Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:15 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Fox5flyer)
2. 04:27 AM - Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer)
3. 05:25 AM - Fw: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer)
4. 08:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Lynn Matteson)
5. 09:04 AM - Oil Filter Thoughts (Nick Scholtes)
6. 09:32 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Margaret Hastedt)
7. 10:13 AM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (Fox5flyer)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (PWilson)
9. 10:17 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (kitfoxmike)
10. 10:28 AM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (kitfoxmike)
11. 11:22 AM - Re: Search for oil leak (kitfoxmike)
12. 11:32 AM - Engine Preheater (Magdic, Steve)
13. 12:26 PM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (crazyivan)
14. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Upgrades (dave)
15. 12:55 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer)
16. 01:18 PM - Spark Plug Gap (Frank Miles)
17. 01:39 PM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (Lowell Fitt)
18. 01:50 PM - Spark Plug Gap (Frank Miles)
19. 02:05 PM - Re: Spark Plug Gap (dave)
20. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Fox5flyer)
21. 03:57 PM - KitFox Model II (Glenn Horne)
22. 04:06 PM - Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (FlyboyTR)
23. 04:22 PM - Don leaving ?????? (Rex Shaw)
24. 04:27 PM - Re incident (Rex Shaw)
25. 04:40 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (PWilson)
26. 05:01 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Lowell Fitt)
27. 06:27 PM - Re: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (Randy Daughenbaugh)
28. 06:27 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer)
29. 07:39 PM - Re: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (Guy Buchanan)
30. 09:14 PM - 0-235 vs Turbo Subaru (Jim Corner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one
question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every one
of them adds weight. I can't speak personally for the under seat bins, but
my recollection is that they're a PITA just to get to.
>From one who added too many unnecessary things.
Deke
>
> To the "experts" on this list (self-proclaimed or otherwise) I am planning
on doing some upgrades to my Speedster. I want to get your take on them,
especially if you have first-hand knowledge, and tell me (us all) if they
are worth the money/work.
>
> -Solid Lexan turtledeck. The original one leaks.
> -KingFox tundra tires.
> -8" Pneumatic Matco tailwheel (instead of the rubber puck)
> -Oil thermostat for the 914UL. I have aluminum tape on it now for the
winter but the temp decreases considerably when I'm in a power-off descent.
> -A cargo pod or those under-the-seat storage bins that Kitfox has on their
website. Which one do you like better?
>
> Whaddya think?
>
> --------
> Dave
> Speedster 912 UL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79193#79193
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Oil Filters for 912UL |
It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter.
It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the
filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others and
it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax filter
and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the
internals. I'd bet there is a difference.
Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of
a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may need
replacing if it isn't sealing properly.
Deke
John
Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and
puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes
needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest
filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant.
Please keep me informed.
Thank you.
Jimmie
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN May
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I
am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp"
I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct? Do you
mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my
guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn
the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying
to make sure the system is filled before I start it up. John May
from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN )
...snip...
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fw: Oil Filters for 912UL |
The below link has an enormous amount of information on oil filters that
should enable one to make informed decisions regarding oil filter
choices rather than anecdotal.
Deke
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Fox5flyer
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Oil Filters for 912UL
It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter.
It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the
filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others and
it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax filter
and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the
internals. I'd bet there is a difference.
Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of
a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may need
replacing if it isn't sealing properly.
Deke
John
Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and
puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes
needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest
filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant.
Please keep me informed.
Thank you.
Jimmie
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN May
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I
am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp"
I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct? Do you
mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my
guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn
the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying
to make sure the system is filled before I start it up. John May
from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN )
...snip...
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
I added one "under-seat" bin, on the passenger side, and it works
ok....PITA to install, but not too bad to use. The seat must be empty
of course, but after that it's just a matter of (in my plane, that is)
lifting the seat cushion/upholstery and lifting the hinged lid. I keep
my fuel sump drain device, a funnel, a few tools, a rag, windshield
cleaner, and a quart of oil if I'm heading far away...a "flat" quart
that is...a "round" quart won't fit. There is a little room left, but
not much, because it's a tapered compartment.
Lynn
On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 07:14 AM, Fox5flyer wrote:
>
> All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one
> question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every
> one
> of them adds weight. I can't speak personally for the under seat
> bins, but
> my recollection is that they're a PITA just to get to.
>> From one who added too many unnecessary things.
> Deke
>
>>
>> To the "experts" on this list (self-proclaimed or otherwise) I am
>> planning
> on doing some upgrades to my Speedster. I want to get your take on
> them,
> especially if you have first-hand knowledge, and tell me (us all) if
> they
> are worth the money/work.
>>
>> -Solid Lexan turtledeck. The original one leaks.
>> -KingFox tundra tires.
>> -8" Pneumatic Matco tailwheel (instead of the rubber puck)
>> -Oil thermostat for the 914UL. I have aluminum tape on it now for the
> winter but the temp decreases considerably when I'm in a power-off
> descent.
>> -A cargo pod or those under-the-seat storage bins that Kitfox has on
>> their
> website. Which one do you like better?
>>
>> Whaddya think?
>>
>> --------
>> Dave
>> Speedster 912 UL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79193#79193
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Oil Filter Thoughts |
Randy and Jimmie,
I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help jumpi
ng in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm kinda' sp
eculating here, but here goes:
I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different pre
ssure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally unrelat
ed. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve value" o
f the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax filter,
but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate their fi
lter and justify their price.
An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only com
es into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure acro
ss the filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the engi
ne may be damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the filter
). The filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the "filter" p
art, and simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again, this only
happens in a non-normal situation, and will only be brought on by the fil
ter producing enough resistance to the oil flow that the pressure across
the filter builds high enough to pop the bypass valve. And I emphasize t
hat the pressure across the filter is what matters, just because a motor
has a high pressure oil pump doesn't mean that the bypass valve should be
bypassing, even with a high pressure oil pump the filter should still be
able to flow enough volume of oil to keep the pressure drop across the f
ilter to a minimum.
In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the eng
ine is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming int
o play, and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat irr
elevant, as long as it goes into bypass before there's a catastrophic f
ailure, that's all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax, who is to say th
at one picked a better pressure bypass number than the other? I want a b
ypass value high enough that it NEVER goes into bypass in normal operatio
n.
Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate an
oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in microns),
the quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and the bypass p
ressure value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in my opinion.
The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of c
ompression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the CarQ
uest.
After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter work
s", and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk about the
bypass valve, and also a different type of filtering technique called "b
ypass filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages that talk a
bout differences in fineness, and also differences in quality. Interesti
ng reading on this topic.
Nick
Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes
through the filter or not? The number of
compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and
nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ???????
I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure
relief valves. It is not easy to come by!
Randy
=2E
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
I also bought the under-seat bin, but opted to cut out the front of it instead.
I installed a fabric front panel with elastic at the top so that I can just
reach in, but it keeps stuff from coming out accidentally. I wanted to be able
to access it in flight even with a passenger present. You're right, not much
space, but it's good for maps and fuel strainers and stuff like that. The "big
stuff" goes in the baggage sack. For that I made a lightweight stiffening
frame out of 3/8" aluminum tubing with some thin plastic pop-riveted to it as
a floor. Didn't want anything rubbing on the controls. In hindsight, I would
just install the baggage sack.
My $.02,
Margaret H.
Classic IV N3076U
College Station, TX
>>> lynnmatt@jps.net 12/5/2006 10:39:26 AM >>>
I added one "under-seat" bin, on the passenger side, and it works
ok....PITA to install, but not too bad to use. The seat must be empty
of course, but after that it's just a matter of (in my plane, that is)
lifting the seat cushion/upholstery and lifting the hinged lid. I keep
my fuel sump drain device, a funnel, a few tools, a rag, windshield
cleaner, and a quart of oil if I'm heading far away...a "flat" quart
that is...a "round" quart won't fit. There is a little room left, but
not much, because it's a tapered compartment.
Lynn
On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 07:14 AM, Fox5flyer wrote:
>
> All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one
> question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every
> one <snip>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filter Thoughts |
Nick, that's good information and I agree that the bypass spring is most
likely not the problem. However, I believe the filter's anti-drain back
membrane (check valve) can be a possible cause. An ineffective check
valve will let too much, or even all, of the oil to drain back into the
crankcase which would take a lot of flips of the prop to create enough
pressure to push oil past the filter and into the reservoir to the point
that it "burps", which, as I see it, is nothing more than the air in the
line being evacuated.
I might be totally wrong on this, but it makes sense to me.
A hundred or more prop pulls would wear a guy out!
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Scholtes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts
Randy and Jimmie,
I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help
jumping in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm
kinda' speculating here, but here goes:
I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different
pressure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally
unrelated. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve
value" of the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax
filter, but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate
their filter and justify their price.
An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only
comes into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure
across the filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the
engine may be damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the
filter). The filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the
"filter" part, and simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again,
this only happens in a non-normal situation, and will only be brought on
by the filter producing enough resistance to the oil flow that the
pressure across the filter builds high enough to pop the bypass valve.
And I emphasize that the pressure across the filter is what matters,
just because a motor has a high pressure oil pump doesn't mean that the
bypass valve should be bypassing, even with a high pressure oil pump the
filter should still be able to flow enough volume of oil to keep the
pressure drop across the filter to a minimum.
In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the
engine is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming
into play, and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat
irrelevant, as long as it goes into bypass before there's a
catastrophic failure, that's all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax,
who is to say that one picked a better pressure bypass number than the
other? I want a bypass value high enough that it NEVER goes into bypass
in normal operation.
Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate
an oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in
microns), the quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and
the bypass pressure value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in
my opinion.
The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of
compression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the
CarQuest.
After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter
works", and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk
about the bypass valve, and also a different type of filtering technique
called "bypass filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages
that talk about differences in fineness, and also differences in
quality. Interesting reading on this topic.
Nick
Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes
through the filter or not? The number of
compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and
nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ???????
I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure
relief valves. It is not easy to come by!
Randy
.
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filters for 912UL |
Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web
to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use a
coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If one
is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. I
forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have
settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was
Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and the
cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical comparison study:
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html
Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more
links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a
bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story.
Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I
don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only restriction
in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That is the
reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when light oil is used.
Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve?
Regards, Paul
==================
At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the
>filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the
>engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more
>effective than others and it may even vary from filter to
>filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.)
>just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is
>a difference.
>Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some
>sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That
>may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly.
>Deke
>
>John
>
>Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and
>puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes
>needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest
>filters. I think we are close to discovering something
>significant. Please keep me informed.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Jimmie
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:jpm7940@sbcglobal.net>JOHN May
>To: <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
>Jimmie,
>I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I
>am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by
>"burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this
>correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to
>check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter
>also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I
>change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled
>before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model
>IV-1200 912 UL N48PN )
>...snip...
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
I for one would like to go to the plexy rear, but, haven't done it yet.
The oil thermostate, I installed one and feel that is the best thing I've put on
the engine, period. Even works great in the summer time, I start the engine,
and before I get to the runway it's ready to go, about 5 minutes. In the winter
time, I'm talking currently 25 degrees, it takes about 15 minutes, maybe
a little sooner. But I'm assured that the engine is running at around 180-220
all the time, no matter what time of year, no more putting tape on the cooler
in the winter and quick warm ups, I love it. I also have the 912ul
The under seat, I want to but haven't done that one either, I like the fact that
items I don't use, but need, can be put in an area that ain't gonna affect weight
and balance, just gross weight.
--------
kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79341#79341
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filter Thoughts |
Jees,
What a mess that has brought up. I use the Carquest filter. I for one don't turn
the prop over and wait to here that gurgle, or what ever. I did when I first
got the airplane. What I do is this. I do my inspection of the airplane,
I get to the prop and inspect that, look inside the front engine area. I turn
the prop about 4 compression strokes, to make sure it isn't compression locked.
Then I get in the airplane turn on the master only, keep the mags OFF, and
turn the engine over with choke for about a count of 4 in the summer and 12 in
the winter, while watching the oil guage to make sure I have normal pressure.
Then I stop turning over the engine and turn on the mags, engine fires right
up and pressure comes right up. Never had an issue, I put in over 200 hours
this year and about that last year. I don't intend to change this, I also cut
open the filters after an oil change and there is nothing in there. One last
note: the filter isn't the real issue why the oil goes into the engine, it's
the possision of the oil tank, sure the filter will cause it to flow into the
engine faster, possibly, but the oil tank higher than the engine is what really
does it.
--------
kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79347#79347
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Search for oil leak |
No. one place for a leak on these is the vent, leaks out here only when flying.
No. 2 is a place where you spilled some oil from a previous oil change.
--------
kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79362#79362
Message 12
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| Subject: | Engine Preheater |
For What It's Worth:
Just purchased a ZODI 24 volt heater for $99 + $5 shipping on sale at
Costco.com.
I figured it's worth a try and looks very portable. I'll let everyone
know if it fits in the pod.
Thanks for the "heads up" Deke Mikado.
Steve Magdic
CCCCCCCCCCColdddddddd WWWisconsinnnn...........
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
Thanks for the responses so far.
FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad.
- So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat things.
Use it only for long trips.
- As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my original deck
leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the rain.
- I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter than the
solid rubber puck that's on there now.
- Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing on rough
strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires.
- Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will keep my
flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents.
--------
Dave
Speedster 912 UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79387#79387
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
Just so that you know , Matco has a 6 inch pneumatic now too.......... and
it an turned 6061 wheel not cast. I think the 8 inch is cast.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "crazyivan" <dmivezic@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades
>
> Thanks for the responses so far.
>
> FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad.
>
> - So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat
> things. Use it only for long trips.
> - As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my
> original deck leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the
> rain.
> - I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter
> than the solid rubber puck that's on there now.
> - Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing
> on rough strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires.
> - Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will
> keep my flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents.
>
> --------
> Dave
> Speedster 912 UL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79387#79387
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filters for 912UL |
If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are both Wix products
manufactured by Dana. I also use the Napa Gold on my Soob and replace
it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure it's cheap
insurance.
The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump system to the 912, but with a
check valve in the line going to the sump to prevent drain back.
Between that and the filter anti drain back valve, the system is always
ready. If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been to reduce
parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard of any of
them going bad though.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: PWilson
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web to
compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use a coil
spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If one is not
sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. I forget all
the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have settled on NAPA
Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was Wix. These two had
the largest surface area and the best seal and the cost was not
unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical comparison study:
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilter
s.html
Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more links.
The mopar link you referred to is a better link
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a bunch
of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story.
Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I
don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only restriction in
the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That is the reason some
guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when light oil is used.
Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve?
Regards, Paul
==================
At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the
filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so
the filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others
and it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax
filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the
internals. I'd bet there is a difference.
Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some
sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may
need replacing if it isn't sealing properly.
Deke
John
Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and
puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes
needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest
filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant.
Please keep me informed.
Thank you.
Jimmie
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN May
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time
I am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by
"burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct?
Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out
but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time
I turn the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am
trying to make sure the system is filled before I start it up.
John May from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN )
...snip...
Message 16
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Can anyone tell me the proper spark plug for a Rotax 582?
Frank
--
4:07 PM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filter Thoughts |
I also agree with Nicks thoughts. The bypass comes in to play, in my
estimation with an abused system - inadequate oil changes.
I have thought a lot about the tendency of the oil draining into the crank
case from the tank and possible solutions. I have to "burp" mine before
flight as well and in the past, it took fewer compression strokes after an
oil change, then progressively more as the hours mounted.
The geometry of the system is as mike states. The oil tank being higher
than the Rotax recommended position will siphon the oil in the tank back to
the crankcase. This actually sould be stated as "forward" into the crank
case as the return line is higher than the oil level in the tank and any
movement of oil from the tank to the crank case is in a forward direction
through the pick-up line - tank, pick-up tube, oil cooler, oil pump, oil
filter oil journals and crank case. Neither the bypass valve nor the
anti-drainback valve are involved with the movement of the oil because there
is very little pressure and the oil is moving from the tank to the engine in
the normal direction.
Since the oil is purged from the crank case by blowby gasses, I always
thought the relative fit of the rings and valves would determine the bypass
pressure and be the predominant factor in the number of compression strokes
needed to fill the oil tank, i.e., a good tight engine - low bypass gasses
and lots of strokes, a tired worn engine (or a new engine) with lots of
bypass - few strokes. I think other factors involved are oil temperatures -
thickness of the oil and the duration between flights. My guess is that
most of the flow from the tank occurs immediately after shutdown when the
oil is warm and relatively thinner. I have burped several days before a
flight and the oil remained fairly high on the dipstick at flight time.
Much of this is opinion and I am interested in other's thoughts.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts
Nick, that's good information and I agree that the bypass spring is most
likely not the problem. However, I believe the filter's anti-drain back
membrane (check valve) can be a possible cause. An ineffective check valve
will let too much, or even all, of the oil to drain back into the crankcase
which would take a lot of flips of the prop to create enough pressure to
push oil past the filter and into the reservoir to the point that it
"burps", which, as I see it, is nothing more than the air in the line being
evacuated.
I might be totally wrong on this, but it makes sense to me.
A hundred or more prop pulls would wear a guy out!
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Scholtes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts
Randy and Jimmie,
I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help jumping
in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm kinda'
speculating here, but here goes:
I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different
pressure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally
unrelated. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve
value" of the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax
filter, but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate
their filter and justify their price.
An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only comes
into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure across the
filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the engine may be
damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the filter). The
filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the "filter" part, and
simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again, this only happens in a
non-normal situation, and will only be brought on by the filter producing
enough resistance to the oil flow that the pressure across the filter builds
high enough to pop the bypass valve. And I emphasize that the pressure
across the filter is what matters, just because a motor has a high pressure
oil pump doesn't mean that the bypass valve should be bypassing, even with a
high pressure oil pump the filter should still be able to flow enough volume
of oil to keep the pressure drop across the filter to a minimum.
In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the engine
is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming into play,
and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat irrelevant, as
long as it goes into bypass before there's a catastrophic failure, that's
all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax, who is to say that one picked a
better pressure bypass number than the other? I want a bypass value high
enough that it NEVER goes into bypass in normal operation.
Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate an
oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in microns), the
quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and the bypass pressure
value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in my opinion.
The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of
compression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the
CarQuest.
After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter works",
and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk about the bypass
valve, and also a different type of filtering technique called "bypass
filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages that talk about
differences in fineness, and also differences in quality. Interesting
reading on this topic.
Nick
Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
Jimmie,
What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes
through the filter or not? The number of
compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and
nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ???????
I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure
relief valves. It is not easy to come by!
Randy
.
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
Message 18
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Sorry, left out the =93gap=94 part . . . . .
Frank
--
12/5/2006
4:07 PM
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| Subject: | Re: Spark Plug Gap |
Frank,
I have BR8ES in my 582 solid tips ( not screw tips) I gap at .018
- I am over due for plugs now with near 95 hours on these since July .
I am trying for 100 hours to prove it works :) I think rotax specs
are 016 to 020 . And yes those Alum screw tips can come loose , not
just the screwed on tip but the tip will wear from rubbing on the steel
clip inside the plug cap and will cause a flat spot and they do not hold
on then.
Hope this helps ,
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Miles
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Gap
Can anyone tell me the proper spark plug for a Rotax 582?
Frank
--
12/5/2006 4:07 PM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Upgrades |
About the only thing I can take issue with is the Maule tailwheel. The hard
rubber type is a 6" unit and I think it's about a pound lighter than the
pneumatic type which is an 8" inch unit. Have you considered the Home
Builders Special? Very light and soft rubber for a better ride. Might even
be lighter than the Maule 6 inch.
I can't argue with the thermostat. Quick warmups and not having to screw
around with covers for the radiator/oil cooler is a good thing.
Deke
>
> Thanks for the responses so far.
>
> FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad.
>
> - So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat
things. Use it only for long trips.
> - As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my
original deck leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the rain.
> - I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter
than the solid rubber puck that's on there now.
> - Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing
on rough strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires.
> - Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will
keep my flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents.
>
> --------
> Dave
> Speedster 912 UL
Message 21
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I have put my KitFox up for sale. I have
put it on Barnstormers and also on EBay.
The Item Number on EBay is 280057173786
Anyone looking for a nice model II check it out.
Glenn Horne Model II
Suffolk, Virginia.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation |
I have been having on-going issues with my Vixen. The engine is currently off awaiting parts for the Continental IO-240 starter. This is the link to that problem if you're interested. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=19174
Yesterday I noticed fuel dripping off the side of the plane. According to the
fuel gauges I had lost around 14 gallons! It was dripping out of the wing, running
into the aileron...dripping out of the aileron and down the side of the
fuselage. Turned the fuel valves off and siphoned the tank. Today we folded
the right wing to access the fuel fittings. There was nothing obvious until I
realized the sight gauge fitting at the bottom was loose...it would move in and
out about 1/8". This is the semi rigid gauge. Removed, inspected and determined
it had to be the culprit...just loose! Reinstalled and everything is dry.
I will check the other side tomorrow!
Before re-installing the sight gauge I cut a length of red spray spout tubing (the
little hose that comes on a can of WD-40, etc) and inserted it into the sight
gauge. I had read about this in an old post but there was no mention of how
well it worked. As I was adding fuel (checking for the leak) my wife was the
first to notice the difference in ease of reading the sight gauge. I was quite
impressed when I looked at it...much easier to see and identify the fuel
level.
Now, to my needs... :) I want to replace the clear fuel line that runs from the
header tank (behind the seat) to the top of the right fuel tank. In years
past I have used vinyl fuel line but always had easy access for inspection purposes.
I would like to know what is now (since I've been away from flying for
some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for this type of application?
ID is 1/4". As always, any and all help/input will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79440#79440
Message 23
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| Subject: | Don leaving ?????? |
Thanks but, I may not be leaving the ranks. No one seems to be knocking
my door down to buy my Fox.
Well Don I hate to say this but maybe this is in our favour. Are you
sure you want to sell your Kitfox especially at that price ??????
Seriously if you really do want to sell it I wish you luck.
Rex.
Message 24
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Now a search and recovery. Witnesses reported a straight in about 300
yards
offshore. I flew the coast more than an hour today and saw only sea
lions
and bubbles from the divers. Sonar arrives tommorow. Ron NB Ore
Ron I also offer my condolences. I hope you are able to come to terms
with this sooner than later.
Kind Regards, Rex.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filters for 912UL |
Thanks
Paul
=================
At 12:55 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are both Wix products
>manufactured by Dana. I also use the Napa Gold on my Soob and
>replace it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure
>it's cheap insurance.
>The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump system to the 912, but with
>a check valve in the line going to the sump to prevent drain
>back. Between that and the filter anti drain back valve, the system
>is always ready. If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been
>to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard
>of any of them going bad though.
>Deke
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:pwmac@sisna.com>PWilson
>To: <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:45 PM
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
>
>Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web
>to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use
>a coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If
>one is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality.
>I forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have
>settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was
>Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and
>the cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical
>comparison study:
>http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html
>Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more
>links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link
>http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a
>bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story.
>
>Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I
>don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only
>restriction in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That
>is the reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when
>light oil is used.
>Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve?
>Regards, Paul
>==================
>At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>>It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the
>>filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the
>>engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more
>>effective than others and it may even vary from filter to
>>filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.)
>>just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is
>>a difference.
>>Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some
>>sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That
>>may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly.
>>Deke
>>
>>John
>>Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and
>>puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression
>>stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and
>>Carquest filters. I think we are close to discovering something
>>significant. Please keep me informed.
>>Thank you.
>>Jimmie
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:jpm7940@sbcglobal.net>JOHN May
>>To: <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL
>>Jimmie,
>>I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I
>>am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by
>>"burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this
>>correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have
>>to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my
>>filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is
>>after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is
>>filled before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model
>>IV-1200 912 UL N48PN )
>>...snip...
>
>
>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>
>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>
>href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
>
>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filters for 912UL |
If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been
to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard
of any of them going bad though.
Deke
This is the quandry. How do you install a check valve that will prevent oil
movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will
(without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up. Remember the
oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return line
which is above the tank oil level is not a player.
Lowell
Message 27
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| Subject: | Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation |
Travis,
I went with tygon. 2.5 years and very happy thus far. I tried to find
records but.. it was an ultralight supply web site. Google it. I do like
being able to see the fuel in the line.
Others have been happy with the blue stuff from Aircraft Spruce.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FlyboyTR
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 5:06 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line
Recommendation
I have been having on-going issues with my Vixen. The engine is currently
off awaiting parts for the Continental IO-240 starter. This is the link to
that problem if you're interested.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=19174
Yesterday I noticed fuel dripping off the side of the plane. According to
the fuel gauges I had lost around 14 gallons! It was dripping out of the
wing, running into the aileron...dripping out of the aileron and down the
side of the fuselage. Turned the fuel valves off and siphoned the tank.
Today we folded the right wing to access the fuel fittings. There was
nothing obvious until I realized the sight gauge fitting at the bottom was
loose...it would move in and out about 1/8". This is the semi rigid gauge.
Removed, inspected and determined it had to be the culprit...just loose!
Reinstalled and everything is dry. I will check the other side tomorrow!
Before re-installing the sight gauge I cut a length of red spray spout
tubing (the little hose that comes on a can of WD-40, etc) and inserted it
into the sight gauge. I had read about this in an old post but there was no
mention of how well it worked. As I was adding fuel (checking for the leak)
my wife was the first to notice the difference in ease of reading the sight
gauge. I was quite impressed when I looked at it...much easier to see and
identify the fuel level.
Now, to my needs... :) I want to replace the clear fuel line that runs
from the header tank (behind the seat) to the top of the right fuel tank.
In years past I have used vinyl fuel line but always had easy access for
inspection purposes. I would like to know what is now (since I've been away
from flying for some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for
this type of application? ID is 1/4". As always, any and all help/input
will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79440#79440
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Filters for 912UL |
Good question Lowell. It shows you're thinking! I was speaking of the
return line to the firewall sump as on my NSI engine. My return line is
large, about 3/4" ID and the check valve is low on the line near the
crankcase. The valve inhibits any back flow to the crankcase. At first I
assumed that the 912 had a similar plumbing arrangement, but obviously
that's not necessarily true, or maybe it is, but sans the check valve,
thereby allowing the line to drain back.
Deke
>
> If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been
> to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard
> of any of them going bad though.
> Deke
>
> This is the quandry. How do you install a check valve that will prevent
oil
> movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will
> (without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up. Remember the
> oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return
line
> which is above the tank oil level is not a player.
>
> Lowell
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation |
At 04:06 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>I would like to know what is now (since I've been away from flying for
>some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for this type of
>application?
I like the Bing Blue out of ACS. (Bing Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line.) It got
rave reviews on past web searches and is pre-discolored for 100LL. ;-)
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 30
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| Subject: | 0-235 vs Turbo Subaru |
This is maybe a problem that most of you wish you had..... and to
many the answer might be very obvious.
I have 1 each of the above two engines, one I purchased and the other
I received on a debt owing. For this question assume that installed
cost is about the same.
Installed weights are about the same...... and one of these engines
is going into a Kitfox Model 5, I just can't seem to make a final
decision and stick with it.
The Sube has more power 150+ vs 115 for the Lyc
The Lyc has a longer proven history of reliability, and perhaps a
little easier to install and maintain.
The S5 Kitfox will be equipped for night flying, i don't expect any
hard IFR, floats may come later.
One week I am convinced that I will install the Sube, next the Lyc.
Have to make up my mind very soon, pre-cover inspection coming right up.
Which one should I install? Comments appreciated.
Jim
PS: I currently fly a Model 2, 582 s/n 575 just over 1100 hrs.
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