---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/24/06: 66 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:38 AM - Re: Show me the FAR... (84KF) 2. 04:43 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Don Smythe) 3. 05:10 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Dave) 4. 07:00 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Lowell Fitt) 5. 07:12 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Don Smythe) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub (Noel Loveys) 7. 08:29 AM - Door hardware (Gary Olson) 8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Rebuilding 582's (Noel Loveys) 9. 08:51 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Noel Loveys) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: Door hardware (Bradley M Webb) 11. 09:18 AM - Possible Ethanol solution? (GypsyBeeInnkeepers) 12. 09:26 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Guy Buchanan) 13. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Show me the FAR... (Guy Buchanan) 14. 09:27 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Noel Loveys) 15. 09:44 AM - Re: Door hardware (Guy Buchanan) 16. 09:44 AM - Propellers (JC Propellerdesign) 17. 10:06 AM - Re: Show me the FAR... (Bob) 18. 10:25 AM - Re: Possible Ethanol solution? (Brian Rodgers) 19. 10:45 AM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Don Smythe) 20. 11:02 AM - Re: Propellers (Don Smythe) 21. 11:26 AM - Re: Door hardware (Lynn Matteson) 22. 11:43 AM - Re: Door hardware (Fox5flyer) 23. 12:18 PM - Re: Propellers (Dave) 24. 12:20 PM - heat muff report (Lynn Matteson) 25. 12:36 PM - Re: heat muff report (Dave) 26. 12:56 PM - Re: Show me the FAR... (84KF) 27. 01:05 PM - Re: Show me the FAR... (84KF) 28. 01:09 PM - Re Propellers (JC Propellerdesign) 29. 01:11 PM - Re: Propellers (Don Smythe) 30. 01:27 PM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Lowell Fitt) 31. 01:40 PM - Re: heat muff report (Algate) 32. 01:43 PM - heat muff report (Fox5flyer) 33. 02:08 PM - Re: Re Propellers (Dave) 34. 02:11 PM - Re: Show me the FAR... (84KF) 35. 02:12 PM - Re: heat muff report (Lynn Matteson) 36. 02:20 PM - Re: Prop Blade Length (crazyivan) 37. 02:25 PM - Re: heat muff report (Dave) 38. 02:37 PM - Re: Propellers (Guy Buchanan) 39. 02:37 PM - Re: Propellers (Guy Buchanan) 40. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: 582 rebuilding BRAVO (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 41. 02:44 PM - Kitfox passenger report...2nd hand (Lynn Matteson) 42. 02:57 PM - Re: Propellers (Dave) 43. 03:12 PM - Re: heat muff report (Lynn Matteson) 44. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Show me the FAR... (Lynn Matteson) 45. 03:37 PM - Re: heat muff report (Lynn Matteson) 46. 04:13 PM - Re: Possible Ethanol solution? (Noel Loveys) 47. 04:34 PM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Noel Loveys) 48. 04:46 PM - Some messages are too wide for my computer screen (Tom Jones) 49. 04:57 PM - Origin of Cockpit... only slightly off topic (Noel Loveys) 50. 05:09 PM - Re: Propellers (Noel Loveys) 51. 05:21 PM - Re: heat muff report (Noel Loveys) 52. 05:27 PM - Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen (Lynn Matteson) 53. 05:30 PM - Re: Re Propellers (Noel Loveys) 54. 05:39 PM - OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" (Lynn Matteson) 55. 06:06 PM - Re: heat muff report (Fox5flyer) 56. 06:17 PM - Re: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie (Noel Loveys) 57. 06:17 PM - Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen (Matt Dralle) 58. 06:24 PM - Re: heat muff report (Noel Loveys) 59. 06:28 PM - Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen (Tom Jones) 60. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Prop Blade Length (ron schick) 61. 06:46 PM - Re: Re Propellers (Dave) 62. 07:14 PM - Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen (84KF) 63. 07:27 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" (Aerobatics@aol.com) 64. 08:13 PM - Re: Door hardware (dcsfoto) 65. 08:18 PM - Re: Propellers (Guy Buchanan) 66. 11:10 PM - Here is the FAR (EMAproducts@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: "84KF" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" Read this for what it says, not what someone else told you it "means" In order to save readers time and effort I have consolidated the following from the FAA Final Rule. Nothing has been intentionally omitted that would contradict any statement referenced below The following excerpts are verbatim from the Final Rule Note:I have added the page number where the text may be found, all else is cut and pasted from original document Page 109: 1.1 General definitions. Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than (i) 660 pounds (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft; (ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or (iii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level. (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider. (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircrafts maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. (5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot. (6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered. (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider. (8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider. (9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane. (10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin. (11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider. (12) Fixed or repositionable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider. Page 4: This rule does not change existing aircraft certification or maintenance regulations for aircraft already issued an airworthiness certificate, such as a standard, primary, or special certificate (e.g., experimental amateur-built and experimental exhibition aircraft). However, as discussed in the section-by-section preamble discussion for 1.1, Definition of Light-Sport Aircraft, a sport pilot can operate an aircraft meeting the light-sport aircraft definition in 1.1, regardless of the airworthiness certificate issued. Page 22: Definition of Light-sport aircraft Overview The FAA believes that there might be confusion concerning what airworthiness certificates apply to light-sport aircraft. Therefore, the FAA is clarifying this issue. A sport pilot may operate any aircraft that meets the definition in 1.1 of a light-sport aircraft, regardless of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. An aircraft that meets the light-sport aircraft definition may have any airworthiness certificate that may be issued for an aircraft, such as standard, special, primary, or experimental amateur-built aircraft. An aircraft that meets the light-sport aircraft definition and holds a standard airworthiness certificate must be operated and maintained in accordance with the limitations of that airworthiness certificate. Page 22: Commenters also requested clarification as to how compliance with some of the parameters used to define light-sport aircraft will be determined. The most frequently cited parameters were maximum takeoff weight, maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power VH, and stall speeds VS1 (without lift enhancing devices) and VS0 (landing configuration). As discussed under 1.1, the consensus standards will address details on methods of demonstrating compliance. Page 24 Paragraph (1) Maximum certificated takeoff weight Some commenters stated that lacking a definition of maximum takeoff weight, aircraft with fairly high performance characteristics could meet the definition of light-sport aircraft by limiting the approved weight and payload of the airplane. The FAA considers this a valid concern and has provided some additional constraints on the weight as detailed below. The maximum weight of a light-sport aircraft is the sum of: (1) Aircraft empty weight; (2) Weight of the passenger for each seat installed; (3) Baggage allowance for each passenger; and (4) Full fuel, including a minimum of the half-hour fuel reserve required for day visual flight rules in 91.151 (a)(1). Page 24: A few commenters stated that the FAA should use weight other than maximum takeoff weight as a limiting condition. Alternatives suggested by commenters included aircraft empty weight, or maximum payload. The FAA believes that the maximum take-off weight is an appropriate limiting parameter for light-sport aircraft, because it is an objective measure that can easily be determined when the aircraft configuration is specified. Page 33 The words, since its original certification has continued to meet the following are added to the introductory text of 1.1. The reasons for this are discussed in the section titled Modification of Type-Certificated Aircraft to Meet the Light-Sport Aircraft Definition. The FAA is restructuring the maximum takeoff weight requirements in paragraph (1) of the definition of light-sport aircraft. In addition, the FAA is changing the maximum takeoff weight from 1,232 pounds (560 kilograms) to not more than 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) and is adding 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft designed for operation on water. -------- Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69836#69836 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:58 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Lowell my friend, Thanks but I want to know what took you are so long to check this? Ha.... I only reported it about 5 years ago. It was then that I called Warp with your same findings. This is where they will say, "NO WAY, IMPOSSIBLE". Rather than some get in a huff about this thread, simply do like Lowell did and check your prop and report the findings. If every warp prop is the same way then warp would have to admit it. Whether they do or not, at least the List (a select few) would benefit. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > All checked the same there. And the same to about three inches from the > tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full bubble witdth > flat at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my findings, but I > am glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:09 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Don, Having found this in the first place did you try different settings? e.g. setting at the 75% the same pitch and having different degree settings at tip and was there any noticeable difference in performance and/or vibration ? I will be doing some testing here next day or two I hope. We under heavy snow right now but looks ok for tomorrow so far . Also mine does seem to work ok now an maybe in fact it not even adjust optimally. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Lowell my friend, > Thanks but I want to know what took you are so long to check this? > Ha.... I only reported it about 5 years ago. It was then that I called > Warp with your same findings. This is where they will say, "NO WAY, > IMPOSSIBLE". > Rather than some get in a huff about this thread, simply do like Lowell > did and check your prop and report the findings. If every warp prop is > the same way then warp would have to admit it. Whether they do or not, at > least the List (a select few) would benefit. > > Don Smythe > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lowell Fitt" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:10 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >> >> All checked the same there. And the same to about three inches from the >> tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full bubble witdth >> flat at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my findings, but >> I am glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:00 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Don, Sorry for the five year delay. My excuse was that I already pitched from well within the tip - dumb me. I just checked the prop manual and sure enough I have been doing it all wrong all these years. My guess in all this is that the nickel leading edge has some memory and when it is bonded to the prop blade, the only place it can unwind and have any influence is at the thin tip. Maybe this is another catagory we could add to the database - those that are flying with 90 percent of one blade 2 degrees out of pitch. :-) Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:42 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Lowell my friend, > Thanks but I want to know what took you are so long to check this? > Ha.... I only reported it about 5 years ago. It was then that I called > Warp with your same findings. This is where they will say, "NO WAY, > IMPOSSIBLE". > Rather than some get in a huff about this thread, simply do like Lowell > did and check your prop and report the findings. If every warp prop is > the same way then warp would have to admit it. Whether they do or not, at > least the List (a select few) would benefit. > > Don Smythe > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lowell Fitt" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:10 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >> >> All checked the same there. And the same to about three inches from the >> tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full bubble witdth >> flat at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my findings, but >> I am glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:31 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" I think I stated this earlier but, I placed a steel machinist rule against the hub and marked off every two inches toward the tips (all three blades). I then set the pitch of all three blades at the 20" mark to 26 degrees (I'm using memory on those numbers). Once done with that, I went back and checked the pitch of each blade on each of the 2" marks and recorded. Every recorded pitch angle was very close until I got to the last 3" and then saw angle differences up to 1 or more degrees. Again, I did not notice any vibration difference. Performance will be determined as to what angle you pitch not where you pitch at. As a second thought, I never used the tips as an adjustment point and flew the plane so I don't know if it might affect vibration or not.. Don Smythe .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > Don, > > Having found this in the first place did you try different settings? > e.g. setting at the 75% the same pitch and having different degree > settings at tip and was there any noticeable difference in performance > and/or vibration ? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:01 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I think I mentioned I have the three blade Ivo-UL with the electric adjust. I try not to change the pitch to much in flight. I might thicken it a tad if I'm on a longer trip. Most of the flying is in an out of fishing holes and I'm always taking off or landing. I do however find the Ivo very smooth. If I can ever convince my self that I need a 582 "E" box I'll get the GSC/Warp ( A GSC adjustable hub with Warp blades) If I get that set up I may go with a little longer blade too. In the mean time I have a number of people looking out for a Mercedes Smart car. In Canada all the smart cars are Diesel. They can be upped to 65 Hp very easily and are almost the same weight as the 582. I've also been playing with the idea of an HAC. Have a look at that it's so simple it's almost obscene. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:48 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > Same on both counts . if you go for higher static you will > run over 7000 > WOT and generally too high egts. > Over all Warp a decent prop I have found. I will examine > what Don brought > up and and see if there is any differance. > My only beef now is i get about 6900 WOT will static I am > just barely 6200. > Needle in carbs set full rich. > I run about 102 to 103 mph WOT on wheels and about 94 to 95 > on Amphibs. > > I just got a new GSC in 68 inch blade and will try it soon > too. I have > always found GSC a good performing prop. I heard once the > Jimmy Franklin > refused to use a Ivo on that Skystar video and used the GSC > cause of the > flex in a dive might hit the nose cowl. Rumor or truth ? > Mythbusters > only know for sure LOL > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:28 PM > Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > What is your static rpm WOT? Should be around 6200 on > wheels ..6400 on > > floats. > > > > Noel > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave > >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 7:53 PM > >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > >> > >> > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > >> > >> Noel, > >> > >> I am going to do some more measuring on the WARP and see > >> what happens if I > >> alter it . > >> No one has commented on the movie but how mine compare with > >> others ? At > >> least I know mine fairly well and any major changes will be > >> easy to detect . > >> > >> I think it would be nice to be able to optimize the prop by > >> comparing and > >> setting all the blade the same which I thought they were al ready. > >> > >> The Warp blades are heavy and I cannot see them twisting any > >> more than a > >> wooden prop. If you want to see twist look at IVOs . They > >> are popular for > >> some reason and I think allot is the price and they do in > >> fact work fairly > >> well. > >> > >> Only way to figure this puzzle out is to do it . and Guy , > >> I sure hope > >> you not more concerned about settings now . :) > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Noel Loveys" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 5:50 PM > >> Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > >> > >> > >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > >> > >> > > >> > Most props are designed so the greatest thrust is developed > >> about 2/3 the > >> > way out from the centre to the tip of the blades. This is > >> usually the > >> > widest part of the blade too. The pitch of the blade > >> should thin as you > >> > approach the blade tip as the tip actually travels further > >> per revolution. > >> > Because it also travels faster the tips are closer to > >> stalling at their > >> > subsoni8c speeds. That's just another reason to expect > >> the tips to be > >> > thinner pitch. > >> > > >> > In the case of Warp blades... These are composite blades > >> and probably do > >> > not > >> > act the same way wood or metal blades will. I guess it is > >> possible that > >> > the > >> > tips actually thin out the pitch under load. > >> > > >> > One thing I'm sure of is Warp themselves specify measuring > >> the prop angle > >> > at > >> > the tips, for their blades that is the way to do it. > >> > > >> > Noel > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> >> John Anderson > >> >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 4:10 AM > >> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> >> Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Why do Warpdrive insist on measuring at the tip?? I have > >> >> always done so as > >> >> the instruction says and have a nice smooth prop, 72" 3 > >> blade. John A. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> From: Guy Buchanan > >> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> >> Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Hub > >> >> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:17:21 -0700 > >> >> > >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > >> >> > >> >> At 10:45 AM 10/22/2006, you wrote: > >> >> >Don, The WARP protractor fits nicely on the tip and I > >> have had good > >> >> >success > >> >> >doing it there. are you saying that the blades are not all > >> >> uniform from > >> >> >Root to tip ? > >> >> > >> >> Mine was off about 1/2-3/4 degree. I first set the tip, then > >> >> shifted to 3/4 > >> >> and equalized, trying to hit the mean of all three blades. > >> >> That way I could > >> >> still use the tip angle as reference. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Guy Buchanan > >> >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to > Bob Ducar. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ > >> >> Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ > >> >> http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:04 AM PST US From: Gary Olson Subject: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I am making the switch from the conventional door to the bubble door on my S7. My kit came with the standard bottom single latch. These work somewhat OK for the standard door but I would prefer something a little better. I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any other ideas or experiences out there? Thanks. Gary --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:37 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rebuilding 582's --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Oops I should have stated for certified aircraft and their appliances. Home built or to be correct for TC it's "Amateur Built" is the same as the states. When I got so used to working one way I sometimes forget not everyone has to operate by the rules I have to use at work. Noel Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:47 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rebuilding 582's > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > > > In Canada it is actually illegal to use any measuring > equipment on an > > aircraft that is not calibrated. That includes Torque Wrenches, > > Voltmeters, > > Barfield testers, micrometers... He** even pressure gauges > to inflate > > tires > > with nitrogen have to be calibrated. Each tool carries a > sticker with the > > calibration data on it. > > I guess Canada is not the place for me. I'd be in the > slammer by now for > sure. > > In the US, experimental aircraft can be maintained and even > built by their > owners and any old screwdriver or wrench will suffice. I > have a pretty cool > torque wrench that I calibrated against another torqe wrench > and it was > right on the money. Maybe there is something I am missing here. > > Lowell > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:28 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Lowell: Regardless of where I think the measurements should be taken, I would take the measurements where the manufacturer says to ( my AME training again). If GSC says to measure their blades at .61 the length then on the GSC that's where I take the measurements. If the Warp people say to measure their blades at the tip then I have to assume they have their reason for measuring that way and that's where I would measure the Warp blade. I do however find it interesting that they measure their pitch at that location. The last post I made on the length of the blade was in response to someone who thought the tips of the blade did very little... Of course if that were true they would shorten the blade wouldn't they. Noel Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:41 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > Well, Since my airplane is just outside the side door, I did > the deed. I > just checked the prop pitch. I usually pitch my Warp taper > at the inboard > end of the nickel leading edge - the same as everyone else I > have talked to. > > All checked the same there. And the same to about three > inches from the > tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full > bubble witdth flat > at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my > findings, but I am > glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. > Kudos to Don > and his aeronautical engineer friend. > > Are you suggesting that the terminal two inches is the major > player in prop > efficiency and smoothness? And a full bubble width - 2 > degrees out of pitch > is better at the fat of the blade than the final inch or two > of the tip? > Hoo Boy! > > Won't argue the merits of blade length here. I thought we > were talking > about blade pitch and where to put the protracter. > > Lowell > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 4:08 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > Hoo boy! > > > > Just try putting a prop that is two inches longer or > shorter for that > > matter, on your plane before you say the last 2 inches do > very little. > > Don't forget the last two inches travel the fastest and travel the > > furthest. > > > > On seaplanes you will find the most pitting on the tips of > the blades > > where > > spray erodes the leading edges. On metal blades dressing > the pits out to > > an > > extent will smooth out the prop and increase thrust. On composite > > propellers filling the pits with epoxy and then dressing back to the > > original surfaces will do the same thing. > > > > Noel > > > > > > who cares about the last 2 inches (tips) that do very little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:15 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Door hardware Check out my latches on www.sportflight.com , under Gotta Haves. Not sure if works with your doors, but go have a look. They cost all of $10 locally, and work very well. The leather washers are the key to making them stay. Bradley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Olson Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I am making the switch from the conventional door to the bubble door on my S7. My kit came with the standard bottom single latch. These work somewhat OK for the standard door but I would prefer something a little better. I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any other ideas or experiences out there? Thanks. Gary _____ Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much much more: --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:54 AM PST US From: GypsyBeeInnkeepers Subject: Kitfox-List: Possible Ethanol solution? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: GypsyBeeInnkeepers With all this concern about ethanol eating our fuel tanks and rubber seals maybe we should be looking into diesel power.? What'a an HAC? Not a High Altitude Compensator I'll bet? Rex Colorado Noel Loveys wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > In the mean time I have a number >of people looking out for a Mercedes Smart car. In Canada all the smart >cars are Diesel. They can be upped to 65 Hp very easily and are almost the >same weight as the 582. > >I've also been playing with the idea of an HAC. Have a look at that it's so >simple it's almost obscene. > >Noel > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:12 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 06:59 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >My guess in all this is that the nickel leading edge has some memory and >when it is bonded to the prop blade, the only place it can unwind and have >any influence is at the thin tip. I'm got about 1/2 bubble width out, with no nickel leading edge. I suspect it's the usual problem with thick composite laminates. When you transition from thick to thin it's easy to have problems maintaining symmetry in the laminate. Builders typically use very thick plies to make the laminating faster and a little asymmetry in the bias ply trimming, or a little angle to the uni's and you get warps. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:13 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 03:37 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >1.1 General definitions. >Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or >powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet >the following: I dug out my aircraft log and discovered the following two passages provided by my Designated (by the FAA) Airworthiness Representative when my experimental aircraft was "certified": "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope and detail of FAR Part 43 Appendix D, all systems have been operationally checked and the aircraft is found to be in condition for safe operation and eligible for the airworthiness certificate requested." Signed Guy E. Buchanan, PP. XXX-XX-XXXX "I find that the aircraft meets the requirements for the certification requested and have issued a Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitation dated: 6/30/06. Next inspection due 6/07" Signed John S. Xxxxxxxx, DARF-XXXXXX-XX I also found that on my "Application For U.S. Airworthiness Certificate" Form 8130-6 (10/04) U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration, box "II. CERTIFICATION REQUESTED" lists among many entries "A.1 STANDARD AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" and "B.9 SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE: LIGHT SPORT AIRPLANE" and "B.4.2 SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE: EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT", which is what my aircraft is "certified" under. I look forward to your discovery of the definition of "certification" wherein the FAA limits it specifically to "STANDARD AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE". Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:59 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Jus curious ... Do all the blades have a consistent difference of pitch at the tips or does the difference vary with the blade?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Don Smythe > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:41 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > I think I stated this earlier but, I placed a steel machinist > rule against > the hub and marked off every two inches toward the tips (all > three blades). > I then set the pitch of all three blades at the 20" mark to > 26 degrees (I'm > using memory on those numbers). Once done with that, I went back and > checked the pitch of each blade on each of the 2" marks and > recorded. Every > recorded pitch angle was very close until I got to the last > 3" and then saw > angle differences up to 1 or more degrees. > Again, I did not notice any vibration difference. > Performance will be > determined as to what angle you pitch not where you pitch at. > As a second > thought, I never used the tips as an adjustment point and > flew the plane so > I don't know if it might affect vibration or not.. > > Don Smythe > . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > > > Don, > > > > Having found this in the first place did you try different settings? > > e.g. setting at the 75% the same pitch and having > different degree > > settings at tip and was there any noticeable difference in > performance > > and/or vibration ? > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:40 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door hardware --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 08:27 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any other ideas or >experiences out there? Thanks. I couldn't use Murle's. Tried them. My doors were too far from the sills. I guess I could have reworked the hinges but I was already painted. (I could also have bent the door frame, but that looked, shall we say, "crude".) Instead I made my own handles using some of Murle's parts. In the true spirit of home-building they cost a lot more and took a long time to make but they look and work great! I'll try to post pictures. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:46 AM PST US From: "JC Propellerdesign" Subject: Kitfox-List: Propellers Hi This is my first post on this list. It seems that we have a good amount of knowledge collected in this group. I want to share my opinions on prop's Propeller. I often hear that longer blades is always better, well I say that optimal blade length is best, and it is better if we can keep them that long as long as it is possible. Why does some say longer is better then? mostly hearsay I think, and some testing where they tie a scale between the rear bumper of the truck and the plane and test the STATIC THRUST, here we come into the optimal diameter, the higher speed the smaller the optimal diameter will be! so at zero forward speed a bigger diameter is better, until the sonic wave drag eats up the power that is. The big diameter force us to use less pitch to get the RPM, High pitch can lead to that the blade stall or cavitate at zero forward speed, and the propeller turn faster when it cavitate just as the vacuum cleaner motor do when we block the hose, the impeller/propeller is working in an vacuum! when we start to move forward the angle between blade and relative air is reduced making the propeller gradually unstalled, increasing the power needed to turn it. (ask Guy about this) If you are on the back side of the torque curve then ... This effect the result we got from static test, big diameter low pitch = not stalled = high static thrust, small diameter high pitch = more or less stalled = low static thrust. Except for on the top of an stall turn, we don't fly at zero forward speed. Thrust is = Power times efficiency divided with speed. So the faster we fly we will see less thrust, this reducing thrust is coming from air going throe the prop disk at a higher speed, The prop wash have to be faster then the forward speed, so the faster we go a smaller prop disk is necessary to "squeeze" out the "jet" of air from the power we have. The efficiency increase with speed but not to that amount that it increase thrust with increased forward speed. If we want the shortest take off distance, we optimize the diameter for the lift off speed! it is just before lift off we cover the most runway per second, not at zero speed. If we want best climb rate we optimize it for that speed. (Vy) If we want best cruise or top speed we ... Ok. What effect the optimal diameter? Except for speed, it is effected by the RPM and the HP. Also the rest of the propeller, like blade thickness, blade width and Nr of blades. The pitch and pitch distribution is also important. The center of thrust and peak of thrust is said to be at 70-75% of the radii, and this "center" is also used as reference for pitch when we buy or compeer propellers. Talking about Warp prop's if the 75% station is where we have the peak in thrust, to get aerodynamic balance it must be better to use that station as set point when it looks like the blades have some differences at the outer inches, Why are they not uniform? Pitch. What pitch is best? (=same question as what airplane is best) The pitch will vary some with the diameter used. Or compensate for diameter. On a standard purpose propeller (not Climb or Cruise but in-between) I have found if the diameter is correct the back side of blade (at 75%) is in line with the relative air. On a Climb prop the angle of the blade will be little less then the incoming air and a Cruise prop little more angle, best efficiency is where the airfoil have it's best L/D (about 2-3 deg on most common prop airfoils) but that prop will not always be the most practical. An example. if we cruise at 88 mph and the prop is turning at 1935 RPM the relative air is 88 * 1055.77 = 92908 inch/min / 1935 RPM = 48" pitch if the diameter is 68" the angle at 75% radii is = 68 * pi * 0.75 = 160,22, 48 / 160,22 = 0.29958 tan = 16.68 deg At the tip it will be 12.66 deg and at 50% radii it will be 24.2 deg When we buy a prop the blade twist is (hopefully) optimized for an specific speed / RPM / diameter. Called VnD Jan Carlsson www.jcpropellerdesign.com Ps. on the propeller tests made by NACA using on the ground adjustable blade, they are often made so that they have a uniform pitch distribution from tip to about 40% when the 75% station is at 15 deg. so when turned to greater angle the pitch will be higher at tip then the 40% station. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: "Bob" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob" Your question was: Can anyone tell me where to find the FAR that says as a PVT Pilot I CANNOT fly my Kitfox V under the new Sport Pilot rules. (In other words, after my current medical expires) The answer isn't in the certification rules for the airplane, it's in the Part 61 rules about you. Starting with respect to your existing status, Part 61.3 states that you have to have a VALID pilot certificate. Lose your medical by expiration or any other means and your private certificate is meaningless by itself (61.3 and 61.11 use more words to say this). To fly Sport Pilot requires a certificate under 61.5, which is a different animal. You don't automatically receive a Sport certificate, you have to apply for it. This assumes that you meet the Part 61.3(c) giving the medical requirements (not having been revoked, having a 3rd at last physical, etc) and Part 61.23, which goes into more detail. You sound frustrated, so please don't shoot the messenger, I post this hoping it helps in understanding. I'll echo the others, in suggesting a talk with the FSDO for further reading of the regs, because they also have to live to their Inspector's Orders, which basically are interpretations and how to apply the rules. Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69923#69923 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:50 AM PST US From: "Brian Rodgers" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Possible Ethanol solution? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" Heck, let's chuck it all and focus our energy on developing really big rubber bands....... ----- Original Message ----- From: "GypsyBeeInnkeepers" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Possible Ethanol solution? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: GypsyBeeInnkeepers > > With all this concern about ethanol eating our fuel tanks and rubber > seals maybe we should be looking into diesel power.? > What'a an HAC? Not a High Altitude Compensator I'll bet? > Rex > Colorado > > Noel Loveys wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > In the mean time I have a number > >of people looking out for a Mercedes Smart car. In Canada all the smart > >cars are Diesel. They can be upped to 65 Hp very easily and are almost the > >same weight as the 582. > > > >I've also been playing with the idea of an HAC. Have a look at that it's so > >simple it's almost obscene. > > > >Noel > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:54 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" I'm not sure I quite understand the question but, when I checked mine I simply took all the readings and compared the difference. For instance, if I measured at 22" and got 24 degrees 24-1/4 degrees and 23-3/4 that's a total max difference of 1/2 degree. At the tips I might have seen 12 degrees 12-3/4 degrees and 14 degrees. That's a max error of 2 degrees. I did not make any determination that any one blade was causing the error. Besides, all three blades tracked very close out to the tips. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > Jus curious ... Do all the blades have a consistent difference of pitch > at > the tips or does the difference vary with the blade?? > > Noel ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:50 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Jan, From looking at your web site I'd say you know a bit about props. We welcome the post. You ask, "why are they not uniform". First off, we ("I") might be looking at this situation with too big a magnifying glass. Maybe the pitch difference of 1-2 degrees at the tips is acceptable. I just know that mine ran true until that last little bit. Warp seems to imply that they use the tips as a reference point so that Warp users would all be united when discussing pitch angle. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: JC Propellerdesign To: Kitfox-List@matronics.com Talking about Warp prop's if the 75% station is where we have the peak in thrust, to get aerodynamic balance it must be better to use that station as set point when it looks like the blades have some differences at the outer inches, Why are they not uniform? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door hardware From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I installed the double-pin latch that came with my 1994 Kitfox IV. I think this was an option (can't say, as I bought the kit third-hand) when they came out. I love it...it is secure, and feels solid when closed and latched. See if John and Debra offer this option. Lynn On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Gary Olson wrote: > I am making the switch from the conventional door to the bubble door > on my S7.My kit came with the standard bottom single latch. These > work somewhat OK for the standard door but I would prefer something a > little better. I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any > other ideas or experiences out there? Thanks. > Gary ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:01 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I have the Williams door latch. It's ultra simple, but works fine. Of course if somebody really wants to get into the cockpit the latch isn't going to make much difference. I recommend it. Deke still wondering why it's called the cockpit ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Olson To: Builder Hotline Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I am making the switch from the conventional door to the bubble door on my S7. My kit came with the standard bottom single latch. These work somewhat OK for the standard door but I would prefer something a little better. I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any other ideas or experiences out there? Thanks. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. --> http://forums.matronics.com http://wiki.matronics.com =========== ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:32 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Ok on my Warp I did a quick peek before lunch and he is what I got............ I used a GSC protractor and it slides on the warp about 7 inches in from tip all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx. --note the prop length I measuring is from the centre of hub to outside of prop, But the actual blades are not 34 inches but shorter because of the large hub diameter. Do we measure from centre of hub ? Actual inner end of blade ? or in from outer tip of blade ? So what is odd is that I think my GSC numbers are pretty close to these figures in degrees but not sure how far on GSC prop it goes. Jan, Don and anyone -- Lowell you too since you got 2 degree variation but not at same station...... I think it worth a shot to set all blades the same? But if so what is the exact point to do it at ? and should I first chart out the degrees are different lengths on prop? e.g. every 2 inches in from tip ? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Jan, From looking at your web site I'd say you know a bit about props. We welcome the post. You ask, "why are they not uniform". First off, we ("I") might be looking at this situation with too big a magnifying glass. Maybe the pitch difference of 1-2 degrees at the tips is acceptable. I just know that mine ran true until that last little bit. Warp seems to imply that they use the tips as a reference point so that Warp users would all be united when discussing pitch angle. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: JC Propellerdesign To: Kitfox-List@matronics.com Talking about Warp prop's if the 75% station is where we have the peak in thrust, to get aerodynamic balance it must be better to use that station as set point when it looks like the blades have some differences at the outer inches, Why are they not uniform? ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:33 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru 2200 engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped around the exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior to where the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in diameter, and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was suggested on this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow down the passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it entered the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 degrees F. OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with the SS pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the aluminum pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" behind the respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would think, after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before entering the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads for SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, head rack, etc. In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I would have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru exhaust system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... Lynn Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:56 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? Well maybe now that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his plane should be called..................................................................... the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot > scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless > steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru 2200 > engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped around the > exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior to where > the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in diameter, > and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was suggested on > this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow down the > passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it entered > the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: > > At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 degrees F. > OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with the SS > pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the aluminum > pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" behind the > respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would think, > after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before entering > the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads for > SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, head > rack, etc. > > In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I would > have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru exhaust > system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... > > > Lynn > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:36 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: "84KF" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" OH I beg to differ on this. As a the holder of a Private Pilot certificate who has never been denied a medical and who has a valid drivers license I would only be restricting my flying to Sport Pilot privliges. I just let my current medical expire, and fly AS a Sport pilot is allowed. This IS allowed. Research it. I do not need a Sport Pilot Certificate. Yes, my choice of aircraft is limited but so what? My Private Pilot Cert is always valid (unless surrendered, revolked, etc...) I may not always remain "Current", but it never expires, even if my medical does Read 61.19c (c) Other pilot certificates. A pilot certificate (other than a student pilot certificate) issued under this part is issued without a specific expiration date. The holder of a pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license may exercise the privileges of that certificate only while that person's foreign pilot license is effective. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4d78b30e90e96164a4d7ec5400afadd0&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.14&idno=14 Lose your medical by expiration or any other means and your private certificate is meaningless by itself (61.3 and 61.11 use more words to say this). Say what?? You need to read the rule before you paraphrase from it. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4d78b30e90e96164a4d7ec5400afadd0&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.2&idno=14 c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. but read on... (2) A person is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(1) of this section if that person (iv) Is exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with glider or balloon privileges; "You sound frustrated" Not at all. I just like to have CORRECT information presented and keep myself informed. Steve -------- Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69961#69961 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:53 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: "84KF" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" Opps... got ahead of myself...I meant to include this.... v) Is exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with other than glider or balloon privileges and holds a current and valid U.S. driver's license. A person who has applied for or held a medical certificate may exercise the privileges of a sport pilot certificate using a current and valid U.S. driver's license only if that person Well, anyway it goes on.... and no. my medical has never been denied so this would apply to me. A) Has been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application; and I won't take up space with this...Read the regs -------- Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69964#69964 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:44 PM PST US From: "JC Propellerdesign" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers The right place is 75% radii from center of hub to tip, or 25% from tip, if diameter is 68" that is 8,5" from the tip or 25,5" from center. when an total change of half degree+ make a difference from a standard prop to an cruise prop, 2 degree at the tip make some difference if it is only at the tip. But as Dave measured, and difference of half deg make a lot difference on a whole blade. is #1 = 47,75" pitch #2 = 48,58" pitch #3 = 49,40" pitch I got 47,89" on a Standard and 49,64 on a Cruise prop in my program at 75% Jan Dave said< >all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx.< ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:02 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Dave, See below ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave >>blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx. >> So, you are showing a .75 max error at your station. Maybe not as bad as mine and Lowells. >>Jan, Don and anyone -- Lowell you too since you got 2 degree variation but not at same station...... I think it worth a shot to set all blades the same? But if so what is the exact point to do it at ? and should I first chart out the degrees are different lengths on prop? e.g. every 2 inches in from tip ? >> Just to get a good visual and especially if it's snowing or you just want to play around, you could check the pitch at every 2 or 3 inches. First, back off about 2' from the plane, shut one eye and place you index finger on about the 3/4 length position of the prop. That has just become your official point for all future adjustments. Measure the blades at this new station and adjust as necessary so all three are the same. I measure from a fixed spot on the hub where I can get a good measurement each time without having to guess the center of the hole. Now, you can read all the 2" or 3" increments and get a good feel for your blades. I'm sure that some engineer at Warp might be able to tell us where the exact max thrust point is but, if your blades check out nice and linear, it doesn't matter where you adjust from. That is, if your tips show an error then I wouldn't use the tips for daily settings. Don S. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:17 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Noel, I don't agree with your conclusions on the tip length comment. The issue is how much of the blade you want to be in pitch. My measurements last evening agreed almost exactly with Don's measurements, except to the extent of the twist difference in the last inch of the one blade, mine exceeded one degree - I got 2 degrees. In fact and I have to say this, when you are measuring prop pitch and the bubble settles completely out side of the lines, you just know the protractor slipped. I repeated the blades numerous times and no slip. Don reported his findings to Warp and they stated, "Impossible". We get this sometimes on the list as well, people doing careful measurements and tests and the unbelievers arguing against the results. One example comes to mind - a guy, very careful and methodical, in my opinion and worth listening to and still a frequent contributor to the list, reported on the results of tests done on his airplane with vortex generators. His conclusions as far as his results went: gentler stall characteristics but little if any significant reduction in stall speed. Lots of arguments as to why his results were wrong and suggestions on how he could improve the data to agree with preconceived notions about vortex gererators, i.e., every one knows vortex venerators reduce stall speed. This exact thing happened on the Lancair list when one man with sets of both plain wingtips and the winglet wing tips. He flew some tests and reported reduced cruise speed with the winglets. Nearly all to a man agreed that his tests were somehow flawed, despite the fact that this was the only hard evidence using the same airplane, same pilot in similar conditions with both types of tips. They look cool and are expensive and hard to install, so they must be good for performance, besides the commercial jets use them, isn't that enough reason to put them on my Lancair. Go for it I say. I see the same thing emerging on this thread, i.e. Warp claims their blades are symmetrical from hub to tip - pitch at the tip. A guy does careful measurements and finds Warp is wrong at least with regard to his blades and decided to pitch at 75%. for that reason. Warp? Impossible. I measure mine and my measurements agree with Don. His suggestion is that we all measure our blades and if a significant number are "warped", notify Warp and maybe they will acknowledge a problem and change their "book", as in by the. Instead we get lots of talk about measuring by the book etc. and good enough for me. (Please read Guy Buchannans related post - He is in the busines). The 2" at the tip only came in with regard to whether you preferred the four square inches at the tip being in pitch or the 90 or so square inches in the rest of the blade being in pitch. I think his comment to be right on - it is best do disregard the 4 square inches and pitch for the bulk of the blade as the 4 in. sq to be minimal in effect by comparison. No one suggested cutting off the offending prop tips. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > Lowell: > > Regardless of where I think the measurements should be taken, I would take > the measurements where the manufacturer says to ( my AME training again). > If GSC says to measure their blades at .61 the length then on the GSC > that's > where I take the measurements. If the Warp people say to measure their > blades at the tip then I have to assume they have their reason for > measuring > that way and that's where I would measure the Warp blade. I do however > find > it interesting that they measure their pitch at that location. > > The last post I made on the length of the blade was in response to someone > who thought the tips of the blade did very little... Of course if that > were > true they would shorten the blade wouldn't they. > > Noel > Do not archive > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Lowell Fitt >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:41 AM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie >> >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >> >> >> Well, Since my airplane is just outside the side door, I did >> the deed. I >> just checked the prop pitch. I usually pitch my Warp taper >> at the inboard >> end of the nickel leading edge - the same as everyone else I >> have talked to. >> >> All checked the same there. And the same to about three >> inches from the >> tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full >> bubble witdth flat >> at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my >> findings, but I am >> glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. >> Kudos to Don >> and his aeronautical engineer friend. >> >> Are you suggesting that the terminal two inches is the major >> player in prop >> efficiency and smoothness? And a full bubble width - 2 >> degrees out of pitch >> is better at the fat of the blade than the final inch or two >> of the tip? >> Hoo Boy! >> >> Won't argue the merits of blade length here. I thought we >> were talking >> about blade pitch and where to put the protracter. >> >> Lowell >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Noel Loveys" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 4:08 PM >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie >> >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> >> > >> > Hoo boy! >> > >> > Just try putting a prop that is two inches longer or >> shorter for that >> > matter, on your plane before you say the last 2 inches do >> very little. >> > Don't forget the last two inches travel the fastest and travel the >> > furthest. >> > >> > On seaplanes you will find the most pitting on the tips of >> the blades >> > where >> > spray erodes the leading edges. On metal blades dressing >> the pits out to >> > an >> > extent will smooth out the prop and increase thrust. On composite >> > propellers filling the pits with epoxy and then dressing back to the >> > original surfaces will do the same thing. >> > >> > Noel >> > >> > >> > who cares about the last 2 inches (tips) that do very little. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:13 PM PST US From: "Algate" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" Dave I'm glad you love Lynn................ Regards Gary Algate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? Well maybe now that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his plane should be called..................................................................... the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot > scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless > steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru 2200 > engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped around the > exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior to where > the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in diameter, > and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was suggested on > this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow down the > passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it entered > the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: > > At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 degrees F. > OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with the SS > pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the aluminum > pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" behind the > respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would think, > after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before entering > the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads for > SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, head > rack, etc. > > In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I would > have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru exhaust > system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... > > > Lynn > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:49 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Excellent report Lynn! What sort of meter were you using with the thermocouples? Why don't you just elaborate specifically what you used to get these readings. I'm interested. Deke do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot > scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless > steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru > 2200 engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped > around the exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just > prior to where the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs > are 3" in diameter, and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside > them. It was suggested on this group that I insert some metal pads into > the muffs to slow down the passage of air, thus allowing the air to > become warmer before it entered the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found > today: > > At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 degrees > F. OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with > the SS pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the > aluminum pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about > 2" behind the respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I > would think, after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet > before entering the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the > aluminum pads for SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin > doors, root ribs, head rack, etc. > > In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I > would have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru > exhaust system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... > > > Lynn > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:04 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers Ok , Just went out to shop and got more accurate measurements. Here are the three measurements that I took as follows. Distance from centre of hub 25 25.5 at tip 34 1/8 inch Blade 1 15.25 15.75 -10 (light 10 degree) Blade 2 15.50 16.50 10 Blade 3 16 16.75 +10 ( heavy 10 degree) as it turns out the 25 Inch from centre was my original measuring point no .82 of the length - my mistake. My conclusions -well I know it flys well now as you see it set above and wx sucks today for accurate measurements 15 gusting 24 in light rain and snow showers so I wait for another day. but I think maybe set all three blades at the 25.5 inch place to about 16.25 to 16.5 degrees... how does this sound > ? And the tip ? Well we worry about that later I guess. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JC Propellerdesign To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers The right place is 75% radii from center of hub to tip, or 25% from tip, if diameter is 68" that is 8,5" from the tip or 25,5" from center. when an total change of half degree+ make a difference from a standard prop to an cruise prop, 2 degree at the tip make some difference if it is only at the tip. But as Dave measured, and difference of half deg make a lot difference on a whole blade. is #1 = 47,75" pitch #2 = 48,58" pitch #3 = 49,40" pitch I got 47,89" on a Standard and 49,64 on a Cruise prop in my program at 75% Jan Dave said< >all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx.< ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: "84KF" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" Guy. Thanks for the input. Certify.... Certified..., Certificated.... My head hurts. I just made a call to my GADO and their initial response to the question "is an Experimental aircraft certified? was... No, it's not. Even though, you raised good issues that (finally) forced me to make an appointment to discuss these issues with them face to face (in a attempt to) to clairify them. Tomorrow, 9:00 am. And appearently the are even newer rules that JUST came out. He said to bring my Zip drive and he would download a copy in .pdf format. I have no idea what this will be about. Maybe good, maybe bad. I will pass the info along whatever. Wish me luck??? Steve -------- Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69975#69975 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Easy, big fellah, EASY..... I guess I should also report that while I now know how to make the muffs put out more heat (thanks for the tips, group) that it ain't nearly ENOUGH heat to keep the cabin warm....and this was at 31 degrees F. I'm gonna really need to seal air leaks to be able to operate at the temps that Michigan hands out in the winter, let alone go to, say, Norway, or what was that phrase I read last week...those "treacherous Southern California winters?" Lynn do not archive On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:44 PM, Algate wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" > > Dave I'm glad you love Lynn................ > > Regards > > Gary Algate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) > > And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? Well maybe > now > that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his plane should be > called................................................................. > .... > the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot >> scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless >> steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru >> 2200 >> engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped around >> the >> exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior to >> where > >> the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in >> diameter, >> and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was >> suggested on > >> this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow down >> the >> passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it >> entered >> the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: >> >> At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 >> degrees F. > >> OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with >> the SS > >> pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the aluminum >> pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" >> behind the > >> respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would think, >> after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before >> entering >> the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads >> for >> SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, head >> rack, etc. >> >> In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I >> would >> have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru >> exhaust >> system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... >> >> >> Lynn >> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:45 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Prop Blade Length From: "crazyivan" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "crazyivan" John M is right...it's 70". I forgot to mention that it's a 3-blade. I'll provide results on a separate post when I get time to develop some solid flight data. -------- Dave Speedster 912 UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69980#69980 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:02 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" LOL that was a typo -- hell-- love you -- I harldy know you :) ? should have read > I LOVE R YOUR REPORT < Anyhow --- how much inlet size do you have compared to your scat piping ? I would guess that you need larger in than out to start and get more aircoming through and more SS pads to slow it again down. Keep experimenting..... I know I did and I kept adding SS and it gets very warm in cabin now with alot of airleaks. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > Easy, big fellah, EASY..... > > I guess I should also report that while I now know how to make the muffs > put out more heat (thanks for the tips, group) that it ain't nearly > ENOUGH heat to keep the cabin warm....and this was at 31 degrees F. > I'm gonna really need to seal air leaks to be able to operate at the > temps that Michigan hands out in the winter, let alone go to, say, > Norway, or what was that phrase I read last week...those "treacherous > Southern California winters?" > > Lynn > do not archive > On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:44 PM, Algate wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" >> >> Dave I'm glad you love Lynn................ >> >> Regards >> >> Gary Algate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >> >> I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) >> >> And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? Well maybe now >> that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his plane should be >> called................................................................. >> .... >> the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lynn Matteson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM >> Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report >> >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >>> >>> I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot >>> scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless >>> steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru >>> 2200 >>> engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped around >>> the >>> exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior to >>> where >> >>> the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in >>> diameter, >>> and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was suggested >>> on >> >>> this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow down >>> the >>> passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it >>> entered >>> the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: >>> >>> At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 degrees >>> F. >> >>> OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with the >>> SS >> >>> pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the aluminum >>> pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" behind >>> the >> >>> respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would think, >>> after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before entering >>> the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads for >>> SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, head >>> rack, etc. >>> >>> In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I >>> would >>> have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru exhaust >>> system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... >>> >>> >>> Lynn >>> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 >>> do not archive >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:00 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 12:17 PM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >--note the prop length I measuring is from the centre of hub to outside of >prop, But the actual blades are not 34 inches but shorter because of the >large hub diameter. Do we measure from centre of hub ? Actual inner end >of blade ? or in from outer tip of blade ? That's the other problem. I had a 3/32" variation in blade length on my Warp so I had to measure out from the hub to get a consistent place to equalize the angle. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:00 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 09:44 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >This is my first post on this list. >It seems that we have a good amount of knowledge collected in this group. >I want to share my opinions on prop's Jan's been helping me figure out my seeming lack of power / excess drag in my 582 K-IV. He has some software that is, (from my perspective,) primarily useful for propeller design, but can also be used for evaluation of existing designs with some head scratching. He has been extremely helpful, even digging up his own comparison data. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:54 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 rebuilding BRAVO BRAVO I am with john on this one a lot of other posts get that way also but if I haven't replied I do not get involved. ALSO thank you to the original poster, he responded to my responses and thanked me ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox passenger report...2nd hand From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I took my second passenger up today since I got my Sport Pilot Cert., and he was thrilled by the visibility, especially out the doors and the skylight, the responsiveness, and the "just plain fun" of flying the Kitfox IV. He said you almost don't have to do clearing turns...just clearing banks! He is a Cessna 172 straight-tail driver, of the 1956 (50-year anniv. plane) vintage, and has the hangar next to mine. After all the hours that I've put in my plane since I soloed...about 110...it was strange to relinquish the controls to someone else...I felt like I should be doing something. At one point I told him he hadn't even touched the throttle yet, and he said "I don't need to." As he is a nose-wheel operator, I landed the plane and he was amazed by how close it seemed we were to the row of trees we have to drop over to get into our strip, and what the visual picture is upon touching down. My first passenger (last week) was my former radio-control flight instructor, and he was brave enough to climb aboard even after he had witnessed the carnage I used to be able to inflict on a balsa model...mine, not his. I used to tell him, "I know I could do this if only I could get into the damn thing" Now he knows that I can...(knock on wood) : ) Lynn ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:07 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Guy, well have you tried the measurements like Don has suggested ? I got he numbers now and it looks like I will change it .......very soon to test and will report back my findings. Should only take 5 mins for a flight, land and repitch and re fly and see how it compares. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 09:44 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >>This is my first post on this list. >>It seems that we have a good amount of knowledge collected in this group. >>I want to share my opinions on prop's > > Jan's been helping me figure out my seeming lack of power / excess drag in > my 582 K-IV. He has some software that is, (from my perspective,) > primarily useful for propeller design, but can also be used for evaluation > of existing designs with some head scratching. He has been extremely > helpful, even digging up his own comparison data. > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Hi Deke- The meter I'm using is a Craftsman AutoRanging Digital MultiMeter, model 82175...about an $80 meter. It came with a type K (chromel-alumel) temperature probe. It really would be better if it was a type J (iron-constantan) probe, as they are more suited to the below 500F or so, temperature range. Type K's are better suited to the above 500 F range...we used to use the K's on exhaust system measurements at Chrysler. The meter reads out in F or C and "indicates the proper decimal point and value." I don't know if the unit would read right if used with a type J probe, however. The thermocouples are kinda short...about 36"...so I had to run them under the cowl and up over my instrument panel cover, then plug them into the meter body, one at a time. I wish I had longer t'couples, and could plug them into a "real" meter and then simply turn the dial to whatever "station" I wanted to read. But I have to unplug one lead, then plug in the other...one-handed, while flying...makes for an interesting "track" on the GPS. : ) I can attest to the "pretty good accuracy" of the unit, as I used it to calibrate my iron for shrinking my fabric, and also when inserted into my mouth, it read about 92 F....give me a break, guys, I'm 70 years old! ....a guy cools down after all those years.... Lynn On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:43 PM, Fox5flyer wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Excellent report Lynn! What sort of meter were you using with the > thermocouples? Why don't you just elaborate specifically what you > used to > get these readings. I'm interested. > Deke > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Show me the FAR... From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson If we don't hear from you by, say, 5pm, we'll send out the hounds. : ) Lynn do not archive On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 05:11 PM, 84KF wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" > > Guy. > Thanks for the input. Certify.... Certified..., Certificated.... > My head hurts. > I just made a call to my GADO and their initial response to the > question "is an Experimental aircraft certified? was... No, it's not. > > Even though, you raised good issues that (finally) forced me to make > an appointment to discuss these issues with them face to face (in a > attempt to) to clairify them. Tomorrow, 9:00 am. And appearently the > are even newer rules that JUST came out. He said to bring my Zip drive > and he would download a copy in .pdf format. I have no idea what this > will be about. Maybe good, maybe bad. I will pass the info along > whatever. > Wish me luck??? > Steve > > -------- > Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) > New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to > the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69975#69975 > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson The right side muff with the SS pads has a 2" dia. straight-in collar right behind the prop, and about 6" out from the periphery of the spinner...about the same location circumferentially as the engine-cooling air intakes. The left side muff has a NACA duct on the side of the cowl that feeds a 2" SCAT hose. The one thing that I keep pondering is this: The air bends around after entering the NACA duct, comes forward through the SCAT hose, then goes into the muff, then travels rearward through the muff, into a cabin heat box and into the cabin (or overboard). On the right side, the air travels pretty straight into the rear of the muff, goes forward through the muff, then out into the SCAT hose where it travels rearward through a selective "T", then into the cabin (or overboard). I could add another straight-in collar for the left-side muff, and do away with the NACA duct, but I wanted to prove the system before I started punching more holes into the cowl. I set it up this way (zig-zagging) to slow the air and pick up more heat, I thought. Any ideas on the circuitry? Lynn On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 05:24 PM, Dave wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > LOL that was a typo -- hell-- love you -- I harldy know you :) > ? should have read > I LOVE R YOUR REPORT < > > Anyhow --- how much inlet size do you have compared to your scat > piping ? I would guess that you need larger in than out to start and > get more aircoming through and more SS pads to slow it again down. > Keep experimenting..... I know I did and I kept adding SS and it > gets very warm in cabin now with alot of airleaks. > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:14 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> Easy, big fellah, EASY..... >> >> I guess I should also report that while I now know how to make the >> muffs put out more heat (thanks for the tips, group) that it ain't >> nearly ENOUGH heat to keep the cabin warm....and this was at 31 >> degrees F. I'm gonna really need to seal air leaks to be able to >> operate at the temps that Michigan hands out in the winter, let alone >> go to, say, Norway, or what was that phrase I read last week...those >> "treacherous Southern California winters?" >> >> Lynn >> do not archive >> On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:44 PM, Algate wrote: >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" >>> >>> Dave I'm glad you love Lynn................ >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Gary Algate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . >>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>> >>> I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) >>> >>> And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? Well maybe >>> now >>> that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his plane should >>> be >>> called............................................................... >>> .. .... >>> the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lynn Matteson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM >>> Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report >>> >>> >>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >>>> >>>> I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot >>>> scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and >>>> stainless >>>> steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a >>>> Jabiru 2200 >>>> engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped >>>> around the >>>> exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. just prior >>>> to where >>> >>>> the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in >>>> diameter, >>>> and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was >>>> suggested on >>> >>>> this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to slow >>>> down the >>>> passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it >>>> entered >>>> the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: >>>> >>>> At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 >>>> degrees F. >>> >>>> OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the muff with >>>> the SS >>> >>>> pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the >>>> aluminum >>>> pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" >>>> behind the >>> >>>> respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I would >>>> think, >>>> after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before >>>> entering >>>> the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the aluminum pads >>>> for >>>> SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, root ribs, >>>> head >>>> rack, etc. >>>> >>>> In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I >>>> would >>>> have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru >>>> exhaust >>>> system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... >>>> >>>> >>>> Lynn >>>> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 >>>> do not archive >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:47 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Possible Ethanol solution? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I'm looking into the HAC for my 582 ... So you are spot on with the High Altitude Compensator. As I said all the smart cars sold in Canada are supposed to be Diesel. I've been told by simply re chipping them you can get 65 Hp. The problem seems to be in finding an engine. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > GypsyBeeInnkeepers > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:48 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Possible Ethanol solution? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: GypsyBeeInnkeepers > > > With all this concern about ethanol eating our fuel tanks and rubber > seals maybe we should be looking into diesel power.? > What'a an HAC? Not a High Altitude Compensator I'll bet? > Rex > Colorado > > Noel Loveys wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > In the mean time I have a number > >of people looking out for a Mercedes Smart car. In Canada > all the smart > >cars are Diesel. They can be upped to 65 Hp very easily and > are almost the > >same weight as the 582. > > > >I've also been playing with the idea of an HAC. Have a look > at that it's so > >simple it's almost obscene. > > > >Noel > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:55 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Thanks ... That is what I was wondering. I don't mind saying I find it strange that Warp requires you to set your blades by the tips when that evidently is where the largest discrepancy appears to be. Noel Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Don Smythe > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:13 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > I'm not sure I quite understand the question but, when I > checked mine I > simply took all the readings and compared the difference. > For instance, if > I measured at 22" and got 24 degrees 24-1/4 degrees and > 23-3/4 that's a > total max difference of 1/2 degree. At the tips I might > have seen 12 > degrees 12-3/4 degrees and 14 degrees. That's a max error of > 2 degrees. I > did not make any determination that any one blade was causing > the error. > Besides, all three blades tracked very close out to the tips. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:27 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > Jus curious ... Do all the blades have a consistent > difference of pitch > > at > > the tips or does the difference vary with the blade?? > > > > Noel > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen From: "Tom Jones" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" some (a lot) of the messages on the kitfox List are way to wide for my computer screen. I have to scroll back and forth to read them. It is all but unuseable for me now. Is it me or the senders of the wide messages causing me this agrivation? Tom Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70020#70020 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:16 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: Kitfox-List: Origin of Cockpit... only slightly off topic Just guessing again... but it may come from the word coxswain... the coxswain is a helmsman and the term coxswain is often contracted to "Cox" In the old WW1 planes the Cockpit was a little better than a hole or "pit" in the fuselage where the pilot could huddle and control the plane. That makes me wonder if the word cockpit is a development of a term Cox pit. The concise Oxford Dictionary describes, in part, the cockpit as being the after part of a man of war's orlop deck. The orlop deck is lowest of three decks. A cockpit is also described as an arena of any struggle. that may be true Nah... Do not archive this one. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I have the Williams door latch. It's ultra simple, but works fine. Of course if somebody really wants to get into the cockpit the latch isn't going to make much difference. I recommend it. Deke still wondering why it's called the cockpit ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Olson Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Door hardware I am making the switch from the conventional door to the bubble door on my S7. My kit came with the standard bottom single latch. These work somewhat OK for the standard door but I would prefer something a little better. I know Merle Williams has a different version. Any other ideas or experiences out there? Thanks. Gary _____ Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List the Web --> =========== ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:55 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Propellers Prop stations should be measured from the centre of the prop hub. Your prop only shows a deviation of + - .25 degree at about .82 the prop length and spot on at the tips. Warp specifies setting the prop by the tips so it sounds to me that your set is good. All blades should be set as close to exactly the same as you can get. The only place I know of where a blade is intentionally set out of pitch is on old car engines. They used to intentionally set one blade more coarse to avoid having the fan whistle at high rpm. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Ok on my Warp I did a quick peek before lunch and he is what I got............ I used a GSC protractor and it slides on the warp about 7 inches in from tip all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx. --note the prop length I measuring is from the centre of hub to outside of prop, But the actual blades are not 34 inches but shorter because of the large hub diameter. Do we measure from centre of hub ? Actual inner end of blade ? or in from outer tip of blade ? So what is odd is that I think my GSC numbers are pretty close to these figures in degrees but not sure how far on GSC prop it goes. Jan, Don and anyone -- Lowell you too since you got 2 degree variation but not at same station...... I think it worth a shot to set all blades the same? But if so what is the exact point to do it at ? and should I first chart out the degrees are different lengths on prop? e.g. every 2 inches in from tip ? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers Jan, From looking at your web site I'd say you know a bit about props. We welcome the post. You ask, "why are they not uniform". First off, we ("I") might be looking at this situation with too big a magnifying glass. Maybe the pitch difference of 1-2 degrees at the tips is acceptable. I just know that mine ran true until that last little bit. Warp seems to imply that they use the tips as a reference point so that Warp users would all be united when discussing pitch angle. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: JC Propellerdesign Talking about Warp prop's if the 75% station is where we have the peak in thrust, to get aerodynamic balance it must be better to use that station as set point when it looks like the blades have some differences at the outer inches, Why are they not uniform? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:25 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Good old fashioned empirical experimentation... Works every time. Thanks for the report Lynn Noel Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn Matteson > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:53 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot > scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, and stainless > steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I have a Jabiru > 2200 engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are clamped > around the exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) > degrees F. just > prior to where the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs > are 3" in diameter, and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside > them. It was suggested on this group that I insert some metal > pads into > the muffs to slow down the passage of air, thus allowing the air to > become warmer before it entered the cockpit/cabin. Here is > what I found > today: > > At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, > 31 degrees > F. OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the > muff with > the SS pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing the > aluminum pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about > 2" behind the respective muffs. This temperature drops > considerably, I > would think, after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet > before entering the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the > aluminum pads for SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin > doors, root ribs, head rack, etc. > > In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot larger, I > would have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru > exhaust system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... > > > Lynn > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I've seen this once or twice lately as well. Can't you drag on the lower right corner to close up the horizontal size? This coming from a Mac user. Lynn do not archive On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 07:46 PM, Tom Jones wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" > > some (a lot) of the messages on the kitfox List are way to wide for my > computer screen. I have to scroll back and forth to read them. It is > all but unuseable for me now. Is it me or the senders of the wide > messages causing me this agrivation? > Tom Jones > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70020#70020 > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers To be clear ... What you are saying is the folks at Warp are wrong and the blades pitch angle should be set at and all equal at .75 the length of the blades. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC Propellerdesign Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:39 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers The right place is 75% radii from center of hub to tip, or 25% from tip, if diameter is 68" that is 8,5" from the tip or 25,5" from center. when an total change of half degree+ make a difference from a standard prop to an cruise prop, 2 degree at the tip make some difference if it is only at the tip. But as Dave measured, and difference of half deg make a lot difference on a whole blade. is #1 = 47,75" pitch #2 = 48,58" pitch #3 = 49,40" pitch I got 47,89" on a Standard and 49,64 on a Cruise prop in my program at 75% Jan Dave said< >all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx.< ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:38 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson At the risk of catching hell for hogging the bandwidth...anybody seen "Flyboys" yet? I've seen it twice and loved it...very good period scenery and costumes, great dogfight scenes, and very little love story...the dirigible scene was great. I had to suspend belief during some of the scenes, but overall a very entertaining movie. And the fact that they built the 4 (or 5?) Nieuport 17s, in about 50 days is amazing...not part of the story, but amazing. Lynn do not archive ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:23 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks Lynn. I was wondering how you did that. Deke do not archive > > Hi Deke- > The meter I'm using is a Craftsman AutoRanging Digital MultiMeter, > model 82175...about an $80 meter. It came with a type K > (chromel-alumel) temperature probe. It really would be better if it was > a type J (iron-constantan) probe, as they are more suited to the below > 500F or so, temperature range. Type K's are better suited to the above > 500 F range...we used to use the K's on exhaust system measurements at > Chrysler. The meter reads out in F or C and "indicates the proper > decimal point and value." I don't know if the unit would read right if > used with a type J probe, however. > > The thermocouples are kinda short...about 36"...so I had to run them > under the cowl and up over my instrument panel cover, then plug them > into the meter body, one at a time. I wish I had longer t'couples, and > could plug them into a "real" meter and then simply turn the dial to > whatever "station" I wanted to read. But I have to unplug one lead, > then plug in the other...one-handed, while flying...makes for an > interesting "track" on the GPS. : ) > > I can attest to the "pretty good accuracy" of the unit, as I used it to > calibrate my iron for shrinking my fabric, and also when inserted into > my mouth, it read about 92 F....give me a break, guys, I'm 70 years > old! ....a guy cools down after all those years.... > > Lynn > > On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:43 PM, Fox5flyer wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > > Excellent report Lynn! What sort of meter were you using with the > > thermocouples? Why don't you just elaborate specifically what you > > used to > > get these readings. I'm interested. > > Deke > > > > do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:07 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Lowell: Don't get me wrong.... I'm not suggesting any one go out and hack a couple of inches off their props. I'm getting the feeling that in specifying the pitch angle be set by the tips, Warp may be wrong and in fact the optimum place probably is close to the .75 station. In my first post on this topic I did say my training was to set pitch at .66 station that's a difference of about 3 inches on a 68" prop. Someone said the last two inches don't make any difference to the prop..... It is only my contention that they sure do make a difference. If you guys are getting large differences in pitch angle only at the tips it says to me there is something not quite right with the blades. If so, that's an issue I'd take up with Warp. Sounds like there is a problem there whether Warp likes it or not. As for how much of the blade is in pitch I agree with you that should be the issue. The more of the blade in equal pitch the smother the blade should be, assuming the tracking is consistent, which you have said it is. On the question of vortex generators, winglets etc. Thee are so many variables there that the only way to see what works for you is to try it. Lets face it nothing is perfect and sticking a few VGs on a good wing is not likely to make a huge difference. Putting the same VGs on a poorer wing could have more effect. As you said the big jets use winglets supposedly not because they fly faster but they are supposed to save fuel on the long haul at altitude. I think Boeing actually recommends not to have the winglets for regional airlines flying the 737 - 700 as they seldom get to an extended cruise altitude definitely outside the Lancair envelope. Yes the winglets look cool and if you have the ca$h to put them on ... Why not??? Just don't expect the huge, or any increase in speed. If you went the full gambit and added VGs, wing fences, slats, slots, droops and winglets to the Kitfox you may never get it off the ground. Noel I keep trying to remember.... Oh yes ... Do not archive. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:57 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > Noel, > > I don't agree with your conclusions on the tip length > comment. The issue is > how much of the blade you want to be in pitch. My > measurements last evening > agreed almost exactly with Don's measurements, except to the > extent of the > twist difference in the last inch of the one blade, mine exceeded one > degree - I got 2 degrees. In fact and I have to say this, > when you are > measuring prop pitch and the bubble settles completely out > side of the > lines, you just know the protractor slipped. I repeated the > blades numerous > times and no slip. > > Don reported his findings to Warp and they stated, > "Impossible". We get > this sometimes on the list as well, people doing careful > measurements and > tests and the unbelievers arguing against the results. One > example comes to > mind - a guy, very careful and methodical, in my opinion and > worth listening > to and still a frequent contributor to the list, reported on > the results of > tests done on his airplane with vortex generators. His > conclusions as far > as his results went: gentler stall characteristics but little if any > significant reduction in stall speed. Lots of arguments as > to why his > results were wrong and suggestions on how he could improve > the data to agree > with preconceived notions about vortex gererators, i.e., > every one knows > vortex venerators reduce stall speed. > > This exact thing happened on the Lancair list when one man > with sets of both > plain wingtips and the winglet wing tips. He flew some tests > and reported > reduced cruise speed with the winglets. Nearly all to a man > agreed that his > tests were somehow flawed, despite the fact that this was the > only hard > evidence using the same airplane, same pilot in similar > conditions with both > types of tips. They look cool and are expensive and hard to > install, so > they must be good for performance, besides the commercial > jets use them, > isn't that enough reason to put them on my Lancair. Go for it I say. > > I see the same thing emerging on this thread, i.e. Warp > claims their blades > are symmetrical from hub to tip - pitch at the tip. A guy > does careful > measurements and finds Warp is wrong at least with regard to > his blades and > decided to pitch at 75%. for that reason. Warp? Impossible. > I measure mine > and my measurements agree with Don. His suggestion is that > we all measure > our blades and if a significant number are "warped", notify > Warp and maybe > they will acknowledge a problem and change their "book", as > in by the. > Instead we get lots of talk about measuring by the book etc. > and good enough > for me. (Please read Guy Buchannans related post - He is in > the busines). > > The 2" at the tip only came in with regard to whether you > preferred the four > square inches at the tip being in pitch or the 90 or so > square inches in the > rest of the blade being in pitch. I think his comment to be > right on - it > is best do disregard the 4 square inches and pitch for the > bulk of the blade > as the 4 in. sq to be minimal in effect by comparison. No > one suggested > cutting off the offending prop tips. > > > Lowell > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:50 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp Angle and Movie > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > Lowell: > > > > Regardless of where I think the measurements should be > taken, I would take > > the measurements where the manufacturer says to ( my AME > training again). > > If GSC says to measure their blades at .61 the length then > on the GSC > > that's > > where I take the measurements. If the Warp people say to > measure their > > blades at the tip then I have to assume they have their reason for > > measuring > > that way and that's where I would measure the Warp blade. > I do however > > find > > it interesting that they measure their pitch at that location. > > > > The last post I made on the length of the blade was in > response to someone > > who thought the tips of the blade did very little... Of > course if that > > were > > true they would shorten the blade wouldn't they. > > > > Noel > > Do not archive > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> Lowell Fitt > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:41 AM > >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp > Angle and Movie > >> > >> > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > >> > >> > >> Well, Since my airplane is just outside the side door, I did > >> the deed. I > >> just checked the prop pitch. I usually pitch my Warp taper > >> at the inboard > >> end of the nickel leading edge - the same as everyone else I > >> have talked to. > >> > >> All checked the same there. And the same to about three > >> inches from the > >> tip, but two inches in, big difference and one was a full > >> bubble witdth flat > >> at the tip. Now, I am not particularly happy with my > >> findings, but I am > >> glad the bulk of the blade is pitched the same as the others. > >> Kudos to Don > >> and his aeronautical engineer friend. > >> > >> Are you suggesting that the terminal two inches is the major > >> player in prop > >> efficiency and smoothness? And a full bubble width - 2 > >> degrees out of pitch > >> is better at the fat of the blade than the final inch or two > >> of the tip? > >> Hoo Boy! > >> > >> Won't argue the merits of blade length here. I thought we > >> were talking > >> about blade pitch and where to put the protracter. > >> > >> Lowell > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Noel Loveys" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 4:08 PM > >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Don Smythe comments on Warp > Angle and Movie > >> > >> > >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > >> > >> > > >> > Hoo boy! > >> > > >> > Just try putting a prop that is two inches longer or > >> shorter for that > >> > matter, on your plane before you say the last 2 inches do > >> very little. > >> > Don't forget the last two inches travel the fastest and > travel the > >> > furthest. > >> > > >> > On seaplanes you will find the most pitting on the tips of > >> the blades > >> > where > >> > spray erodes the leading edges. On metal blades dressing > >> the pits out to > >> > an > >> > extent will smooth out the prop and increase thrust. On > composite > >> > propellers filling the pits with epoxy and then dressing > back to the > >> > original surfaces will do the same thing. > >> > > >> > Noel > >> > > >> > > >> > who cares about the last 2 inches (tips) that do very little. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:53 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Depends on which email client you are using, but you should try turning on a "word wrap" option that should be a configuration option. Matt At 05:29 PM 10/24/2006 Tuesday, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >I've seen this once or twice lately as well. Can't you drag on the lower right corner to close up the horizontal size? This coming from a Mac user. > >Lynn >do not archive >On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 07:46 PM, Tom Jones wrote: > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" >> >>some (a lot) of the messages on the kitfox List are way to wide for my computer screen. I have to scroll back and forth to read them. It is all but unuseable for me now. Is it me or the senders of the wide messages causing me this agrivation? >>Tom Jones Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:20 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: heat muff report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Get a good winter flight suit and fly with the door open! Noel Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn Matteson > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:45 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > Easy, big fellah, EASY..... > > I guess I should also report that while I now know how to make the > muffs put out more heat (thanks for the tips, group) that it ain't > nearly ENOUGH heat to keep the cabin warm....and this was at 31 > degrees F. I'm gonna really need to seal air leaks to be able to > operate at the temps that Michigan hands out in the winter, > let alone > go to, say, Norway, or what was that phrase I read last week...those > "treacherous Southern California winters?" > > Lynn > do not archive > On Tuesday, October 24, 2006, at 04:44 PM, Algate wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" > > > > Dave I'm glad you love Lynn................ > > > > Regards > > > > Gary Algate > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Lynn, I love you report . NO BS and factual . > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > > > I will keep my SS pads in my muff :) > > > > And Deke............ about your question the cockpit ? > Well maybe > > now > > that Lynn has a warmer cockpit due to his heatmuff his > plane should be > > > called........................................................ > ......... > > .... > > the MuffPit .....or a kit FOX with a Muff PIT ........ :) > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lynn Matteson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:23 PM > > Subject: Kitfox-List: heat muff report > > > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >> > >> I tested my heat muff output today, after installing aluminum "pot > >> scrubbers" (hereinafter to be called pads) in one muff, > and stainless > >> steel pads in the other. Just to refresh MY memory, I > have a Jabiru > >> 2200 > >> engine, air-cooled, and these muffs (not muffLERS) are > clamped around > >> the > >> exhaust pipes. The EGT is 1370-1430 (or so) degrees F. > just prior to > >> where > > > >> the exhaust pipe enters the heat muff. The heat muffs are 3" in > >> diameter, > >> and about 6" long. There are some baffles inside them. It was > >> suggested on > > > >> this group that I insert some metal pads into the muffs to > slow down > >> the > >> passage of air, thus allowing the air to become warmer before it > >> entered > >> the cockpit/cabin. Here is what I found today: > >> > >> At 3700' MSL, (2800'AGL), I flew at 89-103 IAS, 2780 rpm, 31 > >> degrees F. > > > >> OAT, 1415 F. EGT, 240 F. CHT, and got 140-150 F. for the > muff with > >> the SS > > > >> pads inside, and about 104-110 F. for the muff containing > the aluminum > >> pads. The thermocouples were placed in the SCAT hose, about 2" > >> behind the > > > >> respective muffs. This temperature drops considerably, I > would think, > >> after leaving the muff, as the air travels about 2 feet before > >> entering > >> the cabin. Next time the cowl is off, I'll change the > aluminum pads > >> for > >> SS, and seal up some air leaks around the cabin doors, > root ribs, head > >> rack, etc. > >> > >> In retrospect, if I could have made the heat muffs a lot > larger, I > >> would > >> have, but space is at a premium for building a muff on a Jabiru > >> exhaust > >> system. Now to corral the heat, and stuff the cracks... > >> > >> > >> Lynn > >> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > >> do not archive > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:10 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen From: "Tom Jones" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" I'm not getting the email versions. I am reading the kitfox list on the web at http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=ab1531ee468c5f957cadfc1a88256cd1 this is where a lot of the messages are too wide to read. Some some are extremely wide. Tom Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70046#70046 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:13 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Prop Blade Length --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" 71" three blade on 1.6:1 redrive. I expect better when I up my cc from 1915 to 2275. Ron NB Or >From: "Richard D'Archangel" >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Prop Blade Length >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:12:10 -0700 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard D'Archangel" > > >Ron, >Is your ivoprop a 2 or 3 blade prop? >Thanks, >Dick > >ron schick wrote: > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" >> >> >>Same with the VW. Barely got over the trees with the GSC and does 92 KTS >>with the Ivoprop. Ron NB Ore >> >> >>>From: "crazyivan" >>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Prop Blade Length >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:28:06 -0700 >>> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "crazyivan" >>> >>>I just pulled off a 68" GSC wooden prop off of my Speedster with a Rotax >>>912UL (80hp). I replaced it with a 70" or 72" (I forgot to measure it) >>>IvoProp ultralight. Huge improvement in both takeoff roll, climb, and >>>max straight-and-level speed. It was 2.4 lbs lighter as well. After I >>>get the pitch dialed in, I'll run the numbers by you guys. >>> >>>-------- >>>Dave >>>Speedster 912 UL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69813#69813 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get today's hot entertainment gossip >>http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:25 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers Ok, I just put together new GSC 68 " blade tonight and did preliminary pitch setup on shop table. Set at 16 degrees to start and that is measured with GSC protractor and it fits snug at 23.75 inches from centre of hub. in my calculation that comes out to 69.9 % radii. Measuring at tip gives about the same 13 degrees on each blade approx. Wx permitting I will re adjust WARP and test fly and try GSC as well. I do have a 70 or 72 inch IVO UL prop 2 blade that I have used on same Kitfox with 3 to 1 box but IVO does not recommend it. on a 2.68 it supposed to be fine. The Blades are brand new and I only tested for an hour or so. It is for sale if anyone wants it or if IVO is reading this I will trade you for a suitable prop to test and publish the numbers. They say a Medium is a better fit for a 582 3 to 1 box. Same goes for any prop manufacturer, send me a prop and I will try and video and publish the numbers. If you got it -, might as well flaunt it. Repeat business is best from word of mouth and practical testing. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JC Propellerdesign To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re Propellers The right place is 75% radii from center of hub to tip, or 25% from tip, if diameter is 68" that is 8,5" from the tip or 25,5" from center. when an total change of half degree+ make a difference from a standard prop to an cruise prop, 2 degree at the tip make some difference if it is only at the tip. But as Dave measured, and difference of half deg make a lot difference on a whole blade. is #1 = 47,75" pitch #2 = 48,58" pitch #3 = 49,40" pitch I got 47,89" on a Standard and 49,64 on a Cruise prop in my program at 75% Jan Dave said< >all 3 blades are same degrees on tip ( about 10,5 degrees) but the measurements at this station is about .82 the length of prop. Not ideal but I used what I had.... blade 1 15.25 deg blade 2 15.50+ deg blade 3 15.75 to 16 approx.< ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:50 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Some messages are too wide for my computer screen From: "84KF" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "84KF" I noticed it too... I've been doing a lot of cut and paste from stuff I open with Windows Word processer (copying from Word and pasting in this reply text box). I'll bet I caused it if it's my FAR question posts you are speaking about. Sorry... It might change some sort of format when it gets uploaded from me to there. I will stop doing that in the future ..unless necessary. [Wink] Steve -------- Steve: Former Fi-156 'Storch' driver (...talk about folding wings!!!) New owner, not builder- Kitfox V / 912UL / Warp Dr 3 blade. Thanks to the late great Ray Mudge, Brighton Mi. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70061#70061 ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:35 PM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" In a message dated 10/24/2006 7:41:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, lynnmatt@jps.net writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson At the risk of catching hell for hogging the bandwidth...anybody seen "Flyboys" yet? I've seen it twice and loved it...very good period scenery and costumes, great dogfight scenes, and very little love story...the dirigible scene was great. I had to suspend belief during some of the scenes, but overall a very entertaining movie. And the fact that they built the 4 (or 5?) Nieuport 17=99s, in about 50 days is amazing...not part of the story, but amazing. Lynn do not archive I did to be frank was very disappointed Computer Generated effects was very very disappointing, yet the rest was fine... its a B .... want to see a well done flying movie? try Battle of Britain...they used real planes and models just an opinion! Dave ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Door hardware From: "dcsfoto" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dcsfoto" look at what is used on the Zenair CH-701. They use the same mfg for the bubble doors and a .5 inch tube frame. The door handle has key lock. send me an off line email and I can send you a set install directions. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70066#70066 ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:54 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Propellers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 02:56 PM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >Guy, well have you tried the measurements like Don has suggested ? Yes. I posted previously that I have about 1/2 bubble variation between blades at the tip. I have yet to do a comprehensive survey or measure what 1/2 bubble is. I have been matching my blades at about 75% when I set pitch, trying to hit a mean tip angle for comparison purposes. I'll get some numbers when I get some time, (next week,) and report. >I got he numbers now and it looks like I will change it .......very soon to >test and will report back my findings. Should only take 5 mins for a >flight, land and repitch and re fly and see how it compares. Dang, I envy you. With the Warp HPL hub it takes me about an hour to re-pitch. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:20 PM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Here is the FAR To end this argument~~ Go to Federal Aviation Regulations FAR Part 1 - Definitions and Abbreviations Look for Light Sport Aircraft All spelled out in black and white, no revisions since Amendment # 53 which was effective 1 SEP 04 It is nothing new!! In black and white it states "an aircraft that since its original certification has continued to meet the following: All items are mentioned Elbie Mendenhall EM aviation, LLC Flight Training ~~ 44 continuous years as a Certified Flight Instructor CFI ASMEL A&I 1513655 Exp 1/31/08