Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:56 AM - Re: Floats (Paul Seehafer)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: Kitfox for sale (Glenn Horne)
3. 05:47 AM - Re: Kit Fox Tires only $2.50? (john perry)
4. 06:00 AM - Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Paul Seehafer)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Rexinator)
6. 08:02 AM - FW: model II mixer box upgrade (Lines, John)
7. 08:02 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Tom Jones)
8. 08:16 AM - Sealing NPT Threads against fuel (Nick Scholtes)
9. 08:40 AM - Re: Sealing NPT Threads against fuel (kitfoxmike)
10. 08:55 AM - model II mixer box upgrade (Fox5flyer)
11. 09:23 AM - Re: smashed fox (Noel Loveys)
12. 09:39 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Noel Loveys)
13. 09:39 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (akflyer)
14. 10:00 AM - Ski Rigging Question .. Re: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (dave)
15. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Paul Seehafer)
16. 10:49 AM - Poly oil injection tank (Don Smythe)
17. 10:59 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Paul Seehafer)
18. 11:43 AM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (akflyer)
19. 11:46 AM - Re: model II mixer box upgrade (Lines, John)
20. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Michel Verheughe)
21. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Stall speed noise (Michel Verheughe)
22. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Noel Loveys)
23. 01:23 PM - Re: Kit Fox Tires only $2.50? (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
24. 01:29 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Noel Loveys)
25. 02:40 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (dave)
26. 02:50 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Lynn Matteson)
27. 04:28 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (john perry)
28. 05:08 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (dave)
29. 06:01 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (akflyer)
30. 06:08 PM - Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting (kurt schrader)
31. 06:20 PM - Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting (dave)
32. 06:20 PM - Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (john perry)
33. 06:39 PM - Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting (john perry)
34. 11:44 PM - Ski installation WAS: Older Kitfox cruise speeds (Michel Verheughe)
Message 1
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Just sent it to your personal e-mail Marco. The article however is more
about flying the Kitfox on the new aerocet floats (at that time) than it
is about the airplane. But it documents the history of Kitfox and
Aerocet quite well. Unfortunately Aerocet no longer makes small
floats.
Paul Seehafer
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Floats
Hey Paul, do you have the article that goes with that cover? If so
could you scan it and send me a copy?
Thanks.
Paul Seehafer <av8rps@tznet.com> wrote:
Glenn,
You can definitely put a model 2 on floats, but to do so one needed
to add brackets to the lower longerons forward of the current landing
gear brackets. I would suggest contacting Kitfox to see if they still
sell the add on brackets. That would be easier than trying to make your
own.
Here's a picture of Dan Denneys N89DD Model 2 on floats. It shows
all four brackets that were available, but you really only need two if
you analyze the picture.
Paul Seehafer
Model IV 912 amphib
Central Wisconsin
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox for sale |
I think you are talking to me(Glenn Horne)
Yes I have a Model II for sale. Look under Barnstormers under
taildraggers.
All your question are answer there.
Glenn Horne
Suffolk, Va
Model II 582
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Floats
Did this start by stating you have a fox for sale? How mush do you
want for it? how long have you had it? Where is it at? have you tried
barnstormers? Do you have PICS or a video? I know a guy that mite
want to trade you two for one. mal
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kit Fox Tires only $2.50? |
I just talked to Kevin ans YES ITS TRUE $2.50 for tires each . they have a
warehouse full and need to move them out .
Fly safe fly low fly slow fly fun fly KITFOX
John Perry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Ridsdale" <ksridsdale@mipowerparachute.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kit Fox Tires only $2.50?
> <ksridsdale@mipowerparachute.com>
>
> 21"x12"x8" NEW Treadless tires for Kitfox Aircraft
>
> THIS $2.50/TIRE CHRISTMAS SALE ENDS DECEMBER 31/06 AT
> MIDNIGHT OR WHEN OUR LIMITED STOCK IS SOLD OUT
>
> CONTINENTIAL USA shipping cost is $25.00/2 tires
> (Delivery time up to 4 days).
>
> ALASKA & THE EUROPEAN UNION (EU) shipping cost is
> $66.00/2 tires (Delivery time 4-6 weeks).
>
> CANADA shipping cost is $46.00/2 tires (Delivery time
> 3-4 weeks).
>
> Call between 5:00 PM - 9:30 PM EST or email MiPPi
> Ultralights today 734-377-2670. No restriction on
> quantities ordered.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Happy Holidays Everyone!
I was just looking through some old articles and thought I'd share this one
with the group.
On page 2 I've underlined in red ink what Denney Aircraft did to change the
wing incidence of the model 2's (and 3's as I recall). I thought I'd bring
this up because over the years I've noticed owners of older Kitfoxes puzzled
why their cruise is so much slower than the newer Kitfoxes, and in many
cases slower than Avid Flyers. In my opinion this article pretty much
explains it.
Sure, the newer Kitfox (Riblett) airfoil helps to make the newer Kitfoxes
cruise faster, but even if you were to put a new Riblett wing on an older
Kitfox, my guess is you wouldn't see a lot of cruise speed increase, because
there is just too much positive wing incidence causing a lot of drag.
(fwiw - I believe part of the Model IV mods made were to put the wing
incidence back where it belonged. Consequently, all newer Kitfoxes have
reduced wing incidence angles compared to the 2's and 3's). Hopefully this
information might keep a few owners of the older airplanes from going crazy
trying to "clean up" their airplanes in the hope of attaining the higher
cruise speeds.
In defense of the change Denney made back then, newer Kitfoxes will most
likely never be able to take off as short, fly as slow, or land as short as
the older airplanes. So all that positive wing incidence helps in all those
areas. Everything's a trade-off ...
As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the airplane on the
cover? Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it (experts usually
laugh when they see this picture).
Paul Seehafer
Model IV-1200 Amphib
Central Wisconsin
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Looks like a asymmetrical wing strut modification. :-) Not a popular
option.
Rex
Colorado
do not archive
Paul Seehafer wrote:
> Happy Holidays Everyone!
>
> <SNIPPED>
> As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the airplane on
> the cover? Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it
> (experts usually laugh when they see this picture).
Message 6
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| Subject: | FW: model II mixer box upgrade |
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
________________________________
From: Lines, John
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: FW: model II mixer box upgrade
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
________________________________
From: Lines, John
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:10 PM
Subject: model II mixer box upgrade
Hi folks, new to the group. I have heard that someone has grafted in an
flaperon mixer from a IV or later model. Not wanting to re-invent the
wheel, I would relish some info / contact point on the subject. My model
II is a great performer, but the flaperons "stink". Some of you may have
seen my bird.....it is the model II that used to be on the "old" Skystar
website. Fly safe and thanks, JWL
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intende
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
I don't see any aft shock cords on the skis.
Tom Jones, skiplane wannabe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82644#82644
Message 8
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| Subject: | Sealing NPT Threads against fuel |
Kurt,
I'm not a plumber either, but I live on a farm and we end up very often
becoming "jack of all trades" in some ways!
I had been trying to find a descent pipe sealant that would work with
fuel (gasoline or diesel) applications for years and years. Teflon tape
just simply does not work, it "melts" from the fuel and gums everything
up, it's terrible. I also tried a Locktite product that was supposed to
be OK with fuels, but I didn't think it worked very well either.
Anyway, about 10 years ago I found a product that absolutely,
positively, works absolutely perfect to seal NPT (tapered) pipe threads
against petroleum products. It is a thick black graphite paste. I buy
it at McMaster-Carr supply company. If you want to see it, go here:
http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for this part number: 4586K8,
it's called "Key Graphite Paste".
We have overhead fuel tanks to fuel up the tractors and stuff, and there
are a bunch of joints on the tanks that connect the filter to the hose
to the valve, etc. We've been using this graphite paste on these NPT
fittings for 10 years and it really works, holds up in weather and
everything, lasts forever.
Best,
Nick
>
>Time: 06:04:49 AM PST US
>From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting
>
>
>I had to buy a new gascolator for this too. I could
>only get 3 threads turned into mine with the pipe
>fitting to hose coupling. Thought that wasn't enough
>for security and to prevenbt leaks. I cut the threads
>a bit deeper to get more turns in. Instead the
>fitting hit the interior of the gascolator and split
>it open.
>
>I've been called a plumber, but....
>
>I have been using teflon paste on the outer threads on
>my plane's fittings instead of tape. Tried blue
>colored auto store sealant first (ATV?) but had 7
>leaks with it on the first try with fuel. So far this
>has worked and no junk in the lines. But you must be
>careful to only paste the last few threads.
>
>A non-plumber's 2 cents worth.
>
>Kurt S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sealing NPT Threads against fuel |
I went and resealed all my connections, at the tank, the fuel check at the bottom
of the tanks, the header tank connections and used this. permatex high prefomance
tread sealant, item# 56521. I did this about 1.5 years ago and about
400 hrs. The connections are still great with no leaks.
kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82657#82657
Message 10
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| Subject: | model II mixer box upgrade |
I'm curious John. Why do you say they stink? I've had both and
although they're different, both have their good points. The upgraded
mixer provides less adverse yaw, but at the expense of it being more
difficult to fold the wings, as more things have to be disconnected.
There have been many damaged flaperons while folding the wings on the IV
and above. The III and below mixer is more complex, and provides more
adverse yaw, but it's easily mastered and after awhile it's not
noticeable. Folding the wings is a breeze because nothing needs to be
disconnected other than to pull the spar pins.
It wouldn't be reinventing the wheel to change over, but it would be a
major project and IMO the result wouldn't be worth the effort and
considerable expense. Just my opinion John and others may differ. I
believe I recall someone on the list who successfully accomplished this
mod, but I can't recall who it was. Good luck in whatever you decide to
do and keep us informed.
Deke
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Lines, John
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:10 PM
To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
Subject: model II mixer box upgrade
Hi folks, new to the group. I have heard that someone has grafted in
an flaperon mixer from a IV or later model. Not wanting to re-invent the
wheel, I would relish some info / contact point on the subject. My model
II is a great performer, but the flaperons "stink". Some of you may have
seen my bird...it is the model II that used to be on the "old" Skystar
website. Fly safe and thanks, JWL
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
Message 11
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Someone mentioned that kind of accident quite some time ago. I always
tie
my flapperons together behind the rudder with a piece of bungey
chord.....
Just incase one of those little holders decide not to!
Always goo to keep these things in mind.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Malcolmbru@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:47 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: smashed fox
I saw a mod 3 today, the guy was hauling it backwards on a trailer and
the
bolt that holds the wing against the fuselage came out the wing slammed
forward (back) then he hit a concrete overpass pillar it totaled the
wing
the cross overs in the cockpit windshield and both doors. He also
showed
me a model 2 he landed in the trees a couple of years ago it also needs
alot of work mal
Message 12
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| Subject: | Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends on the other.
Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the plane from the
bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Seehafer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:28 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
> Happy Holidays Everyone!
>
> I was just looking through some old articles and thought I'd
> share this one
> with the group.
>
> On page 2 I've underlined in red ink what Denney Aircraft did
> to change the
> wing incidence of the model 2's (and 3's as I recall). I
> thought I'd bring
> this up because over the years I've noticed owners of older
> Kitfoxes puzzled
> why their cruise is so much slower than the newer Kitfoxes,
> and in many
> cases slower than Avid Flyers. In my opinion this article
> pretty much
> explains it.
>
> Sure, the newer Kitfox (Riblett) airfoil helps to make the
> newer Kitfoxes
> cruise faster, but even if you were to put a new Riblett wing
> on an older
> Kitfox, my guess is you wouldn't see a lot of cruise speed
> increase, because
> there is just too much positive wing incidence causing a lot of drag.
> (fwiw - I believe part of the Model IV mods made were to put
> the wing
> incidence back where it belonged. Consequently, all newer
> Kitfoxes have
> reduced wing incidence angles compared to the 2's and 3's).
> Hopefully this
> information might keep a few owners of the older airplanes
> from going crazy
> trying to "clean up" their airplanes in the hope of attaining
> the higher
> cruise speeds.
>
> In defense of the change Denney made back then, newer
> Kitfoxes will most
> likely never be able to take off as short, fly as slow, or
> land as short as
> the older airplanes. So all that positive wing incidence
> helps in all those
> areas. Everything's a trade-off ...
>
> As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the
> airplane on the
> cover? Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it
> (experts usually
> laugh when they see this picture).
>
> Paul Seehafer
> Model IV-1200 Amphib
> Central Wisconsin
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
looks like a photochop to me...
The photo looks like the plane is in the air, but the skis are not in the correct
position for flying... the ski tips are low and the rear limiter cables are
sagging suggesting that it is sitting on the ground.
--------
Leni
Avid C W/582
1260 full lotus
.......DO NOT ARCHIVE.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82676#82676
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Tom,
Shock cords only used on the front of the ski as well as a Safety wire and
or a safety cable.
On the rear a safety cable only . -- no bungee on rear.
I posted some Ski video here a week or two ago -
http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/
Did you see the rigging in that Video?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> I don't see any aft shock cords on the skis.
> Tom Jones, skiplane wannabe
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82644#82644
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
BINGO!! Leni wins the prize! (ahem,,, we'll be mailing that out right
away....just send $54.95 to cover the shipping costs Leni) (chuckle)
Ski tips should always be up about 15 degrees in flight. Obviously in this
case they didn't understand how to rig ski cabling, as the front cable needs
to much shorter. In flight the rear cable should be taught, and the spring
bungee on the front taking up the slack in the loose front cables that is
needed to let the ski sit level on the ground when the tail is down. In
other words, the skis as they are could easily catch a tip when landing in
anything less than three point landing. Catching a tip while landing could
be disastrous. Rigging skis is a very important thing to get right as a
ski can also make for a large control surface (besides catching a tip
because it is rigged down too far). Imagine if one ski cable bungee broke,
so one ski was up 15 degrees, and the other was down say 40 degrees. I've
never flown one like that, but you had better hope you have enough control
authority from the rest of the control surfaces to stop the large downward
spiral dive you are otherwise going to enter. Don't let me scare you about
flying with skis now. Just make sure they are rigged right. This factory
demonstrator made a very good example of how to NEVER rig a ski on an
aircraft.
It was the things like this that used to cause so much riff between Avid and
Kitfox. I remember the Avid clan having a good laugh over that one
(remember, Avid was flying skis on their planes before Kitfox was even in
business. So all Kitfox would have had to do back then was to look at
theirs to get it right...) I don't mean to start any hot discussions about
which is airplane is better, because they are both marvelous airplanes, and
the Kitfox in particular has evolved rather nicely (I know I have both).
But the little things like this make it very obvious which company had the
real designer.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> looks like a photochop to me...
> The photo looks like the plane is in the air, but the skis are not in the
> correct position for flying... the ski tips are low and the rear limiter
> cables are sagging suggesting that it is sitting on the ground.
>
> --------
> Leni
> Avid C W/582
> 1260 full lotus
>
> .......DO NOT ARCHIVE.....
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82676#82676
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Poly oil injection tank |
Yesterday I noticed what appears as a crack in my Poly oil injection
tank. I'm not certain it's a crack but has all the good appearance of
one. Has anyone ever had one of the poly tanks crack? So far, I have
had to replace the rotary valve poly tank due to a crack. Those little
suckers ain't cheap (around $70). I hate to see the price on the larger
injection tank.
Don Smythe
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Noel,
I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
Paul
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends on the other.
>
> Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the plane from the
> bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>
> Noel
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Also, the front should have a limiter cable incase the bungee breaks for the very
purpose of keeping the skis from rolling into a excessive nose down attitude.
I have had it happen on RC models. Last year I had my Beaver on Skis and
caught the tip on takeoff. I had limiter calbes, but it still alowed the ski
to rotate to far. It was a bit of a handful when I tried to slow it down for
landing.. as the rudder lost effectiveness at low speeds. I was able to go into
the programing in the air and go to 140% throw on the rudder and then made
a safe landing. I would not want to do it a real plane..
--------
Leni
Avid C W/582
1260 full lotus
.......DO NOT ARCHIVE.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82707#82707
Message 19
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| Subject: | model II mixer box upgrade |
Thanks for the reply Deke. I have never cared for the roll response on
my II. I guess I have been spoiled, but they just don't respond the way
I have grown to desire. I also do not like the interference with roll as
the flaperons are lowered. Perhaps I want more than is available from
the design. A wing fold problem doesn't concern me too much, as they
stay straight most of the time. I'm sure the receipt of more info from
someone who has grafted in the later system will have a lot to do with
what I decide to do. Thanks a ton, jwl
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
________________________________
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: model II mixer box upgrade
I'm curious John. Why do you say they stink? I've had both and
although they're different, both have their good points. The upgraded
mixer provides less adverse yaw, but at the expense of it being more
difficult to fold the wings, as more things have to be disconnected.
There have been many damaged flaperons while folding the wings on the IV
and above. The III and below mixer is more complex, and provides more
adverse yaw, but it's easily mastered and after awhile it's not
noticeable. Folding the wings is a breeze because nothing needs to be
disconnected other than to pull the spar pins.
It wouldn't be reinventing the wheel to change over, but it would be a
major project and IMO the result wouldn't be worth the effort and
considerable expense. Just my opinion John and others may differ. I
believe I recall someone on the list who successfully accomplished this
mod, but I can't recall who it was. Good luck in whatever you decide to
do and keep us informed.
Deke
________________________________
From: Lines, John
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:10 PM
To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
Subject: model II mixer box upgrade
Hi folks, new to the group. I have heard that someone has
grafted in an flaperon mixer from a IV or later model. Not wanting to
re-invent the wheel, I would relish some info / contact point on the
subject. My model II is a great performer, but the flaperons "stink".
Some of you may have seen my bird.....it is the model II that used to be
on the "old" Skystar website. Fly safe and thanks, JWL
John W. Lines
Training Specialist
Apprenticeship Coordinator
Phelps Dodge Morenci Inc.
jliines@phelpsdodge.com
928-865-6762
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
On Dec 20, 2006, at 6:38 PM, akflyer wrote:
> the ski tips are low and the rear limiter cables are sagging
> suggesting that it is sitting on the ground.
Exactly! If my skis were like that in the air, I'd have a serious
problem.
Michel
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Stall speed noise |
On Dec 20, 2006, at 3:38 AM, Tom Jones wrote:
> Don't focus entirely on looking at the fabric on the top rib cap
> strips. Be sure to check the bottoms too.
WILCO. Thanks, Tom.
Michel
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
So how did they get the plane lit from the bottom? :-)
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Seehafer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 2:55 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
>
> BINGO!! Leni wins the prize! (ahem,,, we'll be mailing that
> out right
> away....just send $54.95 to cover the shipping costs Leni) (chuckle)
>
> Ski tips should always be up about 15 degrees in flight.
> Obviously in this
> case they didn't understand how to rig ski cabling, as the
> front cable needs
> to much shorter. In flight the rear cable should be taught,
> and the spring
> bungee on the front taking up the slack in the loose front
> cables that is
> needed to let the ski sit level on the ground when the tail
> is down. In
> other words, the skis as they are could easily catch a tip
> when landing in
> anything less than three point landing. Catching a tip while
> landing could
> be disastrous. Rigging skis is a very important thing to
> get right as a
> ski can also make for a large control surface (besides catching a tip
> because it is rigged down too far). Imagine if one ski cable
> bungee broke,
> so one ski was up 15 degrees, and the other was down say 40
> degrees. I've
> never flown one like that, but you had better hope you have
> enough control
> authority from the rest of the control surfaces to stop the
> large downward
> spiral dive you are otherwise going to enter. Don't let me
> scare you about
> flying with skis now. Just make sure they are rigged right.
> This factory
> demonstrator made a very good example of how to NEVER rig a ski on an
> aircraft.
>
> It was the things like this that used to cause so much riff
> between Avid and
> Kitfox. I remember the Avid clan having a good laugh over that one
> (remember, Avid was flying skis on their planes before Kitfox
> was even in
> business. So all Kitfox would have had to do back then was
> to look at
> theirs to get it right...) I don't mean to start any hot
> discussions about
> which is airplane is better, because they are both marvelous
> airplanes, and
> the Kitfox in particular has evolved rather nicely (I know I
> have both).
> But the little things like this make it very obvious which
> company had the
> real designer.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
> <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> >
> > looks like a photochop to me...
> > The photo looks like the plane is in the air, but the skis
> are not in the
> > correct position for flying... the ski tips are low and the
> rear limiter
> > cables are sagging suggesting that it is sitting on the ground.
> >
> > --------
> > Leni
> > Avid C W/582
> > 1260 full lotus
> >
> > .......DO NOT ARCHIVE.....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82676#82676
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Kit Fox Tires only $2.50? |
I got a set last year I think I payed 16 bucks for shiping so take it as a
good deal on tires. total I payed 7o ish mal
Message 24
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| Subject: | Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something manipulated.
The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me think the
picture was actually taken on the ground. Note the alignment of the ski
with the tail wheel.
My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the hangar
floor....
BTW I have a set of those composite skis. The previous owner of my plane
even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed
backwards by a ski-doo. I was warned to always remove the rear tips before
flight.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Seehafer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:29 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
>
> Noel,
>
> I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
>
> Paul
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> >
> > I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends
> on the other.
> >
> > Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the
> plane from the
> > bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
> >
> > Noel
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Those pics just show that they wer rigged with too long of cable on front
and the airflow is pushing them down.
Not a good thing at all.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something manipulated.
> The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me think
> the
> picture was actually taken on the ground. Note the alignment of the ski
> with the tail wheel.
>
> My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the hangar
> floor....
>
> BTW I have a set of those composite skis. The previous owner of my plane
> even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed
> backwards by a ski-doo. I was warned to always remove the rear tips
> before
> flight.
>
> Noel
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Paul Seehafer
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:29 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel,
>>
>> I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>
>>
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>> >
>> > I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends
>> on the other.
>> >
>> > Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the
>> plane from the
>> > bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>> >
>> > Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
The shadows look acceptable to me, Noel...it looks like a low winter
sun shot to me. Look at the shadows on the ground...they are all
being caused by the same apparent light source. If not the low sun,
then probably a strobe or single light source of some sort.
Lynn
On Dec 20, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends on the
> other.
>
> Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the plane
> from the
> bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>
> Noel
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Paul Seehafer
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:28 AM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>
>>
>> Happy Holidays Everyone!
>>
>> I was just looking through some old articles and thought I'd
>> share this one
>> with the group.
>>
>> On page 2 I've underlined in red ink what Denney Aircraft did
>> to change the
>> wing incidence of the model 2's (and 3's as I recall). I
>> thought I'd bring
>> this up because over the years I've noticed owners of older
>> Kitfoxes puzzled
>> why their cruise is so much slower than the newer Kitfoxes,
>> and in many
>> cases slower than Avid Flyers. In my opinion this article
>> pretty much
>> explains it.
>>
>> Sure, the newer Kitfox (Riblett) airfoil helps to make the
>> newer Kitfoxes
>> cruise faster, but even if you were to put a new Riblett wing
>> on an older
>> Kitfox, my guess is you wouldn't see a lot of cruise speed
>> increase, because
>> there is just too much positive wing incidence causing a lot of drag.
>> (fwiw - I believe part of the Model IV mods made were to put
>> the wing
>> incidence back where it belonged. Consequently, all newer
>> Kitfoxes have
>> reduced wing incidence angles compared to the 2's and 3's).
>> Hopefully this
>> information might keep a few owners of the older airplanes
>> from going crazy
>> trying to "clean up" their airplanes in the hope of attaining
>> the higher
>> cruise speeds.
>>
>> In defense of the change Denney made back then, newer
>> Kitfoxes will most
>> likely never be able to take off as short, fly as slow, or
>> land as short as
>> the older airplanes. So all that positive wing incidence
>> helps in all those
>> areas. Everything's a trade-off ...
>>
>> As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the
>> airplane on the
>> cover? Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it
>> (experts usually
>> laugh when they see this picture).
>>
>> Paul Seehafer
>> Model IV-1200 Amphib
>> Central Wisconsin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
NO they are not to long when you are on the ground they have to be in that
angle . Supposed to have a strong enough bungy on the front to pull them up
when in flight .
John Perry
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> Those pics just show that they wer rigged with too long of cable on front
> and the airflow is pushing them down.
> Not a good thing at all.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:29 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
>>
>> Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something manipulated.
>> The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me think
>> the
>> picture was actually taken on the ground. Note the alignment of the ski
>> with the tail wheel.
>>
>> My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the
>> hangar
>> floor....
>>
>> BTW I have a set of those composite skis. The previous owner of my plane
>> even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed
>> backwards by a ski-doo. I was warned to always remove the rear tips
>> before
>> flight.
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Paul Seehafer
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:29 PM
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Noel,
>>>
>>> I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>
>>>
>>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>> >
>>> > I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends
>>> on the other.
>>> >
>>> > Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the
>>> plane from the
>>> > bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>>> >
>>> > Noel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
John ,
When on the ground , my bungees are stretched.
When in the air the bugee pulls the ski until the safety cable on rear
become tight unless of course the front is too long which makes it loose and
the ariflow pushes the tip down.
You can see mine here in the video from 10 days ago
http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/
And my rear safety cable could afford to be about 1 inch longer.
If you need some pics, just let me know and I will post them.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "john perry" <eskflyer@lvcisp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> NO they are not to long when you are on the ground they have to be in that
> angle . Supposed to have a strong enough bungy on the front to pull them
> up when in flight .
>
> John Perry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
>>
>> Those pics just show that they wer rigged with too long of cable on front
>> and the airflow is pushing them down.
>> Not a good thing at all.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:29 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something
>>> manipulated.
>>> The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me think
>>> the
>>> picture was actually taken on the ground. Note the alignment of the ski
>>> with the tail wheel.
>>>
>>> My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the
>>> hangar
>>> floor....
>>>
>>> BTW I have a set of those composite skis. The previous owner of my
>>> plane
>>> even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed
>>> backwards by a ski-doo. I was warned to always remove the rear tips
>>> before
>>> flight.
>>>
>>> Noel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>>> Paul Seehafer
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:29 PM
>>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Noel,
>>>>
>>>> I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>>> >
>>>> > I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends
>>>> on the other.
>>>> >
>>>> > Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the
>>>> plane from the
>>>> > bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>>>> >
>>>> > Noel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
Dave,
John is painfully aware of how skis are rigged... hey John how many them have we
done ????? PA-18's, PA-12's, 180's, 185's, 206's... the list is long but distinguished...
The video was nice, but looks like the skis could be a little bigger for playing
in deep powder.
The boards I had on my 12 were larger than a set I put on a buddies 180... I kicked
his butt in the powder...
--------
Leni
Avid C W/582
1260 full lotus
.......DO NOT ARCHIVE.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=82782#82782
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting |
Hi Dave,
I found that the threads can cut the tape into little
strings that flow downstream and clog up the works.
If you remove a fitting that has been taped, you can
often find that happened.
I have used it in a few places, but very carefully
covering only the outermost threads that connect.
The direction you wrap it in counts too. Wrap it so
that it tightens as you thread it in or it will bunch
up.
Kurt S. S-5
--- dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
> Kurt, why have you NOT been using teflon tape ?
>
> Dave
__________________________________________________
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting |
Kurt-- yes I feel the same as I posted the other day here .
Dave
<
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting
Deke ,
You are right the NPT thread is tapered and where the female thread is in a
cast part they are prove to cracking from overtightening mostly. If a new
thread can be welded on -GREAT !! If not just goop it up and hope for the
best.
I am not an advocate of teflon tape for fuel and /or hydraulic lines as it
will cause clogging as the tape "threads " off in strands sometimes. If you
careful using it you might be ok but I can cause issues. I find that
plumbers putty in sticks works well and read th label to ensure it good for
gas an oils. Teflon tape Can break down when exposed to Gas and oils.
I have seen too often teflon tape pieces caught in gascolators.
I know many use it sucessfully without an issue but there are issues than
can arise and caution is warranted.
Dave>
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I found that the threads can cut the tape into little
> strings that flow downstream and clog up the works.
> If you remove a fitting that has been taped, you can
> often find that happened.
>
> I have used it in a few places, but very carefully
> covering only the outermost threads that connect.
>
> The direction you wrap it in counts too. Wrap it so
> that it tightens as you thread it in or it will bunch
> up.
>
> Kurt S. S-5
>
> --- dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
>
>> Kurt, why have you NOT been using teflon tape ?
>>
>> Dave
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
UHHHHH Dave
when sitting flat on ground with taildragger your skis should be straight
out level in front of you on the ground. Look at the pic that is how the ski
is flying . You then install your front safety cables to linit them to this
spot . now you lift the tail and to until the plane is in level flight mode
. and then add 2-3 inches up on tail . now place your rear limit safety
cables . now put your bungees on and make shure they are strong enough to
pull the skis up in the front in flight . I have done MANNNNNNNY instals on
aircraft . If you read my last post slowly you will see this is what is said
in much shorter post .
Fly safe fly low fly slow
OHH yeah MERRY CHRISTMAS almost
John Perry
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
> John ,
>
> When on the ground , my bungees are stretched.
> When in the air the bugee pulls the ski until the safety cable on rear
> become tight unless of course the front is too long which makes it loose
> and the ariflow pushes the tip down.
> You can see mine here in the video from 10 days ago
> http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/
> And my rear safety cable could afford to be about 1 inch longer.
>
> If you need some pics, just let me know and I will post them.
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "john perry" <eskflyer@lvcisp.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>
>
>>
>> NO they are not to long when you are on the ground they have to be in
>> that angle . Supposed to have a strong enough bungy on the front to pull
>> them up when in flight .
>>
>> John Perry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Those pics just show that they wer rigged with too long of cable on
>>> front and the airflow is pushing them down.
>>> Not a good thing at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:29 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something
>>>> manipulated.
>>>> The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me
>>>> think the
>>>> picture was actually taken on the ground. Note the alignment of the
>>>> ski
>>>> with the tail wheel.
>>>>
>>>> My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the
>>>> hangar
>>>> floor....
>>>>
>>>> BTW I have a set of those composite skis. The previous owner of my
>>>> plane
>>>> even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed
>>>> backwards by a ski-doo. I was warned to always remove the rear tips
>>>> before
>>>> flight.
>>>>
>>>> Noel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Paul Seehafer
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:29 PM
>>>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Noel,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:38 AM
>>>>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Older Kitfox cruise speeds
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends
>>>>> on the other.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the
>>>>> plane from the
>>>>> > bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Noel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Oil Leak - cracked fitting |
read service letter #45 reiterates what Kurt is aying DO NOT USE TEFLON
TAPE.
http://www.sportplanellc.com/support/service_letters/sl45.htm
look under fuel line fab #4
John Perry
Message 34
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| Subject: | Ski installation WAS: Older Kitfox cruise speeds |
> From: john perry [eskflyer@lvcisp.com]
> Supposed to have a strong enough bungy on the front to pull them up
> when in flight .
When I installed my skis, I was wondering how strong that pull should be. But I
figured that it doesn't need to be that strong a bungee because the shape of
the ski tip is such that the air pressure will press it upward. Do you agree?
Cheers,
Michel
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