---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/05/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:15 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Fox5flyer) 2. 04:27 AM - Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer) 3. 05:25 AM - Fw: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer) 4. 08:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Lynn Matteson) 5. 09:04 AM - Oil Filter Thoughts (Nick Scholtes) 6. 09:32 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Margaret Hastedt) 7. 10:13 AM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (Fox5flyer) 8. 10:16 AM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (PWilson) 9. 10:17 AM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (kitfoxmike) 10. 10:28 AM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (kitfoxmike) 11. 11:22 AM - Re: Search for oil leak (kitfoxmike) 12. 11:32 AM - Engine Preheater (Magdic, Steve) 13. 12:26 PM - Re: Kitfox Upgrades (crazyivan) 14. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Upgrades (dave) 15. 12:55 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer) 16. 01:18 PM - Spark Plug Gap (Frank Miles) 17. 01:39 PM - Re: Oil Filter Thoughts (Lowell Fitt) 18. 01:50 PM - Spark Plug Gap (Frank Miles) 19. 02:05 PM - Re: Spark Plug Gap (dave) 20. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Upgrades (Fox5flyer) 21. 03:57 PM - KitFox Model II (Glenn Horne) 22. 04:06 PM - Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (FlyboyTR) 23. 04:22 PM - Don leaving ?????? (Rex Shaw) 24. 04:27 PM - Re incident (Rex Shaw) 25. 04:40 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (PWilson) 26. 05:01 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Lowell Fitt) 27. 06:27 PM - Re: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (Randy Daughenbaugh) 28. 06:27 PM - Re: Oil Filters for 912UL (Fox5flyer) 29. 07:39 PM - Re: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation (Guy Buchanan) 30. 09:14 PM - 0-235 vs Turbo Subaru (Jim Corner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:59 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Upgrades All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every one of them adds weight. I can't speak personally for the under seat bins, but my recollection is that they're a PITA just to get to. >From one who added too many unnecessary things. Deke > > To the "experts" on this list (self-proclaimed or otherwise) I am planning on doing some upgrades to my Speedster. I want to get your take on them, especially if you have first-hand knowledge, and tell me (us all) if they are worth the money/work. > > -Solid Lexan turtledeck. The original one leaks. > -KingFox tundra tires. > -8" Pneumatic Matco tailwheel (instead of the rubber puck) > -Oil thermostat for the 914UL. I have aluminum tape on it now for the winter but the temp decreases considerably when I'm in a power-off descent. > -A cargo pod or those under-the-seat storage bins that Kitfox has on their website. Which one do you like better? > > Whaddya think? > > -------- > Dave > Speedster 912 UL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79193#79193 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:35 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others and it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is a difference. Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly. Deke John Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant. Please keep me informed. Thank you. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN May To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN ) ...snip... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:05 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: Oil Filters for 912UL The below link has an enormous amount of information on oil filters that should enable one to make informed decisions regarding oil filter choices rather than anecdotal. Deke http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Fox5flyer Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: Oil Filters for 912UL It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others and it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is a difference. Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly. Deke John Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant. Please keep me informed. Thank you. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN May To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN ) ...snip... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Upgrades From: Lynn Matteson I added one "under-seat" bin, on the passenger side, and it works ok....PITA to install, but not too bad to use. The seat must be empty of course, but after that it's just a matter of (in my plane, that is) lifting the seat cushion/upholstery and lifting the hinged lid. I keep my fuel sump drain device, a funnel, a few tools, a rag, windshield cleaner, and a quart of oil if I'm heading far away...a "flat" quart that is...a "round" quart won't fit. There is a little room left, but not much, because it's a tapered compartment. Lynn On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 07:14 AM, Fox5flyer wrote: > > All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one > question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every > one > of them adds weight. I can't speak personally for the under seat > bins, but > my recollection is that they're a PITA just to get to. >> From one who added too many unnecessary things. > Deke > >> >> To the "experts" on this list (self-proclaimed or otherwise) I am >> planning > on doing some upgrades to my Speedster. I want to get your take on > them, > especially if you have first-hand knowledge, and tell me (us all) if > they > are worth the money/work. >> >> -Solid Lexan turtledeck. The original one leaks. >> -KingFox tundra tires. >> -8" Pneumatic Matco tailwheel (instead of the rubber puck) >> -Oil thermostat for the 914UL. I have aluminum tape on it now for the > winter but the temp decreases considerably when I'm in a power-off > descent. >> -A cargo pod or those under-the-seat storage bins that Kitfox has on >> their > website. Which one do you like better? >> >> Whaddya think? >> >> -------- >> Dave >> Speedster 912 UL >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79193#79193 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:28 AM PST US From: Nick Scholtes Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts Randy and Jimmie, I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help jumpi ng in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm kinda' sp eculating here, but here goes: I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different pre ssure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally unrelat ed. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve value" o f the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax filter, but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate their fi lter and justify their price. An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only com es into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure acro ss the filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the engi ne may be damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the filter ). The filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the "filter" p art, and simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again, this only happens in a non-normal situation, and will only be brought on by the fil ter producing enough resistance to the oil flow that the pressure across the filter builds high enough to pop the bypass valve. And I emphasize t hat the pressure across the filter is what matters, just because a motor has a high pressure oil pump doesn't mean that the bypass valve should be bypassing, even with a high pressure oil pump the filter should still be able to flow enough volume of oil to keep the pressure drop across the f ilter to a minimum. In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the eng ine is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming int o play, and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat irr elevant, as long as it goes into bypass before there's a catastrophic f ailure, that's all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax, who is to say th at one picked a better pressure bypass number than the other? I want a b ypass value high enough that it NEVER goes into bypass in normal operatio n. Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate an oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in microns), the quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and the bypass p ressure value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in my opinion. The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of c ompression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the CarQ uest. After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter work s", and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk about the bypass valve, and also a different type of filtering technique called "b ypass filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages that talk a bout differences in fineness, and also differences in quality. Interesti ng reading on this topic. Nick Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes through the filter or not? The number of compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ??????? I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure relief valves. It is not easy to come by! Randy =2E ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:45 AM PST US From: "Margaret Hastedt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Upgrades I also bought the under-seat bin, but opted to cut out the front of it instead. I installed a fabric front panel with elastic at the top so that I can just reach in, but it keeps stuff from coming out accidentally. I wanted to be able to access it in flight even with a passenger present. You're right, not much space, but it's good for maps and fuel strainers and stuff like that. The "big stuff" goes in the baggage sack. For that I made a lightweight stiffening frame out of 3/8" aluminum tubing with some thin plastic pop-riveted to it as a floor. Didn't want anything rubbing on the controls. In hindsight, I would just install the baggage sack. My $.02, Margaret H. Classic IV N3076U College Station, TX >>> lynnmatt@jps.net 12/5/2006 10:39:26 AM >>> I added one "under-seat" bin, on the passenger side, and it works ok....PITA to install, but not too bad to use. The seat must be empty of course, but after that it's just a matter of (in my plane, that is) lifting the seat cushion/upholstery and lifting the hinged lid. I keep my fuel sump drain device, a funnel, a few tools, a rag, windshield cleaner, and a quart of oil if I'm heading far away...a "flat" quart that is...a "round" quart won't fit. There is a little room left, but not much, because it's a tapered compartment. Lynn On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 07:14 AM, Fox5flyer wrote: > > All of those sound like nice upgrades Dave, but ask yourself just one > question. Are they necessary? The reason I say this is because every > one ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:35 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts Nick, that's good information and I agree that the bypass spring is most likely not the problem. However, I believe the filter's anti-drain back membrane (check valve) can be a possible cause. An ineffective check valve will let too much, or even all, of the oil to drain back into the crankcase which would take a lot of flips of the prop to create enough pressure to push oil past the filter and into the reservoir to the point that it "burps", which, as I see it, is nothing more than the air in the line being evacuated. I might be totally wrong on this, but it makes sense to me. A hundred or more prop pulls would wear a guy out! Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Scholtes To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts Randy and Jimmie, I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help jumping in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm kinda' speculating here, but here goes: I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different pressure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally unrelated. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve value" of the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax filter, but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate their filter and justify their price. An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only comes into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure across the filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the engine may be damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the filter). The filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the "filter" part, and simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again, this only happens in a non-normal situation, and will only be brought on by the filter producing enough resistance to the oil flow that the pressure across the filter builds high enough to pop the bypass valve. And I emphasize that the pressure across the filter is what matters, just because a motor has a high pressure oil pump doesn't mean that the bypass valve should be bypassing, even with a high pressure oil pump the filter should still be able to flow enough volume of oil to keep the pressure drop across the filter to a minimum. In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the engine is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming into play, and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat irrelevant, as long as it goes into bypass before there's a catastrophic failure, that's all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax, who is to say that one picked a better pressure bypass number than the other? I want a bypass value high enough that it NEVER goes into bypass in normal operation. Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate an oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in microns), the quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and the bypass pressure value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in my opinion. The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of compression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the CarQuest. After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter works", and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk about the bypass valve, and also a different type of filtering technique called "bypass filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages that talk about differences in fineness, and also differences in quality. Interesting reading on this topic. Nick Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes through the filter or not? The number of compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ??????? I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure relief valves. It is not easy to come by! Randy . 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:37 AM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use a coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If one is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. I forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and the cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical comparison study: http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story. Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only restriction in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That is the reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when light oil is used. Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve? Regards, Paul ================== At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote: >It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the >filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the >engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more >effective than others and it may even vary from filter to >filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) >just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is >a difference. >Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some >sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That >may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly. >Deke > >John > >Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and >puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes >needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest >filters. I think we are close to discovering something >significant. Please keep me informed. > >Thank you. > >Jimmie >----- Original Message ----- >From: JOHN May >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL >Jimmie, >I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I >am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by >"burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this >correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to >check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter >also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I >change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled >before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model >IV-1200 912 UL N48PN ) >...snip... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:33 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades From: "kitfoxmike" I for one would like to go to the plexy rear, but, haven't done it yet. The oil thermostate, I installed one and feel that is the best thing I've put on the engine, period. Even works great in the summer time, I start the engine, and before I get to the runway it's ready to go, about 5 minutes. In the winter time, I'm talking currently 25 degrees, it takes about 15 minutes, maybe a little sooner. But I'm assured that the engine is running at around 180-220 all the time, no matter what time of year, no more putting tape on the cooler in the winter and quick warm ups, I love it. I also have the 912ul The under seat, I want to but haven't done that one either, I like the fact that items I don't use, but need, can be put in an area that ain't gonna affect weight and balance, just gross weight. -------- kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79341#79341 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:07 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Oil Filter Thoughts From: "kitfoxmike" Jees, What a mess that has brought up. I use the Carquest filter. I for one don't turn the prop over and wait to here that gurgle, or what ever. I did when I first got the airplane. What I do is this. I do my inspection of the airplane, I get to the prop and inspect that, look inside the front engine area. I turn the prop about 4 compression strokes, to make sure it isn't compression locked. Then I get in the airplane turn on the master only, keep the mags OFF, and turn the engine over with choke for about a count of 4 in the summer and 12 in the winter, while watching the oil guage to make sure I have normal pressure. Then I stop turning over the engine and turn on the mags, engine fires right up and pressure comes right up. Never had an issue, I put in over 200 hours this year and about that last year. I don't intend to change this, I also cut open the filters after an oil change and there is nothing in there. One last note: the filter isn't the real issue why the oil goes into the engine, it's the possision of the oil tank, sure the filter will cause it to flow into the engine faster, possibly, but the oil tank higher than the engine is what really does it. -------- kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79347#79347 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:07 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Search for oil leak From: "kitfoxmike" No. one place for a leak on these is the vent, leaks out here only when flying. No. 2 is a place where you spilled some oil from a previous oil change. -------- kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79362#79362 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Preheater From: "Magdic, Steve" For What It's Worth: Just purchased a ZODI 24 volt heater for $99 + $5 shipping on sale at Costco.com. I figured it's worth a try and looks very portable. I'll let everyone know if it fits in the pod. Thanks for the "heads up" Deke Mikado. Steve Magdic CCCCCCCCCCColdddddddd WWWisconsinnnn........... Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:07 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades From: "crazyivan" Thanks for the responses so far. FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad. - So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat things. Use it only for long trips. - As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my original deck leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the rain. - I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter than the solid rubber puck that's on there now. - Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing on rough strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires. - Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will keep my flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents. -------- Dave Speedster 912 UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79387#79387 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:21 PM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades Just so that you know , Matco has a 6 inch pneumatic now too.......... and it an turned 6061 wheel not cast. I think the 8 inch is cast. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "crazyivan" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades > > Thanks for the responses so far. > > FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad. > > - So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat > things. Use it only for long trips. > - As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my > original deck leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the > rain. > - I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter > than the solid rubber puck that's on there now. > - Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing > on rough strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires. > - Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will > keep my flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents. > > -------- > Dave > Speedster 912 UL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79387#79387 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:36 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are both Wix products manufactured by Dana. I also use the Napa Gold on my Soob and replace it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure it's cheap insurance. The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump system to the 912, but with a check valve in the line going to the sump to prevent drain back. Between that and the filter anti drain back valve, the system is always ready. If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard of any of them going bad though. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: PWilson To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use a coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If one is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. I forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and the cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical comparison study: http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilter s.html Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story. Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only restriction in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That is the reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when light oil is used. Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve? Regards, Paul ================== At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote: It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more effective than others and it may even vary from filter to filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is a difference. Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly. Deke John Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and Carquest filters. I think we are close to discovering something significant. Please keep me informed. Thank you. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN May To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by "burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is filled before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model IV-1200 912 UL N48PN ) ...snip... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:49 PM PST US From: "Frank Miles" Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Gap Can anyone tell me the proper spark plug for a Rotax 582? Frank -- 4:07 PM ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:37 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts I also agree with Nicks thoughts. The bypass comes in to play, in my estimation with an abused system - inadequate oil changes. I have thought a lot about the tendency of the oil draining into the crank case from the tank and possible solutions. I have to "burp" mine before flight as well and in the past, it took fewer compression strokes after an oil change, then progressively more as the hours mounted. The geometry of the system is as mike states. The oil tank being higher than the Rotax recommended position will siphon the oil in the tank back to the crankcase. This actually sould be stated as "forward" into the crank case as the return line is higher than the oil level in the tank and any movement of oil from the tank to the crank case is in a forward direction through the pick-up line - tank, pick-up tube, oil cooler, oil pump, oil filter oil journals and crank case. Neither the bypass valve nor the anti-drainback valve are involved with the movement of the oil because there is very little pressure and the oil is moving from the tank to the engine in the normal direction. Since the oil is purged from the crank case by blowby gasses, I always thought the relative fit of the rings and valves would determine the bypass pressure and be the predominant factor in the number of compression strokes needed to fill the oil tank, i.e., a good tight engine - low bypass gasses and lots of strokes, a tired worn engine (or a new engine) with lots of bypass - few strokes. I think other factors involved are oil temperatures - thickness of the oil and the duration between flights. My guess is that most of the flow from the tank occurs immediately after shutdown when the oil is warm and relatively thinner. I have burped several days before a flight and the oil remained fairly high on the dipstick at flight time. Much of this is opinion and I am interested in other's thoughts. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:25 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts Nick, that's good information and I agree that the bypass spring is most likely not the problem. However, I believe the filter's anti-drain back membrane (check valve) can be a possible cause. An ineffective check valve will let too much, or even all, of the oil to drain back into the crankcase which would take a lot of flips of the prop to create enough pressure to push oil past the filter and into the reservoir to the point that it "burps", which, as I see it, is nothing more than the air in the line being evacuated. I might be totally wrong on this, but it makes sense to me. A hundred or more prop pulls would wear a guy out! Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Scholtes To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Filter Thoughts Randy and Jimmie, I've been following this oil filter thread a bit, and couldn't help jumping in a bit. I'm not an oil-filter expert by any means, so I'm kinda' speculating here, but here goes: I believe that the "number of compression strokes" and the "different pressure relief value" are totally different issues, and are totally unrelated. I also believe that the alleged "different pressure relieve value" of the Rotax filter is no reason whatsoever to purchase the Rotax filter, but it's the only thing that Rotax can point to to differentiate their filter and justify their price. An oil filter's pressure relief system is a safety system and it only comes into play when the filter is completely clogged, and the pressure across the filter builds to the point where the filter may burst (or the engine may be damaged due to all of the pressure drop being across the filter). The filter has a valve in it that will open, bypassing the "filter" part, and simply allowing oil to flow past, unfiltered. Again, this only happens in a non-normal situation, and will only be brought on by the filter producing enough resistance to the oil flow that the pressure across the filter builds high enough to pop the bypass valve. And I emphasize that the pressure across the filter is what matters, just because a motor has a high pressure oil pump doesn't mean that the bypass valve should be bypassing, even with a high pressure oil pump the filter should still be able to flow enough volume of oil to keep the pressure drop across the filter to a minimum. In an aircraft situation where the oil is changed religiously and the engine is maintained well, I just don't see the relief valve ever coming into play, and in the odd situation that it would, the value is somewhat irrelevant, as long as it goes into bypass before there's a catastrophic failure, that's all that matters. So, CarQuest or Rotax, who is to say that one picked a better pressure bypass number than the other? I want a bypass value high enough that it NEVER goes into bypass in normal operation. Anyway, in my opinion, there are several things that can differentiate an oil filter: The "fineness" of the filter (usually measured in microns), the quality and hence longevity of the filter material, and the bypass pressure value. The bypass pressure value is a non-issue, in my opinion. The "fineness" could be what is contributing to the different number of compression strokes, maybe the Rotax filter has a finer mesh than the CarQuest. After I wrote the above, I did a Google search on "How an oil filter works", and there are a couple of really good pages there that talk about the bypass valve, and also a different type of filtering technique called "bypass filtering" (not related to the bypass valve), and pages that talk about differences in fineness, and also differences in quality. Interesting reading on this topic. Nick Time: 09:54:42 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Jimmie, What does the amount of blow-by have to do with whether all the oil goes through the filter or not? The number of compression strokes should have everything to do with ring leakage and nothing to do with by-passing the oil filter. ??????? I have been trying to get info on the pressure values for the pressure relief valves. It is not easy to come by! Randy .. 3D============================================ 3D============================================ 3D============================================ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:38 PM PST US From: "Frank Miles" Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Gap Sorry, left out the =93gap=94 part . . . . . Frank -- 12/5/2006 4:07 PM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:17 PM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Gap Frank, I have BR8ES in my 582 solid tips ( not screw tips) I gap at .018 - I am over due for plugs now with near 95 hours on these since July . I am trying for 100 hours to prove it works :) I think rotax specs are 016 to 020 . And yes those Alum screw tips can come loose , not just the screwed on tip but the tip will wear from rubbing on the steel clip inside the plug cap and will cause a flat spot and they do not hold on then. Hope this helps , Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Miles To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:18 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Gap Can anyone tell me the proper spark plug for a Rotax 582? Frank -- 12/5/2006 4:07 PM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:05 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Upgrades About the only thing I can take issue with is the Maule tailwheel. The hard rubber type is a 6" unit and I think it's about a pound lighter than the pneumatic type which is an 8" inch unit. Have you considered the Home Builders Special? Very light and soft rubber for a better ride. Might even be lighter than the Maule 6 inch. I can't argue with the thermostat. Quick warmups and not having to screw around with covers for the radiator/oil cooler is a good thing. Deke > > Thanks for the responses so far. > > FoxFlyer - I think like you...weight is bad. > > - So I think I might go with a removable cargo pod instead of the seat things. Use it only for long trips. > - As for the lexan turtle deck, It's probably a bit heavier but my original deck leaks water like a screen door when she's parked in the rain. > - I'm not sure but I think that the Maule pneumatic tailwheel is lighter than the solid rubber puck that's on there now. > - Big ole' tundra tires because they look cool and taxiing/takeoff/landing on rough strips would be less harsh than on my John Deere tractor tires. > - Thermostat for the reason that KitfoxMike wrote. Maine winters will keep my flow-through oil cooler way to cold on descents. > > -------- > Dave > Speedster 912 UL ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:38 PM PST US From: "Glenn Horne" Subject: Kitfox-List: KitFox Model II I have put my KitFox up for sale. I have put it on Barnstormers and also on EBay. The Item Number on EBay is 280057173786 Anyone looking for a nice model II check it out. Glenn Horne Model II Suffolk, Virginia. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation From: "FlyboyTR" I have been having on-going issues with my Vixen. The engine is currently off awaiting parts for the Continental IO-240 starter. This is the link to that problem if you're interested. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=19174 Yesterday I noticed fuel dripping off the side of the plane. According to the fuel gauges I had lost around 14 gallons! It was dripping out of the wing, running into the aileron...dripping out of the aileron and down the side of the fuselage. Turned the fuel valves off and siphoned the tank. Today we folded the right wing to access the fuel fittings. There was nothing obvious until I realized the sight gauge fitting at the bottom was loose...it would move in and out about 1/8". This is the semi rigid gauge. Removed, inspected and determined it had to be the culprit...just loose! Reinstalled and everything is dry. I will check the other side tomorrow! Before re-installing the sight gauge I cut a length of red spray spout tubing (the little hose that comes on a can of WD-40, etc) and inserted it into the sight gauge. I had read about this in an old post but there was no mention of how well it worked. As I was adding fuel (checking for the leak) my wife was the first to notice the difference in ease of reading the sight gauge. I was quite impressed when I looked at it...much easier to see and identify the fuel level. Now, to my needs... :) I want to replace the clear fuel line that runs from the header tank (behind the seat) to the top of the right fuel tank. In years past I have used vinyl fuel line but always had easy access for inspection purposes. I would like to know what is now (since I've been away from flying for some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for this type of application? ID is 1/4". As always, any and all help/input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Travis :) -------- Travis Rayner Mobile, AL Skystar Vixen N-789DF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79440#79440 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:10 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Don leaving ?????? Thanks but, I may not be leaving the ranks. No one seems to be knocking my door down to buy my Fox. Well Don I hate to say this but maybe this is in our favour. Are you sure you want to sell your Kitfox especially at that price ?????? Seriously if you really do want to sell it I wish you luck. Rex. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:07 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re incident Now a search and recovery. Witnesses reported a straight in about 300 yards offshore. I flew the coast more than an hour today and saw only sea lions and bubbles from the divers. Sonar arrives tommorow. Ron NB Ore Ron I also offer my condolences. I hope you are able to come to terms with this sooner than later. Kind Regards, Rex. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:40 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Thanks Paul ================= At 12:55 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote: >If I'm not mistaken Paul, Napa Gold and Silver are both Wix products >manufactured by Dana. I also use the Napa Gold on my Soob and >replace it every 25 hours, not because it's required, but I figure >it's cheap insurance. >The NSI EA81 uses a similar remote sump system to the 912, but with >a check valve in the line going to the sump to prevent drain >back. Between that and the filter anti drain back valve, the system >is always ready. If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been >to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard >of any of them going bad though. >Deke > >----- Original Message ----- >From: PWilson >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 12:45 PM >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL > >Correct about the filter seal. There are several studies on the web >to compare filters. The filters that are of the highest quality use >a coil spring and a soft silicone seal for the drain back valve. If >one is not sure just cut the old one apart and examine the quality. >I forget all the high quality ones. For all my cars/trucks I have >settled on NAPA Gold since they are so handy. Another good brand was >Wix. These two had the largest surface area and the best seal and >the cost was not unreasonable. Here is another link for a typical >comparison study: >http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html >Google "oil filter testing" or "oil filter comparison" for more >links. The mopar link you referred to is a better link >http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have read a >bunch of these links and you are giving good advice. The links tell the story. > >Not sure about the Rotax internal flow path check valve because I >don't have my Rotax manual available but I think the only >restriction in the oil line is the pump and line/hose friction. That >is the reason some guys have drain back after a hot shutdown when >light oil is used. >Just curious - how is the Sub plumbed. Check valve? >Regards, Paul >================== >At 04:27 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote: >>It may simply be the quality and fit of the check valve in the >>filter. It's there to keep the oil from draining back to the >>engine so the filter is always full. Some filters are more >>effective than others and it may even vary from filter to >>filter. If someone has a Rotax filter and a Wix (or Fram, etc.) >>just cut the two apart and compare the internals. I'd bet there is >>a difference. >>Also, since the 912 is a dry sump operation there has to be some >>sort of a check valve in the plumbing to the reservoir too. That >>may need replacing if it isn't sealing properly. >>Deke >> >>John >>Yes, the gurgle is what I am referring to. I am still amazed and >>puzzedled by the difference between the number of compression >>stokes needed to get the, "burp or gurgle", from the Rotax and >>Carquest filters. I think we are close to discovering something >>significant. Please keep me informed. >>Thank you. >>Jimmie >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: JOHN May >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:17 PM >>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL >>Jimmie, >>I will check out the number of compression strokes the next time I >>am at the airport. Just to be sure I understand what you mean by >>"burp" I think you mean the gurgleing noise it makes, is this >>correct? Do you mean when you first hear the gurgle? I will have >>to check it out but my guess is that 30 is about right for my >>filter also. The only time I turn the engine that many strokes is >>after I change the oil and I am trying to make sure the system is >>filled before I start it up. John May from Kalamazoo ( Model >>IV-1200 912 UL N48PN ) >>...snip... > > >href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > >href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > >href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > >href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:35 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard of any of them going bad though. Deke This is the quandry. How do you install a check valve that will prevent oil movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will (without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up. Remember the oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return line which is above the tank oil level is not a player. Lowell ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:35 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation Travis, I went with tygon. 2.5 years and very happy thus far. I tried to find records but.. it was an ultralight supply web site. Google it. I do like being able to see the fuel in the line. Others have been happy with the blue stuff from Aircraft Spruce. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FlyboyTR Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation I have been having on-going issues with my Vixen. The engine is currently off awaiting parts for the Continental IO-240 starter. This is the link to that problem if you're interested. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=19174 Yesterday I noticed fuel dripping off the side of the plane. According to the fuel gauges I had lost around 14 gallons! It was dripping out of the wing, running into the aileron...dripping out of the aileron and down the side of the fuselage. Turned the fuel valves off and siphoned the tank. Today we folded the right wing to access the fuel fittings. There was nothing obvious until I realized the sight gauge fitting at the bottom was loose...it would move in and out about 1/8". This is the semi rigid gauge. Removed, inspected and determined it had to be the culprit...just loose! Reinstalled and everything is dry. I will check the other side tomorrow! Before re-installing the sight gauge I cut a length of red spray spout tubing (the little hose that comes on a can of WD-40, etc) and inserted it into the sight gauge. I had read about this in an old post but there was no mention of how well it worked. As I was adding fuel (checking for the leak) my wife was the first to notice the difference in ease of reading the sight gauge. I was quite impressed when I looked at it...much easier to see and identify the fuel level. Now, to my needs... :) I want to replace the clear fuel line that runs from the header tank (behind the seat) to the top of the right fuel tank. In years past I have used vinyl fuel line but always had easy access for inspection purposes. I would like to know what is now (since I've been away from flying for some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for this type of application? ID is 1/4". As always, any and all help/input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Travis :) -------- Travis Rayner Mobile, AL Skystar Vixen N-789DF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79440#79440 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:35 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Filters for 912UL Good question Lowell. It shows you're thinking! I was speaking of the return line to the firewall sump as on my NSI engine. My return line is large, about 3/4" ID and the check valve is low on the line near the crankcase. The valve inhibits any back flow to the crankcase. At first I assumed that the 912 had a similar plumbing arrangement, but obviously that's not necessarily true, or maybe it is, but sans the check valve, thereby allowing the line to drain back. Deke > > If Rotax left off the check valve it may have been > to reduce parts count and potential failure points. I haven't heard > of any of them going bad though. > Deke > > This is the quandry. How do you install a check valve that will prevent oil > movement in the intake line while the engine is not running, but will > (without fail) allow oil to flow to the pump after start-up. Remember the > oil is running from the tank to the engine in both cases and the return line > which is above the tank oil level is not a player. > > Lowell > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:20 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Vixen: Fuel Gauge Leak.. and Clear Fuel Line Recommendation At 04:06 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote: >I would like to know what is now (since I've been away from flying for >some time...) considered to be the best clear fuel line for this type of >application? I like the Bing Blue out of ACS. (Bing Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line.) It got rave reviews on past web searches and is pre-discolored for 100LL. ;-) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:41 PM PST US From: Jim Corner Subject: Kitfox-List: 0-235 vs Turbo Subaru This is maybe a problem that most of you wish you had..... and to many the answer might be very obvious. I have 1 each of the above two engines, one I purchased and the other I received on a debt owing. For this question assume that installed cost is about the same. Installed weights are about the same...... and one of these engines is going into a Kitfox Model 5, I just can't seem to make a final decision and stick with it. The Sube has more power 150+ vs 115 for the Lyc The Lyc has a longer proven history of reliability, and perhaps a little easier to install and maintain. The S5 Kitfox will be equipped for night flying, i don't expect any hard IFR, floats may come later. One week I am convinced that I will install the Sube, next the Lyc. Have to make up my mind very soon, pre-cover inspection coming right up. Which one should I install? Comments appreciated. Jim PS: I currently fly a Model 2, 582 s/n 575 just over 1100 hrs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.