Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Noel Loveys)
2. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (dave)
3. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Fox5flyer)
4. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (dave)
5. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (flier)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Fox5flyer)
7. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Lowell Fitt)
8. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Norwegian Stalls (Michel Verheughe)
9. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Barry West)
10. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Noel Loveys)
11. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (Barry West)
12. 03:25 PM - : Over-torqued GSC Prop - prop failure - deadsticking (dave)
13. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Norwegian Stalls (dave)
14. 07:20 PM - Re: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop (dave)
15. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: Norwegian Stalls (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Check out this page... Most of your questions will be answered here
http://www.ultralightprops.com/technical.htm#What%20is%20the%20recommended%2
0torque%20on%20all%20the%20bolts?
If the link doesn't work it's probably because the "?" question mark is
supposed to be part of the URL. You may have to cur and paste it into your
location bar.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 369PL
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:52 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
>
> Is there a minimum space? Maybe it could be checked with
> feeler blades. Does anyone know what the spec is? or is
> enough to say there is a space?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=86856#86856
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
GSC prop.
If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed, squished or
comprimised.
I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at GSC
and replace those blades.
Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want to be
there when it happens.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "369PL" <n3pupnc@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:22 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Is there a minimum space? Maybe it could be checked with feeler blades.
> Does anyone know what the spec is? or is enough to say there is a space?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=86856#86856
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Was the blade that departed a GSC?
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> GSC prop.
>
> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed, squished
or
> comprimised.
>
> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at GSC
> and replace those blades.
>
> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>
> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
>
> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want to be
> there when it happens.
>
>
> Dave
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and replaced
the Engine and gear box.
Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not right so he landed
and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me his 503 was about
4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off . Engine did the
boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower cowl which I
repaired as well for him .
Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you a quick page on
the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Was the blade that departed a GSC?
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
>>
>> GSC prop.
>>
>> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed, squished
> or
>> comprimised.
>>
>> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at GSC
>> and replace those blades.
>>
>> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>>
>> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
>>
>> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want to
>> be
>> there when it happens.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Ouch! Now if that won't make you think I don't know
what will.
I have new blades on the way for my GSC. It's 10yrs
old which is about 7 yrs beyond GSC recommendations.
I got my monies worth. It still *appears* in
excellent shape and I do have space in between the
hub halves but $450 for new blades is a lot cheaper
than a 912, 912 mount, or my life (some say anyway)!
I'm seriously thinking I'm gonna add some retention
cables to my engine...
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
<dave@cfisher.com>
>
>Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new
engine mount and replaced
>the Engine and gear box.
>Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed
not right so he landed
>and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He
told me his 503 was about
>4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew
off . Engine did the
>boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the
lower cowl which I
>repaired as well for him .
>
>
>Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i
hade you a quick page on
>the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>
>Dave
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
<fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>>
>> Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>> Deke
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
<dave@cfisher.com>
>>>
>>> GSC prop.
>>>
>>> If there is No space then the blade root ends
have been crushed, squished
>> or
>>> comprimised.
>>>
>>> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but
call Rick Peters at GSC
>>> and replace those blades.
>>>
>>> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>>>
>>> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC
blades at the ROOT .
>>>
>>> I have first hand experience on blade departures
and you do not want to
>>> be
>>> there when it happens.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_-
=====================================================
=====
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
List
>_-
=====================================================
=====
Web Forums!
>_-
=====================================================
=====
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware of, but I don't
travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware of the failure?
Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the factory would
like to have a look at it.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
replaced
> the Engine and gear box.
> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not right so he landed
> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me his 503 was
about
> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off . Engine did the
> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower cowl which I
> repaired as well for him .
>
>
> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you a quick page on
> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
> >
> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
> > Deke
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
> >
> >
> >>
> >> GSC prop.
> >>
> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
squished
> > or
> >> comprimised.
> >>
> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at
GSC
> >> and replace those blades.
> >>
> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
> >>
> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
> >>
> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want to
> >> be
> >> there when it happens.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
I don't have a GSC prop, but his discussion raises a couple of questions.
1) does the GSC blade have a knob at the base to be retained in a similarly
shaped cavity in the hub?
2) If so, and I suppose it does, how can over tourquing result in blade
failure. At first glance, I suspect it would result in an inability to
retain pitch and maybe tracking. And if seriously abused maybe wobble.
I suspect properly torqued prop might vary in tightness due to humidity and
temperatures. With the failed blade mentioned, I doubt it happened solely
because of torquing issues.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware of, but I don't
> travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware of the failure?
> Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the factory would
> like to have a look at it.
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
>>
>> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
> replaced
>> the Engine and gear box.
>> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not right so he landed
>> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me his 503 was
> about
>> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off . Engine did the
>> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower cowl which I
>> repaired as well for him .
>>
>>
>> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you a quick page
>> on
>> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>> > Deke
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> GSC prop.
>> >>
>> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
> squished
>> > or
>> >> comprimised.
>> >>
>> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at
> GSC
>> >> and replace those blades.
>> >>
>> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>> >>
>> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
>> >>
>> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want
>> >> to
>> >> be
>> >> there when it happens.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Norwegian Stalls |
On Jan 9, 2007, at 12:08 AM, dave wrote:
> Michel, I can measure the differance if you like in degrees if you
> let me know.
Yes, please. For your information, in my flight simulator, the
difference between the AoA of the wing and the horizontal stab is 5
degrees i.e. +4 for the wing at the root, and -1 for the stab. The wing
has wash-out, the stab has not. Thanks, Dave!
On Jan 9, 2007, at 12:19 AM, kerrjohna@comcast.net wrote:
> Michael, the maneuver you have described is called "falling leaf".
Hum, I am not sure my stall goes all the way to "falling leaf," John,
because I still have much forward speed but, thank you, "falling leaf"
is a nice and poetic term. :-)
On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:26 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> The reason it doesn't drop straight down is because you've got the
> stick in your lap, the horizontal stab is not stalled,
It makes sense, Guy, but then ... the sound can't be my elevator and
horizontal stab stalling, right?
On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Larry Martin wrote:
> From Micheal's description, I had the impression that he
> thought that the nose dropped because the stab stalled. This is not
> correct. The
> nose drops because the center of pressure on the wing moves forward.
... err, you mean 'move aft' Larry, right? If the center of pressure
moves forward and the CoG stays hopefully the same, the moment is then
to create a nose-up attitude.
This is interesting because years ago, before I started flying for
real, I had that discussion with a flight simulator group where I meant
to center of pressure (a.k.a center of lift) moved back as the plane
slows down, hence the need to pull the stick. My assumption was based
on the fact that a sailboats attempting to sail close to the wind (i.e.
small AoA) needed to pull something called 'Cunningham hole' in order
to make the leading edge stiffer and move the deepest hollow of the
sail more forward - a sail being a "soft" airfoil.
But I was told that the center of lift never moves on a wing, and that
it is usually at about 1/4 of the cord, from the leading edge.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Ted and all, you should also order the newer hub that has one of the prop
bolts going through each blade. I saw some small splits in two of the
blades after about 200 to 300 hours and got all new everything. Now up to
about 500 hours and no problems.
Barry West
----- Original Message -----
From: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Ouch! Now if that won't make you think I don't know
> what will.
>
> I have new blades on the way for my GSC. It's 10yrs
> old which is about 7 yrs beyond GSC recommendations.
> I got my monies worth. It still *appears* in
> excellent shape and I do have space in between the
> hub halves but $450 for new blades is a lot cheaper
> than a 912, 912 mount, or my life (some say anyway)!
>
> I'm seriously thinking I'm gonna add some retention
> cables to my engine...
>
> Regards,
>
> Ted
>
> --- Original Message ---
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> <dave@cfisher.com>
>>
>>Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>>Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new
> engine mount and replaced
>>the Engine and gear box.
>>Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed
> not right so he landed
>>and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He
> told me his 503 was about
>>4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew
> off . Engine did the
>>boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the
> lower cowl which I
>>repaired as well for him .
>>
>>
>>Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i
> hade you a quick page on
>>the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>>http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
> <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>>>
>>> Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>>> Deke
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>>
>>>
> <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>>
>>>> GSC prop.
>>>>
>>>> If there is No space then the blade root ends
> have been crushed, squished
>>> or
>>>> comprimised.
>>>>
>>>> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but
> call Rick Peters at GSC
>>>> and replace those blades.
>>>>
>>>> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>>>>
>>>> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC
> blades at the ROOT .
>>>>
>>>> I have first hand experience on blade departures
> and you do not want to
>>>> be
>>>> there when it happens.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_-
> =====================================================
> =====
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> List
>>_-
> =====================================================
> =====
> Web Forums!
>>_-
> =====================================================
> =====
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Lowell:
The GSC prop has either an aluminium root or an aluminium collar on the
root. They also have a slot cut in them for a retaining bolt that actually
passes right through the blade. They have been known to crack/depart but as
far as I know only after the GSC recommended TBO. That is 5 yr or 500Hr.
Which ever occurs first. I'm sure many are in service a lot longer than
that.
I first flew my plane on a 15 yr. old three blade GSC prop that only had the
high side of 100 hr. on it. I contacted GSC and the rep on the phone
recommended that I not fly the blades.. He offered me a pretty good
discount on a new set of blades which were in stock.
I went with the Ivo because I wanted the in flight adjustable. The GSC
adjustable which I think is a superior unit unfortunately won't fit on my
"B" box.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 3:23 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I don't have a GSC prop, but his discussion raises a couple
> of questions.
>
> 1) does the GSC blade have a knob at the base to be retained
> in a similarly
> shaped cavity in the hub?
>
> 2) If so, and I suppose it does, how can over tourquing
> result in blade
> failure. At first glance, I suspect it would result in an
> inability to
> retain pitch and maybe tracking. And if seriously abused
> maybe wobble.
>
> I suspect properly torqued prop might vary in tightness due
> to humidity and
> temperatures. With the failed blade mentioned, I doubt it
> happened solely
> because of torquing issues.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
> <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> >
> > Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware
> of, but I don't
> > travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware
> of the failure?
> > Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the
> factory would
> > like to have a look at it.
> > Deke
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
> >> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
> > replaced
> >> the Engine and gear box.
> >> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not
> right so he landed
> >> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me
> his 503 was
> > about
> >> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off .
> Engine did the
> >> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower
> cowl which I
> >> repaired as well for him .
> >>
> >>
> >> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you
> a quick page
> >> on
> >> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
> >> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
> >>
> >>
> <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> >> >
> >> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
> >> > Deke
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> >> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> GSC prop.
> >> >>
> >> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
> > squished
> >> > or
> >> >> comprimised.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call
> Rick Peters at
> > GSC
> >> >> and replace those blades.
> >> >>
> >> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
> >> >>
> >> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades
> at the ROOT .
> >> >>
> >> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and
> you do not want
> >> >> to
> >> >> be
> >> >> there when it happens.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dave
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Lowell and all, I believe the older props actually had the hub squeezing the
base of the wood blades.
for the newer ones and the one I now have the base end of the blades sit in
an aluminum cylinder with grooves machined in them and a hole, actually a
slot, through them. One of the hub bolts goes through the slot in the
aluminum and through the wood. Torqueing the bolts squeezes the aluminum
base. It would not be impossible for a blade to break anyway but careful
inspection during preflight looking for any small splits or other problems
should go a long way toward preventing unexpected failure.
Barry West
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> I don't have a GSC prop, but his discussion raises a couple of questions.
>
> 1) does the GSC blade have a knob at the base to be retained in a
> similarly shaped cavity in the hub?
>
> 2) If so, and I suppose it does, how can over tourquing result in blade
> failure. At first glance, I suspect it would result in an inability to
> retain pitch and maybe tracking. And if seriously abused maybe wobble.
>
> I suspect properly torqued prop might vary in tightness due to humidity
> and temperatures. With the failed blade mentioned, I doubt it happened
> solely because of torquing issues.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
>>
>> Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware of, but I don't
>> travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware of the
>> failure?
>> Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the factory would
>> like to have a look at it.
>> Deke
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>>> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
>> replaced
>>> the Engine and gear box.
>>> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not right so he
>>> landed
>>> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me his 503 was
>> about
>>> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off . Engine did the
>>> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower cowl which I
>>> repaired as well for him .
>>>
>>>
>>> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you a quick page
>>> on
>>> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>>> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>>> > Deke
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> GSC prop.
>>> >>
>>> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
>> squished
>>> > or
>>> >> comprimised.
>>> >>
>>> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at
>> GSC
>>> >> and replace those blades.
>>> >>
>>> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>>> >>
>>> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
>>> >>
>>> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want
>>> >> to
>>> >> be
>>> >> there when it happens.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Dave
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | : Over-torqued GSC Prop - prop failure - deadsticking |
Noel,
Are you saying the GSC Wood blades have a aluminum collar on the root ?
I posted some pics earlier of a "departed " GSC wood blade here
http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
I personally had a GSC blade that was over 10 years old last year that had
started to delaminate . I should try to find those pics and post them for
you to see. I was flying with it and had no issues but I called up GSC and
got 3 more just in case.
Now that being said, I will tell you that I think GSC has a die that they
insert the root end into and injects a urethane into it that forms the root
end . Same goes for the urethane leading edge.
Also, I rec'd some info a week ago that a IVO had departed inflight
recently. I will hopefully get some more info on it. But apparently all
that was left of the one blade was the steel torsion bar inside the blade
that flew apart. It was a IVO Ultralight prop and not a Medium IVO.
So I guess it good to know that deadsticking is a Very Good thing to
practice as a blade departure will not only rattle you are it explodes with
what seems like a sonic boom and your windshield blows out , doors blow
open, dash falls onto lap and engine tears apart your cowl and firewall as
the 4130 engine mount self destructs and the engine hangs by the fuel lines
and rad hoses ( except Jabs, lycoming and continentals ) I guess those
water cooled engines do have a benefit that has not been discussed ? :-)
Here is a dead stick of a Kitfox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm1iqcn8nFM
No one is immune from a prop failure. NO ONE !!
Also - I recommend that all planes have a safety cable that secures the
engine to the airframe. Mine is 1/8 cable attached to 2 places on engine
as and through firewall and around a few different fuselage tubes. If you
engine departs, well your C- G calculations will be useless and most likely
your elevator as well .
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Lowell:
>
> The GSC prop has either an aluminium root or an aluminium collar on the
> root. They also have a slot cut in them for a retaining bolt that
> actually
> passes right through the blade. They have been known to crack/depart but
> as
> far as I know only after the GSC recommended TBO. That is 5 yr or 500Hr.
> Which ever occurs first. I'm sure many are in service a lot longer than
> that.
>
> I first flew my plane on a 15 yr. old three blade GSC prop that only had
> the
> high side of 100 hr. on it. I contacted GSC and the rep on the phone
> recommended that I not fly the blades.. He offered me a pretty good
> discount on a new set of blades which were in stock.
>
> I went with the Ivo because I wanted the in flight adjustable. The GSC
> adjustable which I think is a superior unit unfortunately won't fit on my
> "B" box.
>
> Noel
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Lowell Fitt
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 3:23 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> I don't have a GSC prop, but his discussion raises a couple
>> of questions.
>>
>> 1) does the GSC blade have a knob at the base to be retained
>> in a similarly
>> shaped cavity in the hub?
>>
>> 2) If so, and I suppose it does, how can over tourquing
>> result in blade
>> failure. At first glance, I suspect it would result in an
>> inability to
>> retain pitch and maybe tracking. And if seriously abused
>> maybe wobble.
>>
>> I suspect properly torqued prop might vary in tightness due
>> to humidity and
>> temperatures. With the failed blade mentioned, I doubt it
>> happened solely
>> because of torquing issues.
>>
>> Lowell
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
>> <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> >
>> > Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware
>> of, but I don't
>> > travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware
>> of the failure?
>> > Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the
>> factory would
>> > like to have a look at it.
>> > Deke
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>> >> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
>> > replaced
>> >> the Engine and gear box.
>> >> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not
>> right so he landed
>> >> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me
>> his 503 was
>> > about
>> >> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off .
>> Engine did the
>> >> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower
>> cowl which I
>> >> repaired as well for him .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you
>> a quick page
>> >> on
>> >> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>> >> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>> >>
>> >>
>> <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> >> >
>> >> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>> >> > Deke
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> >> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>> >> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> GSC prop.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
>> > squished
>> >> > or
>> >> >> comprimised.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call
>> Rick Peters at
>> > GSC
>> >> >> and replace those blades.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades
>> at the ROOT .
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and
>> you do not want
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> there when it happens.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dave
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Norwegian Stalls |
Michel ,
I did measure it a few days ago and off the top of my head both
measurements were the same .
I measured the horiz stab in a few places and measured the bar between the
2 wing struts that runs parallel to the bottom of wing approx.
Both were about the same -wing strut and bottom of the wing as well as the
horizontal stab.
Now Like I said when floats go on I drop the front of the horiz.stab about
a inch at the front and that seems to compensate for the extra drag of the
floats. I would only guess that that would be a few degrees difference then
between the wing and horiz.stab.
Understand that mumble jumble ?
I can measure better tomorrow.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Norwegian Stalls
On Jan 9, 2007, at 12:08 AM, dave wrote:
> Michel, I can measure the differance if you like in degrees if you let me
> know.
Yes, please. For your information, in my flight simulator, the
difference between the AoA of the wing and the horizontal stab is 5
degrees i.e. +4 for the wing at the root, and -1 for the stab. The wing
has wash-out, the stab has not. Thanks, Dave!
On Jan 9, 2007, at 12:19 AM, kerrjohna@comcast.net wrote:
> Michael, the maneuver you have described is called "falling leaf".
Hum, I am not sure my stall goes all the way to "falling leaf," John,
because I still have much forward speed but, thank you, "falling leaf"
is a nice and poetic term. :-)
On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:26 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> The reason it doesn't drop straight down is because you've got the stick
> in your lap, the horizontal stab is not stalled,
It makes sense, Guy, but then ... the sound can't be my elevator and
horizontal stab stalling, right?
On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Larry Martin wrote:
> From Micheal's description, I had the impression that he
> thought that the nose dropped because the stab stalled. This is not
> correct. The
> nose drops because the center of pressure on the wing moves forward.
... err, you mean 'move aft' Larry, right? If the center of pressure
moves forward and the CoG stays hopefully the same, the moment is then
to create a nose-up attitude.
This is interesting because years ago, before I started flying for
real, I had that discussion with a flight simulator group where I meant
to center of pressure (a.k.a center of lift) moved back as the plane
slows down, hence the need to pull the stick. My assumption was based
on the fact that a sailboats attempting to sail close to the wind (i.e.
small AoA) needed to pull something called 'Cunningham hole' in order
to make the leading edge stiffer and move the deepest hollow of the
sail more forward - a sail being a "soft" airfoil.
But I was told that the center of lift never moves on a wing, and that
it is usually at about 1/4 of the cord, from the leading edge.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop |
Yes , GSC was told ands got pics.
said he never seen that before. > for what that is worth <
I am not sure that this one was ever over torques Deke, you can see by the
pics http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
that the alum. block have a "healthy gap" and I know that the owner is very
aware and has built a close to 25 planes now .
I would rule it out to age, moisture fatigue and just bad luck. Now if it
was new well I would lean more on GSC.
That prop I think had over 300 or 400 hours on it and over 10 years for
sure.
Dave
FYI I would not condemn your GSC prop over this kinda stuff but I would
certainly make sure that you keep an eye on the condition, time of service
in years as well as hours running time . I think GSC says 500 hours or 5
years ? Over all GSC props do work well I find. Those videos I did in
snow and short take offs and deadsticking in the last month was all on a
GSC.
A few more below,
Here is another GSC problem
http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/gsc_servicebulletin.htm
another one ( good read )
http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/gscbladeshed2.pdf
The problem covered in those issues related to failure of wooden blades at
the glue line adjacent
to the socket and possible crushing of the blade root from deterioration or
over tightening of the
bolts resulting in degraded clamping of the blade. This was aggravated by
deterioration of the
wood from moisture.
A further (very well compiled) report of blade shedding has been received,
this time involving a
three bladed wooden GSC propeller fitted to a 912 powered Lightwing. The
owner was
experimenting with methods of improving engine power output and he had
achieved an RPM
increase from 5,600 to 5,800 RPM on climb. On levelling at 1,000ft, there
was an almighty bang
and the motor stopped immediately. The aircraft was landed safely and
subsequent inspection
revealed that all three blades had parted company with the hub.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
> Thanks Dave. That's the first failed GSC that I'm aware of, but I don't
> travel much outside this list. Was the factory made aware of the failure?
> Are you sure it was caused by over torqueing? I'm sure the factory would
> like to have a look at it.
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>
>
>>
>> Yes -- A wooden GSC I saw last year .
>> Was near me but not me. I welded him up a new engine mount and
> replaced
>> the Engine and gear box.
>> Luckily he took off as normal but something seemed not right so he landed
>> and was taxing up to hangar when it departed. He told me his 503 was
> about
>> 4000 rpm max as he taxied up and BOOM blade flew off . Engine did the
>> boogie -ripped the engine mount apart and broke the lower cowl which I
>> repaired as well for him .
>>
>>
>> Deke , you justd got me busy fora minute :) i hade you a quick page
>> on
>> the GSC Wooden Blade that Departed
>> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Was the blade that departed a GSC?
>> > Deke
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:57 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Over-torqued GSC Prop
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> GSC prop.
>> >>
>> >> If there is No space then the blade root ends have been crushed,
> squished
>> > or
>> >> comprimised.
>> >>
>> >> I would strongly suggest that you not shim it but call Rick Peters at
> GSC
>> >> and replace those blades.
>> >>
>> >> Did some one say GSC said to shim them ?
>> >>
>> >> If interested I will post you pics of broken GSC blades at the ROOT .
>> >>
>> >> I have first hand experience on blade departures and you do not want
>> >> to
>> >> be
>> >> there when it happens.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Norwegian Stalls |
At 11:27 AM 1/11/2007, you wrote:
>It makes sense, Guy, but then ... the sound can't be my elevator and
>horizontal stab stalling, right?
No. I think the sound is fabric slapping against the wing tanks.
>On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Larry Martin wrote:
> From Micheal's description, I had the impression that he
>thought that the nose dropped because the stab stalled. This is not
>correct. The
>nose drops because the center of pressure on the wing moves forward.
>
>... err, you mean 'move aft' Larry, right? If the center of pressure
>moves forward and the CoG stays hopefully the same, the moment is then
>to create a nose-up attitude.
>This is interesting because years ago, before I started flying for
>real, I had that discussion with a flight simulator group where I meant
>to center of pressure (a.k.a center of lift) moved back as the plane
>slows down, hence the need to pull the stick. My assumption was based
>on the fact that a sailboats attempting to sail close to the wind (i.e.
>small AoA) needed to pull something called 'Cunningham hole' in order
>to make the leading edge stiffer and move the deepest hollow of the
>sail more forward - a sail being a "soft" airfoil.
>But I was told that the center of lift never moves on a wing, and that
>it is usually at about 1/4 of the cord, from the leading edge.
Yes and No. You were correct in stating that the SYSTEM Cl moves back,
whereas the wing Cl remains constant before stall. (It moves after stall,
quite dramatically.) The reason the SYSTEM Cl moves back when you slow is
that down force on the tail diminishes as you slow, (remember lift is
proportional to the square of the velocity,) whereas the pitch moment due
to mass remains constant. You balance the mass pitch moment by increasing
the tail's down force by pulling the elevator up, increasing the tail's
negative Cl in direct proportion to the reduction in the square of the
velocity.
Too confusing. Try this. I have a "wing" with 40 units of lift. 10 length
units behind that "wing" I have a "tail" flying along with -4 units of
lift. (It lifts down.) To balance this system my "airplane" weighs 36 units
and it's CG is 1.11 length units in front of the "wing". Now I
instantaneously slow by half. My "wing" and "tail" lift reduce to 10 and -1
units respectively. (Lift is proportional to the square of the velocity.)
However the weight is still 36 at 1.11 in front of the wing. Now there is a
30 unit moment pitching down. To counteract that I have to increase the
"tail" lift back to -4 units. I therefore have to quadruple the Cl by
pulling the elevator up. I then have 10 units of lift on the "wing", -4
units of lift on the "tail", and 36 units of weight 1.11 in front of the
wing. The system balances about the wing, but I have 36 units of weight
versus 14 units of lift and so am accelerating down quite rapidly. (I'll
accelerate down until the increased wing angle of attack (Cl) and the
increased velocity bring the "wing" lift back to 40 units.) Note that with
a "wing" lift of 10 and a "tail" lift of -4, the SYSTEM Cl is
instantaneously quite far aft of what it was at equilibrium, when the
"wing" lift was 40.
There. Clear as mud.
Guy
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