wonder why they decided for that epoxy resin that was developed mainly for the maritime industry and the "cold molding" method of bounding thin wood ply with the resin. Anyway, we have asked West System if their epoxy was ethanol resistant and they answered "No, but we are working on it." Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:13 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential John, The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super Sport. Youll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to convert the Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential John., I bet you find it nicer to fly now than before the mod ? Dave <> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential. I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron control system in a computer program. I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant flight characteristics. I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings. In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim. I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff. So I cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others. It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences. Regards, John Stoner KFIII, 582 Alaska href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:06 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Oct 14, 2006, at 7:35 PM, John wrote: > Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE > differential. I am sorry, John, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain, please? Thank you. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:17 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" None what so ever. Warp said that it would make no difference. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > Don, > > Did you notice any differances before and after the prop trim ? > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Smythe" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" >> >> Guy, >> I have the 3 blade 70" warp (3:1 "C") and have had no problems with >> performance. Actually, I had a prop strike and it's now a 68" 3 blade >> (Warp repair). There are many applications using the 3 blade warp and >> 582 with no problems. Please tell me off list again what you are seeing. >> I wasn't paying attention before and all shouldn't have to hear it again. >> Sorry >> >> >> Don Smythe >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Guy Buchanan" >> To: ; >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:53 PM >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub >> >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >>> >>> All, >>> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and >>> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on >>> my Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or >>> change the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if >>> anyone has a Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I >>> might beg/borrow/buy. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Guy Buchanan >>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:49 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Don , About 45F here today I just was out in plane. Static is now at 5950 6000 on mine was 6050 to 6100 the other day . So Guy's prop being 70 inch should have little effect on anything as long as his rpm is simular ? 6200 would be my preferance and I will likely repitch here soon as the colder weather is getting closer :) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > None what so ever. Warp said that it would make no difference. > > Don Smythe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" >> >> Don, >> >> Did you notice any differances before and after the prop trim ? >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Don Smythe" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:33 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub >> >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" >>> >>> Guy, >>> I have the 3 blade 70" warp (3:1 "C") and have had no problems with >>> performance. Actually, I had a prop strike and it's now a 68" 3 blade >>> (Warp repair). There are many applications using the 3 blade warp and >>> 582 with no problems. Please tell me off list again what you are >>> seeing. I wasn't paying attention before and all shouldn't have to hear >>> it again. Sorry >>> >>> >>> Don Smythe >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Guy Buchanan" >>> To: ; >>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:53 PM >>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub >>> >>> >>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >>>> >>>> All, >>>> Donny, one of the locals, suggested that I was over-propped and >>>> that was why my performance was off. (I'm running a 70" Warp 3-blade on >>>> my Rotax 582 with a 3:1 "C" box.) He suggested I go to two blades, or >>>> change the ratio to 3.47:1. Toward that end, I'm looking to see if >>>> anyone has a Warp two blade hub or some 3.47:1 "C" box gears that I >>>> might beg/borrow/buy. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> Guy Buchanan >>>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:20 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Sorry, the proof reader is out of town. I am using 100% ethanol in one series and vinyl ester in the other. Should read 100% ethanol and 6% mogas in the other. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:12 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" No Noel, that's where you come in. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > Can you also introduce bending and flexing and vibration that you get in a > flying airplane into your experiment? > > Noel > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Lowell Fitt >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:32 AM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again >> >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >> >> >> Don, I agree whole heartedly. My tanks are an interesting >> story. I took >> delivery of the kit in March 1993. Of course the first >> things were the >> fuselage controlls and fitting all the fuselate attachments: rudder, >> horizontal stab and elevator. Then I got around to doing the >> wings, left >> wing first. That was December 2003. The wing tank was a >> right wing tank >> with a left wing tank top, in other words the washout twist >> was backward. I >> sent the tank back for an exchange - so I now had wing tanks from two >> production era's nine months apart. >> >> It was the early tank that began leaking at 500 hours, in >> Idaho, after four >> days soaking in AV Gas. There is definitely, in my mind, >> differences in >> wing batches. Whether the difference has to do with materials or >> workmanship, I have no idea. >> >> I am running an experiment with vinyl ester resin and Kreem as a fuel >> barrior. I tried to boost the alcohol content of the local >> fuel - 6% - as >> we speak, but couldn't get the ethanol to mix, so I am using >> 100% ethanol in >> one series and vinyl ester in the other. I have the samples >> under a bell >> jar so I can simulate altitude changes that would cause a >> solid structure to >> degass at lower air pressures - if there are pin holes in the >> tanks there is >> air in them. The samples are held under the liquids in test >> tubes so I can >> observe degassing bubbles if present. I take them up to a >> simulated 14,000 >> ft daily and observe for any degassing bubbles. So far >> nothing in any of >> the samples, but they only have been submerged since Oct 1. >> >> I will rerport to the list the first sign of failure. >> >> Lowell >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Don Smythe" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:07 AM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again >> >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" >> > >> > Lowell, >> > I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff >> you're talking >> > about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was >> working in the >> > Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". This program >> > required all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified >> with a long >> > trail of paperwork You could just about track back a piece >> of metal to >> > the mine where the ore came from. We discussed many times >> that the old >> > Skystar had used a couple different tank manufactures and I >> never did get >> > a good warm feeling as to exactly what materials were used >> and when. >> > Bottom line, my 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or >> paperwork to tell me >> > what they are made of.. Who knows, they might be made of >> the pre 85 boat >> > stuff. >> > >> > Don Smythe >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority >> of the talk is >> >> in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have >> > >> >> The good news seems to indicate that the affected >> fiberglass tanks were >> >> made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have >> models built >> >> after >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:37 PM PST US From: GypsyBeeInnkeepers Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential --> Kitfox-List message posted by: GypsyBeeInnkeepers John, Will this retrofit kit work for models 1 & 2 as well? I couldn't find any mention on your websites. Rex Colorado jdmcbean wrote: > John, > > The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super > Sport. Youll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to convert the > Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly. > > Fly Safe !! > > John & Debra McBean > > 208.337.5111 > > _www.kitfoxaircraft.com_ > > /"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"/ > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *Dave > *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:48 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential > > John., I bet you find it nicer to fly now than before the mod ? > > Dave > > **< the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very > pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon > horns to fold the wings.>>** > > ----- Original Message ----- > > * > From: John > * > > **To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com * > > **Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:35 PM* > > **Subject:* Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential* > > * * > > *Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE > differential.* > > * * > > *I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron > control system in a computer program.* > > * * > > *I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have > to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a > choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant > flight characteristics.* > > * * > > *I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the > correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant > flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to > fold the wings.* > > * * > > *In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much > flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron > control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also > allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with > elevator trim.* > > * * > > *I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen > flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff. So I > cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others.* > > * * > > *It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences.* > > * * > > *Regards,* > > *John Stoner* > > *KFIII, 582* > > *Alaska* > >** ** > >** ** > >**href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron** > >** ** > >** ** > >**** > >** - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -** > >**** > >**** > >**** > >**** > >** --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List** > >**** > >** - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -** > >**** > >** --> ** > >**** > >** - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -** > >**** > >** --> ** > >**** > >** - List Contribution Web Site -** > >** Thank you for your generous support!** > >** -Matt Dralle, List Admin.** > >** --> **** > >**** > >** ** > >** > > >** > -- Karla and Rex Hefferan Gypsy Bee Innkeepers 719-651-5198 or 719-651-9192 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:23 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Guy's experience is similar to mine, though he is in the business and probably has a better heads-up than I do. My research has found several formulations of vinyl ester resins. The two that come to mind are alcohol resistant and electrically resistant. The resin sold in ACS is a DOW product and has been used in highway bridge studies. I personally need it in oz. quantities and the smallest quantity I have found is the ACS gallon. The down side of this material - all vinyl ester resins - is that they are "activated" before use and the hardner is the usual "peroxide" used with polyester resins. After activation, the resin has a shelf life of 90 days. I will use one or two ozs. and then toss the rest of the $65 gallon. If anyone knows where to get this stuff in relatively small quantities, you will be doing me a great favor and likely others on the list as well. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:24 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > At 08:16 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote: >>BTW, glass is an organic compound and you can find GALLONS of ethanol in >>every liquor store around the world. > > Brian, it's not the glass, but the resin matrix that has a problem with > solvents. > > I found some definitive information in Professional Boatbuilder. There is > a > standard, UL1316, to which all underground fiberglass fuel storage tanks > in > the US are currently being built. (And apparently all underground fuel > storage tanks in the US are currently being built of fiberglass.) If the > resin you're using, (probably a vinyl-ester based product,) meets UL 1316 > you can be reasonably sure it will work with all current auto fuels, and > any future fuel anyone might stick in an existing underground storage > tank. > (Hear that John?) You may be able to use this to obtain a satisfactory > interior coating. (I did a quick Google and found nothing.) Interplastic > Corporation was mentioned as a possible source for resin. They may also be > able to formulate an interior coating, though I'm sure it will be in bulk > quantities. > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:20 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Aileron Differential Michel,Aileron differential is when one aileron moves more degrees than the other when the control stick is deflected. Reverse differential is when the down aileron moves more than the up aileron. This conditioncreates more drag on the wing that is on the outside of the turningcircle, which requires a large rudder input to counteract. The correct differential is for the aileron on the inside of the turn to deflect more up than the aileron on the outside of the turn deflects down.This way the natural difference in drag on the wings makes the turn easier instead of more difficult. It should also be noted (to the best of my knowledge) that the same degrees of down elevator will cause moredrag than those degrees of up elevator, hence the desirability ofdifferential deflection.Also a note to Dave:I did this mod before I flew the airplane so have no basis of comparison.Regards,John StonerKFIII, 582Alaska--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Oct 14, 2006, at 7:35 PM, John wrote: > Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE > differential. I am sorry, John, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain, please? Thank you. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:52 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 W/ choped muffler ? My KF2 has a chopped manifold elbow and muffler to make it fit. I am unsure of my gear ratio but have a digital prop tack I will check it with (. I got the E box used) . my main jet is 1 size larger and my needle jet is 2 sizes larger than standard to keep egt temps in range to hit 6200 rpm with a lower than standard horse power (because of the shopped muffler) my gsc prop is set at 13% I am building a set of floats and want a nickel edged warp drive prop but which taper and length is the best for my application? consider that with a shorter than standard muffler and producing less H.P. is the need for larger jets just to control a egt temp that is false because of the echo wave in the muffler? my plugs do look. rich any body have this concern in the modil 2 with chopped muffler ? anybody have a chopped muffler on a modil 3? malcolm ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:24 PM PST US From: "david yeamans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is just a corrosive diversion to get a few more votes. Noel I agree with you 100 % David Yeamans ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:19 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on the road today with composite or plastic gas tanks. I wonder what will happen to them when they have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so. I still think ethanol is not the answer.... It is just a corrosive diversion to get a few more votes. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:15 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of > the talk is in > the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have deteriated > in some cases > and more seriously, in some cases residues, possibly from the > affected tanks > have resulted in engine damage. > > The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass > tanks were made > prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models > built after > that date. > > > For those interested do a Google search on Ethanol and > Fiberglass fuel > tanks. > > It is comforting that we Kitfox folks are not the only ones > concerned about > this issue and there is info out there. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Verheughe" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > > On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > >> In my opinion, no. > > > > Thank you, Don. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. > I mentioned > > once again PRC because Bill, on the Jabiru list, couldn't > understand what > > the problem was with ethanol. My initial posting there was > to say, in an > > answer to: is the Jabiru fuel pump and carby gaskets > ethanol resistant?; > > - "I can always replace hoses and gaskets but what about > fiberglass > > tanks?" > > > > Cheers, > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:09 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential John McBean, I would be interested in learning more about converting the Model 3 p lanes (and others) to the differential ailerons. Maybe you can post some of the info for us to read.? Rex in Michigan -- "jdmcbean" wrote: John, The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through curr ent Super Sport. You=92ll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to c onvert the Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-s erver@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential John., I bet you find it nicer to fly now than before the mod ? Dave <> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Aileron Differential Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE di fferential. I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron contr ol system in a computer program. I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a choice fo r convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant flight character istics. I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the co rrect 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO). I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold th e wings. In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron control , I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim .. I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen fl ying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff. So I can not compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others. It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences. Regards, John Stoner KFIII, 582 Alaska href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.mat ron - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - --> - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========================

John McBean,

   I would be interested in learning more about converting the Model 3 planes (and others) to the differential ailerons. Maybe you can post some of the info for us to read.?

Rex in Michigan

-- "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone. net> wrote:

John,

  &n bsp;         The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super Sport.  You=92ll be pleased.. We also ha ve a retrofit kit to convert the Model III to the Model IV mixer assembl y.

 

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircr aft.com  

" It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mail to:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:48 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A ileron Differential

 

John.,   I bet you find it nicer to fly  no w  than before the mod ?

 

 

Dave

 

 

<<I chose to redesign the aileron/flap cont rol mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it m akes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to disc onnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings.>>

----- Original Message -----

From: John

To: kitfox-list@ma tronics.com

Sent: Saturday, October 1 4, 2006 1:35 PM< SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-col or-alt: windowtext">

Subject : Kitfox-List: Ail eron Differential

 

Aileron differential on a sto ck Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential.

 

I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron control system in a computer progr am.

 

I believe this was accepted b y the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron contr ols to fold the wings, that was a choice for convenient airplane st orage and very rudder dependant flight characteristics.

 

I chose to redesign the ailer on/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron different ial and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings.

 

In the flap deployment area m y redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stal l speeds there is almost no aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim.

 

I do not live in a Kitfox ric h environment and the only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff.  So I cannot compare my Fox's fly ing characteristics to any others.

 

It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences.

 

Regards,

John Stoner

KFIII, 582< o:p>

Alaska 

 
 

href="http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron

 
< PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> 
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p; - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
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bsp;          - NEW 
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________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:12 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Glass is an organic compound???? Mostly silicate when I went to school. Not a carbon atom to be seen. For the record I didn't say cars weren't getting better only that there is a lot more engineering that goes into making a successful plane than into your run of the mill Ford or Chev. And yes you better believe there are parts that the manufacturers expect to fail inside the warranty periods. The cost of their replacement is built into the cars. Most new front wheel drive cars, except for the real cheapies, will have their front drive shafts (CV Joints) replaced within the warranty period. That all depends on how the car is driven I guess. Then I'm at 50' or 3000' I don't need to worry if the innards of my tank will plug my engine. You may take that chance.... I won't. I want to see some real experimentation done with some real figures. In the meantime I'll err on the side of safety ( if I've erred at all) If that bothers you ... It should. And perhaps you should stand back and have a look at who is saying what.... Yes car warranties have been getting longer and cars them selves have been getting lighter. There is more plastic on and in new cars than you can shake a stick at. Most of this plastic is a great improvement in design. E.g. the composite springs found on the back of some mini vans are quite strong at a fraction of the weight of the old steel ones. All wheel drive systems are finally coming into their own. Etc, etc... They still have a long way to go to catch up with aircraft design engineers. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:31 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I wonder what will happen if they find out in fifteen years all those underground composite tanks start to decompose??? Yes don there are no assurances as to what it is you have there and worse than that changing tanks further down the road is a fairly big time consuming job.... Especially when you'd sooner be flying. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Don Smythe > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:58 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > > From: "Noel Loveys" > > Don: > > > > As far as I've heard there is only one composite filler > that is used on > > fuel > > tanks. That is a Vinyl-ester filler. I've been told the > > Yep, done read that a thousand times on the internet > concerning gas station > fuel tanks but, back to my one concern, somebody prove to me > that my tanks > are made of Vinyl-ester. No serial number, no traceable > paperwork, nothing > from the factory, no quality assurance sign off, just rumors. > > Don Smythe > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:19 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Gee! The booze around here doesn't get to stay on the shelves very long so how do we know the plastic bottles will stand up to a few minor things like exposure to ultraviolet light, famous for breaking the molecular bonds of just about any plastic and temperature changes, not to mention vibration. Yes we can protect our tanks from the UV easily but we have the right to know what we are getting into before we commit. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Randy Daughenbaugh > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:11 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > By a chemist's definition, glass in inorganic. > > But you can buy booze in plastic bottles, and it has ethanol in it. > > Randy > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" So why would any one in their right mind want to put ethanol contaminated fuel in these tanks?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michel Verheughe > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:35 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Hei Torgeir, > > On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:17 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > > So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox??? My > Kitfox model II > > (93 mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks). > > Interesting. I wonder why they decided for that epoxy resin that was > developed mainly for the maritime industry and the "cold molding" > method of bounding thin wood ply with the resin. > Anyway, we have asked West System if their epoxy was ethanol > resistant > and they answered "No, but we are working on it." > > Cheers, > Michel > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:16 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Yours seems to me to be the only independent experiment I've heard about. Great. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:23 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > Sorry, the proof reader is out of town. > > I am using 100% ethanol in one series and vinyl ester in the > other. Should > read 100% ethanol and 6% mogas in the other. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lowell Fitt" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:01 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:01 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I think I'll wait until your results are posted before I try anything like that.... I'm lucky living out in the North Atlantic. I don't expect to have my gas supply contaminated with ethanol in the very near future. Corn in usable quantities won't grow here and the cost of transporting Eth from the closest distilleries would be prohibitive. Just curious are they (the refiners or governments) putting any thing into EA85 to make it either poisonous or un-palatable? Could make for a cheap weekend ;-) Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:26 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > No Noel, that's where you come in. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:02 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > Can you also introduce bending and flexing and vibration > that you get in a > > flying airplane into your experiment? > > > > Noel > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> Lowell Fitt > >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:32 AM > >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > >> > >> > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > >> > >> > >> Don, I agree whole heartedly. My tanks are an interesting > >> story. I took > >> delivery of the kit in March 1993. Of course the first > >> things were the > >> fuselage controlls and fitting all the fuselate > attachments: rudder, > >> horizontal stab and elevator. Then I got around to doing the > >> wings, left > >> wing first. That was December 2003. The wing tank was a > >> right wing tank > >> with a left wing tank top, in other words the washout twist > >> was backward. I > >> sent the tank back for an exchange - so I now had wing > tanks from two > >> production era's nine months apart. > >> > >> It was the early tank that began leaking at 500 hours, in > >> Idaho, after four > >> days soaking in AV Gas. There is definitely, in my mind, > >> differences in > >> wing batches. Whether the difference has to do with materials or > >> workmanship, I have no idea. > >> > >> I am running an experiment with vinyl ester resin and > Kreem as a fuel > >> barrior. I tried to boost the alcohol content of the local > >> fuel - 6% - as > >> we speak, but couldn't get the ethanol to mix, so I am using > >> 100% ethanol in > >> one series and vinyl ester in the other. I have the samples > >> under a bell > >> jar so I can simulate altitude changes that would cause a > >> solid structure to > >> degass at lower air pressures - if there are pin holes in the > >> tanks there is > >> air in them. The samples are held under the liquids in test > >> tubes so I can > >> observe degassing bubbles if present. I take them up to a > >> simulated 14,000 > >> ft daily and observe for any degassing bubbles. So far > >> nothing in any of > >> the samples, but they only have been submerged since Oct 1. > >> > >> I will rerport to the list the first sign of failure. > >> > >> Lowell > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Don Smythe" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:07 AM > >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again > >> > >> > >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > >> > > >> > Lowell, > >> > I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff > >> you're talking > >> > about. I still have one little concern. Back when I was > >> working in the > >> > Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE". > This program > >> > required all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified > >> with a long > >> > trail of paperwork You could just about track back a piece > >> of metal to > >> > the mine where the ore came from. We discussed many times > >> that the old > >> > Skystar had used a couple different tank manufactures and I > >> never did get > >> > a good warm feeling as to exactly what materials were used > >> and when. > >> > Bottom line, my 1995 tanks have no serial numbers or > >> paperwork to tell me > >> > what they are made of.. Who knows, they might be made of > >> the pre 85 boat > >> > stuff. > >> > > >> > Don Smythe > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority > >> of the talk is > >> >> in the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have > >> > > >> >> The good news seems to indicate that the affected > >> fiberglass tanks were > >> >> made prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have > >> models built > >> >> after > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >