---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/03/06: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:33 AM - Re: Subaru EA-81 (JC Propellerdesign) 2. 04:29 AM - Re: Failure Point (Don Smythe) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: Failure Point (dave) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: Failure Point rod end - horiz stab. (dave) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: Failure Point (Don Smythe) 6. 09:32 AM - Re: Failure Point (Lowell Fitt) 7. 09:57 AM - Re: Overdue plane (kurt schrader) 8. 10:30 AM - Re: Engine cooling - was Subaru EA-81 (kurt schrader) 9. 11:06 AM - Re: EA-81 fuel (Peter Graichen) 10. 11:18 AM - Re: Subaru EA-81 (Peter Graichen) 11. 11:30 AM - Re: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes (jdmcbean) 12. 04:48 PM - Re: Failure Point (PWilson) 13. 05:01 PM - Re: Failure Point (Jerry Liles) 14. 05:22 PM - N914C (ron schick) 15. 06:00 PM - Re: Failure Point (Ted Palamarek) 16. 07:10 PM - Re: Failure Point (Tim Vader) 17. 07:44 PM - Re: Failure Point (Don Pearsall) 18. 08:21 PM - Re: N914C (john perry) 19. 09:14 PM - Re: Failure Point (Ted Palamarek) 20. 10:20 PM - Re: Failure Point (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:34 AM PST US From: "JC Propellerdesign" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Subaru EA-81 Here is a lot interesting information about cooling, http://www.rotaryeng.net/how-to-cool12.html Also attached is an excel file for cooling estimate. Jan Carlsson www.jcpropellerdesign.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy & Dick Toomey To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:39 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Subaru EA-81 I am curious to what size radiators are being used (Square inches) with success for proper cooling on a Subaru EA-81 engine with carburetors. Also is an oil cooler necessary? Thanks Dick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:21 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point I have this mod on my list of things to do. Just remove one rod (with rod end) at a time. pre-drill the fuselage end and attach new rod. Put a tick mark down through the hole in the stab where you want the new rod drilled. I think that should be as close as you need it. Don Smythe. -- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > Don, You would have to get the hole drilled perfect in that case. > > I drop the front of my horiz. stab when floats go on and have to adjust a > few timesto get hands free flights. > Same thing going back to wheels in fall. Ski season approaching soon. :) > > BTW Don I saw your Fox on Barnstormers. Looks great !! Surprising how > these Kitfox sell so cheap and at a fraction of a new Kit. Yours only has > 150 hours? Good deal for some one. > If anyone looking fora 582 Amphib fox there is one there as well on > Aerocet floats for 25k . Flaots worth about 8k alone. Great deal > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Smythe" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > >> >> Just a thought, once the horizontal stabilizers are adjusted for proper >> flight why not replace the horizontal struts with "fixed" units. That >> is, replace with tubing with crimped ends and no rod ends to break. >> >> Don Smythe >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lynn Matteson" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:59 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >> >> >>> >>> I bought the 1/4" threaded stud inserts to fit those forward hort. stab >>> struts, and welded them in, fitted the 1/4" rod ends and have had no >>> problems in over 200 hrs of flight, and like Lowell, check them prior >>> to, and after each day of flying. >>> >>> Lynn >>> On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 05:33 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Jerry, >>>> >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab strut >>>> and it is part of my preflight check. >>>> >>>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have been >>>> no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful use, >>>> would there be a reason to change the design? >>>> >>>> Lowell >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end on >>>>> the rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod ends >>>>> are used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the loads. >>>>> Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail struts and >>>>> finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for the tail. Using >>>>> straight struts in the Avid left little room for error but resulted in >>>>> a stronger wing and tail. >>>>> Jerry Liles >>>>> >>>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at the >>>>>> Avids >>>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> Dave, >>>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take it >>>>>> for gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod end but >>>>>> also here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are rough copies >>>>>> of Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the carry through tube >>>>>> and there is an AD out for that. I understand they have a weaker >>>>>> tube, maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. What >>>>>> do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video copied >>>>>> by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a copy could >>>>>> first check with Grant that this is on the Video then buy a copy from >>>>>> him. I remember his price was extremely reasonable and there was a >>>>>> lot of interesting stuff on the DVD copy like loops and rolls in a >>>>>> Kitfox. >>>>>> Rex. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:59 AM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Don, I would like it keep the option for adjustment and the Rod ends seem to serve well. Would your modification be considered a airframe modification? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 7:28 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > I have this mod on my list of things to do. Just remove one rod (with rod > end) at a time. pre-drill the fuselage end and attach new rod. Put a > tick mark down through the hole in the stab where you want the new rod > drilled. I think that should be as close as you need it. > > Don Smythe. > > -- Original Message ----- > From: "dave" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:09 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > >> >> Don, You would have to get the hole drilled perfect in that case. >> >> I drop the front of my horiz. stab when floats go on and have to adjust >> a few timesto get hands free flights. >> Same thing going back to wheels in fall. Ski season approaching soon. >> :) >> >> BTW Don I saw your Fox on Barnstormers. Looks great !! Surprising how >> these Kitfox sell so cheap and at a fraction of a new Kit. Yours only >> has 150 hours? Good deal for some one. >> If anyone looking fora 582 Amphib fox there is one there as well on >> Aerocet floats for 25k . Flaots worth about 8k alone. Great deal >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Don Smythe" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:59 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >> >> >>> >>> Just a thought, once the horizontal stabilizers are adjusted for proper >>> flight why not replace the horizontal struts with "fixed" units. That >>> is, replace with tubing with crimped ends and no rod ends to break. >>> >>> Don Smythe >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lynn Matteson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:59 PM >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>> I bought the 1/4" threaded stud inserts to fit those forward hort. stab >>>> struts, and welded them in, fitted the 1/4" rod ends and have had no >>>> problems in over 200 hrs of flight, and like Lowell, check them prior >>>> to, and after each day of flying. >>>> >>>> Lynn >>>> On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 05:33 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jerry, >>>>> >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab strut >>>>> and it is part of my preflight check. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>>>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have >>>>> been no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful >>>>> use, would there be a reason to change the design? >>>>> >>>>> Lowell >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end on >>>>>> the rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod ends >>>>>> are used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the loads. >>>>>> Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail struts and >>>>>> finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for the tail. >>>>>> Using straight struts in the Avid left little room for error but >>>>>> resulted in a stronger wing and tail. >>>>>> Jerry Liles >>>>>> >>>>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at the >>>>>>> Avids >>>>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> Dave, >>>>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take it >>>>>>> for gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod end >>>>>>> but also here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are rough >>>>>>> copies of Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the carry >>>>>>> through tube and there is an AD out for that. I understand they have >>>>>>> a weaker tube, maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. What >>>>>>> do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video >>>>>>> copied by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a >>>>>>> copy could first check with Grant that this is on the Video then buy >>>>>>> a copy from him. I remember his price was extremely reasonable and >>>>>>> there was a lot of interesting stuff on the DVD copy like loops and >>>>>>> rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>>>> Rex. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:26 AM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point rod end - horiz stab. Jerry -- I canno see the rod ends breaking from normal use. I would think that some have used the horiz stab Strut for moving tail around. Now if you bend a rodend and more than once or twice, I could see it breaking at a thread. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > While it never caused a crash that I'm aware of there were just too many > incidents of failure of the horizontal stab rod ends to call it ok. I > recall one incident a few years ago related by a member of the Kitfox list > of having to wrestle his airplane back home as it suddenly wanted to > descend and turn and he could not figure out why until someone on the list > suggested he inspect the horizontal stab. If the forces had been a bit > greater the stab might have twisted or fluttered and made the plane > uncontrollable or stressed the rear rod end to failure. That might have > hurt. As for the rod ends on the wings they seem to be trouble free and > adequately strong and make it easier to correct any minor misalignments, > certainly more so than on an Avid, though I had no problem with mine. > > dave wrote: > >> >> Lowell, >> >> I agree on the horiz stab rod ends being ok. I think alot of the >> problem might have been from the pilot pulling on it rather than the >> grab handle ? >> >> As far as the wings, I agree they seem strong but the idea for 2 rod >> ends on the strut if probably to make up for builing errors if any as >> well as adjustment. . I have not heard of them coming apart but I have >> broken them on other applications. They are tiny compared to GA >> aircraft. That being said, has ther ever been an in flight breakup of a >> Kitfox ? >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >> >> >>> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> Interesting. >>> >>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab strut and >>> it is part of my preflight check. >>> >>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have been >>> no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful use, >>> would there be a reason to change the design? >>> >>> Lowell >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end on the >>>> rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod ends are >>>> used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the loads. >>>> Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail struts and >>>> finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for the tail. Using >>>> straight struts in the Avid left little room for error but resulted in >>>> a stronger wing and tail. >>>> Jerry Liles >>>> >>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>> >>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at the >>>>> Avids >>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>> Dave >>>>> Dave, >>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take it for >>>>> gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod end but also >>>>> here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are rough copies of >>>>> Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the carry through tube and >>>>> there is an AD out for that. I understand they have a weaker tube, >>>>> maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. What >>>>> do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video copied >>>>> by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a copy could >>>>> first check with Grant that this is on the Video then buy a copy from >>>>> him. I remember his price was extremely reasonable and there was a lot >>>>> of interesting stuff on the DVD copy like loops and rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>> >>>>> Rex. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:07 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point I would think that once they are set to length, they should not ever need changing. However, I believe you mention changing to floats and this might require a seasonal change?? If I remember correctly, the rod ends on the stabs are 3/16" where every other rod end on my Fox is 1/4" or bigger. I also seem to remember that Fox's sold overseas required the stab rod ends to be upgraded to 1/4". There has been a couple cases where the rod ends were found broken after a flight. Regardless whether they broke due to flight or rough ground handling, I think a good field fix might be in order. I don't know if this type mod would be considered an airframe mod or not but probably would. So, that is another question. I'd say, you can do the mod, log it and forget it??? If you have a case where winter/summer lengths are different, make two sets. This is probably not a major concern but is always on my preflight check list to wiggle all four rods. I've had my plane moved many times by other hanger mates and you never know what they might do in moving your plane. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 8:17 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > Don, I would like it keep the option for adjustment and the Rod ends seem > to serve well. > Would your modification be considered a airframe modification? > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Smythe" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 7:28 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > >> >> I have this mod on my list of things to do. Just remove one rod (with >> rod end) at a time. pre-drill the fuselage end and attach new rod. Put >> a tick mark down through the hole in the stab where you want the new rod >> drilled. I think that should be as close as you need it. >> >> Don Smythe. >> >> -- Original Message ----- >> From: "dave" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:09 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >> >> >>> >>> Don, You would have to get the hole drilled perfect in that case. >>> >>> I drop the front of my horiz. stab when floats go on and have to adjust >>> a few timesto get hands free flights. >>> Same thing going back to wheels in fall. Ski season approaching soon. >>> :) >>> >>> BTW Don I saw your Fox on Barnstormers. Looks great !! Surprising how >>> these Kitfox sell so cheap and at a fraction of a new Kit. Yours only >>> has 150 hours? Good deal for some one. >>> If anyone looking fora 582 Amphib fox there is one there as well on >>> Aerocet floats for 25k . Flaots worth about 8k alone. Great deal >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Don Smythe" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:59 PM >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Just a thought, once the horizontal stabilizers are adjusted for proper >>>> flight why not replace the horizontal struts with "fixed" units. That >>>> is, replace with tubing with crimped ends and no rod ends to break. >>>> >>>> Don Smythe >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lynn Matteson" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I bought the 1/4" threaded stud inserts to fit those forward hort. >>>>> stab struts, and welded them in, fitted the 1/4" rod ends and have had >>>>> no problems in over 200 hrs of flight, and like Lowell, check them >>>>> prior to, and after each day of flying. >>>>> >>>>> Lynn >>>>> On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 05:33 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jerry, >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab strut >>>>>> and it is part of my preflight check. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>>>>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have >>>>>> been no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful >>>>>> use, would there be a reason to change the design? >>>>>> >>>>>> Lowell >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end on >>>>>>> the rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod ends >>>>>>> are used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the loads. >>>>>>> Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail struts and >>>>>>> finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for the tail. >>>>>>> Using straight struts in the Avid left little room for error but >>>>>>> resulted in a stronger wing and tail. >>>>>>> Jerry Liles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at >>>>>>>> the Avids >>>>>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> Dave, >>>>>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take it >>>>>>>> for gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod end >>>>>>>> but also here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are rough >>>>>>>> copies of Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the carry >>>>>>>> through tube and there is an AD out for that. I understand they >>>>>>>> have a weaker tube, maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. >>>>>>>> What do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video >>>>>>>> copied by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a >>>>>>>> copy could first check with Grant that this is on the Video then >>>>>>>> buy a copy from him. I remember his price was extremely reasonable >>>>>>>> and there was a lot of interesting stuff on the DVD copy like loops >>>>>>>> and rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>>>>> Rex. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:39 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Jerry, Apples and oranges here. The failure with wrestle had to do with the jack screw in the larger models that trimmed the horizontal stabilizer. That is what failed. It had nothing to do with the struts, though it is agreed that the larger models the struts had been beefed up and possibly with the use of accepted AN fittings. I remember two - maybe more of the rod ends - rather the stud going into the rod ends - failing and it was discovered on the ground after a flight. I don't recall if there was a "feeling" in flight, but it definitely was not a wrestle. There was an upgrade offered, but I couldn't find a Service Letter or Bulletin on the issue. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > While it never caused a crash that I'm aware of there were just too many > incidents of failure of the horizontal stab rod ends to call it ok. I > recall one incident a few years ago related by a member of the Kitfox list > of having to wrestle his airplane back home as it suddenly wanted to > descend and turn and he could not figure out why until someone on the list > suggested he inspect the horizontal stab. If the forces had been a bit > greater the stab might have twisted or fluttered and made the plane > uncontrollable or stressed the rear rod end to failure. That might have > hurt. As for the rod ends on the wings they seem to be trouble free and > adequately strong and make it easier to correct any minor misalignments, > certainly more so than on an Avid, though I had no problem with mine. > > dave wrote: > >> >> Lowell, >> >> I agree on the horiz stab rod ends being ok. I think alot of the >> problem might have been from the pilot pulling on it rather than the >> grab handle ? >> >> As far as the wings, I agree they seem strong but the idea for 2 rod >> ends on the strut if probably to make up for builing errors if any as >> well as adjustment. . I have not heard of them coming apart but I have >> broken them on other applications. They are tiny compared to GA >> aircraft. That being said, has ther ever been an in flight breakup of a >> Kitfox ? >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >> >> >>> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> Interesting. >>> >>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab strut and >>> it is part of my preflight check. >>> >>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have been >>> no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful use, >>> would there be a reason to change the design? >>> >>> Lowell >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end on the >>>> rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod ends are >>>> used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the loads. >>>> Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail struts and >>>> finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for the tail. Using >>>> straight struts in the Avid left little room for error but resulted in >>>> a stronger wing and tail. >>>> Jerry Liles >>>> >>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>> >>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at the >>>>> Avids >>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>> Dave >>>>> Dave, >>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take it for >>>>> gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod end but also >>>>> here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are rough copies of >>>>> Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the carry through tube and >>>>> there is an AD out for that. I understand they have a weaker tube, >>>>> maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. What >>>>> do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video copied >>>>> by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a copy could >>>>> first check with Grant that this is on the Video then buy a copy from >>>>> him. I remember his price was extremely reasonable and there was a lot >>>>> of interesting stuff on the DVD copy like loops and rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>> >>>>> Rex. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:01 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Overdue plane Hi Ron, Been there, done that too many times myself in the Marines. I hope for a close call and a pleasant surprise. Keep us informed. Kurt S. S-5 --- ron schick wrote: > My friends I fear the worst for my neighbor and > friend. At about 4:00 my > Kitfox and I were in loose formation with N914C and > now at 8:43 the hanger > is empty, the trucks are still there, and the police > have been to his house. > Hug your wife, kids or whatever and remember there > is no reset button. A > picture of a non Kitfox friend. Ron NB Ore (Coos > Bay) Cheap talk? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:19 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine cooling - was Subaru EA-81 That is a lot of great info Jan. Thanks. The engine heat diagram is very informative. I am reminded of the piston jet engine I read about years ago. The entire thrust of the engine was a produce of the exhaust. No prop. The piston was free to oscillate between 2 cylinder heads on opposite ends of a cylinder. It was a 2 cycle, and the intake and exhaust were in the middle of the cylinder. The exhaust was fed into a chamber where water was injected and the steam was then blown out thru a nozzel. Lots of thrust and noise were the results. But I wonder how much of the origional energy was turned into thrust by this simple engine? It could have been much more energy efficient than our piston engines turning a prop. But the need to carry a lot of water around to make the steam for continuous thrust was certainly a reason for it to never be produced. What keeps it in my memory is that our heat loss thru the exhaust can be used for short periods of time and much thrust using a small amount of water. It would be interesting to figure out how much thrust can be gained for how long with one gallon of water. Could be a great short field performer. Even better, you can get more thrust on floats, where you can feed water from the lake rather than carrying it with you. Much thrust increase for little added weight, but then there is the back pressure in the exhaust to contend with too. Just some ideas to pass out for those who want to really experiment. Kurt S. S-5 --- JC Propellerdesign wrote: > Here is a lot interesting information about cooling, > > http://www.rotaryeng.net/how-to-cool12.html > > Also attached is an excel file for cooling estimate. > > Jan Carlsson > www.jcpropellerdesign.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:54 AM PST US From: "Peter Graichen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EA-81 fuel NO! Peter Graichen http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm Peter: Did you use any type of lead scavinger? Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Graichen" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: EA-81 fuel > > I have used nothing but 100LL av-fuel in over 1000 hrs of operation in my > NSI EA-81 Subaru without any problems. > Peter Graichen > http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:05 AM PST US From: "Peter Graichen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Subaru EA-81 Hello Dick: I use the aluminum radiator furnished by NSI which is 24 x 6 x 2 inch. I installed a 180 deg thermostat. I confirmed with extensive instrumented tests NSI's statement that the oil temperature is essentially always the same as or within a few degrees of the coolant temperature. Therefore an oil cooler is not required. Peter Graichen http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm I am curious to what size radiators are being used (Square inches) with success for proper cooling on a Subaru EA-81 engine with carburetors. Also is an oil cooler necessary? Thanks Dick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:19 AM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes Here are some pics of some of the current model testing that was done for the IV as well. http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/testing information.htm Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes In the sales brochure from the period I ordered my kit (1992) there is the picture mentioned, but I have never seen a discussion describing the test and the failure mode, except on the list. It shows a fuselage with wings, upside-down with bags of something that created bowing on both spars inboard of the strut and sagging outboard. There is also a picture of the horizontal Stabilizer, this time right side up with similar weights on it. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron schick" Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes > > > Rex I have that picture somewhere in My Avid builders manual. Never saw > it in all of my Kitfox materials. Perhaps there is one, but not in my > 92' speedster manual. Last time I scanned and posted I overdosed the Avid > photo section. Not very good at downsizing so if someone else finds one > first..... Ron NB Ore > > >>From: GypsyBeeInnkeepers >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes >>Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:57:54 -0700 >> >> >> >>Somewhere in one of the old kitfox newsletters, from Denny Aircraft I >>believe, is a article with a picture of a kitfox wing mounted upside down >>to a test rig and a great many sand bags placed on the wing for a static >>load test. I think the wing structure supported the equivalent of over >>15G's before failure. Not sure how we should relate the test to this whole >>subject. >>I'm away from home and the article or I would offer to upload a copy. >>Maybe someone else has it? >> >>Rex Hefferan >>Colorado >> >> >>Noel Loveys wrote: >> >>>The stresses on the struts are tensional and I'm sure they are way over >>>2000lb tensional strength. ( 100% over stress for the weight of the >>>plane ) What is the diameter or you carry through tube? My rear support >>>legs are attached to the lower chines next to the carry through tube. I >>>haven't looked inside yet but I wouldn't be surprised to find a couple of >>>cluster welds there to distribute the stress of the rear float legs. >>> >>> >>>Noel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *dave >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2006 3:02 PM >>> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW - Strut sizes >>> >>> Noel, For referance my IV struts are 1.00 " -- no idea >>> on the >>> thickness. I would be concerned about the carry through diameter >>> and thickness as well. On Floats the carry through tube supports >>> the rear float support legs just behind the step as well as the >>> wing loads from the struts. I would call John McBean for >>> his insights. >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Noel Loveys >>> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:19 PM >>> *Subject:* RE: Kitfox-List: Model II MTOW >>> >>> My plane is #736 I know there is an "I" beam inside the >>> spars. the struts are .75" and I haven't had a chance yet to >>> check the carry through. The plane is on floats >>> and as the floats themselves will fly >>> their own weight I'm sure the plane can handle 1050lb. on >>> floats. the issue now becomes one of insurance. I've >>> contacted TC (Transport Canada) and they are willing to change >>> the gross weight for me. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by > style, age, and price. Try it! > http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tc ode=wlmtagline > > -- -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:11 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Testing my memory but didn't they offer the aero tubing and 1/4x28 rod ends. The up grade was very expensive. Paul ============== At 09:29 AM 12/3/2006, you wrote: > >Jerry, > >Apples and oranges here. The failure with wrestle had to do with >the jack screw in the larger models that trimmed the horizontal >stabilizer. That is what failed. It had nothing to do with the >struts, though it is agreed that the larger models the struts had >been beefed up and possibly with the use of accepted AN fittings. > >I remember two - maybe more of the rod ends - rather the stud going >into the rod ends - failing and it was discovered on the ground >after a flight. I don't recall if there was a "feeling" in flight, >but it definitely was not a wrestle. There was an upgrade offered, >but I couldn't find a Service Letter or Bulletin on the issue. > >Lowell >----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:26 PM >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > >> >>While it never caused a crash that I'm aware of there were just too >>many incidents of failure of the horizontal stab rod ends to call >>it ok. I recall one incident a few years ago related by a member >>of the Kitfox list of having to wrestle his airplane back home as >>it suddenly wanted to descend and turn and he could not figure out >>why until someone on the list suggested he inspect the horizontal >>stab. If the forces had been a bit greater the stab might have >>twisted or fluttered and made the plane uncontrollable or stressed >>the rear rod end to failure. That might have hurt. As for the rod >>ends on the wings they seem to be trouble free and adequately >>strong and make it easier to correct any minor misalignments, >>certainly more so than on an Avid, though I had no problem with mine. >> >>dave wrote: >> >>> >>>Lowell, >>> >>>I agree on the horiz stab rod ends being ok. I think alot of >>>the problem might have been from the pilot pulling on it rather >>>than the grab handle ? >>> >>>As far as the wings, I agree they seem strong but the idea for 2 >>>rod ends on the strut if probably to make up for builing errors if >>>any as well as adjustment. . I have not heard of them coming >>>apart but I have broken them on other applications. They are tiny >>>compared to GA aircraft. That being said, has ther ever been an >>>in flight breakup of a Kitfox ? >>> >>> >>>Dave >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" >>>To: >>>Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:33 PM >>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Jerry, >>>> >>>>Interesting. >>>> >>>>I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab >>>>strut and it is part of my preflight check. >>>> >>>>Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the >>>>Kifox design with more "room for error" is a proven design as >>>>there have been no structural failures. If after about 15 years >>>>of uneventful use, would there be a reason to change the design? >>>> >>>>Lowell >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end >>>>>on the rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other >>>>>rod ends are used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear >>>>>take the loads. Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing >>>>>in tail struts and finally went to beefier rod ends or simple >>>>>struts for the tail. Using straight struts in the Avid left >>>>>little room for error but resulted in a stronger wing and tail. >>>>>Jerry Liles >>>>> >>>>>Rex Shaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Where did it fail ? >>>>>>The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>>>Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look >>>>>>at the Avids >>>>>>they do not use rod ends. >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> Dave, >>>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one >>>>>> take it for gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is >>>>>> the rod end but also here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's >>>>>> that are rough copies of Kitfox's. These are apparently >>>>>> failing at the carry through tube and there is an AD out for >>>>>> that. I understand they have a weaker tube, maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod >>>>>> ends. What do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video >>>>>> copied by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants >>>>>> a copy could first check with Grant that this is on the Video >>>>>> then buy a copy from him. I remember his price was extremely >>>>>> reasonable and there was a lot of interesting stuff on the DVD >>>>>> copy like loops and rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>>> >>>>>>Rex. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:43 PM PST US From: Jerry Liles Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Lowell There was an incident of tail strut failure in flight with difficulty maintaining steady level flight that was reported to this list. This was a Model 4, not a Model 5 with the jackscrew trim system. The correspondent couldn't figure out what had happened until someone (might have been me) asked him to inspect the tail lift struts. My point is failures have occurred for whatever reason and may well occur again. This is a type of failure that is survivable but is potentially disasterous. Kitfox (Skystar) finally upgraded the struts to larger rodend fittings. My feeling is the small rod end fittings on Model 4 are a known point of failure,whether from improper ground handling, improper assembly, or stress of flight, with potential for disaster and I would replace them. Back then the list manager had a reguarly updated message called "Kitfox Safe" where all the problems and potential problems and how to handle them were listed. Unfortunately I have a relatively new computer and I do not have a copy of Kitfox Safe. Perhaps someone else saved a copy? Jerry Liles Lowell Fitt wrote: > > Jerry, > > Apples and oranges here. The failure with wrestle had to do with the > jack screw in the larger models that trimmed the horizontal > stabilizer. That is what failed. It had nothing to do with the > struts, though it is agreed that the larger models the struts had been > beefed up and possibly with the use of accepted AN fittings. > > I remember two - maybe more of the rod ends - rather the stud going > into the rod ends - failing and it was discovered on the ground after > a flight. I don't recall if there was a "feeling" in flight, but it > definitely was not a wrestle. There was an upgrade offered, but I > couldn't find a Service Letter or Bulletin on the issue. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:26 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > >> >> While it never caused a crash that I'm aware of there were just too >> many incidents of failure of the horizontal stab rod ends to call it >> ok. I recall one incident a few years ago related by a member of the >> Kitfox list of having to wrestle his airplane back home as it >> suddenly wanted to descend and turn and he could not figure out why >> until someone on the list suggested he inspect the horizontal stab. >> If the forces had been a bit greater the stab might have twisted or >> fluttered and made the plane uncontrollable or stressed the rear rod >> end to failure. That might have hurt. As for the rod ends on the >> wings they seem to be trouble free and adequately strong and make it >> easier to correct any minor misalignments, certainly more so than on >> an Avid, though I had no problem with mine. >> >> dave wrote: >> >>> >>> Lowell, >>> >>> I agree on the horiz stab rod ends being ok. I think alot of the >>> problem might have been from the pilot pulling on it rather than >>> the grab handle ? >>> >>> As far as the wings, I agree they seem strong but the idea for 2 >>> rod ends on the strut if probably to make up for builing errors if >>> any as well as adjustment. . I have not heard of them coming apart >>> but I have broken them on other applications. They are tiny >>> compared to GA aircraft. That being said, has ther ever been an in >>> flight breakup of a Kitfox ? >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jerry, >>>> >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> I still have the 3/16 rod ends on the foreward horizontal stab >>>> strut and it is part of my preflight check. >>>> >>>> Regarding stronger wings. I wonder if this is a plus, as the Kifox >>>> design with more "room for error" is a proven design as there have >>>> been no structural failures. If after about 15 years of uneventful >>>> use, would there be a reason to change the design? >>>> >>>> Lowell >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Liles" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:25 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Avid's, at least from the B model on, use one large size rod end >>>>> on the rear strut of the left wing to allow trimming. No other rod >>>>> ends are used in the wing or tail struts. Bolts in shear take the >>>>> loads. Kitfox had some problems with rod ends failing in tail >>>>> struts and finally went to beefier rod ends or simple struts for >>>>> the tail. Using straight struts in the Avid left little room for >>>>> error but resulted in a stronger wing and tail. >>>>> Jerry Liles >>>>> >>>>> Rex Shaw wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where did it fail ? >>>>>> The carry throguh tube would be one of the weakest links. >>>>>> Rod ends would be the next weakest link I think. If you look at >>>>>> the Avids >>>>>> they do not use rod ends. >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> Dave, >>>>>> I'm only going on memory here so please no one take >>>>>> it for gospel but I seem to remember the weakest link is the rod >>>>>> end but also here in Australia anyway we have Skyfox's that are >>>>>> rough copies of Kitfox's. These are apparently failing at the >>>>>> carry through tube and there is an AD out for that. I understand >>>>>> they have a weaker tube, maybe wall thickness not sure ! >>>>>> Also took my interest to read the Avid does not use rod ends. >>>>>> What do they do ? I assume just a bolt ! Is it in shear ? >>>>>> I think that loading the wing to failure point is on a video >>>>>> copied by Grant Fluent on this list. I guess anyone that wants a >>>>>> copy could first check with Grant that this is on the Video then >>>>>> buy a copy from him. I remember his price was extremely >>>>>> reasonable and there was a lot of interesting stuff on the DVD >>>>>> copy like loops and rolls in a Kitfox. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rex. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:22 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: Kitfox-List: N914C Now a search and recovery. Witnesses reported a straight in about 300 yards offshore. I flew the coast more than an hour today and saw only sea lions and bubbles from the divers. Sonar arrives tommorow. Ron NB Ore _________________________________________________________________ View Athletes Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:24 PM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Jerry I have all the KifoxSafe items and below is a pasted copy of Item 21 which deals with the horizontal stabilizer rod ends. Regards Ted ------------------------------------------------------- #21 3/25/98 (MAJOR) (MODEL IV'S ONLY) HORIZONTAL STABILIZER SUPPORT STRUTS BREAKING AT 3/16" THREADED END. Loss of horizontal stabilizer support and possible Elevator control. 1. Replace support struts and rod ends with ones that are equipped with 1/4" threaded ends. 2. Take extreme caution that the Horizontal Stabilizer is never used to move the Aircraft around on the ground. 3. Inspect frequently. 4. Look for a method to "BEEF" up the joint. 5. (AT THE REQUEST OF SS) SS has a 1/4" strut kit for sale at a price of $185. PART # 10581 ------------------------------------------------- -------SNIP------ Back then the list manager had a reguarly updated message called "Kitfox Safe" where all the problems and potential problems and how to handle them were listed. Unfortunately I have a relatively new computer and I do not have a copy of Kitfox Safe. Perhaps someone else saved a copy? Jerry Liles ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:07 PM PST US From: "Tim Vader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Ted Could you post a list or a file of all the KitfoxSafe items. I'd like to have a look at all of them. I haven't been on the list that long and have never seen the list. Thanks, Tim Vader Calgary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Palamarek" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 6:58 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Failure Point > > > Jerry > > I have all the KifoxSafe items and below is a pasted copy of Item 21 which > deals with the horizontal stabilizer rod ends. > > Regards Ted > > ------------------------------------------------------- > #21 3/25/98 > > (MAJOR) (MODEL IV'S ONLY) HORIZONTAL STABILIZER > SUPPORT STRUTS BREAKING AT 3/16" THREADED END. Loss of horizontal > stabilizer support and possible Elevator control. > 1. Replace support struts and rod ends with ones that are equipped with > 1/4" > threaded ends. > 2. Take extreme caution that the Horizontal Stabilizer is never used to > move > the Aircraft around on the ground. > 3. Inspect frequently. > 4. Look for a method to "BEEF" up the joint. > 5. (AT THE REQUEST OF SS) SS has a 1/4" strut kit for sale at a price of > $185. PART # 10581 > ------------------------------------------------- > > > -------SNIP------ > Back then the list manager had a reguarly updated message called "Kitfox > Safe" where all the problems and potential problems and how to handle > them were listed. Unfortunately I have a relatively new computer and I > do not have a copy of Kitfox Safe. Perhaps someone else saved a copy? > > Jerry Liles > > > -- > 25/11/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:08 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Here is a list of "KitfoxSafe" items started by Don Smith. He put a lot of effort into it and deserves Kudos. Don Pearsall ______________ KITFOXSAFE CONCERNS AND COMMENTS This is a list of safety concerns submitted by Kitfox builders and compiled by Don Smythe KITFOXSAFE CONCERNS AND COMMENTS KITFOXSAFE CONCERNS AND COMMENTS ******************************** * NEW CONCERN * * THROTTLE CABLE CLUSTER SOCKETS * ******** #39 CONCERN: (MINOR) THROTTLE AND INJECTOR CABLES JUMPING THEIR SOCKETS; DATE: 11-23-99 IMPACT: The barrels on the ends of the cables have been know to jump out of the "sockets" at the throttle cluster. This will cause the throttles or oil injection functions to be extremely out of sync. "LIST": 1. Find a means (safety wire, tie wrap, etc.) to better hold the cable ends in the cluster sockets. ******** #38 CONCERN: (MINOR) (PRIMARILY 582??) ROTAX STARTER GEAR SPRING BREAKING; DATE: 9-30-99 IMPACT: Freezing up the Rotax starter and possible (but not likely) damage to starter and flywheel. "LIST": 1. Periodically lubricate the starter gear/shaft. 2. NOTE: Reportedly, the Rotax/SS manual recommends lubricating at each annual. 3. Possible choice for lubrication is motor cycle chain lube oil. It's designed with an anti-fling additive. Can be applied without removing engine/starter. ******** #37 CONCERN: (MINOR)(582 ONLY) ROTARY VALVE RESERVOIR HOSES FAILING; DATE: 7-23-99 IMPACT: Leaking or loss of rotary valve oil. Could result in engine damage "LIST": 1. Replace the original "braided" lines with an automotive type hose. 2. NOTE: The engine fitting is 7/16" whereas, the original hose is 3/8". This causes a stretching of the hose over the fitting and a potential stress point. Understand that 7/16" I.D. hose might be hard to locate. Try a farm products outlet for 7/16" ID hose. ******** #36 CONCERN: (MAJOR) MIL-6000 RUBBER FUEL LINES SWELLING SHUT; DATE: 7-22-99 IMPACT: Fuel starvation and engine failure. Recent incident resulted in significant reduced power at landing. Mil-6000 lines were 3 years old. Exterior inspection will not reveal the internal swelling. "LIST": 1. Change Mil-6000 fuel lines to an automotive type, Polyurethane, or Tygon (translucent yellow #F-40-40-A) 2. Replace fuel lines at each annual or every other annual 3. Perform periodic fuel flow rate test. 4. Note fuel flow rate with/without filters installed. Insure the addition of filters don't reduce fuel rates below spec (150% of max fuel usage). ******** #35 CONCERN: (MAJOR) GSC CTA PROP HUB PISTON BEARING FREEZING DATE: 7-19-99 IMPACT: There is a small bearing and piston in the prop hub that controls the pitch of the blades. This bearing has a recommended replacement of 100 hours. To date, two know failures have been reported to the list. One at 40 hours of service and the other at 5 hours. Bearing failure causes the blades to fail to a fine pitch and the ability to maintain altitude may be lost. "LIST": 1. Insure the failed (minimum) pitch will sustain flight. Adjust if possible. ******** #34 CONCERN: (MINOR)(PRIMARILY SERIES V) FIBERGLASS SEAT BREAKING RESULTING IN JAMMED CONTROL LINKAGE DATE: 6-29-99 IMPACT: Breaking of the seat or seat coming loose from the fuselage support tubes could result in the below control tubes becoming Jammed. A complete loss of control of the aircraft could occur. "LIST": 1. Ensure the seat is properly and securely attached to the fuselage tubing 2. Look at reinforcing the fiberglass seat in the areas where it attaches to the tubes 3. Provide full length support from top to bottom (seat lips) with either stainless strap or webbing of some sort. 4. Consider using metal hose clamps vice plastic tie wraps to secure the seat. 5. Inspect the seat frequently for signs of cracking. Especially after any hard landings. ******** #33 CONCERN: (MINOR) (532-582) FAILURE OF FLOAT GUIDES IN THE BING CARBS DATE: 6-29-99 IMPACT: There was a article concerning the small guides in the Bing carbs (floats) wearing due to vibration. Once the guides were worn, the float body starts to wear and pieces of the float found their way to the jets. The result is engine failure due to fuel starvation. The guide in question is the bottom one. "LISTS": Inspect the bottom and top guides where the push rod passes through the float body frequently. Repair/ replace if necessary. ******** #032 CONCERN: (MAJOR)(582ONLY) FAILURE OF PULSE DRIVEN FUEL PUMP DUE TO PULSE LINE / PUMP DIAPHRAGM DATE: 6-14-99 IMPACT: loss of engine due to failure of pump diaphragm or engine pulse line "LIST": 1. Check pulse line (and all fuel lines) frequently for cracks and signs of drying out. Replace as necessary. 2. Consider replacing pulse lines and all other fuel lines at regular annual intervals. 3. Consider overhauling or replacing the pulse operated fuel pump at some regular interval (annual/bi-annual,etc.) 4. Consider the addition of a back up electrical pump. 5. CAUTION; a ruptured pump diaphragm will cause the engine crankcase to flood with raw fuel through the engine pulse line. A backup elec pump installed in series with the fuel line will not help this situation. 6. CAUTION; a leaking pulse line could result in an extreme lean engine mixture. ******** #031 CONCERN: (MINOR) SEPARATION OF THE BUTT RIB CAPSTRIP FROM THE BUTT RIB DATE: 5-5-99 IMPACT: During moderate to severe turbulence, a Kitfox had its butt rib capstrip separate from the rest of the rib that left a 1/2" gap between the windshield and the butt rib. This condition could cause undo stress on the windshield and premature breakage. "LIST": Attach several short alum angle pieces on the inside of the butt rib that will tie the horizontal capstrip to the vertical rib. One member also used the alum pieces to attach "nut plates" where he then bolted the windshield to the capstrips vice pop-rivet. ******** #030 CONCERN: (MAJOR) SELECTION AND INSTALLATION OF FUEL FILTERS DATE: 5-3-99 IMPACT: Fuel starvation due to improper filters or installation. "LIST": 1. The glass Purolator filters are rated at 40-70 Micron. The 40 rating is 50% effective whereas the 70 rating is 98% effective. Possible good pre-filter at wing tank. 2. Never use filters without knowing the Micron rating. 3. Paper element filters can clog if subjected to water. 4. Fiberglass fragments are "invisible" to the eye in see through filters. ******** #029 CONCERN: (MAJOR) ELEVATOR TRIM MOTOR "HOUSING" BREAKING. (SERIES 5 ONLY) DATE: 3-8-99 IMPACT: Elevator is allowed to "flop" from limit to limit resulting in uncontrollable elevator. (one Kitfox lost to date. Unable to flare during landing) "LIST": 1. Inspect housing frequently for signs of cracking. 2. Investigate a method to limit the elevator travel if break occurs (cable, block, etc.). ******** #028 CONCERN: (MINOR) FLAPERON HINGE'S FREEZING DATE: 2-5-99 IMPACT: Loss of Flaperon control "LIST": 1. Lubricate with silicon or something to prevent water build up in the hinge area. 2. Prevent water intrusion in wet climates ******** #027 CONCERN: (MAJOR) ROTAX 912 ENGINE MOUNTS CRACKING DATE: 1/26/99 IMPACT: Loss of engine support "LIST": 1. Three failures have been reported. One was first hand and the other two were second hand reports. 2. Inspect carefully for any evidence of hairline cracks starting to occur in the ASTM 4130 Chrome Alloy tubing. 3. Re-weld and add sufficient additional support. ******** #026 CONCERN: (MINOR) POSSIBLE FUEL STARVATION DATE: 12/22/98 IMPACT: Some circumstances can cause fuel starvation from the wing tanks to the header tank "LIST": 1. Ensure a continuous "downward" routing of fuel lines from wing to header 2. Check filters frequently for fiberglass/Kreem particles 3. Be cautious with "paper" type filters in areas where water might be a factor. 4. Check fuel tank strainers frequently for particles. ******** #025 CONCERN: (MINOR) BROKEN/CRACKED MUFFLERS ON THE 912 DUE TO VIBRATION DATE: 12/01/98 IMPACT: Possible fire in the engine compartment or exhaust in cockpit "LIST": 1. Re-weld and "Beef" up joints by adding a steel bar to further support the exhaust pipe 2. Check at preflight by giving a tug on the exhaust pipe 3. NDT (Dye Penetrate) at annual ******** #024 CONCERN: (MAJOR) ROTAX 912 OIL PRESSURE REDUCTION/LOSS DATE: 11-19-98 IMPACT: Damage to engine or engine failure "LIST": John King's problem has been isolated to a crimped oil line caused by a hose clamp. The crimp was at a short section of line at the oil filter fitting. The Earl cooler appears "NOT" to be the problem. Other members are still investigating their causes. ******** #023 CONCERN: (MAJOR) FUEL TANK COATINGS, CRACKING (KREEM); DATE: 6-15-98 IMPACT: Engine failure; Fuel system contamination; "LIST": 1. Remove old Kreem with MEK/Acetone 2. Re-coat tanks with new (Kreem) OR NOT 3. Inspect tank interiors regular for signs of cracking or flaking of Kreem. 4. Inspect fuel samples for signs of white Kreem particles 5. Clean tank strainers regularly. 6. Replace fuel filters regularly. ******** #022 CONCERN: (MAJOR) FUEL TANKS; FIBERGLASS FRAGMENTS CLOGGING FILTERS; TRANSPARENT TO THE EYE THROUGH GLASS FILTERS DATE: 7-20-98 IMPACT: Engine failure; Clogged fuel system "LIST": 1. Replace filters regularly. 2. Cut open old filters and check for fragments and other debris. Fiberglass particles have been reported as transparent in the glass type filters. ******** #021 CONCERN: (MAJOR) (MODEL IV's ONLY) HORIZONTAL STABILIZER SUPPORT STRUTS BREAKING AT 3/16" THREADED END. DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Loss of horizontal stabilizer support and possible Elevator control. "LIST": 1. Replace support struts and rod ends with ones that are equipped with 1/4" threaded ends. 2. Take extreme caution that the Horizontal Stabilizer is never used to move the Aircraft around on the ground. 3. Inspect frequently. 4. Look for a method to "BEEF" up the joint. ******** #020 CONCERN: (MAJOR) (PRIMARILY 912's ONLY) ROTAX IGNITION MODULES; WIRES BREAKING DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Loss of ignition or, one half the ignition system "LIST": 1. Relocate ign modules from the engine to the firewall 2. Immobilize the Rotax wiring and provide extension harness of MIL-Spec wiring and connectors. ******** #019 CONCERN: (MAJOR) RUDDER/BRAKE CONTROL TUBING; BREAKING AT WELDS (SERIES IV ONLY) DATE: 12-7-98 IMPACT: Loss of Rudder and Brake control "LIST": 1. Install retrofit kit provided by Skystar 2. Install reinforcement straps around the tubing at the welded joints. Weld or rivet in place ******** #018 CONCERN: (MAJOR) RUDDER JAM DUE TO REAR LOCATED RUDDER ADJUSTMENT LINKS; DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Possible rudder jam at full rudder "LIST": 1. Relocate the rudder pedal links to the pedal end. 2. Terminate the rudder cable on top of the rudder arm and provide safety strap. 3. SS changed the design on the model IV sometime around the beginning of 1996 and, this concern was corrected. ******** #017 CONCERN: (MAJOR) FUEL VALVE; "O" RING DETERIORATION DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Engine failure due to "O" ring entering fuel line and causing fuel starvation "LIST": 1. Replace "O" rings with Viton material 2. Replace valve with Chrome ball and Teflon seat type construction; rated for gasoline. ******** #016 CONCERN: (MAJOR) RUDDER CABLE RUBBING ON RUDDER STOP DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Wearing of the rudder cable; possible breakage and loss of rudder control "LIST": 1. Rudder jamming "concern" above. This correction also raises the cable to clear the rudder stop. 2. SS changed design on the model IV sometime around the first of 1996 and, this concern was corrected. ******** #015 CONCERN: (MINOR) FUSING OF THE BUS "FILTER CAPACITOR" DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Shorted capacitor could result in "Bus" voltage being shorted to ground; Loss of 12VDC bus. "LIST": Add an inline fuse to the input of the filter capacitor. Will lose filter capability but maintain the Bus. ******** #014 CONCERN: (MINOR) LEAKING (POLY) HEADER TANKS DATE" 3-25-98 IMPACT: Fuel contamination in the Cockpit area. "LIST": 1. Apply small amount of heat to tank (poly) threads prior to sealing. 2. Use a good quality sealant ******** #013 CONCERN: (MAJOR/MINOR) THROTTLE CABLE "BALL" ENDS; BREAKING DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: (MAJ-582) Associated carburetor will fail "throttle shut"; engine failure. (MIN-912) Associated carburetor will fail full throttle causing rough engine. "LIST": Adjust throttle vernier so that positive stop of vernier hits "just" prior to carburetor cups reaching full travel. Allows the physical stop on the vernier to contact first and prevents stress to the cable "ball" ends at the carb cups. ******** #012 CONCERN: (MAJOR/MINOR) THROTTLE VERNIER CONNECTION TO THROTTLE CLUSTER; SLIPPING DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Loss of throttle control. (MAJ-582) (MIN -912). See comments on "THROTTLE CABLE "BALL" ENDS; BREAKING "LIST": 1. Provide a more positive means to attach the solid wire (center of vernier) to the throttle cluster. 2. Provide any extra "bug" nut sleeve assy between the throttle cluster and the end of the outer throttle covering. Be careful not to interfere with the idle or full throttle operation of the Vernier. Adjust the location to give you approximatly 75% power (582) if the original bug nut fails or slips. 3. SET SCREW ( OVAL POINT).. IS DESIGNED TO APPLY PRESSURE WITHOUT CUTTING.. THIS IS THE PREFERRED SET SCREW FOR USE ON SMALL WIRES AND CABLES (i.e. throttle and brake cables).. AS THERE IS NO CUTTING SURFACE, CHANCES OF DAMAGING THE CABLE OR WIRE ARE GREATLY REDUCED. 4. SET SCREW ( CUP POINT). IS DESIGNED FOR USE WHERE SET SCREW MUST BITE INTO MATING SURFACE..(i.e. a pulley of a steel shaft).. IF THIS TYPE OF SET SCREW IS USED ON A FLEXIBLE CABLE OR SMALL WIRE IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE. AS THIS SET SCREW CUTS INTO THE MATING SURFACE IT REDUCES THE STRENGTH OF THE CABLE/WIRE.. ON WIRES IT CAN CAUSE A "STRESS RISER" WHICH CAN LEAD TO A BREAK IN THE WIRE. 5. Try to use the "oval point" . If not available, drill the set screw hole slightly offset from the wire hole so the "Cup point" type won't cut into the wire. ******** #011 CONCERN: (MINOR) Fuel line and vents from wing tanks crimping DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Engine failure due to fuel starvation and loss of vent. "LIST": 1. Ensure sufficient slack in lines for folding wings but, ensure line is continually going down hill from the wing tank to the header. 2. Inspect carefully for lines "approaching" a crimp 3. Investigate the installation of 90 degree fittings where lines perform excessive bending; example, the vent line. ******* #010 CONCERN: (MINOR) Not choosing to rib Lace the Wings DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Separation of the fabric to the wing ribs during flight. "LIST": Skystar and Poly Fiber seem to differ on their opinions rib lacing. Skystar suggest rib lacing as an "Option". Poly Fiber considers rib lacing as "Essential". ******** #009 CONCERN: (MAJOR) TUBULAR MAIN LANDING GEAR WELDMENTS; CRACKING. DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Uncontrollable aircraft upon landing "LIST": 1. Inspect weldment frequently for cracking. 2. Replace gear with the solid spring aluminum gear. ******* #008 CONCERN: (MAJOR) (PRE-93) CRACKING FLYWHEELS ON OLDER 582's DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Engine destruction/failure "LIST": 1. Inspect flywheel at first opportunity for cracks radiating from the bolt holes. 2. Replace with new (heavier) flywheel. Rotax Bulletin??? refers. 3. Inspect at each annual. Engine removal and partial tear down preferred. Consider NDT (dye penetrate test) ******* #007 CONCERN: (MAJOR) ROTAX 912 ROCKER ARM SEIZURE DATE: 3-25-98 IMPACT: Loss of power in cylinders depending on No. of cylinders affected. possible damage to heads, valves, and pistons. "LIST": 1. remove and inspect rocker arms for evidence of scoring or seizure. 2. Replace with upgraded (Bronze Bushings) rocker arms and replacement shaft. 3. Inspect old arms every 200 hours and replace at 600 hours to maintain 1200 TBO ******* #006 CONCERN: (MINOR) BREAKING OF ROTAX EXHAUST SPRINGS DATE: 4-6-98 IMPACT: Loss of support for the exhaust system "LIST": 1. Inspect regularly and replace as necessary 2. Coat springs with high temp RTV 3. Look for a way to isolate the metal to metal contact???? ******* #005 CONCERN: (MAJOR) GASCOLATOR AND QUICK DRAIN "O" RINGS DATE: 4-8-98 IMPACT: Failed "O" rings can result in complete drainage of fuel supply and resultant loss of engine. "LIST": Inspect and/or replace all "O" rings in the gascolator and quick drain valves at each annual or more frequently as necessary. ******* #004 CONCERN: (MAJOR) ROTAX 912 CARB SOCKETS CRACKING DATE: 5-6-98 IMPACT: Rough running or failed engine "LIST": 1. Inspect the rubber carb sockets regularly for a secure fit and no cracking. 2. Consider replacing at regular intervals as necessary. ******* #003 CONCERN: (MAJOR) TAIL SPRING MOUNTING BRACKETS/BOLTS BREAKING DATE: 6-15-98 IMPACT: Loss of steering and tail control "LIST": 1. Inspect the fuselage tabs for cracks (especially after any hard landings). 2. Inspect the mounting bolts for signs of wear and replace if necessary. ******* #002 CONCERN: (MINOR) CLEVELAND BRAKE CYLINDERS SEPARATING DATE: 7-27-98 IMPACT: An aircraft (not Kitfox) had a Cleveland brake cylinder separate due to the "C" keeper ring coming loose. The separation resulted in the upper part of the cylinder rotating foreword and jamming against the firewall. This jamming locked up the rudder. The pilot received fatal injury. "LIST": (1) Place a safety cable from the bottom of the cylinder bolt hole to the top bolt hole. Adjust for no slack with cylinder in neutral position. The cable will prevent cylinder separation if keeper ring fails. The cable will "bow" away when brake pedal is pushed. ******* #001 CONCERN: (MAJOR) FRAYED AND BROKEN RUDDER CABLE (DURING LANDING) DATE: 8-26-98 IMPACT: Loss of rudder control and ability to apply brake "LIST": 1. If a rudder cable were to break, the opposite rudder spring will cause the pedal to be pulled hard against the firewall. This applies "unwanted" rudder and prevents the use of the toe brake. 2. Inspect cables frequently, especially around the pulley and guide tubes. 3. Never use MEK or such, to clean cables. It removes the internal lubrication. Lubricate cables around pulleys and guide tubes with graphite grease. 4. Provide a "stop" to prevent pedal from going hard against the firewall if a cable breaks. This will allow continued operation of the toe brakes to overcome "unwanted" rudder while on the ground. 5. Consider cable replacement as a periodic maintenance item. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:56 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N914C Ron You all are in my thoughts and prayers . Im sorry for your loss of a friend . JP ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:49 PM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Tim and Kitfox list Don posted from 1 to 39 and here are the rest of the items up to item #47. The first part is an index of the items as they pertain to various parts of the aircraft. Regards --- Ted K I T F O X S A F E # DATE ITEM COMMENTS *** ********* INDEX: HULL: #47 #46, #40, #39, #34, #31, #29, #28, #21, #19, #18, #16, #13, #12, #9, #3, #1 582: #45, #43, #38, #37, #33, #32, #8, 912: #27, #25, #24, #20, #7, #4 FUEL: #44, #36, #30, #26, #23, #22, #17, #14, #11, #5 PROP: #35, ELECTRICAL: #15 GENERAL: #42, #41, #10, #6, #2 #47 06/15/02 RUDDER PEDAL TORQUE TUBES BREAKING This is an addition to Item #19 where applicability is extended "ALL" model Kitfox. #46 06/18/02 (MAJOR) LOOSE RIVETS ON FLAPERON HORN ASSY. The rivets holding the flapperon horn to the flapperons has been discovers worn and loose on several aircraft. 1. Replace the rivets with "solid core" type 2. Apply 3M or equivalent adhesive during the installation. #45 (MAJOR) MISSING "SIEVE SLEEVES" IN BING CARBS (582 ONLY) Failure to install the "sieve sleeves" in the carb bowls will result in a very "lean" fuel mixture at high RPM's and may result in engine seizure. 1. Ensure sleeves are in good condition 2. Ensure the sleeves are in place on the tower each time you complete the jetting process or perform any carb maintenance. 3. The sleeves are not filters but, are for breaking up foam/bubbles in the gasoline formed by vibration. #44 (MINOR) MISSING OR LEAKING FUEL CAPS Can result in loss of fuel, uneven or, catastrophic flow of fuel. Unusual amount of fuel loss. Transfer of fuel from one tank to the other and over flowing. 1. Replace fuel cap gaskets with Mercedes-Benz part #140-471-00-79. 2. Ensure caps are installed correctly at each pre-flight. 3. Ensure the cap internal spring tabs are not bent or sprung to prevent a tight fit. 4. Not related to fuel loss but, Icing will clog the cap vent rather quickly and could reduce or prevent fuel flow from the tanks. #43 01/04/01 (MINOR) ROTAX 582LC OVERHEATING Engines have experienced overheating due to radiator size and location. A couple cases of thermostat failures have been reported. Engine overheat can result in engine seizure. 1. The original 582 radiator may be undersized for some climates and fail to provide adequate cooling. 2. Lowering the smaller radiator approximately 1" putting it more in the airstream, have been reported to improve cooling. 3. Going to the Rotax 618 radiator (larger) has improved cooling. 4. There has been at least, one report were the thermostat body had "broken" causing the thermostat to fail in the shut position. Suggest periodic inspections for metal stress to the thermostat body and possible replacement each conditional. #42 01/03/01 (MINOR) INACCURACIES OF ENGINE TACHOMETERS Faulty reading engine tachometers can result in premature engine wear or engine failure. 1. Tachometer accuracy can be affected by temperature, dirt, wear, electrical Interference, etc. 2. Check accuracy of tachometer at initial installation and periodically thereafter to determine reliability. 3. Verify prop speed with an optical tach. 4. One such problem reported in the Aviasport electronic tachometer for Rotax engine type 912, due to temperature variation. #41 04/17/00 (MINOR) PROTECTION OF OPEN FUEL, WATER, ETC. LINES DURING CONSTRUCTION During the construction phase of building, bugs, Spiders, and other insects/animals may build nest or Leave residue in open fuel, water, or other lines laying around with the ends unprotected. This applies to openings in radiators, engines, instruments and anyplace a small creature could take up residence. 1. Insure all lines, instrument openings, radiators, engine ports are taped or bagged during the building phase and even after installation on the aircraft. 2. Prior to final hook up, ensure lines are clear of any debris by blowing out with an air compressor or some other acceptable means. #40 12/21/99 (MINOR) ELEVATOR HINGE PINS FALLING OUT Some elevator hinge pins have "smaller" heads that will fit through the elev/stab weldments. In these cases, the hinge pins would require a "washer" on BOTH ends. Most are a tight fit and should not come out but, in case of wear, the pins "could" work out and. 1. Cut down the weldment width a little until the existing pins will be long enough to install a washer on both ends. OR, 2. Order new pins with a longer length that will take two washers. Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Ted Could you post a list or a file of all the KitfoxSafe items. I'd like to have a look at all of them. I haven't been on the list that long and have never seen the list. Thanks, Tim Vader Calgary ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:24 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Failure Point Thanks Ted and Don. This list is invaluable as it appears to be more complete and more conservative than Skystar's SL list. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 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