Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:02 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Dave)
2. 03:55 AM - Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave)
3. 05:55 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Lynn Matteson)
4. 06:20 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (PWilson)
6. 07:53 AM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan)
7. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan)
8. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: Finger Strainer access on Series 7? (Guy Buchanan)
9. 08:20 AM - Re: How To Fly a Kitfox (Dan Billingsley)
10. 08:21 AM - Re: Heater Pot scrubbers (Noel Loveys)
11. 08:24 AM - Re: Heater Pot scrubbers (Noel Loveys)
12. 08:32 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Noel Loveys)
13. 08:34 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Noel Loveys)
14. 08:46 AM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave)
15. 08:47 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Dave)
16. 08:53 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Noel Loveys)
17. 08:54 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Noel Loveys)
18. 08:58 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Noel Loveys)
19. 09:33 AM - Re: How To Fly a Kitfox (Noel Loveys)
20. 11:41 AM - Re: Finger Strainer access on Series 7? (darinh)
21. 11:53 AM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Lynn Matteson)
22. 11:54 AM - Re: Heater Pot scrubbers (Lynn Matteson)
23. 01:55 PM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (John Anderson)
24. 02:04 PM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (PWilson)
25. 02:12 PM - Tailwheel (Lowell Fitt)
26. 04:02 PM - need info on 582 rebuilding (akflyer)
27. 04:21 PM - Re: Tailwheel (Ted Palamarek)
28. 05:58 PM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave)
29. 06:14 PM - Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (Dave)
30. 06:17 PM - Re: heat muffs and electrolysis (Dave)
31. 06:31 PM - Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (Mark Miller)
32. 06:34 PM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Guy Buchanan)
33. 06:34 PM - Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (akflyer)
34. 06:51 PM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Dave)
35. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (Dave)
36. 07:02 PM - Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (akflyer)
37. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (Dave)
38. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (Aerobatics@aol.com)
39. 07:24 PM - Re: Tailwheel (Dee Young)
40. 08:04 PM - Re: How To Fly a Kitfox ()
41. 08:09 PM - Another video for you guys and GUY !! (Dave)
42. 08:17 PM - oops for got link Re: Another video for you guys and GUY !! (Dave)
43. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (john perry)
44. 09:00 PM - First Flight N422NL (Joel Mapes)
45. 09:04 PM - Re: need info on 582 rebuilding (akflyer)
46. 09:46 PM - Re: First Flight N422NL (ron schick)
47. 11:02 PM - Re: Tailwheel (James Shumaker)
48. 11:24 PM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (John Anderson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between copper/brass
with Aluminum at all.
That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper would be a
better conductor than Stainless Steel.
In this application I have not idea if one would be better than another (SS
versus Copper )
I found this it matters
"1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from fire
debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results of these tests
demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in contact with copper
conductors drastically reduces the melting point of copper by alloying. "
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible electrolysis thing
> with the previously-mentioned copper scrubbers? It was mentioned that they
> really worked well, and I wondered if they worked well enough to chance
> risking a possible electrolysis problem due to the interaction between the
> copper scrubbers and (my) aluminum heat muff?
>
> Lynn
> On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane
>> <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>>
>> Lynn,
>>
>> On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
>>
>> 1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal where the
>> scrubber
>> touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can then
>> transfer
>> to the air because it has additional surface area.
>> 2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the pipe - a lot of
>> heat
>> is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try holding your
>> hand
>> within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel hot even if
>> you
>> don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the scrubber metal that
>> is
>> not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then transfer
>> the
>> heat to the air mass flowing by.
>> 3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up heat from the
>> pipe
>> and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix - the slowing down
>> of
>> the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow accomplishes
>> this.
>>
>> Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>>
>> Dave S
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that
is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off
about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)
Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as
well.
I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
at before you changed it ? . I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set
all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I think it
was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater
I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set by RPM and how
it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area. I used the Warp
protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think I made it 1/2
degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to 6150 - 6200 and
my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also dropped the clip
on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all the way rich now.
and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit less in cruise.
Temps here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and our elevation is
about 950 asl.
I would set your prop to give 6200 to 6400 rpm static to start and
coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed. Assuming you
have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on
second notch from bottom of needle but if EGTS get over 1200 in cruise I
would drop one more notch. I think you said that you have some EIS or
engine gauges etc ? How is the impulse achieved ? A tiny tach will
confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate.
Tiny Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out
overnight. EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
get him over to help you out as well is possible. Personally I Think you
are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey
some simple issues here to resolve.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 11:44 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
>>You need me to do a movie of different props on 582 Kitfox ? I have 3
>>different ones here and if anyone reads this like Tennessee props or
>>Culver
>>props, I would ask if you would like some good coverage on a Kitfox 582
>>to
>>send me your best prop. I have 2 similar planes to try them on so we can
>>get different results and post them for all to see.
>>
>>If you want bragging rights for your prop -- contact me
>
> Thanks for the offer. I'm still fooling around. My last attempt was to
> increase the pitch to 13.5d at the tip. It was really interesting. I had
> 6000 static; looked great. Then I tried to take off. I rolled maybe 50
> feet and the engine started to wind down. By the time I got to 30mph the
> engine was down to 4400rpm and it was clear I was going nowhere! I tried
> it twice with the exact same results. So it appears I was very near the
> torque curve with my previous 12 degrees.
>
> I'm going through the engine now trying to discern why I would be low on
> horsepower. Jan at JC Propellor is trying to help me. He has a contact
> with a similar configuration who tops out at 102mph. Using Martin
> Hollman's speed program I'd have to have either 3 square feet more drag
> area, (40% more,) or be running 45hp max in my 582, or some combination
> thereof. It's unlikely I have more than 1 square foot more drag area so
> that would mean I was running 54hp max. I've got good compression and good
> EGT's, but I haven't checked the ignition timing, rotary valve timing, or
> exhaust pipe.
>
> Question for the 582 folk: Is there a way to check the ignition timing
> electronically or with a strobe? I don't want to pull the engine quite
> yet.
>
> I'm going to post pictures of my exhaust for comparison / evaluation by
> the 582 experts. It's definitely NOT Rotax stock.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
It's raining here today...a perfect day to change my tailwheel spring
to the new 3-leaf, and to install some scrubbers in one heat muff for a
trial test...I can't wait...wish I had an airplane wind tunnel so I
didn't have to wait for good weather to test. : )
What, Kurt, you don't think snipping out some of those strands of
scrubber "wire" is an adjustment? : )
Lynn
do not archive
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 02:12 AM, kurt schrader wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> The old WW-I Jenny had a radiator where the water only
> went around the outer ring. The entire center was
> only conductor. Seems the heat would transfer a long
> ways from the contacted surface.
>
> I think in the case of the scrubbers, they not only
> slow the air down but mix it so that more air has a
> chance to contact heated surfaces. As was mentioned,
> radiation has more time to work too.
>
> My air coming from my oil cooler only rises about 10
> degrees in temperature. I planned to use it for cabin
> heat. Looks like I'll have to lower the airspeed thru
> the cooler to get much heat out of it in winter.
> Scrubbers aren't adjustable enough. :-)
>
> Kurt S. S-5
>
> --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
>> I realize that, Dave...that they slow down the air
>> and therefore the
>> air heats up. That is why I built some baffles that
>> have fins
>> protruding from them, and the fins are offset,
>> thereby making the air
>> slow down, go around the fins, picking up heat, etc.
>> My finned baffles
>> are in direct contact with the exhaust pipe. Maybe I
>> should have
>> explained this when I asked the question. I know the
>> principle of how
>> the scrubbers work, what I wanted to know was how do
>> the scrubbers PICK
>> UP the heat from the exhaust pipe when they have so
>> very little surface
>> area in contact with the pipe. Maybe you guys
>> stuffed the scrubbers in
>> your muffs very tightly, thereby creating a lot of
>> conduction heat
>> pickup...did you? (those that have tried the
>> scrubbers?)
>>
>> Lynn
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Without knowing any more than I do about electricity/electrolysis, I
think I'll forego looking for the copper scrubbers and use the steel(?)
ones that I bought yesterday for the first test. It would be nice to
test copper in one muff and SS in the other, though....what the hell,
I'm sure a short test like this would not cause enough of a problem as
to bring the plane down. Far from that, perhaps a little pitting where
the copper contacted the aluminum is all that I can imagine...we'll
see. As soon as the west coast wakes up, I've got an electrical
engineer friend "on retainer" that might be able to shed some light on
this.
Lynn
do not archive
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 06:01 AM, Dave wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between
> copper/brass with Aluminum at all.
> That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper would
> be a better conductor than Stainless Steel.
> In this application I have not idea if one would be better than
> another (SS versus Copper )
> I found this it matters
> "1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
>
>
> Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from fire
> debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results of these
> tests demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in contact with
> copper conductors drastically reduces the melting point of copper by
> alloying. "
>
>
> Dave
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Aluminum and copper or brass are close in the electromotive chart.
Steel is not a good used with Al. My 84 172 had stainless pads in the
air intakes to keep out the bugs. Never saw any corrosion, but there
was no heat at the leading edge intakes. If the muffler is stainless
then use stainless pads If the thing is Al then use copper or brass.
If the shroud is Al and the muffler is stainless or other steel you
already have a corrosion issue that wont be exacerbated by any kind of pad.
Hope this helps, Paul
==================
At 04:01 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
>Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between
>copper/brass with Aluminum at all.
>That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper would
>be a better conductor than Stainless Steel.
>In this application I have not idea if one would be better than
>another (SS versus Copper )
>I found this it matters
>"1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
>
>
>Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from
>fire debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results of
>these tests demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in contact
>with copper conductors drastically reduces the melting point of
>copper by alloying. "
>
>
>Dave
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>>That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible electrolysis
>>thing with the previously-mentioned copper scrubbers? It was
>>mentioned that they really worked well, and I wondered if they
>>worked well enough to chance risking a possible electrolysis
>>problem due to the interaction between the copper scrubbers and
>>(my) aluminum heat muff?
>>
>>Lynn
>>On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>>
>>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>>>
>>>Lynn,
>>>
>>>On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
>>>
>>>1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal where
>>>the scrubber
>>>touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can then transfer
>>>to the air because it has additional surface area.
>>>2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the pipe - a
>>>lot of heat
>>>is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try
>>>holding your hand
>>>within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel hot even if you
>>>don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the scrubber metal that is
>>>not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then transfer the
>>>heat to the air mass flowing by.
>>>3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up heat
>>>from the pipe
>>>and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix - the slowing down of
>>>the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow accomplishes
>>>this.
>>>
>>>Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>>>
>>>Dave S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 03:55 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
>manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that
>is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off
>about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)
I couldn't find this. Do you have it?
>Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
>times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as
>well.
>I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
>Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
Good idea.
>Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
>at before you changed it ? .
I had it at 12 degrees.
>I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set
>all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I think it
>was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater
>I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set by RPM and how
>it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area. I used the Warp
>protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think I made it 1/2
>degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to 6150 - 6200 and
>my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also dropped the clip
>on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all the way rich now.
>and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit less in cruise.
>Temps here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and our elevation is
>about 950 asl.
Thanks for this info. It's very helpful. My previous WOT was 6550. Maybe it
would help to bring it up closer to 6700.
>A tiny tach will
>confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate.
>Tiny Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out
>overnight. EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
I have an optical tach and have confirmed the RPM readings on the GRT EIS
are accurate.
>Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
>get him over to help you out as well is possible.
Man I've got hordes of people with lots of experience, probably too many,
as I get lots of opinions! I'm looking for hard data, like yours. All the
anecdotes get contradicted with every new opinion!
>Personally I Think you
>are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey
>some simple issues here to resolve.
Nah. The technical stuff is fun. I'm learning a lot. I'm even going to
write my own prop optimization software when I get the time. I agree my
problems are probably simple, (excess drag, inadequate horsepower,) but
it's a learning experience to chase them down, and you'd be surprised how
hard it is to compile useful comparison data; there are so many variables.
Thank you for your patience and assistance. I really do appreciate it. I
know if I bug everyone enough I'll find the piece of the puzzle I'm looking
for.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 08:40 PM 10/20/2006, you wrote:
>Sorry to but in here as I have nothing really helpful to offer. I'm just
>confused about the explination for the RPM decreasing with increased
>airspeed. Shouldn't the prop unload as airspeed increasing and therefore
>increase RPM for the same HP output?
Normally, yes. But in my case the prop was stalled at 0 airspeed. Once I
picked up some airspeed it un-stalled, loaded up past the torque
capabilities of the motor at any RPM, dragging the RPM down until the
torque requirements of the prop matched the torque output of the motor. If
the torque requirement curve matches the torque output curve the RPM decays
to a very low value.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Finger Strainer access on Series 7? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 09:38 PM 10/20/2006, you wrote:
>I spent a bunch of time thinking about this setup and did actually run
>some calcs on the rib (I am a civil engineer with a structures background)
>with pretty much every load combination I could think of (i.e. side,
>compression, tension, suction, etc.) and there are no issues.
Good. It's always difficult to tell, via the list, when someone's wandered off.
>If you really think about it, you have a very rigid tank that acts as a 3'
>wide rib in this area. After doing the calcs, I am convinced that this
>rib #1 is primarily to provide a finished root to the wing and to allow
>for a convenient location for attaching the fabric.
I agree rib#1 is generally doing little because the fuselage structure
places the two spars. Other than that it holds the end of the fabric with a
lot of help from the tank. I suspect it loads more when you fold the wings,
(especially with fuel in the tanks,) but that's why I built a support to
unload it during storage and transit.
PS. Your work looked excellent. I can't wait to see the finished product.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: How To Fly a Kitfox |
Just go get a copy of Stick and Rudder...you can get those anywhere. Good information.
Dan
Malcolmbru@aol.com wrote:
any body got a cpoy of the book I can get from them? Malcolm michigan
kit foxer taking the chek ride soon
Message 10
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| Subject: | Heater Pot scrubbers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
I used to have a wad of SOS r pads (steel wool) in my emergency kit. That
In a Ziploc r bag and a 9V battery in another Ziploc. The 9V battery
shorted with a small piece of steel wool would start the fire you could use
the ziploc bags to carry berries or worms to fish with.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:13 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Heater Pot scrubbers
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Steel wool will really go off if used to short across a battery's
> terminals. Probably best to test this with long jumpers, and
> not right
> across the battery...explosive gasses and all. Those of you
> who are my
> age will probably recall a commercial product that used this
> principal
> to huge success...the photographic flashbulb. They might have used a
> magnesium "wool".
>
> Lynn
> do not archive
> On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 04:45 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Smith"
> <bsmith3163@aol.com>
> >
> > I don't know about the stainless steel scrubbing pads you have
> > mentioned but
> > have you ever seen steel wool burn? One spark will ignite
> it like it
> > was
> > made out of gasoline. I have carried it before in a survival kit.
> > One good
> > spark and you can easily start a camp fire. I have heard that it
> > burns so
> > well because of an oil used in the process of making it. I
> would test
> > a
> > piece of what ever you are using just to make sure.
> >
> > Brian Smith.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Heater Pot scrubbers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Iron filings will ignite almost as fast if you get them hot enough. The pot
scrubbers we are discussing are considerably heavier. My mother used to
call them "Curly Qs" they are usually stainless steel so they will last a
good long time. Steel wool will rust.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Brian Smith
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Heater Pot scrubbers
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Smith" <bsmith3163@aol.com>
>
> I don't know about the stainless steel scrubbing pads you
> have mentioned but
> have you ever seen steel wool burn? One spark will ignite it
> like it was
> made out of gasoline. I have carried it before in a survival
> kit. One good
> spark and you can easily start a camp fire. I have heard
> that it burns so
> well because of an oil used in the process of making it. I
> would test a
> piece of what ever you are using just to make sure.
>
> Brian Smith.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Don Smythe
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:10 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Heater Pot scrubbers
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
> Not sure if it would make any difference but I read somewhere
> about these
> scrubbers being used in aircraft fabricated heat muffs.
> However, it made a
> point to use the ones made from Brass (on the same shelf right next to
> stainless). I can't remember why they specifically called
> for Brass except
> maybe brass is softer and less likely to wear a hole in the
> muffler/heat
> muff or, maybe it was heat retention?????. For whatever
> reason, I use the
> Brass ones.
>
> Don Smythe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:13 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Heater Pot scrubbers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> >
> > Guys -- this is what you want right here
> > http://update-international.com/jpg_300x300/ssp-50.html
> >
> > Most stores carry them .
> >
> > I use them and they are excellent. You can get 20 to 30
> C temp gain in
> > your cockpit done properly.
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox/Jabiru trip numbers
> >
> >
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> That explains why I didn't think of it, Michel.: ) I spent
> a half-day
> >> building some internal baffles, and you guys spent a
> >> half-minute...sheeeesh! A great idea! I can't wait to try
> it out. I have
>
> >> installed a (temporary) thermocouple lead into the outlet
> of each of my
> >> heat muffs, and I can read what the air temp is coming out
> of the muffs.
> >> I can experiment with different types of baffles and learn
> what helps the
>
> >> most....guess that's what makes this "Experimental Aircraft"
> >> experimental.
> >>
> >> I wonder what copper scrubbers would do? (please, no
> plastic scrubbers)
> >> Works for radiators...or it did when they still made them
> that way, and
> >> the coefficient of heat transmission is better than
> anything else my
> >> "bible" shows other than silver.
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >> On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 01:03 PM, Michel
> Verheughe wrote:
> >>
> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> <michel@online.no>
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 19, 2006, at 6:32 PM, Algate wrote:
> >>>> - have you thought about using stranded Stainless steel
> (used for
> >>>> kitchen wash scrubbers)
> >>>
> >>> Amazing! This is EXACTLY what I did with my Jabiru, last
> winter, Gary! I
>
> >>> installed a cabin heater, from the muffler, but the air
> was coming in
> >>> too fast and it didn't had the time to warm up. After adding a SS
> >>> kitchen scrubber at the cabin's end of the hose, it comes
> in slower and
> >>> warmer.
> >>> ... great minds think alike! :-)
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Michel
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
I think most (not all) the dissimilar metal corrosion will occur on the
softer metal. E.g. Aluminium in contact with steel given sufficient heat
and moisture the aluminium will corrode more than the steel. The pot
scrubbers are stainless steel as is the muffler. It is ,no doubt, not the
same kind of stainless steel but they are probably close enough together
that wear and corrosion should be minimal..... Check it every twenty or so
years. ;-)
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:56 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I had a question earlier today (while flying) regarding the
> use of pot
> scrubbers in a heat muff...if you put a copper scrubber into an
> aluminum heat muff, is there a resulting electrolysis action
> that takes
> place? Is this a problem? Are stainless scrubbers less immune? (my
> guess is yes)
> I realize that my heat muffs (alum) are clamped around the stainless
> steel exhaust pipe, but I have to accept this fact.
> How do the pot scrubbers pick up the heat from the exhaust
> pipe, seeing
> as it does not touch it in very many places...as least not as
> much as a
> clamped-on finned device (that I built) would?
> I'll accept the fact that many of you have tried the
> scrubbers and they
> work, but I'd like to know the physics of it all.
>
> Lynn
> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
They also work as heating fins ... They help to transmit heat from the
muffler into the air inside the muff.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 8:55 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Lynn,
>
> They slow the air down going through the heated airspace.
> If you don't have them, you will get cooler air coming through.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:26 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >
> > I had a question earlier today (while flying) regarding the
> use of pot
> > scrubbers in a heat muff...if you put a copper scrubber into an
> > aluminum heat muff, is there a resulting electrolysis
> action that takes
> > place? Is this a problem? Are stainless scrubbers less immune? (my
> > guess is yes)
> > I realize that my heat muffs (alum) are clamped around the
> stainless
> > steel exhaust pipe, but I have to accept this fact.
> > How do the pot scrubbers pick up the heat from the exhaust
> pipe, seeing
> > as it does not touch it in very many places...as least not
> as much as a
> > clamped-on finned device (that I built) would?
> > I'll accept the fact that many of you have tried the
> scrubbers and they
> > work, but I'd like to know the physics of it all.
> >
> > Lynn
> > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy, go to page 25 section 10
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d00287.pdf
But Like i said before you are getting a clouded vision of a simple
problem of prop setting.
Keep in mind Props like your are being used successfully on many 582s so
thinkiing about writing software etc is not necessary in my opinion.
We are talking proven designs and props here so no needto re-invent the
wheel .
I just in from flying last 2 hours. did about 10 take offs and landings
when i got back ..... and all were 150 to 200 feet at th most
wind about 3 knots or less temp 5 C elevation 950 '
Warp set at 6200 static. cruies at 5800 85 to 88 or so at 500 agl
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 03:55 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
>>manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone(
>>that
>>is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off
>>about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)
>
> I couldn't find this. Do you have it?
>
>>Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
>>times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him
>>as
>>well.
>>I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
>>Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
>
> Good idea.
>
>>Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
>>at before you changed it ? .
>
> I had it at 12 degrees.
>
>>I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set
>>all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I think
>>it
>>was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large
>>dimater
>>I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set by RPM and how
>>it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area. I used the
>>Warp
>>protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think I made it 1/2
>>degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to 6150 - 6200
>>and
>>my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also dropped the clip
>>on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all the way rich now.
>>and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit less in cruise.
>>Temps here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and our elevation is
>>about 950 asl.
>
> Thanks for this info. It's very helpful. My previous WOT was 6550. Maybe
> it would help to bring it up closer to 6700.
>
>>A tiny tach will
>>confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate.
>>Tiny Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out
>>overnight. EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
>
> I have an optical tach and have confirmed the RPM readings on the GRT EIS
> are accurate.
>
>>Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
>>get him over to help you out as well is possible.
>
> Man I've got hordes of people with lots of experience, probably too many,
> as I get lots of opinions! I'm looking for hard data, like yours. All the
> anecdotes get contradicted with every new opinion!
>
>>Personally I Think you
>>are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey
>>some simple issues here to resolve.
>
> Nah. The technical stuff is fun. I'm learning a lot. I'm even going to
> write my own prop optimization software when I get the time. I agree my
> problems are probably simple, (excess drag, inadequate horsepower,) but
> it's a learning experience to chase them down, and you'd be surprised how
> hard it is to compile useful comparison data; there are so many variables.
> Thank you for your patience and assistance. I really do appreciate it. I
> know if I bug everyone enough I'll find the piece of the puzzle I'm
> looking for.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
If we worrying about metal interaction in a heater we need to focus on
better things in life ... Like flying -- i got 2 hours in this am so far
:)
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> I think most (not all) the dissimilar metal corrosion will occur on the
> softer metal. E.g. Aluminium in contact with steel given sufficient heat
> and moisture the aluminium will corrode more than the steel. The pot
> scrubbers are stainless steel as is the muffler. It is ,no doubt, not the
> same kind of stainless steel but they are probably close enough together
> that wear and corrosion should be minimal..... Check it every twenty or so
> years. ;-)
>
> Noel
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:56 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>>
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> I had a question earlier today (while flying) regarding the
>> use of pot
>> scrubbers in a heat muff...if you put a copper scrubber into an
>> aluminum heat muff, is there a resulting electrolysis action
>> that takes
>> place? Is this a problem? Are stainless scrubbers less immune? (my
>> guess is yes)
>> I realize that my heat muffs (alum) are clamped around the stainless
>> steel exhaust pipe, but I have to accept this fact.
>> How do the pot scrubbers pick up the heat from the exhaust
>> pipe, seeing
>> as it does not touch it in very many places...as least not as
>> much as a
>> clamped-on finned device (that I built) would?
>> I'll accept the fact that many of you have tried the
>> scrubbers and they
>> work, but I'd like to know the physics of it all.
>>
>> Lynn
>> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
I see there is some question as to whether or not the pot scrubbers actually
transfer heat or just slow down the airflow so more heat can be absorbed
directly into the air from the muffler.
I have thought up a little experiment for you to try. This is a simple do
it at home test that the XYL (Mrs) can help you with. Put a pot scrubber in
a cast iron skillet and let it warm up for say five minutes then remove the
scrubber from the pan and insert a meat thermometer into it. It the
temperature on the thermometer rises then the scrubber will have absorbed
some of the heat from the skillet. I advise you not to try to handle the
pot scrubber with your bare hands. Let it sit for a minute or two then
touch it with your fingers.... It should still be warm.
Do not use any oils or spices in this recipe.
Bonne Appetite
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kurt schrader
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 3:43 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> The old WW-I Jenny had a radiator where the water only
> went around the outer ring. The entire center was
> only conductor. Seems the heat would transfer a long
> ways from the contacted surface.
>
> I think in the case of the scrubbers, they not only
> slow the air down but mix it so that more air has a
> chance to contact heated surfaces. As was mentioned,
> radiation has more time to work too.
>
> My air coming from my oil cooler only rises about 10
> degrees in temperature. I planned to use it for cabin
> heat. Looks like I'll have to lower the airspeed thru
> the cooler to get much heat out of it in winter.
> Scrubbers aren't adjustable enough. :-)
>
> Kurt S. S-5
>
> --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> > I realize that, Dave...that they slow down the air
> > and therefore the
> > air heats up. That is why I built some baffles that
> > have fins
> > protruding from them, and the fins are offset,
> > thereby making the air
> > slow down, go around the fins, picking up heat, etc.
> > My finned baffles
> > are in direct contact with the exhaust pipe. Maybe I
> > should have
> > explained this when I asked the question. I know the
> > principle of how
> > the scrubbers work, what I wanted to know was how do
> > the scrubbers PICK
> > UP the heat from the exhaust pipe when they have so
> > very little surface
> > area in contact with the pipe. Maybe you guys
> > stuffed the scrubbers in
> > your muffs very tightly, thereby creating a lot of
> > conduction heat
> > pickup...did you? (those that have tried the
> > scrubbers?)
> >
> > Lynn
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Spot on too!
Noel
> Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>
> Dave S
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Not too good an idea to use aluminium any where near a heat source. I don't
think you will have any problem with the scrubbers or your muffler (similar
metals) but the muff it self (dis-similar aluminium) could be a trouble spot
for corrosion and shape distortion because of heat.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:00 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible electrolysis
> thing with the previously-mentioned copper scrubbers? It was
> mentioned
> that they really worked well, and I wondered if they worked
> well enough
> to chance risking a possible electrolysis problem due to the
> interaction between the copper scrubbers and (my) aluminum heat muff?
>
> Lynn
> On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane
> > <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> >
> > On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
> >
> > 1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal
> where the
> > scrubber
> > touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can then
> > transfer
> > to the air because it has additional surface area.
> > 2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the
> pipe - a lot
> > of heat
> > is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try holding
> > your hand
> > within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel
> hot even if
> > you
> > don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the
> scrubber metal
> > that is
> > not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then
> > transfer the
> > heat to the air mass flowing by.
> > 3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up
> heat from
> > the pipe
> > and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix -
> the slowing
> > down of
> > the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow
> > accomplishes
> > this.
> >
> > Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
> >
> > Dave S
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | How To Fly a Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
John:
I'm just about as far away from being a lawyer as you can get. Many snows
ago when I was studying photography I had to do a course in copyright
(Canada) I assume the laws have not been changed.
If the American law regarding copyright are the same as they are in Canada
then you hold the copyright which is in effect for fifty years from the date
of the first printing. (note not publishing but printing i.e. typing) This
is true except where the holder of a copyright dies. The copyright becomes
part of his estate and is in effect for fifty years from the date of his
death. That was written in as a protection for the families of copyright
holders. It is possible for a copyright to be in effect for one day less
than 100 yr.
I've been told if you reprint the book (Same title) with some changes to the
content than you can claim a new copyright on that edition. How many
changes constitute a new edition is a question for a lawyer on your side of
the border.
Copyrights between Canada and the United States are reciprocal. Sending the
book to Canada for copying is not legal. It could result in charges of
transporting stolen material across International Borders not too good in
either Canada or the U.S..
I lost a job a few years ago for refusing to copy some work that was
copyrighted. I also refused to allow my employer to use my large format
copy cameras to do the work himself. I also privately informed the
copyright holder that a specific person was trying to have his work copied.
I have no problem with making a copy of part of a book that I already have a
copy of for my personal use. E.g. copying pages from a maintenance manual
to use at the plane. Such copies are routinely destroyed after use. Other
uses of copied materials are simply theft. With the amount of material
available on the internet it is getting harder to find out what is and is
not copyright.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 8:06 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How To Fly a Kitfox
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>
> We own the rights and are reproducing the book...
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John & Debra McBean
> 208.337.5111
> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Barry West
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 4:23 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How To Fly a Kitfox
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Barry West" <barry@pgtc.com>
>
> John, I have my orginal copy. It is copyrighted by Skystar,
> 1993. You
> should be able to get permission someway.
>
> Barry West
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:39 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How To Fly a Kitfox
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean"
> <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
> >
> > Yes it is
> >
> > Fly Safe !!
> > John & Debra McBean
> > 208.337.5111
> > www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> > "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> crazyivan
> > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:55 PM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: How To Fly a Kitfox
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "crazyivan" <dmivezic@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Does anybody know if "How To Fly a Kitfox" is copyrighted?
> Meaning, can
> > we
> > legally pass it around in .pdf format over the internet? I
> know the book
> > was for sale new for a time but now I think that it's out
> of print. The
> > only downloadable file I found was on Lazair.com but a
> scum-sucking jerk
> > hacked the site and wiped out the Kitfox content.
> >
> > --------
> > Dave
> > Speedster 912 UL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69170#69170
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Finger Strainer access on Series 7? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
Guy,
Thanks for the compliments...I can't wait to see the finished product as well...actually,
I can't wait to fly the finished product! Sometimes it seems so far
off. Oh well, just keep on building...
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69316#69316
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
What I have is: no muffler involved...is its sending it's heat to the
carb, when needed.
I have stainless steel exhaust pipes, to which I've attached (think
clam shell, wrap-around) an aluminum heat muff, and later installed
alum baffles inside that. The current question is what kind of material
should be used for the scrubbers inside that alum heat muff? It sounds
like because I already have an alum muff in contact with a SS pipe,
that the addition of the SS scrubber pads, or copper, will not create
a problem that is not already there.
Lynn
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 10:03 AM, PWilson wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>
> Aluminum and copper or brass are close in the electromotive chart.
> Steel is not a good used with Al. My 84 172 had stainless pads in the
> air intakes to keep out the bugs. Never saw any corrosion, but there
> was no heat at the leading edge intakes. If the muffler is stainless
> then use stainless pads If the thing is Al then use copper or brass.
> If the shroud is Al and the muffler is stainless or other steel you
> already have a corrosion issue that wont be exacerbated by any kind of
> pad.
> Hope this helps, Paul
> ==================
> At 04:01 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>
>> Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between
>> copper/brass with Aluminum at all.
>> That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper would
>> be a better conductor than Stainless Steel.
>> In this application I have not idea if one would be better than
>> another (SS versus Copper )
>> I found this it matters
>> "1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
>>
>>
>> Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from
>> fire debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results of
>> these tests demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in contact
>> with copper conductors drastically reduces the melting point of
>> copper by alloying. "
>>
>>
>> Dave
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>>
>>
>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>
>>> That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible electrolysis
>>> thing with the previously-mentioned copper scrubbers? It was
>>> mentioned that they really worked well, and I wondered if they
>>> worked well enough to chance risking a possible electrolysis problem
>>> due to the interaction between the copper scrubbers and (my)
>>> aluminum heat muff?
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>> On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane
>>>> <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> Lynn,
>>>>
>>>> On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
>>>>
>>>> 1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal where
>>>> the scrubber
>>>> touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can then
>>>> transfer
>>>> to the air because it has additional surface area.
>>>> 2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the pipe - a
>>>> lot of heat
>>>> is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try holding
>>>> your hand
>>>> within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel hot even
>>>> if you
>>>> don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the scrubber
>>>> metal that is
>>>> not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then
>>>> transfer the
>>>> heat to the air mass flowing by.
>>>> 3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up heat
>>>> from the pipe
>>>> and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix - the
>>>> slowing down of
>>>> the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow
>>>> accomplishes
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>>>>
>>>> Dave S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Heater Pot scrubbers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I knew I'd heard of this someplace....I'm just glad I had heard it
somewhere and forgot it, rather than to have actually DONE it and then
forgot it. : )
Lynn
do not archive
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> I used to have a wad of SOS r pads (steel wool) in my emergency kit.
> That
> In a Ziploc r bag and a 9V battery in another Ziploc. The 9V battery
> shorted with a small piece of steel wool would start the fire you
> could use
> the ziploc bags to carry berries or worms to fish with.
>
> Noel
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:13 AM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Heater Pot scrubbers
>>
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> Steel wool will really go off if used to short across a battery's
>> terminals. Probably best to test this with long jumpers, and
>> not right
>> across the battery...explosive gasses and all. Those of you
>> who are my
>> age will probably recall a commercial product that used this
>> principal
>> to huge success...the photographic flashbulb. They might have used a
>> magnesium "wool".
>>
>> Lynn
>> do not archive
>> On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 04:45 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
>>
>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Smith"
>> <bsmith3163@aol.com>
>>>
>>> I don't know about the stainless steel scrubbing pads you have
>>> mentioned but
>>> have you ever seen steel wool burn? One spark will ignite
>> it like it
>>> was
>>> made out of gasoline. I have carried it before in a survival kit.
>>> One good
>>> spark and you can easily start a camp fire. I have heard that it
>>> burns so
>>> well because of an oil used in the process of making it. I
>> would test
>>> a
>>> piece of what ever you are using just to make sure.
>>>
>>> Brian Smith.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
If you don't set the prop toa degree setting, what dod you use as a
starting datum?
I use an electronic level and sice doing so has made a diff to smoothness
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Subject: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that
is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off
about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)
Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as
well.
I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
at before you changed it ? . I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set
all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I think it
was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater
I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set by RPM and how
it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area. I used the Warp
protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think I made it 1/2
degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to 6150 - 6200 and
my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also dropped the clip
on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all the way rich now.
and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit less in cruise. Temps
here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and our elevation is about
950 asl.
I would set your prop to give 6200 to 6400 rpm static to start and
coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed. Assuming you
have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on
second notch from bottom of needle but if EGTS get over 1200 in cruise I
would drop one more notch. I think you said that you have some EIS or
engine gauges etc ? How is the impulse achieved ? A tiny tach will
confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate. Tiny
Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out overnight.
EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
get him over to help you out as well is possible. Personally I Think you
are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey
some simple issues here to resolve.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 11:44 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
>>You need me to do a movie of different props on 582 Kitfox ? I have 3
>>different ones here and if anyone reads this like Tennessee props or
>>Culver
>>props, I would ask if you would like some good coverage on a Kitfox 582
>>to
>>send me your best prop. I have 2 similar planes to try them on so we can
>>get different results and post them for all to see.
>>
>>If you want bragging rights for your prop -- contact me
>
>Thanks for the offer. I'm still fooling around. My last attempt was to
>increase the pitch to 13.5d at the tip. It was really interesting. I had
>6000 static; looked great. Then I tried to take off. I rolled maybe 50 feet
>and the engine started to wind down. By the time I got to 30mph the engine
>was down to 4400rpm and it was clear I was going nowhere! I tried it twice
>with the exact same results. So it appears I was very near the torque curve
>with my previous 12 degrees.
>
>I'm going through the engine now trying to discern why I would be low on
>horsepower. Jan at JC Propellor is trying to help me. He has a contact with
>a similar configuration who tops out at 102mph. Using Martin Hollman's
>speed program I'd have to have either 3 square feet more drag area, (40%
>more,) or be running 45hp max in my 582, or some combination thereof. It's
>unlikely I have more than 1 square foot more drag area so that would mean I
>was running 54hp max. I've got good compression and good EGT's, but I
>haven't checked the ignition timing, rotary valve timing, or exhaust pipe.
>
>Question for the 582 folk: Is there a way to check the ignition timing
>electronically or with a strobe? I don't want to pull the engine quite yet.
>
>I'm going to post pictures of my exhaust for comparison / evaluation by the
>582 experts. It's definitely NOT Rotax stock.
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals
http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid 0731
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Correct the corrosion issue wont be worse regardless of the pad you choose.
May I suggest the stainless first then try the copper and compare the result.
Paul
==================
At 12:54 PM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>What I have is: no muffler involved...is its sending it's heat to
>the carb, when needed.
>I have stainless steel exhaust pipes, to which I've attached (think
>clam shell, wrap-around) an aluminum heat muff, and later installed
>alum baffles inside that. The current question is what kind of
>material should be used for the scrubbers inside that alum heat
>muff? It sounds like because I already have an alum muff in contact
>with a SS pipe, that the addition of the SS scrubber pads, or
>copper, will not create a problem that is not already there.
>
>Lynn
>On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 10:03 AM, PWilson wrote:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>>Aluminum and copper or brass are close in the electromotive chart.
>>Steel is not a good used with Al. My 84 172 had stainless pads in
>>the air intakes to keep out the bugs. Never saw any corrosion, but
>>there was no heat at the leading edge intakes. If the muffler is
>>stainless then use stainless pads If the thing is Al then use
>>copper or brass. If the shroud is Al and the muffler is stainless
>>or other steel you already have a corrosion issue that wont be
>>exacerbated by any kind of pad.
>>Hope this helps, Paul
>>==================
>>At 04:01 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>
>>>Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between
>>>copper/brass with Aluminum at all.
>>>That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper
>>>would be a better conductor than Stainless Steel.
>>>In this application I have not idea if one would be better than
>>>another (SS versus Copper )
>>>I found this it matters
>>>"1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from
>>>fire debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results
>>>of these tests demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in
>>>contact with copper conductors drastically reduces the melting
>>>point of copper by alloying. "
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:29 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>>
>>>>That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible
>>>>electrolysis thing with the previously-mentioned copper
>>>>scrubbers? It was mentioned that they really worked well, and I
>>>>wondered if they worked well enough to chance risking a possible
>>>>electrolysis problem due to the interaction between the copper
>>>>scrubbers and (my) aluminum heat muff?
>>>>
>>>>Lynn
>>>>On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>Lynn,
>>>>>
>>>>>On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
>>>>>
>>>>>1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal where
>>>>>the scrubber
>>>>>touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can
>>>>>then transfer
>>>>>to the air because it has additional surface area.
>>>>>2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the pipe -
>>>>>a lot of heat
>>>>>is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try
>>>>>holding your hand
>>>>>within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel hot even if you
>>>>>don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the scrubber
>>>>>metal that is
>>>>>not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then
>>>>>transfer the
>>>>>heat to the air mass flowing by.
>>>>>3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up heat
>>>>>from the pipe
>>>>>and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix - the
>>>>>slowing down of
>>>>>the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow accomplishes
>>>>>this.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 25
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Several years ago I opted to change out to the Homebuilders Special dual
fork tailwheel. I got the immediate quieting that others have mentioned. I
also ordered the spare sealed bearing as the word was that the original
bearings were unsealed and un-lubeable.
Well, the unsealed part is true but the un-lubeable part is only partly
true. There is a grease fitting, but to force grease into the bearings you
would have to fill the entire hub cavity between the bearings - probably
about three or four ounces of grease. My guess is that with that much
lubricant in the hub and unsealed, you would eventually throw all that
grease onto the underside of the aft fuselage. Essentially, the original
equipment bearings are junk and the provision for lubrication is haphazard
at best - a real disappointment in an otherwise great tailwheel.
In short, I was getting more tail wheel noise than I was used to so I lifted
the tail and sure enough the bearings were shot. I removed the wheel and
bearings and pressed in the new ones and voila - the replacement bearings
from ACS were 5/8" ID whereas I needed 1/2" ID bearings as exact
replacements for the originals. So much for buying early and keeping them
on hand. If course I didn't check the ID against the axle until I had them
pressed into the hub - dumb me again.
Just a general heads-up here. ACS sold the bearing as an exact replacement
upgade. I know of others that have replaced them. What is your experience
with the replacement bearings? I have ordered new bearings from my favorite
bearing shop and they are a bit more expensive, but I know for sure what I
will be getting - dual contact sealed bearings, 1.375" OD X .5" ID with
retaining ring.
Lowell
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
I have a 582 with 292 hrs and am ready to tear it down for a rebuild. It is a
grey head so I want to get the case machined for the ceramic water pump seal update.
I am looking for a place to do the machine work (prefer the west coast
for shipping reasons) and I need the crank rebuilt. I can do the crank at the
local shop, but need a source for parts. Has anyone found a good source for
rotax parts that has reasonable prices ?
Thanks
--------
Avid C W/582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69331#69331
Message 27
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Lowell
Couldn't you just go down to a commercial bearing supplier and give them the
OD and ID of the bearing you need and have them match up those dimensions
with a good industrial sealed, permanently lubed unit??
Just a thought
Ted
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: October 21, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Tailwheel
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Several years ago I opted to change out to the Homebuilders Special dual
fork tailwheel. I got the immediate quieting that others have mentioned. I
also ordered the spare sealed bearing as the word was that the original
bearings were unsealed and un-lubeable.
Well, the unsealed part is true but the un-lubeable part is only partly
true. There is a grease fitting, but to force grease into the bearings you
would have to fill the entire hub cavity between the bearings - probably
about three or four ounces of grease. My guess is that with that much
lubricant in the hub and unsealed, you would eventually throw all that
grease onto the underside of the aft fuselage. Essentially, the original
equipment bearings are junk and the provision for lubrication is haphazard
at best - a real disappointment in an otherwise great tailwheel.
In short, I was getting more tail wheel noise than I was used to so I lifted
the tail and sure enough the bearings were shot. I removed the wheel and
bearings and pressed in the new ones and voila - the replacement bearings
from ACS were 5/8" ID whereas I needed 1/2" ID bearings as exact
replacements for the originals. So much for buying early and keeping them
on hand. If course I didn't check the ID against the axle until I had them
pressed into the hub - dumb me again.
Just a general heads-up here. ACS sold the bearing as an exact replacement
upgade. I know of others that have replaced them. What is your experience
with the replacement bearings? I have ordered new bearings from my favorite
bearing shop and they are a bit more expensive, but I know for sure what I
will be getting - dual contact sealed bearings, 1.375" OD X .5" ID with
retaining ring.
Lowell
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
I set with Warp gauge originally but never set it to any accurate degree -
just all three blades the same
And I just kept changing accordingly about 3 tries and it was good.
I have used a laser as well and it shine on the wall of hangar 25 feet away
and all three blades hit the same spot.
I know know the Warp is around 10 or 11 degrees and a GSC 68" 15 to 16.5
deg is good as well but remember WARP measure angle at tip and GSC part way
in ( maybe about 75% or way out from root , Where ever the GSC protractor
fits tight.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
> <janderson412@hotmail.com>
>
> If you don't set the prop toa degree setting, what dod you use as a
> starting datum?
> I use an electronic level and sice doing so has made a diff to smoothness
>
>
> From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:55:36 -0400
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
> manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone(
> that is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as
> chopping off about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to
> work ok.)
>
> Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
> times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him
> as well.
> I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
> Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
>
> Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
> at before you changed it ? . I don't measure my WARP with degrees but
> set all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I
> think it was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch
> large dimater I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set
> by RPM and how it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area.
> I used the Warp protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think
> I made it 1/2 degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to
> 6150 - 6200 and my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also
> dropped the clip on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all
> the way rich now. and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit
> less in cruise. Temps here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and
> our elevation is about 950 asl.
>
> I would set your prop to give 6200 to 6400 rpm static to start and
> coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed. Assuming you
> have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on
> second notch from bottom of needle but if EGTS get over 1200 in cruise I
> would drop one more notch. I think you said that you have some EIS or
> engine gauges etc ? How is the impulse achieved ? A tiny tach will
> confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate.
> Tiny Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out
> overnight. EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
>
> Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
> get him over to help you out as well is possible. Personally I Think
> you are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most
> likey some simple issues here to resolve.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>>
>>At 11:44 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
>>>You need me to do a movie of different props on 582 Kitfox ? I have 3
>>>different ones here and if anyone reads this like Tennessee props or
>>>Culver
>>>props, I would ask if you would like some good coverage on a Kitfox 582
>>>to
>>>send me your best prop. I have 2 similar planes to try them on so we
>>>can
>>>get different results and post them for all to see.
>>>
>>>If you want bragging rights for your prop -- contact me
>>
>>Thanks for the offer. I'm still fooling around. My last attempt was to
>>increase the pitch to 13.5d at the tip. It was really interesting. I had
>>6000 static; looked great. Then I tried to take off. I rolled maybe 50
>>feet and the engine started to wind down. By the time I got to 30mph the
>>engine was down to 4400rpm and it was clear I was going nowhere! I tried
>>it twice with the exact same results. So it appears I was very near the
>>torque curve with my previous 12 degrees.
>>
>>I'm going through the engine now trying to discern why I would be low on
>>horsepower. Jan at JC Propellor is trying to help me. He has a contact
>>with a similar configuration who tops out at 102mph. Using Martin
>>Hollman's speed program I'd have to have either 3 square feet more drag
>>area, (40% more,) or be running 45hp max in my 582, or some combination
>>thereof. It's unlikely I have more than 1 square foot more drag area so
>>that would mean I was running 54hp max. I've got good compression and good
>>EGT's, but I haven't checked the ignition timing, rotary valve timing, or
>>exhaust pipe.
>>
>>Question for the 582 folk: Is there a way to check the ignition timing
>>electronically or with a strobe? I don't want to pull the engine quite
>>yet.
>>
>>I'm going to post pictures of my exhaust for comparison / evaluation by
>>the 582 experts. It's definitely NOT Rotax stock.
>>
>>
>>Guy Buchanan
>>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals
> http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid 0731
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Contact a Rotax shop
Bob Robertson in Alberta.
I have his number if you need it .
Also You might want to try the trade in program and get all new everything
except muffler and carbs.
Blue head has the water pump bypass and you could even go to a E box with
starter up front. I have done that and have no issues with W & B
I have nothing against a grey head having flown many of them but if you
going the cheap route rebuilding cranks - well good luck. Get a new one
from rotax or at least get advice from Bob. He will check your ser. number
to see it the old style or new style. With 292 hour you are doing
something right on it but remember all the parts were new when it started at
ZERO time .
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:01 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: need info on 582 rebuilding
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a 582 with 292 hrs and am ready to tear it down for a rebuild. It
> is a grey head so I want to get the case machined for the ceramic water
> pump seal update. I am looking for a place to do the machine work (prefer
> the west coast for shipping reasons) and I need the crank rebuilt. I can
> do the crank at the local shop, but need a source for parts. Has anyone
> found a good source for rotax parts that has reasonable prices ?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Avid C W/582
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69331#69331
>
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: heat muffs and electrolysis |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Lynn -- I will add that my heat shroud that I made is 2024 alum I had
here. I think it was 016 or 020 that came off a wing or something.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> What I have is: no muffler involved...is its sending it's heat to the
> carb, when needed.
> I have stainless steel exhaust pipes, to which I've attached (think clam
> shell, wrap-around) an aluminum heat muff, and later installed alum
> baffles inside that. The current question is what kind of material should
> be used for the scrubbers inside that alum heat muff? It sounds like
> because I already have an alum muff in contact with a SS pipe, that the
> addition of the SS scrubber pads, or copper, will not create a problem
> that is not already there.
>
> Lynn
> On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 10:03 AM, PWilson wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>> Aluminum and copper or brass are close in the electromotive chart. Steel
>> is not a good used with Al. My 84 172 had stainless pads in the air
>> intakes to keep out the bugs. Never saw any corrosion, but there was no
>> heat at the leading edge intakes. If the muffler is stainless then use
>> stainless pads If the thing is Al then use copper or brass. If the shroud
>> is Al and the muffler is stainless or other steel you already have a
>> corrosion issue that wont be exacerbated by any kind of pad.
>> Hope this helps, Paul
>> ==================
>> At 04:01 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>
>>> Lynn , I am not familiar with metal interaction between copper/brass
>>> with Aluminum at all.
>>> That being said for pot scrubbers you would think that copper would be
>>> a better conductor than Stainless Steel.
>>> In this application I have not idea if one would be better than another
>>> (SS versus Copper )
>>> I found this it matters
>>> "1) University of Sherbrooke, Sherbrooke, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract The surface pitting of copper conductors recovered from fire
>>> debris has been reproduced by laboratory tests. The results of these
>>> tests demonstrate that molten aluminum that comes in contact with copper
>>> conductors drastically reduces the melting point of copper by alloying.
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muffs and electrolysis
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>>
>>>> That works for me, Dave....now how about the possible electrolysis
>>>> thing with the previously-mentioned copper scrubbers? It was mentioned
>>>> that they really worked well, and I wondered if they worked well enough
>>>> to chance risking a possible electrolysis problem due to the
>>>> interaction between the copper scrubbers and (my) aluminum heat muff?
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>> On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Dave and Diane wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane
>>>>> <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn,
>>>>>
>>>>> On the heat transfer with the scrubbers - its a multi deal thing....
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Conduction - some of the heat travels through the metal where the
>>>>> scrubber
>>>>> touches the pipe so the scrubber gains some heat which it can then
>>>>> transfer
>>>>> to the air because it has additional surface area.
>>>>> 2) Radiation - with the scrubber metal anywhere near the pipe - a lot
>>>>> of heat
>>>>> is picked up by the scrubber simply through radiation - try holding
>>>>> your hand
>>>>> within a inch of a red hot exhaust pipe - bet it will feel hot even if
>>>>> you
>>>>> don't actually touch it - same thing happens with the scrubber metal
>>>>> that is
>>>>> not touching the pipe, after which the scrubber metal can then
>>>>> transfer the
>>>>> heat to the air mass flowing by.
>>>>> 3) Forced convection - or simply the fact that air picks up heat from
>>>>> the pipe
>>>>> and then distributes it within the air/scrubber matrix - the slowing
>>>>> down of
>>>>> the air and the mixing/spreading/turbulence of the air flow
>>>>> accomplishes
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just Good Old Norwegian Physics......
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Miller" <markrmiller@cableone.net>
You want to talk to Bob Robertson here is his info
Light Engine Service 780-418-4164
Great guy we bought 3 914,s from him and he stands behind his product (know
from experience)
Mark Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: need info on 582 rebuilding
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Contact a Rotax shop
>
> Bob Robertson in Alberta.
> I have his number if you need it .
>
> Also You might want to try the trade in program and get all new everything
> except muffler and carbs.
>
> Blue head has the water pump bypass and you could even go to a E box with
> starter up front. I have done that and have no issues with W & B
> I have nothing against a grey head having flown many of them but if you
> going the cheap route rebuilding cranks - well good luck. Get a new one
> from rotax or at least get advice from Bob. He will check your ser.
> number to see it the old style or new style. With 292 hour you are doing
> something right on it but remember all the parts were new when it started
> at ZERO time .
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:01 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: need info on 582 rebuilding
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
>>
>> I have a 582 with 292 hrs and am ready to tear it down for a rebuild. It
>> is a grey head so I want to get the case machined for the ceramic water
>> pump seal update. I am looking for a place to do the machine work
>> (prefer the west coast for shipping reasons) and I need the crank
>> rebuilt. I can do the crank at the local shop, but need a source for
>> parts. Has anyone found a good source for rotax parts that has
>> reasonable prices ?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --------
>> Avid C W/582
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69331#69331
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 08:44 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>I just in from flying last 2 hours. did about 10 take offs and landings
>when i got back ..... and all were 150 to 200 feet at th most
>wind about 3 knots or less temp 5 C elevation 950 '
>Warp set at 6200 static. cruies at 5800 85 to 88 or so at 500 agl
Dave,
I timed your Kitfox video and got about 7.2 seconds from first
motion to obvious vertical motion. This works out to about 212' to 40mph. I
timed my early morning take-off today at 8.66 seconds. (A little crude
since it's hard to fiddle with the watch while taking off!) This works out
to 254' to 40mph. I'll have to check my measurements, since 254' is not
near as bad as the 540' I originally estimated.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
I am kinda hard headed at times as I have been racing sleds and we run those WAY
harder and longer than anyone in their right mind would run an engine you are
flying behind. With that being said, I feel that if I can rebuild / straighten
cranks in race engines (that are straighter than the NEW factory crank) that
go for 100 miles at a time on the bar (WOT 8,200 RPM+) time after time and
stay together year after year, I am not shy about rebuilding this engine. I am
also not a stupid pilot who takes alot of unnessisary chances with his life
(well ok there have been a few times lol). I dont buy into the arguments that
you have to buy NEW cranks everytime. If you take it down, inspect, mike, etc.
and find it within tolerances and put it back together to specs then I dont
have one second thought about flying behind it.
Just my thoughts
Leni
--------
Avid C W/582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69358#69358
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy --
Put away the slide rule and pace out 100 feet intervals at 100 200 300 400
feet or what ever you llike .
When you break ground you will know where you leave and it not a vidoe cam
will catch it .
I got a few clips today -- let me see if i can get clip put together for
you shorty.
Dave
PS CONGRATS on breaking into the under 300 foot club-- sure beats 700 to
1000 feet eh !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 08:44 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>I just in from flying last 2 hours. did about 10 take offs and landings
>>when i got back ..... and all were 150 to 200 feet at th most
>>wind about 3 knots or less temp 5 C elevation 950 '
>>Warp set at 6200 static. cruies at 5800 85 to 88 or so at 500 agl
>
> Dave,
> I timed your Kitfox video and got about 7.2 seconds from first
> motion to obvious vertical motion. This works out to about 212' to 40mph.
> I timed my early morning take-off today at 8.66 seconds. (A little crude
> since it's hard to fiddle with the watch while taking off!) This works out
> to 254' to 40mph. I'll have to check my measurements, since 254' is not
> near as bad as the 540' I originally estimated.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
you run 100 miles pinned at 8200 rpm ? I call BS....................
plus airplanes run a constant rpm range......... at lower rpm 5500 to 6000
and they are tuned to run in that range with exhaust that aloow for this
power band.
I a ma sure you can blueprint your engine well and try out a 582 and see
how it works. Might be fine ........ but that 500 $ you save you can spend
on new landing gear if it does not work.
I have had sleds that do 120 to 140 mph in 1/8 mile -- no frigging way you
will run 100 miles like that ...sorry.
Your choice -- but call A rotax shop like Bob . Robertson and get him to
explain it to you. He Rotax guru -- i only buy from him.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
>
> I am kinda hard headed at times as I have been racing sleds and we run
> those WAY harder and longer than anyone in their right mind would run an
> engine you are flying behind. With that being said, I feel that if I can
> rebuild / straighten cranks in race engines (that are straighter than the
> NEW factory crank) that go for 100 miles at a time on the bar (WOT 8,200
> RPM+) time after time and stay together year after year, I am not shy
> about rebuilding this engine. I am also not a stupid pilot who takes alot
> of unnessisary chances with his life (well ok there have been a few times
> lol). I dont buy into the arguments that you have to buy NEW cranks
> everytime. If you take it down, inspect, mike, etc. and find it within
> tolerances and put it back together to specs then I dont have one second
> thought about flying behind it.
>
> Just my thoughts
>
> Leni
>
> --------
> Avid C W/582
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69358#69358
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
not here to argue over what I do, but you are welcome to come on a river run with
us for irondog training...not many can hang for the first day...
--------
Avid C W/582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69366#69366
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
ak, Not arguing but it is different world with Rotax in the air
...........
I run in to this all the time and i just throw up my hand -- well great idea
go for it I say.
They always come back for Rotax parts in the end :)
Like i said Your 292 hours did well from new status. Rebuilds are fine too
but in 582 the crank is the weak link as well as water pump seals .
Mind you -- proper antifreeze ( phosphate and silicate free) plus
distilled water will help a lot too.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:02 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
>
> not here to argue over what I do, but you are welcome to come on a river
> run with us for irondog training...not many can hang for the first day...
>
> --------
> Avid C W/582
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69366#69366
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
In a message dated 10/21/2006 8:41:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
akflyer_2000@yahoo.com writes:
I am kinda hard headed at times as I have been racing sleds and we run those
WAY harder and longer than anyone in their right mind would run an engine
you are flying behind. With that being said, I feel that if I can rebuild /
straighten cranks in race engines (that are straighter than the NEW factory
crank) that go for 100 miles at a time on the bar (WOT 8,200 RPM+) time after
time and stay together year after year, I am not shy about rebuilding this
engine. I am also not a stupid pilot who takes alot of unnessisary chances with
his life (well ok there have been a few times lol). I dont buy into the
arguments that you have to buy NEW cranks everytime. If you take it down,
inspect, mike, etc. and find it within tolerances and put it back together to
specs then I dont have one second thought about flying behind it.
Just my thoughts
Leni
I Just had a 300 hour over haul by _www.theultralightplace.com_
(http://www.theultralightplace.com) on my 582 Blue head on a E box .... I have raced
sleds years ago. Being born and raised in Montreal Canada, where the
snowmobile was invented.... everyone did LOL! Anyway, if I was to rebuild
a
sled engine I probably would do it myself and understand where your coming
from. But, going to a pro that ONLY touches aviation Rotax's was my personal
choice for me.
I watched him do his thing and it was well worth every penny. He has many
years of experience and it showed in the details. Not to mention he measured
every part recorded it as if he was working on my warrior 2.
His shop was spotless, organized and very well equipped. And he came with a
reputation before I flew in.
There are other very good aviation Rotax service centers I am sure, but dont
we all speak from our own experiences?
You might want to ask about the differences between a Gray and Blue head
from Rotax.... Also, going to a E box really is a huge improvement and adds
to crank life. I made the leap.
Just my thoughts too
Dave
KF 2 582
Message 39
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|
I also purchased the bearings from the local bearing shop for the same
reason. I was lucky and figured it out before finding out the hard way.
Dee
I know of others that have replaced them. What is your experience
with the replacement bearings? I have ordered new bearings from my
favorite
bearing shop and they are a bit more expensive, but I know for sure what
I
will be getting - dual contact sealed bearings, 1.375" OD X .5" ID with
retaining ring.
Lowell
Do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: How To Fly a Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <michaelgibbs@cox.net>
Dave sez:
> ...The title is not listed in copyrite.gov
In the United States, you do not need to register a copyright with the government
to make it legal, therefore you cannot rely on whether or not it is listed.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 41
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| Subject: | Another video for you guys and GUY !! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy , Here is some footdage from today. Quickly edited to get to you.
I even put ads on there to help out with th massive bandwidth you guys use
:)
Last movie I put up been downloaded 627 times now .
Best Regards,
Dave
Guy do we call you a bit short of 300 now ? :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 08:44 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>I just in from flying last 2 hours. did about 10 take offs and landings
>>when i got back ..... and all were 150 to 200 feet at th most
>>wind about 3 knots or less temp 5 C elevation 950 '
>>Warp set at 6200 static. cruies at 5800 85 to 88 or so at 500 agl
>
> Dave,
> I timed your Kitfox video and got about 7.2 seconds from first
> motion to obvious vertical motion. This works out to about 212' to 40mph.
> I timed my early morning take-off today at 8.66 seconds. (A little crude
> since it's hard to fiddle with the watch while taking off!) This works out
> to 254' to 40mph. I'll have to check my measurements, since 254' is not
> near as bad as the 540' I originally estimated.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Another video for you guys and |
GUY !!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:08 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Another video for you guys and GUY !!
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> Guy , Here is some footdage from today. Quickly edited to get to you.
> I even put ads on there to help out with th massive bandwidth you guys use
> :)
> Last movie I put up been downloaded 627 times now .
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> Guy do we call you a bit short of 300 now ? :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>>
>> At 08:44 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>>>I just in from flying last 2 hours. did about 10 take offs and
>>>landings
>>>when i got back ..... and all were 150 to 200 feet at th most
>>>wind about 3 knots or less temp 5 C elevation 950 '
>>>Warp set at 6200 static. cruies at 5800 85 to 88 or so at 500 agl
>>
>> Dave,
>> I timed your Kitfox video and got about 7.2 seconds from first
>> motion to obvious vertical motion. This works out to about 212' to 40mph.
>> I timed my early morning take-off today at 8.66 seconds. (A little crude
>> since it's hard to fiddle with the watch while taking off!) This works
>> out to 254' to 40mph. I'll have to check my measurements, since 254' is
>> not near as bad as the 540' I originally estimated.
>>
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john perry" <eskflyer@lvcisp.com>
Dave crank is not the weak link the needle bearings are the weak link .
There is no reason not to rebuild the crank and run it . And I call BS on
your not believing on the bar throttle runs . Just because you have not done
it dosent meen it cant be done . I know AK from along way back and he will
tell ya the truth and nuttin but the truth Besides that i use to run rotaxes
in sleds and yes we ran WOT for many many miles and tacked them out all the
time and hmmmm they hung together for years and no issue.
Just my opinion and only mine no one made me say any of this BS.
Fly safe fly low fly slow fly fun fly KITFOX
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 Cbox < better than the e box i do believe . i got the clutch
subbie soon
TD / straight floats
Hot pink ivo inflight
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> ak, Not arguing but it is different world with Rotax in the air
> ...........
> I run in to this all the time and i just throw up my hand -- well great
> idea go for it I say.
>
> They always come back for Rotax parts in the end :)
>
> Like i said Your 292 hours did well from new status. Rebuilds are fine
> too but in 582 the crank is the weak link as well as water pump seals .
> Mind you -- proper antifreeze ( phosphate and silicate free) plus
> distilled water will help a lot too.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:02 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need info on 582 rebuilding
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
>>
>> not here to argue over what I do, but you are welcome to come on a river
>> run with us for irondog training...not many can hang for the first day...
>>
>> --------
>> Avid C W/582
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69366#69366
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | First Flight N422NL |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
It's an airplane!
I just wanted to share my joy with all of you whose encouragement and advice
have kept me working towards this day. A friend of mine who is an A&P, very
experienced pilot and owner of Avian flight center www.avianflight.com was
PIC for the first flight. He reports that the wing and flaperon rigging are
right on but that she needs some right rudder. She is also apparently
under-propped as he could not use more than 1/2 throttle without exceeding
5800 RPM on the 912 ULS and cruised at a blistering 55 mph.
Joel
Model 5 912 ULS GTA CS prop
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and morethen map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: need info on 582 rebuilding |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
ok just to get it back on topic, in the original post I did indeed ask for ROTAX
parts...not cheap aftermarket stuff (remember I said I was not a stupid pilot).
I was just looking for a REASONABLE price source. I know there are a few
out there that are not out to rape you and these are the guys I am looking for.
And to refute the other, there is a very big difference in building an engine to
make 1/8 mile runs that make big hp.... another animal all together to build
one to last and run smooth....
off the box now
Leni
oh yeah... do not archive
--------
Avid C W/582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69386#69386
Message 46
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| Subject: | First Flight N422NL |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Congrads Joel! I was just thinking of those still building as I was test
flying today. All the cold lonely nights in the garage do pay off. Hope
you get to enjoy the ride soon! 38 hours and expecting phase two tommorrow.
Ron NB Ore. 541KF
>From: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: First Flight N422NL
>Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:00:27 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>
>It's an airplane!
>I just wanted to share my joy with all of you whose encouragement and
>advice have kept me working towards this day. A friend of mine who is an
>A&P, very experienced pilot and owner of Avian flight center
>www.avianflight.com was PIC for the first flight. He reports that the wing
>and flaperon rigging are right on but that she needs some right rudder. She
>is also apparently under-propped as he could not use more than 1/2 throttle
>without exceeding 5800 RPM on the 912 ULS and cruised at a blistering 55
>mph.
>
>Joel
>Model 5 912 ULS GTA CS prop
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and morethen map the best
>route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
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Message 47
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Lowell
I had the same experience with the bearing size. I just made a sleeve of 1/2 inch
ID x 5/8 OD steel tubing over the axle. I also noted that the new bearings
did not have a ridge around their outside circumference to trap the wheel between
the bearings so in installed a couple of 1/2 inch fender washers on the
axle also. Just like on a control arm with a ball and socket joint. My recollection
is that the exact replacement statement came from a list member who recommended
them and not from ACS.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message ----
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 2:12:24 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Tailwheel
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Several years ago I opted to change out to the Homebuilders Special dual
fork tailwheel. I got the immediate quieting that others have mentioned. I
also ordered the spare sealed bearing as the word was that the original
bearings were unsealed and un-lubeable.
Well, the unsealed part is true but the un-lubeable part is only partly
true. There is a grease fitting, but to force grease into the bearings you
would have to fill the entire hub cavity between the bearings - probably
about three or four ounces of grease. My guess is that with that much
lubricant in the hub and unsealed, you would eventually throw all that
grease onto the underside of the aft fuselage. Essentially, the original
equipment bearings are junk and the provision for lubrication is haphazard
at best - a real disappointment in an otherwise great tailwheel.
In short, I was getting more tail wheel noise than I was used to so I lifted
the tail and sure enough the bearings were shot. I removed the wheel and
bearings and pressed in the new ones and voila - the replacement bearings
from ACS were 5/8" ID whereas I needed 1/2" ID bearings as exact
replacements for the originals. So much for buying early and keeping them
on hand. If course I didn't check the ID against the axle until I had them
pressed into the hub - dumb me again.
Just a general heads-up here. ACS sold the bearing as an exact replacement
upgade. I know of others that have replaced them. What is your experience
with the replacement bearings? I have ordered new bearings from my favorite
bearing shop and they are a bit more expensive, but I know for sure what I
will be getting - dual contact sealed bearings, 1.375" OD X .5" ID with
retaining ring.
Lowell
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Hub |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
corrected my mistakes, can't type fast.......
If you don't set the prop to a degree setting, what did you use as a
starting datum?
I use an electronic level and since doing so has made a diff to smoothness
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
<janderson412@hotmail.com>
If you don't set the prop toa degree setting, what dod you use as a
starting datum?
I use an electronic level and sice doing so has made a diff to smoothness
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Subject: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy, please post some pics of the Exhaust There is a length in the Rotax
manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that
is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off
about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)
Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many
times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as
well.
I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ?
Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.
Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting. What was it
at before you changed it ? . I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set
all the blades all the same. I did measure last week though and I think it
was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater
I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" ) I set by RPM and how
it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area. I used the Warp
protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same. I think I made it 1/2
degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900 to 6150 - 6200 and
my in flight WOT went from 6600 to 6900 or so. I also dropped the clip
on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch so it all the way rich now.
and egts have come down from 1200+ to 1100 or a bit less in cruise. Temps
here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week. and our elevation is about
950 asl.
I would set your prop to give 6200 to 6400 rpm static to start and
coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed. Assuming you
have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on
second notch from bottom of needle but if EGTS get over 1200 in cruise I
would drop one more notch. I think you said that you have some EIS or
engine gauges etc ? How is the impulse achieved ? A tiny tach will
confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate. Tiny
Tach --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out overnight.
EGT confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.
Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of experience? I would
get him over to help you out as well is possible. Personally I Think you
are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey
some simple issues here to resolve.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 11:44 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
>>You need me to do a movie of different props on 582 Kitfox ? I have 3
>>different ones here and if anyone reads this like Tennessee props or
>>Culver
>>props, I would ask if you would like some good coverage on a Kitfox 582
>>to
>>send me your best prop. I have 2 similar planes to try them on so we can
>>get different results and post them for all to see.
>>
>>If you want bragging rights for your prop -- contact me
>
>Thanks for the offer. I'm still fooling around. My last attempt was to
>increase the pitch to 13.5d at the tip. It was really interesting. I had
>6000 static; looked great. Then I tried to take off. I rolled maybe 50 feet
>and the engine started to wind down. By the time I got to 30mph the engine
>was down to 4400rpm and it was clear I was going nowhere! I tried it twice
>with the exact same results. So it appears I was very near the torque curve
>with my previous 12 degrees.
>
>I'm going through the engine now trying to discern why I would be low on
>horsepower. Jan at JC Propellor is trying to help me. He has a contact with
>a similar configuration who tops out at 102mph. Using Martin Hollman's
>speed program I'd have to have either 3 square feet more drag area, (40%
>more,) or be running 45hp max in my 582, or some combination thereof. It's
>unlikely I have more than 1 square foot more drag area so that would mean I
>was running 54hp max. I've got good compression and good EGT's, but I
>haven't checked the ignition timing, rotary valve timing, or exhaust pipe.
>
>Question for the 582 folk: Is there a way to check the ignition timing
>electronically or with a strobe? I don't want to pull the engine quite yet.
>
>I'm going to post pictures of my exhaust for comparison / evaluation by the
>582 experts. It's definitely NOT Rotax stock.
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
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