Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:19 AM - Re: Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Geir_Olav_=D8ien?=)
2. 04:42 AM - Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews (n61kf)
3. 05:07 AM - Rust behind battery tray (colind)
4. 07:48 AM - Re: Rust behind battery tray (paul wilson)
5. 09:27 AM - Tuning a KitFox Airframe (Nick Scholtes)
6. 10:11 AM - Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe (Michel Verheughe)
7. 11:31 AM - Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe (Joel)
8. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Torgeir Mortensen)
9. 12:32 PM - Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
10. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
11. 12:52 PM - Wheel skis (Larry Martin)
12. 12:57 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Torgeir Mortensen)
13. 01:31 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Michel Verheughe)
14. 01:57 PM - Dynon D100 or D120 WANTED for Purchase (RRTRACK@aol.com)
15. 02:06 PM - Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe (kitfoxmike)
16. 02:12 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (W Duke)
17. 02:58 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (kitfoxmike)
18. 03:24 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Bradley Webb)
19. 03:57 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Guy Buchanan)
20. 06:01 PM - Re: Rust behind battery tray (jeff puls)
21. 10:16 PM - Re: Fuel Flow, continued. (Lowell Fitt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews |
I am finishing a Kitfox IV (partly built by previous owner) and i had to
drill 3 of the holes in my rims (3 of the holes was drilled by skystar for
alignment as i understood) so try to buy the rims without holes, you can
drill it or a machine shop can do it easely.
Geir Olav (Norway)
----- Original Message -----
From: "john perry" <eskflyer@lvcisp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews
>
> Douglas does not sell a six hole rim . the only thing to buy is the 8x8 ,
> 3 hole at 90 mm and jig up and drill the other holes yourself , and weld
> on the mounting lugs for the brake rotors . these rims are sold in 10
> different hole styles but NO 6 HOLE .
>
> John Perry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews
>
>
>>
>> REx, I have been looking at the dougles site and am a bit confused as
>> all their wheels seem to be four lug. Mine are six lug. Can you help?
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: King Fox tire reviewsKing Fox tire reviews |
Rims are still available and its very easy to tig on the mounting lugs for the
rotors
John, I have question on this. The lugs appear to be a custom machined part. Then
most likley were remachined after welding to the rim to assure proper alignment.
Am I correct? or is in easier than that. I am instered in putting together
a spare set of rims, and want to benifit from prior experence
Keith
--------
Keith
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89706#89706
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| Subject: | Rust behind battery tray |
After many delays, I am finally ready to put the fabric on the KF4. I just need
another inspection to be done by our local RAAus inspector, and that's booked
for next Monday. I can't believe that its taken so long to get to this point
(its been 18mths since we brought the part finished kit home).
The last job I did in preparation for the inspection, was to remove the old rear-mounted
battery tray. The tray had been welded in place at the factory, between
three braces on the right side of the fuselage. There were two small weld
beads on each side of each brace, which I cut through using a very fine cutting
disk.
The fuselage had been powder-coated at the factory.
After removing the tray, I noticed that both the tray and the three braces showed
significant rust where they touched. The powder coating had not penetrated
or sealed those contact points, hence the surface was left unprotected, and oxidation
had started. The surface of the braces was pitted. Had I not discovered
this, the rust would have continued to the piont at which the integrity of these
braces may have been compromised. The kit had been stored for many years
in a very dry location prior to our purchasing it, hence this limited the progress
of the oxidation. Once the aircraft began operations however, the amoint
of moisture able to get into thease areas would have been much higher, so I believe
that the speed of oxidation would have increased significantly and, because
of its location, would not have been easily noticed.
I suggest that anyone with a battery tray that has been welded in place at the
factory, especially if their fuselage was also powder-coated, should check the
brace contact points closely. Standard spray painting would not guarantee that
these areas were properly coated either, due to their akward position.
The rust shown on the battery tray edge in photo #0121 is similar, but slightly
less than what I found on the brace where the tray contacted it. Sorry, but by
the time I thought of getting the camera, I had already cleaned and primed the
brace tubes.
Regards
Colin Durey
Sydney - Australia
+61-418-677073
--------
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89710#89710
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0123_890.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0121_121.jpg
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| Subject: | Rust behind battery tray |
Two ways to prevent rust in this location. 1) Use the plastic box in the kit which
has a closely fitting top with a vent to relocate the fumes from a flooded
cell battery. 2) Use a sealed battery. The sealed battery is especially good
as they use a plastic case which does not let battery vapors out from inside the
battery. In this case the Skystar plastic box is not necessary.
In any case a small amount of rubber vetween the battery or plastic box will keep
the paint from wearing off due to vibration.
Of course if you are criticizing the weld integrity then all the welds would be
subject to similar corrosion. I dont think the batt tray is peculiar to bad welds
where paint that did not seal the weld. Anyway It is my belief that battery
vapors is the root cause of corrosion. Otherwise other welds would have the
same problem.
BTW, Powder coating will not cover a weld defect. Any significant pin holes or
cracks would not be sealed by the process.
Regards, Paul
==============
After many delays, I am finally ready to put the fabric on the KF4. I just need
another inspection to be done by our local RAAus inspector, and that's booked
for next Monday. I can't believe that its taken so long to get to this point
(its been 18mths since we brought the part finished kit home).
The last job I did in preparation for the inspection, was to remove the old rear-mounted
battery tray. The tray had been welded in place at the factory, between
three braces on the right side of the fuselage. There were two small weld
beads on each side of each brace, which I cut through using a very fine cutting
disk.
The fuselage had been powder-coated at the factory.
After removing the tray, I noticed that both the tray and the three braces showed
significant rust where they touched. The powder coating had not penetrated
or sealed those contact points, hence the surface was left unprotected, and oxidation
had started. The surface of the braces was pitted. Had I not discovered
this, the rust would have continued to the piont at which the integrity of these
braces may have been compromised. The kit had been stored for many years
in a very dry location prior to our purchasing it, hence this limited the progress
of the oxidation. Once the aircraft began operations however, the amoint
of moisture able to get into thease areas would have been much higher, so I believe
that the speed of oxidation would have increased significantly and, because
of its location, would not have been easily noticed.
I suggest that anyone with a battery tray that has been welded in place at the
factory, especially if their fuselage was also powder-coated, should check the
brace contact points closely. Standard spray painting would not guarantee that
these areas were properly coated either, due to their akward position.
The rust shown on the battery tray edge in photo #0121 is similar, but slightly
less than what I found on the brace where the tray contacted it. Sorry, but by
the time I thought of getting the camera, I had already cleaned and primed the
brace tubes.
Regards
Colin Durey
Sydney - Australia
+61-418-677073
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0123_890.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0121_121.jpg
_________________________________
SISNA...more service, less money.
http://www.sisna.com/exclusive/
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| Subject: | Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
Hi Guys!
I just recently purchased a KitFox Model IV Speedster, and flew it home
half-way across the country. During the flight, the airplane handled
really well, I was totally impressed with how well it flew! Awesome!
But, it has a tendency to gently roll to the left, and I want to make
appropriate adjustments so that it will fly straight. In totally smooth
air, trimmed out straight and level in cruise, if you let go of the
stick, it will slowly and gently roll to the left.
My instinct is to adjust the flaperon. But, I've also heard of making
adjustments to the wing strut that connects to the leading edge, and
also to the stabilizer with the adjustable rod end.
So, what are the various "tweak" adjustments that are available on the
Model IV, and what do each one of them do?
Thanks!
Nick Scholtes
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| Subject: | Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
> From: Nick Scholtes [Nick@Scholtes1.com]
> So, what are the various "tweak" adjustments that are available on the
> Model IV, and what do each one of them do?
Hello Nick,
My model 3 does the same, only in the other direction. To compensate, I fixed a
small aluminum tab near the root of the flaperon, on the left side (right side,
for you) slightly bent down. It did perfectly the work.
I am also considering adjusting the struts. But, prior to that, I want to know
exactly what is the angle of incidence of the wings at the root and at the tips.
(Note: I did't built the plane myself). To do that measurement, I intend to
do it with a water hose, paper and arc tangent table. I haven't done it yet because
... it's too cold outside and when it isn't, I'd rather be flying than
measuring ... (I have a bag full of excuses, if you want!) :-)
Anyway, if you decide to give a turn at your strut turnbuckles, let us know how
much and how it went, I am interested.
Cheers,
Michel
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
During phase 1 testing I found that the slight right roll tendency at low speeds
became much more noticeable as the airspeed increased. After consulting with
a very experienced A&P friend I adjusted the left trailing edge lift strut out
2 turns. The right turn tendency is greatly reduced but still noticeable above
80mph. He suggests turning in the left leading edge lift strut 1 turn. I'll
report my findings.
--------
Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89820#89820
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
God kveld Michel,
The drawing went through just fine, -but sometimes "Cyber Space" can
play..
I'll promptly send off list to you.
Torgeir.
do not archive
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:12:32 +0100, Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:00 PM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
>> This next one drawing show the same system with a missing left fuel
>> cap; Fuel_2.jpg
>
> Torgeir, your second drawing comes as a corrupted file on my computer.
> Could you check and send it again, please?
>
> Med vennlig hilsen,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
check the archives about 60 days ago. there was a lengthy discussion on the tweaking
of the struts. I can give you a detailed explanation if you want to email
me direct. if you opt for an aileron tweak it will a require a tab of some
kind attached to one of the ailerons to force it down or else the will fly normally
and you will find that the stick has moved.
I found the process very rewarding. It really made the notion of understanding
the rigging a an airplane come alive for me.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Nick Scholtes <Nick@Scholtes1.com>
>
> Hi Guys!
>
> I just recently purchased a KitFox Model IV Speedster, and flew it home
> half-way across the country. During the flight, the airplane handled
> really well, I was totally impressed with how well it flew! Awesome!
>
> But, it has a tendency to gently roll to the left, and I want to make
> appropriate adjustments so that it will fly straight. In totally smooth
> air, trimmed out straight and level in cruise, if you let go of the
> stick, it will slowly and gently roll to the left.
>
> My instinct is to adjust the flaperon. But, I've also heard of making
> adjustments to the wing strut that connects to the leading edge, and
> also to the stabilizer with the adjustable rod end.
>
> So, what are the various "tweak" adjustments that are available on the
> Model IV, and what do each one of them do?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Nick Scholtes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>check the archives about 60 days ago. there was a lengthy discussion
on the tweaking of the struts. I can give you a detailed explanation if
you want to email me direct. if you opt for an aileron tweak it will a
require a tab of some kind attached to one of the ailerons to force it down or
else the will fly normally and you will find that the stick has moved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I found the process very rewarding. It really made the notion of understanding
the rigging a an airplane come alive for me.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kerr</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Nick Scholtes
<Nick@Scholtes1.com> <BR><BR>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
Nick Scholtes <NICK@SCHOLTES1.COM><BR>> <BR>> Hi Guys! <BR>> <BR>>
I just recently purchased a KitFox Model IV Speedster, and flew it home <BR>>
half-way across the country. During the flight, the airplane handled <BR>>
really well, I was totally impressed with how well it flew! Awesome! <BR>>
<BR>> But, it has a tendency to gently roll to the left, and I want to
make <BR>> appropriate adjustments so that it will fly straight. In totally
smooth <BR>> air, trimmed out straight and level in cruise, if you let go
of the <BR>> stick, it will slowly and gently roll to the left. <BR>>
<BR>> My instinct is to adjust the flaperon. But, I've also heard of making
<BR>> adjustments to the wing strut that connects
to th
======================================================== <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
there can be many factors in the turning tendancy, including dihedral not equal
as relates to fuselage and horizontal stab. Before beginning the process level
the fuselage in both axes. Then measure dihedral, a digital level really helps.
Check the horizontal stab for level as well. Finally up on one side front
or rear to maintain dihedral and accomplish trim. Test fly between adjustments.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Joel" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>
> During phase 1 testing I found that the slight right roll tendency at low speeds
> became much more noticeable as the airspeed increased. After consulting with
a
> very experienced A&P friend I adjusted the left trailing edge lift strut out
2
> turns. The right turn tendency is greatly reduced but still noticeable above
> 80mph. He suggests turning in the left leading edge lift strut 1 turn. I'll
> report my findings.
>
> --------
> Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89820#89820
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>there can be many factors in the turning tendancy, including dihedral not
equal as relates to fuselage and horizontal stab. Before beginning the process
level the fuselage in both axes. Then measure dihedral, a digital
level really helps. Check the horizontal stab for level as well. Finally up on
one side front or rear to maintain dihedral and accomplish trim. Test
fly between adjustments.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kerr</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Joel" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com> <BR><BR>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel" <FOXFLOATFLYER@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>> <BR>> During phase 1 testing I found that the slight right roll tendency at low speeds <BR>> became much more noticeable as the airspeed increased. After consulting with a <BR>> very experienced A&P friend I adjusted the left trailing edge lift strut out 2 <BR>> turns. The right turn tendency is greatly reduced but still noticeable above <BR>> 80mph. He suggests turning in the left leading edge lift strut 1 turn. I'll <BR>> report my findings. <BR>> <BR>> -------- <BR>> Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Read this topic online here: <BR>> <BR>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89820#89820 <BR>> <B
R>>
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It just dawned on me that Steve with the Avid group had penetration ski
kits to sell. I'm not advertising, just letting you know.
larry
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
Hi Graeme, Robert, Guy, Alan and all,
Thanks for the positive response.
Will look more closely at valves etc. next time..
In the mean time, let's assume that we "loose" our right wing tank cap
(the left one is tight and in place).
Would it make any difference in this case?
Can we do anything about the situ?
Take care.
Torgeir.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:33:53 +0100, QSS <msm@byterocky.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this excellent description Togier. The senario you described
> is exactly what caused my engine failure.
>
> Regards
> Graeme Toft
>
> Do not archive
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torgeir Mortensen"
> <torgemor@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:00 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow, continued.
>
>
>> The Kitfox tank system with two wing tanks and one header tank, is using
>> both the head pressure and the gravity to ensure adequate fuel pressure
>> for our engine.
>>
>> At first this might seem simple and easy, -but is it?
>>
>> Let's have a look at the system as it is today; with two wing tanks, the
>> previous wing tank valves removed and the header vented to the right
>> tank.
>>
>> Now, can you see that the header tank is filled by the gravity only??
>>
>> If everything is as it "should" be this system will work fine.
>>
>> Here is a principle drawing of a "normal" working system; Fuel_1.jpg
>>
>> However, what will happen and how -if we forgot to install one of the
>> tank
>> cap (let's assume the left) ?
>>
>> OK., everyone know that our tank will start loosing fuel, but how?
>> Well,
>> remember that our right tank is at "static pressure", in addition it is
>> pressurized "a little" by the head pressure entering through our "vent"
>> line installed in the fuel cap.
>>
>> So here's a pressure difference of approx.: (0.2 - 0.3) psi air pressure
>> between each wing tank, the high pressure is in the right tank,
>> therefore
>> fuel transfer from right to the left tank will take place.
>>
>> You see, here the left tank will continue overfill until the right tank
>> is
>> empty. After the right tank is exhausted, the level in the header will
>> decrease to the "height" position of the input line coming from left
>> main
>> tank.
>>
>> Now, we'll have a continuos airflow from right to the left main
>> preventing
>> much fuel from the left tank to flow into the header, soon the header is
>> empty -and the engine stop.
>>
>> This next one drawing show the same system with a missing left fuel cap;
>> Fuel_2.jpg
>>
>> Next time (in a couple of days), we'll have a look at other and more
>> interesting failure modes in this same system, and later on the old
>> system...
>>
>>
>>
>> Torgeir
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
> The drawing went through just fine, -but sometimes "Cyber Space" can
> play..
Yes, it does, sometimes, Torgeir. I got it off-list and it's just fine,
thank you.
What I find interesting is that your drawing is a true copy of my fuel
supply system. It confirms again that the original builder of my plane
(not the one I bought it from) Harald Lien from Stranda (Molde
flyklubb) did a fantastic job at building it - by the book. Ever since
I have been on this list, reading all the good tips from builders, I
see that Harald knew them already in the period 1991-93, when he built
my plane. She is beautiful, what we call in Norwegian: en klenodium - a
jewel.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
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| Subject: | Dynon D100 or D120 WANTED for Purchase |
Looking for Dynon D100, D120, or D180 that is for sale. Please e-mail
directly off list.
Thanks,
Mark
_RRTRACK@AOL.COM_ (mailto:RRTRACK@AOL.COM)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: Tuning a KitFox Airframe |
First thing is make sure the rudder isn't the problem. Level flight at cruise,
center the ball. If it still has a drop on the left, just do what I did and turn
out the left front strut one to two turns. First make sure you have plenty
of threads on the strut end. Many say to adjust to back not the front. I had
a small roll to the left and just adjusted the left front strut, I think that
one is much easier to do. That's probably why I did that one, ya, yup, that
was why. I didn't have a noticable change in the stall or anything else on
the aircraft. I also am not your everyday flier, So far this year I have over
120 landings and 15 flights, with short approaches a norm, slips a norm, slowing
to 50mph and turning base so fast and steep, well I make that corner a good
one. Like I said, a couple turns means nothing.
--------
kitfoxmike
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89875#89875
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
I once let myself get distracted while fueling. I put the right cap on backward.
( I twist by the cap not the tube). About 40 minutes later rpm dropped on
the IO240. I had noticed the fuel seeming to drain from the left only and faster
than normal but I had been turning and such. I was at the point of watching
closely. Shortly after the rpm drop from 2550 to around 1800 ( I think)
I turned on the boost pump and all seemed well. Our destination was only another
5 minutes. A run up on the ground before shut down obviously seemed well
also. I wish the caps only would go on one way.
Maxwell
Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
The Kitfox tank system with two wing tanks and one header tank, is using
both the head pressure and the gravity to ensure adequate fuel pressure
for our engine.
At first this might seem simple and easy, -but is it?
Let's have a look at the system as it is today; with two wing tanks, the
previous wing tank valves removed and the header vented to the right tank.
Now, can you see that the header tank is filled by the gravity only??
If everything is as it "should" be this system will work fine.
Here is a principle drawing of a "normal" working system; Fuel_1.jpg
However, what will happen and how -if we forgot to install one of the tank
cap (let's assume the left) ?
OK., everyone know that our tank will start loosing fuel, but how? Well,
remember that our right tank is at "static pressure", in addition it is
pressurized "a little" by the head pressure entering through our "vent"
line installed in the fuel cap.
So here's a pressure difference of approx.: (0.2 - 0.3) psi air pressure
between each wing tank, the high pressure is in the right tank, therefore
fuel transfer from right to the left tank will take place.
You see, here the left tank will continue overfill until the right tank is
empty. After the right tank is exhausted, the level in the header will
decrease to the "height" position of the input line coming from left main
tank.
Now, we'll have a continuos airflow from right to the left main preventing
much fuel from the left tank to flow into the header, soon the header is
empty -and the engine stop.
This next one drawing show the same system with a missing left fuel cap;
Fuel_2.jpg
Next time (in a couple of days), we'll have a look at other and more
interesting failure modes in this same system, and later on the old
system...
Torgeir
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
Those tubes are one tough cookie, just install the caps by the tubes, after awhile
that will feel comfortable and you will never put them on backwards again.
I also have a preflight that just before getting in the plane, period, I put
my fingers on the tube of each cap and push up and down to make sure they are
seated. There has been a couple times that I forgot to put a cap on after fueling
and this habbit found the cap off.
--------
kitfoxmike
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89887#89887
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
I set my system up as two totally seperate, redundant systems. I have no
interconnect between tanks. I installed a left-off-right valve, so that if
one tank fouls, my emergency procedure is exactly as I learned in gen av -
switch tanks, or go back to the good one if I already switched.
My header is my lifeline. It's a closed system with a level light. If the
wing tanks stop feeding for any reason, the light goes on. I purge the tank
with a vent overboard, and if 5 minutes pass and it's still on, I land and
solve the problem. The header alone will sustain 30 minutes of flight at
2gph. I figure I can get somewhere in that time.
No interconnect means that one fouled vent or cap off will not affect the
other in any way. The chances of both caps being off are possible, and both
vents plugging up are nil. It's redundancy.
Bradley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow, continued.
> <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Graeme, Robert, Guy, Alan and all,
>
> Thanks for the positive response.
>
> Will look more closely at valves etc. next time..
>
> In the mean time, let's assume that we "loose" our right wing tank cap
> (the left one is tight and in place).
>
> Would it make any difference in this case?
>
> Can we do anything about the situ?
>
> Take care.
>
> Torgeir.
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:33:53 +0100, QSS <msm@byterocky.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for this excellent description Togier. The senario you described
>> is exactly what caused my engine failure.
>>
>> Regards
>> Graeme Toft
>>
>> Do not archive
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torgeir Mortensen"
>> <torgemor@online.no>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:00 AM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow, continued.
>>
>>
>>> The Kitfox tank system with two wing tanks and one header tank, is using
>>> both the head pressure and the gravity to ensure adequate fuel pressure
>>> for our engine.
>>>
>>> At first this might seem simple and easy, -but is it?
>>>
>>> Let's have a look at the system as it is today; with two wing tanks, the
>>> previous wing tank valves removed and the header vented to the right
>>> tank.
>>>
>>> Now, can you see that the header tank is filled by the gravity only??
>>>
>>> If everything is as it "should" be this system will work fine.
>>>
>>> Here is a principle drawing of a "normal" working system; Fuel_1.jpg
>>>
>>> However, what will happen and how -if we forgot to install one of the
>>> tank
>>> cap (let's assume the left) ?
>>>
>>> OK., everyone know that our tank will start loosing fuel, but how?
>>> Well,
>>> remember that our right tank is at "static pressure", in addition it is
>>> pressurized "a little" by the head pressure entering through our "vent"
>>> line installed in the fuel cap.
>>>
>>> So here's a pressure difference of approx.: (0.2 - 0.3) psi air pressure
>>> between each wing tank, the high pressure is in the right tank,
>>> therefore
>>> fuel transfer from right to the left tank will take place.
>>>
>>> You see, here the left tank will continue overfill until the right tank
>>> is
>>> empty. After the right tank is exhausted, the level in the header will
>>> decrease to the "height" position of the input line coming from left
>>> main
>>> tank.
>>>
>>> Now, we'll have a continuos airflow from right to the left main
>>> preventing
>>> much fuel from the left tank to flow into the header, soon the header is
>>> empty -and the engine stop.
>>>
>>> This next one drawing show the same system with a missing left fuel cap;
>>> Fuel_2.jpg
>>>
>>> Next time (in a couple of days), we'll have a look at other and more
>>> interesting failure modes in this same system, and later on the old
>>> system...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Torgeir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
At 12:56 PM 1/23/2007, you wrote:
>In the mean time, let's assume that we "loose" our right wing tank cap
>(the left one is tight and in place).
>
>Would it make any difference in this case?
>
>Can we do anything about the situ?
I'm not sure what you're asking, Torgier. I did some calcs and the dynamic
pressure at 115 MIAS at sea level equates to about 9" of static fuel head.
(Assume the static pressure is the same across the open cap and at the vent
pitot tip, a reasonable approximation.) This appears to mean that as long
as you're going fast you can empty the left tank. When the fuel level in
the left tank/line drops to 9" below that in the right tank you'll be at
equilibrium. This will leave nearly the entire left fuel line and vent line
full, and the right tank full. Both levels will drop simultaneously, all
things being equal, with the left level 9" below the right. (This assumes
the top of your header is more than 9" below the bottom of your tanks. I'm
pretty sure mine is.)
If you slow down the 9" static fuel head drops as the square of the
velocity. (E.g. at 57.5 MIAS the head will be 9/4" or 2.25") If you climb
the static fuel head drops linearly with the air density. So if you find
you're blowing fuel, slow down, climb high, lift the streaming wing a
little, and you should be fine. Indeed you should be able to lift the wing
enough to stop the leak.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rust behind battery tray |
Colin,
That has always bothered me since I built my Fox. I remember hearing
rattling noises when I moved powder coated items like the horizontal
stabilizer and rudder. Of course they were powdercoated and I couldn't do
anything about it. I ordered a set of powdercoated wing support brackets so
I could tow my aircraft. As I was fabricating the supports to fit I tapped
them on the garage floor after I heard rattling. Out came all sorts of rust.
I don't know if anyone else has experienced that? I also wonder if the
factory treated the tubing with linseed oil before they sealed them? I built
my Fox 1993-1996. Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "colind" <colin@ptclhk.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rust behind battery tray
>
> After many delays, I am finally ready to put the fabric on the KF4. I just
> need another inspection to be done by our local RAAus inspector, and
> that's booked for next Monday. I can't believe that its taken so long to
> get to this point (its been 18mths since we brought the part finished kit
> home).
>
> The last job I did in preparation for the inspection, was to remove the
> old rear-mounted battery tray. The tray had been welded in place at the
> factory, between three braces on the right side of the fuselage. There
> were two small weld beads on each side of each brace, which I cut through
> using a very fine cutting disk.
>
> The fuselage had been powder-coated at the factory.
>
> After removing the tray, I noticed that both the tray and the three braces
> showed significant rust where they touched. The powder coating had not
> penetrated or sealed those contact points, hence the surface was left
> unprotected, and oxidation had started. The surface of the braces was
> pitted. Had I not discovered this, the rust would have continued to the
> piont at which the integrity of these braces may have been compromised.
> The kit had been stored for many years in a very dry location prior to our
> purchasing it, hence this limited the progress of the oxidation. Once the
> aircraft began operations however, the amoint of moisture able to get into
> thease areas would have been much higher, so I believe that the speed of
> oxidation would have increased significantly and, because of its location,
> would not have been easily noticed.
>
> I suggest that anyone with a battery tray that has been welded in place at
> the factory, especially if their fuselage was also powder-coated, should
> check the brace contact points closely. Standard spray painting would not
> guarantee that these areas were properly coated either, due to their
> akward position.
>
> The rust shown on the battery tray edge in photo #0121 is similar, but
> slightly less than what I found on the brace where the tray contacted it.
> Sorry, but by the time I thought of getting the camera, I had already
> cleaned and primed the brace tubes.
>
> Regards
> Colin Durey
> Sydney - Australia
> +61-418-677073
>
> --------
> Colin Durey
> Sydney
> +61-418-677073
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89710#89710
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0123_890.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0121_121.jpg
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow, continued. |
My numbers are similar to Guy's
Some years ago I used a water manometer to check my airspeed indicator. It
doesn't take a lot of Delta Water to indicate our airspeeds, for esample
the delta at 30 mph is .74 inches, 90 is 4.13 inches and 6.18 inches at 120
mph. Since our fuel is about .75 the density of water, the head of our fuel
would be .98", 5.49" and 8.21" at the corresponding airspeeds.
I had often heard it said that the pressure from the pitot vents is about
one or so psi. Apparently this is not true as the pressure at 120 mph would
need to be about .3 psi to maintain a 8.21" column of water.
What this means, I haven't a clue really. This I do know, On a flight from
Las Vegas to Ely, Nevada a couple of years ago, I noticed the right tank had
lost most of it's fuel. The left tank was essentially full. On landing I
found that the fuel cap on the right tank had been attached at only one
side. For me, at least, I lost fuel apparently from a venturi effect and
the low pressure on top of the wing from the mis fit cap sucking the tank
dry and had apparently very little transfilling from the pressurized side.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow, continued.
>
> At 12:56 PM 1/23/2007, you wrote:
>>In the mean time, let's assume that we "loose" our right wing tank cap
>>(the left one is tight and in place).
>>
>>Would it make any difference in this case?
>>
>>Can we do anything about the situ?
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking, Torgier. I did some calcs and the dynamic
> pressure at 115 MIAS at sea level equates to about 9" of static fuel head.
> (Assume the static pressure is the same across the open cap and at the
> vent pitot tip, a reasonable approximation.) This appears to mean that as
> long as you're going fast you can empty the left tank. When the fuel level
> in the left tank/line drops to 9" below that in the right tank you'll be
> at equilibrium. This will leave nearly the entire left fuel line and vent
> line full, and the right tank full. Both levels will drop simultaneously,
> all things being equal, with the left level 9" below the right. (This
> assumes the top of your header is more than 9" below the bottom of your
> tanks. I'm pretty sure mine is.)
>
> If you slow down the 9" static fuel head drops as the square of the
> velocity. (E.g. at 57.5 MIAS the head will be 9/4" or 2.25") If you climb
> the static fuel head drops linearly with the air density. So if you find
> you're blowing fuel, slow down, climb high, lift the streaming wing a
> little, and you should be fine. Indeed you should be able to lift the wing
> enough to stop the leak.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
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