Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:34 AM - Re: rib stitch (Brett Walmsley)
2. 04:28 AM - Re: rib stitch (Fox5flyer)
3. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: rib stitch (Fox5flyer)
4. 04:40 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions=gasolator (Fox5flyer)
5. 04:40 AM - Re Ribstitching....Again (Floyd Johnson)
6. 04:50 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions (Fox5flyer)
7. 05:38 AM - Re: Fuel Cross Flow Test (Noel Loveys)
8. 05:53 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions=gasolator (Noel Loveys)
9. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh Skiplane Fly-in Note on LSA as well (Noel Loveys)
10. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: which paint (Noel Loveys)
11. 06:49 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions=gasolator (paul wilson)
12. 07:01 AM - Re: rib stitch flat or round is fine (flier)
13. 07:21 AM - Re: stitching ribs (Noel Loveys)
14. 07:43 AM - Re: Fuel Pump needed (Bob)
15. 08:39 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions (Lowell Fitt)
16. 08:42 AM - Re: stitching ribs (Michael Gibbs)
17. 08:53 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions (Lowell Fitt)
18. 10:18 AM - Re: Fuel System Questions=finger strainer (Lowell Fitt)
19. 10:18 AM - Lowell .......... : Re: stitching ribs (dave)
20. 10:26 AM - Re: stitching ribs (Lowell Fitt)
21. 10:37 AM - Re: rib stitch (Lowell Fitt)
22. 10:39 AM - GPS log time WAS: I'm ba...aaack! Home from Oshkosh (Michel Verheughe)
23. 11:01 AM - Re: rib stitch (Alan Daniels)
24. 11:31 AM - Re: stitching ribs (Don Smythe)
25. 12:33 PM - Re: rib stitch (dave)
26. 03:43 PM - OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" (Lynn Matteson)
27. 03:53 PM - Lowell .......... : Re: stitching ribs (kitfoxmike)
28. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Tips for working with Hysol (Lynn Matteson)
29. 04:38 PM - Re: rib stitch (Lowell Fitt)
30. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: stitching ribs (jdmcbean)
31. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: stitching ribs (dave)
32. 05:06 PM - Re: rib stitch (dave)
33. 05:19 PM - Re: rib stitch (Noel Loveys)
34. 05:24 PM - Fact or Fiction (dave)
35. 06:15 PM - Re: Fact or Fiction (jdmcbean)
36. 06:16 PM - Oshkosh Skiplane trip...off topic? (Lynn Matteson)
37. 06:21 PM - Re: rib stitch (Lowell Fitt)
38. 06:23 PM - Different tanks (Rex Shaw)
39. 06:27 PM - Re: Fact or Fiction (dave)
40. 06:34 PM - Re: rib stitch (dave)
41. 06:37 PM - Re: Fact or Fiction - to Mcbean (dave)
42. 07:07 PM - Re: rib stitch (Fox5flyer)
43. 07:07 PM - Re: Different tanks (Bradley M Webb)
Message 1
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It was me that said not to use the flat cord. My experience with it was not too
good. It got too twisted. I did a couple ribs with it and gave up and switched
to the round waxed cord. Make sure you clean up th wax residue before you start
taping.
--------
Brett
Model IV 1200/912UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91528#91528
Message 2
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Good choice, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with belt+suspenders.
To the person who said to not use the flat lace. Why not?
Deke
-
Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants
to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the ribs
sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound right
the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold THANKS
Jerry Evans
kitfox 555
Message 3
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Quick answer. Almost like talking on the phone! Personally I used the
round cord, but I wondered about the flat cord because if done properly it
would probably not leave as much of a raised cord area. Your explanation
makes sense.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:33 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: rib stitch
>
> It was me that said not to use the flat cord. My experience with it was
not too good. It got too twisted. I did a couple ribs with it and gave up
and switched to the round waxed cord. Make sure you clean up th wax residue
before you start taping.
>
> --------
> Brett
> Model IV 1200/912UL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91528#91528
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions=gasolator |
Good question Lloyd. The setup you have sounds like pretty much of a stock
S5 or most other Kitfoxes. If the header tank has a belly drain (as
designed) then it is the lowest spot in the system and shouldn't need a
gascolator. You might want to install a quality fuel filter on the engine
side of firewall as a last point of defense, but that's a personal thing.
Deke
> All,
> Earlier in the thread on fuel systems there was mention of gasolators, I
was
> wondering what people are running on thier 912's. I have a 5 with duel
wing
> tanks and the header behind the seat. Currently do not have a gascolator
but
> was looking to add one.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Lloyd
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re Ribstitching....Again |
I've been following some ot the threads on rib stitching and I'd like to throw
my two cents worth in.
I have a MOD IV 1200 which I completed in 96. I ribstitched with flat cord. I didn't
find it a problem
at all. It just took a few minutes longer and the wings look beautiful; almost
as smooth as metal.
It took me 4 hours per wing and was fun to do. Also, for those of you getting ready
to lay tapes,
be sure to iron then down several times. Run your fingers along the pinked edge
and feel for rough
edges and go over them again. Then do them again. The end result will be a beautifuly
smooth
wing. It takes time, but I've had lots of comments on my covering job and it's
because I ironed and
ironed those tapes. Happy Building. Floyd N69FJ
Floyd Johnson
kitfox69@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions |
Guy, do you have a brand name and number for the polysulphide sealer? Why
is it better than other sealers?
Deke
>
> At 09:04 AM 1/29/2007, you wrote:
> >--How do you clean/remove/maintain the "finger filters" in the tank?
>
> Mine are 3/8 NPT brass threaded into the fiberglass tank. I remove them,
> clean them, carefully clean the threads in the tank with a tap, carefully
> clean the threads on the filter with a die, then re-install them with two
> part polysulfide sealant.
>
> If possible, I recommend installing permanent brass adapters in the tank,
> so the finger strainers can be taken out easily and repeatedly without
> ruining the tank threads. I wish I had.
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Fuel Cross Flow Test |
That's a shade over 12 Gal/hr. Under normal conditions you may not even
need a fuel pump.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Cross Flow Test
>
>
>
> All,
> I ran a simple fuel cross flow test today. I was
> nearly empty,
> with about 3 gallons in each 13 gallon wing tank. I then
> filled the right
> tank, (with vent,) with 9.3 gallons of fuel and started my
> timer. It took
> about 23 minutes for the two tanks to equilibrate. I have
> 3/8" fuel lines,
> mostly aluminum. OAT was about 60F. Fuel was 100LL, no oil, no TCP.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Fuel System Questions=gasolator |
The gascolator allows you two things. First there is a small strainer in it
to catch a few chunks that may have gotten past your finger strainers.
Second the gascolator is usually positioned at the lowest point in a fuel
system this means as a plane is sitting on the tarmac any water will
eventually sink to that location where you can drain it. Maintenance isn't
too much... Open the gascolator every so many hours and make sure the
strainers are clear. It is nice to put a bucket under the gascolator as you
disassemble it, That will catch the couple of ounces of gas and any "o"
rings etc that may drop when you remove the screen.
Gascolators are pretty good practice for lockwiring too. They are usually
in pretty tight spots, there are worse and you may not get the lockwiring
done as neat as you might like the first try.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Cudnohufsky's
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:16 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel System Questions=gasolator
>
>
> <7suds@chartermi.net>
>
> All,
> Earlier in the thread on fuel systems there was mention of
> gasolators, I was
> wondering what people are running on thier 912's. I have a 5
> with duel wing
> tanks and the header behind the seat. Currently do not have a
> gascolator but
> was looking to add one.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Lloyd
>
> Do not Archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Skiplane Fly-in Note on LSA as well |
It would be kind of dumb if you were required to have a Cat 3 or 4 medical
to fly your SP somewhere in the U.S. Canada is however a sovereign nation
but to keep things open considers the regulations south of the border.
Now for the dumb part
Canada doesn't accept a drivers license as proof of medical... Yet.
The good news.. The Cat 4 medical here is simply a document that you sign
saying you don't have any of the problems they list. If you are an old
codger (right) over the ripe age of 40, then you will have to have a ECG
with the section signed by the doctor saying you have a normal sinus rhythm.
The bad news...
The Canadian government will lighten your wallet by around $50.00 CDN
($40.00 U.S.) to process your medical.
More dumb stuff:
A Canadian airliner leaving a Canadian city and landing in a Canadian city
but flying over U.S. airspace requires every one on board to have a valid
passport in their possession.
I doubt if U.S. airlines require any airliner departing a U.S. city and
landing in another U.S. city but flying over Canadian airspace require
passports for their passengers to enter the U.S. by air.
One of these days beaureaucrats on both sides of the 49th may get rid of all
the dumb laws.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:23 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Oshkosh Skiplane Fly-in Note on
> LSA as well
>
>
>
> That's kinda dumb, because the reason for the Sport Pilot ticket is
> partially to avoid having to have a 3rd class medical...(is that a
> "cat 3 or 4 medical"?)
>
> Lynn
> On Jan 27, 2007, at 6:25 AM, dave wrote:
>
> > "The plane can come in if he asks permission beforehand. It is not
> > an automatic online admossion like for amateur-builts, but they
> > will not refuse the plane. The minimum US license currently
> > accepted by Ottawa is the Private. There will be a meeting
> with the
> > FAA in May at which this might be relaxed to accept the
> Sport Pilot
> > ticket if it is validated by a category 3 or 4 medical "
> >
> > Hope this helps ,
> >
> >
> > Dave
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Some people have painted the bottom of their planes very dark colours ...
Helps hide the guck.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kitfoxmike
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: which paint
>
>
> <customtrans@qwest.net>
>
> polytone is great to apply and looks fine if put on right.
> Now my only problem is the bottom, the exhaust puts yuk all
> over the bottom and it stains the polytone, I've never had to
> worry about doing repairs, I guess if I had a problem with
> landings and have bent parts this would be something to worry
> about, but anyway, I think the best solution is to clean the
> underneath real good and shoot it with urathane. If that
> goes fine just put it on the whole airplane, don't know,
> anybody have an answer for me on this problem I have?
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91068#91068
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions=gasolator |
Lloyd,
No need for a gascolator just a filter which is all a gascolator provides. The
drain in the bottom of you header behind the seat has a huge volume to catch any
water and it is at the lowest point in the fuel system. In fact the latest
fuel system diagram from Skystar makes no mention of a gascolator. I think they
deleted the gascolator when they went to the header with the large sump.
So, if you have the above mentioned header then the gascolator is just extra un-needed
hardware assuming you have a final filter.
Compare a typical automotive gas filter cost with an ACS gascolator cost and see
why Skystar changed the design.
Regards, Paul
===============
At 08:46 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote:
All,
Earlier in the thread on fuel systems there was mention of gasolators, I was wondering
what people are running on thier 912's. I have a 5 with duel wing tanks
and the header behind the seat. Currently do not have a gascolator but was looking
to add one.
Any thoughts?
Lloyd
_________________________________
SISNA...more service, less money.
http://www.sisna.com/exclusive/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: rib stitch flat or round is fine |
I've covered with both flat and round and they're
both easy to use. Doesn't matter if the flat gets
twisted inside the wing. I've very easy to flatten
it as it's pulled tight across the capstrip which is
where it matters.
I use flat now as it protrudes less. With round,
during wet sanding it's easier to nick the top of a
cord through the Polyspray and create fuzz that has
to be addressed.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: rib stitch
<fox5flyer@i-star.com>
>
>Quick answer. Almost like talking on the phone!
Personally I used the
>round cord, but I wondered about the flat cord
because if done properly it
>would probably not leave as much of a raised cord
area. Your explanation
>makes sense.
>Deke
Message 13
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To stitch or not to stitch, that is the question.
I don't think there is a person here who would not recognize the
physical
strength of rib stitching. that's the plus.
Removing the skins at a future date may be a little easier.
Rib stitching is done after the cloth is shrunk. so the tension on
either
side of a rib can be equalized easily.
It looks right.
The stitching minuses are:
It takes longer to do. My cat can fix up a pretty good knot so I don't
think any one who can build a plane will have too much trouble with
that.
It is not as sleek/smooth there will be tapes and little bumps that may
show
through.
Of course it will be heavier... You are putting more into the wings. Not
only the string but the tapes and extra dope to apply them.
It is hard, if not impossible to rib stitch through fuel tanks.
Pros for the gluing:
It is faster.
It is lighter.
It is more aerodynamic
Cons for gluing:
You may not be able to get the cloth shrunk with an even tension on each
side of a rib... If you don't fixing it may be difficult.
Removing the cloth may damage the ribs if you are not very careful.
A small void in a joint may have bad results as the shear forces a void
in
the glue joint can exert may separate a large piece of cloth on a rib
over a
period of time.
What to do:
Get all the info you can remember none of your planes are supersonic or
going to see +/- 7 G.
Go with your decision, being as careful as possible to do a good clean
job.
Noel
Kitfox III-A
All glued up....Still like the look of stitching.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GAry Olson
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Ya, I've got one. Why would you even want to take the chance on being
the
first casualty when the answer is one that basically doesn't weigh
anything,
costs next to nothing, yet gives you a little stronger product. I was
willing to invest 10 - 12 hours to eliminate one more possible problem.
After all, isn't homebuilding all about learning to build the safest
product
possible? Rib stitching is a very interesting skill to learn and after a
while it can be an enjoyable experience. I would do it again in a
heartbeat.
Gary Olson
Oshkosh
----- Original Message ----
From: dave <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:47:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don,
What does the airplane Kit manufacturer ask for in build manual?
That is what is required for inspection here. Possibly more but you
cannot
make a design change without approval.
Don, you summed it up here quite well in your quote " I do not know of
any
wing failures due to not rib stitching. "
anymore questions ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
No offence to John but, the plain fact is that Poly Fiber (the
Manufacturer) is recommending rib stitching on "their" product. Why is
that
so hard to accept? You say that Poly Fiber is "absolutely" being
liability
careful and there is "NO" doubt about that. Do you have first hand
knowledge of the internal workings of Poly Fiber? How can you make such
a
statement?
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave <mailto:dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Sportplane -- I mean John McBean
Poly fiber is asbsolutly being careful for liability reasons. no doubt
about
that.
Personally it is a choice, but then again so is a BRS chute ......in a
Kitfox I don;t see the need for either.
I won't fly in a plane that needs a parachute unless it strapped to
myself
when a test pilot.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
Who is sportplane and what do they have to do with Poly Fiber
procedures? As far as Poly Fiber being over cautious, that is the side
I
would follow for life critical aircraft components. If you don't want
to
rib lace, fine. There are more reasons to rib lace than not. It is the
builders choice.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave <mailto:dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don, Thanks fo the info. What does sportplane recomend?
I would tend to think that there is nothing wrong with or with-out
stitching.
I have no trouble flying without stitching. And remeber Poly fibrre is
most
likely being over cautious for liability reasoning.
I don't think that if you not stitched that there is any case for alarm
at
all.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
You made two post on the same subject so I put them back into one.
see
below.
First post,
"that cruise over 130 mph"
Not very many cruise over 130 MPH. Review the Poly Fiber web site
http://www.polyfiber.com/. It does not mention any speed just said,
"rib
lace". They are the manufacture and should know the best procedures for
installing their product.
Second post,
>>What did the former companies reco-mend ?>>
I already stated that my SS manual used the term "OPTIONAL" for rb
lacing.
Poly Fiber does not agree with the term "OPTIONAL". They want you to
rib
lace.
>>Show me where they separate and I will think about stitching. To me
there
really is little evidence that it is needed with the wide capstrip that
we
have.
I have covered Ultralights with fabirc that have 1/2 " or less width
catstrip and never seen one come loose yet .>>
I already stated there has been one cap failure. You said show me, I
did.
I don't need failure evidence. I just follow the Manufacture
recommended
procedure. In this case the Manufacture is Poly Fiber not Kitfox. Poly
Fiber designed the fabric covering and how to install it.
Denny/Skystar/etc. only use their product. I can't argue an exact
airspeed
where rib lacing or not will save your bacon. That is a foolish
discussion.
Don Smythe
I do not know of any wing failures due to not rib stitching. However, I
do
recall one rib cap failure (the one on the fuselage top outboard) that
came
loose in flight. Those 1" rib caps are held on by a small amount of
glue
and very small staples. The glue is holding in stress not shear. I do
not
recall seeing a fillet at the joint of the rib cap/rib. However, it's
been
a while. I would strongly suggest that the joint would break before the
plywood.
Either way, we could talk all week about the joint/glue/break
first/break second and it wouldn't matter. Poly Fiber highly recommends
rib
lacing on their product. Rib lacing provides a mechanical fastening
between
the top and bottom rib caps.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave <mailto:dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don, do you know of any failures of non sticked wings on Kitfox or Avids
?
The capstrip is about an inch wide plus the fillet that is formed when
you
attach.
I would guess unlessa poor job wasdone that you should fear the failure
of
the plywood itself before the glue lets go.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
In my opinion, "Reasons Not To Stitch" is that many people consider
stitching either too hard, too time consuming, or just plain too
intimidating. None of these reasons are true once you get into the
stitching process. "Reasons To Stitch"....At one time, Poly Fiber did
not
consider stitching an option but, considered it absolutely necessary.
This
was stated by Poly Fiber on several occasions back when I was stitching.
My
SS manual referred to stitching as an "OPTION". Poly Fiber greatly
disagreed.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave <mailto:dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Jerry,
that like saying is there a reason to stitch ?
How many problems has there actually been from fabirc lifting ?
Mine are not stitched.
Dave
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump needed |
I was just looking into the differences between the Facet pumps and came across a great article on research for the Glastar airplanes. The following is copied from http://archives.glastar.org/9909/msg00697.html and I hope that Don doesn't mind my taking up the space to copy it here in case the link someday dies.
Bob
Hey Builders!
I have some information about the Facet fuel pumps used to transfer fuel
in our airplanes. To support the Pillar Point Avionics "Smart Switch"
Fuel Pump Controller, we have tested threee different models of Facet
pump: the 40171, the 40105, and the 40106. The differences fall into
two distinct categories that relate to pump-off forward and reverse
leakage flows.
Physically, the 40105 and 40
The Facet 40171 pump is the type sold by Stoddard-Hamilton Aircraft ,
Inc. (360-495-8533) to serve as a transfer pump for transferring fuel
from the auxiliary tanks to the main tanks. The 40171 costs about $54
each. The Facet 40105 and 40106 are sold by numerous suppliers,
including Aircraft Spruce and Specialties (800-824-1930 (west);
800-831-2949 (east)), Chief Aircraft (800-447-3408), Wicks
(800-221-9425) and others and typically used in the Zenith and other
aircraft for transferring fuel from an aux tank to a header tank. The
40105/6 pumps cost about $28 to $32 each.
Physically, the 40105 and 40106 are identical. Both Chief Aircraft and
Aircraft Spruce picture these pumps in their catalogs. The 40171 looks
slightly different than the 40105 / 40106 models in that the inlet and
outlet ends of the pump are about 1/4 inch longer than the 40105 / 40106
to accommodate the check and foot valves. (I haven't found any pictures
of the 40171.) Functionally, there is a world of difference between the
40171 and the 40105 / 40106.
All three model pumps have a "lift" capability and can draw fuel from
at least 3-feet. All three move the fuel at about 0.5 gal/min, or about
30 gal/h when they are operating.
In the "OFF" state, however, the differences between the pumps become
more obvious. At a 30-inch head pressure, the 40105 and 40106 pumps
have a forward "leak" rate or drain rate of about 15 gal/h. These pumps
thus flow freely in the forward direction at about one-hald the pumping
rate.... In the reverse direction, the 40105 and 40106 drain backwards
at between 0.05 ga/h to about 0.25 gal/hr, with a mean value over a
dozen tests with four different pumps of about 0.1 gal/h. (As a point
of reference, 0.1 gal/h is about one drop per second). Compare these
numbers to the 40171 pump, which showed no detectable leakage in the
"OFF" state in either the forward or reverse directions over several
hours.
The utilization implications are pretty clear: If your "from" tank is
higher that the "to" tank, you need the 40171 pump to prevent your
"from" fuel from draining into your "to" tank. If your "from" and "to"
tanks are at about the same level, you should still use the 40171 pump
to prevent an exchange of fuel. If your "from" tank is lower than your
"to" tank, you can use any of the pumps described, but if you use the
40105 or 40106, you should use a check valve on the outlet side of the
pump to present your "to" tank from draining back into your "from"
tank. Wicks lists a check valve at about $24, so cost-wise the 40171
may represent a better bargin because it has the checks built into
them....
Pillar Point Avionics offers fuel pump controllers for all of these
pumps. For the 40171 pump, PPAv provides the XFR-12-2-5F model
controller; for the 40105 and 40106 pumps, PPAv provides the
XFR-12-2-5G model controller. We developed the "G" model when we found
that the operating characteristics of the 40105 and 40106 were just
different enough from the 40171 to make control of those pumps with the
"F"-model Smart Switch less reliable than we wanted.
If you have a PPAv controller and are building a GlaStar or another
airplane that uses the 40171 pump(s), the original production "F" model
will be just fine. If you have the 40105 or 40106 pumps, you will need
the "G" model controller. If you need the "G" model controller and have
NOT been contacted by PPAv, then please contact me by email at
mailto:ddouglas@ppavionics.com or by fax (650-726-9567) or by telephone
(650-740-1516).
You can identify the model by looking at the mounting tab on the pump.
One side of the mounting slot will be stamped "40" and the other side
will be stamped "105", 106" or "171". If you have a different model
pump and want to use the PPAv Smart Switch Fuel Pump Controller to
reduce your aux fuel management workload, please contact us. You can
read about the PPAv Controller at
http://www.ppavionics.com
Dennis Douglas
Pillar Point Avionics, Inc.
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91582#91582
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions |
The only thing I remember reported regarding the gascolator and filter was
on a (I think recently complsted) Kitfox where the engine would run for a
while than stop. It would run and stop again when started again.
What the builder found was fine glass fibers that would clog the filter then
after engine shut down the fibers would drop to the bottom of the bowl, only
to start moving in the fuel and eventually clog the filter once again after
the fuel began to flow again.
In my opinion, this is an interesting subject for argument and scenarios can
be brought up strongly supporting both sides. I don't believe there is
overwhelming evidence for either side though. I guess this why the subject
comes up from time to time just like the rib stitching discussion.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel System Questions
>
> Nick:
>
> I can't speak regarding the filters in the wing tanks. I've wondered the
> same thing myself. Regarding the gascolator, the screen is up inside the
> top part rather than in the removable bowl portion. At least it was on my
> Fox.
>
> Clem Nichols
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Scholtes" <Nick@Scholtes1.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:04 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel System Questions
>
>
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> I just bought a KitFox, and I'm going through and
>> checking/cleaning/maintaining everything that I can before spring.
>>
>> --How do you clean/remove/maintain the "finger filters" in the tank?
>> -- On the gascolator, is there supposed to be a filter screen in there?
>> Mine is just an empty can. The gascolator on my tractors is a glass
>> "sump", but it also has a filter screen on the top.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: stitching ribs |
Dave sez:
>What did the former companies reco-mend ? denney ,skystar, avid, and
>now Sportplanes ?
As Don said, the only recommendation that matters is from the maker
of the glue that holds the fabric on, and they say to rib stitch.
Poly-tac is very strong in sheer, less so under a peel load.
>What does the airplane Kit manufacturer ask for in build manual?
>That is what is required for inspection here.
I'm pretty sure my manual refers me to the Poly Fiber manual for
instructions on attaching fabric. If you don't follow the Poly Fiber
instructions, you haven't done it per spec.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions |
A note on finger strainers.
I remember the first discussion came up after one of the first Alaska group
had a sheet of Kreem come loose from his tank and cover the finger strainer.
Yep, it caused a lengthy discussion on the Kreem coating as well.
I believe there were a number of people that removed their finger strainers
due the discussion and abundance of opinion. My experience was during an
annual inspection where I had folded back the wing and removed the finger
strainer for inspection. I have never found anything in the screens
themselves. What I did find was a piece of jagged rubber about the size of
a pinto bean lying along side the tank opening. I fished it out and decided
that it was a piece of fuel line that got into my tank from a fueling system
at one of the FBOs I visited during a cross country. My guess is that it
was a crap generated during periodic maintenance of the facility. The
important thing here is that with the finger strainer this "dead mouse" was
not a problem. Had I not had it in place, the "dead mouse" was the perfict
size to get into the fuel outlet and shut down the flow from that tank.
I know I had not introduced this piece of rubber because I always use a Mr.
Funnel while fueling at home.
I guess this is to suggest that we think outside of the box sometimes.
Micro sized filters are fine down stream, but can be troublesome if that is
all there is.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marco Menezes" <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel System Questions
> Hi Nick.
>
> On my Fox, those finger strainers just screw out of the boss glued to the
> tank. Mesh on those is big enough to catch dead mice but not much else. As
> for the gascolator, if its the ACS homebuilder's model, screen (very fine
> mesh) is in the top, not the removeable bowl. I have the Pureolator glass
> filters in each line from tank to header. They catch everything
> (hopefully) that gets past the finger strainers.
>
> Nick Scholtes <Nick@Scholtes1.com> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I just bought a KitFox, and I'm going through and
> checking/cleaning/maintaining everything that I can before spring.
>
> --How do you clean/remove/maintain the "finger filters" in the tank?
>
> -- On the gascolator, is there supposed to be a filter screen in there?
> Mine is just an empty can. The gascolator on my tractors is a glass
> "sump", but it also has a filter screen on the top.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Nick
>
>
> Marco Menezes
> Model 2 582 N99KX
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Questions=finger strainer |
Paul Wilson Said -
"Then the hose usually would have to be cut off. "
I have found that by loosening the clamps, and wiggling the hose a bit, the
hose can be sufficiently loosened from the barb fitting that it can be
turned without removing the hose from the fitting. Regarding the periodic
replacement of the hose, I have heard opinions from respected sources that
periodic inspection is necessary and replacement when needed.
Lowell
> =================
>
>
> _________________________________
> SISNA...more service, less money.
> http://www.sisna.com/exclusive/
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Lowell .......... : Re: stitching ribs |
How a bout a survey who is stitched and who is not?
I am not, but I wold have to be sold on a reason to stitch a Kitfox on a
recover.
If I cruised over 120 to 130 mph , then I might consider it .
It is a personal choice like a BRS chute.
Lowell -- you are well respected-- are you stitched ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
> Dave sez:
>
>>What did the former companies reco-mend ? denney ,skystar, avid, and now
>>Sportplanes ?
>
> As Don said, the only recommendation that matters is from the maker of the
> glue that holds the fabric on, and they say to rib stitch. Poly-tac is
> very strong in sheer, less so under a peel load.
>
>>What does the airplane Kit manufacturer ask for in build manual?
>>That is what is required for inspection here.
>
> I'm pretty sure my manual refers me to the Poly Fiber manual for
> instructions on attaching fabric. If you don't follow the Poly Fiber
> instructions, you haven't done it per spec.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: stitching ribs |
I suspect that the Polyfiber recommendation is generic in nature. Example -
the Rans rib was previously fabricated from aluminum tubing. The contact
surface is probably a tangent of about an eighth of an inch wide. I have
seen their new ribs and the capstrip - all aluminum stamped rib - is
probably a half inch wide. With our 1" capstrip I think we can get away
with a bit more leeway in the decision process. That said, I did rib
stitch, largely because of a discussion such as this. I think someone said
something about "belt and suspenders". Something like fuel tank valves,
essential busses, dual ignitions - those things we just don't want to wish
we had when the proverbial "combination of factors" smites us.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
No offence to John but, the plain fact is that Poly Fiber (the
Manufacturer) is recommending rib stitching on "their" product. Why is that
so hard to accept? You say that Poly Fiber is "absolutely" being liability
careful and there is "NO" doubt about that. Do you have first hand
knowledge of the internal workings of Poly Fiber? How can you make such a
statement?
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Sportplane -- I mean John McBean
Poly fiber is asbsolutly being careful for liability reasons. no doubt
about that.
Personally it is a choice, but then again so is a BRS chute ......in a
Kitfox I don;t see the need for either.
I won't fly in a plane that needs a parachute unless it strapped to myself
when a test pilot.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
Who is sportplane and what do they have to do with Poly Fiber
procedures? As far as Poly Fiber being over cautious, that is the side I
would follow for life critical aircraft components. If you don't want to
rib lace, fine. There are more reasons to rib lace than not. It is the
builders choice.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don, Thanks fo the info. What does sportplane recomend?
I would tend to think that there is nothing wrong with or with-out
stitching.
I have no trouble flying without stitching. And remeber Poly fibrre
is most likely being over cautious for liability reasoning.
I don't think that if you not stitched that there is any case for
alarm at all.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Dave,
You made two post on the same subject so I put them back into
one. see below.
First post,
"that cruise over 130 mph"
Not very many cruise over 130 MPH. Review the Poly Fiber web site
http://www.polyfiber.com/. It does not mention any speed just said, "rib
lace". They are the manufacture and should know the best procedures for
installing their product.
Second post,
>>What did the former companies reco-mend ?>>
I already stated that my SS manual used the term "OPTIONAL" for rb
lacing. Poly Fiber does not agree with the term "OPTIONAL". They want you
to rib lace.
>>Show me where they separate and I will think about stitching.
To me there really is little evidence that it is needed with the wide
capstrip that we have.
I have covered Ultralights with fabirc that have 1/2 " or less
width catstrip and never seen one come loose yet .>>
I already stated there has been one cap failure. You said show
me, I did. I don't need failure evidence. I just follow the Manufacture
recommended procedure. In this case the Manufacture is Poly Fiber not
Kitfox. Poly Fiber designed the fabric covering and how to install it.
Denny/Skystar/etc. only use their product. I can't argue an exact airspeed
where rib lacing or not will save your bacon. That is a foolish discussion.
Don Smythe
I do not know of any wing failures due to not rib stitching.
However, I do recall one rib cap failure (the one on the fuselage top
outboard) that came loose in flight. Those 1" rib caps are held on by a
small amount of glue and very small staples. The glue is holding in stress
not shear. I do not recall seeing a fillet at the joint of the rib cap/rib.
However, it's been a while. I would strongly suggest that the joint would
break before the plywood.
Either way, we could talk all week about the
joint/glue/break first/break second and it wouldn't matter. Poly Fiber
highly recommends rib lacing on their product. Rib lacing provides a
mechanical fastening between the top and bottom rib caps.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don, do you know of any failures of non sticked wings on
Kitfox or Avids ?
The capstrip is about an inch wide plus the fillet that is
formed when you attach.
I would guess unlessa poor job wasdone that you should fear
the failure of the plywood itself before the glue lets go.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
In my opinion, "Reasons Not To Stitch" is that many people
consider stitching either too hard, too time consuming, or just plain too
intimidating. None of these reasons are true once you get into the
stitching process. "Reasons To Stitch"....At one time, Poly Fiber did not
consider stitching an option but, considered it absolutely necessary. This
was stated by Poly Fiber on several occasions back when I was stitching. My
SS manual referred to stitching as an "OPTION". Poly Fiber greatly
disagreed.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Jerry,
that like saying is there a reason to stitch ?
How many problems has there actually been from fabirc
lifting ?
Mine are not stitched.
Dave
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Message 21
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Not a bad choice.
I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why the
flat cord is discouraged.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants to
> know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the ribs sound
> like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound right the
> safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold THANKS
>
>
> Jerry Evans
> kitfox 555
Message 22
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| Subject: | GPS log time WAS: I'm ba...aaack! Home from Oshkosh |
On Jan 29, 2007, at 9:59 PM, dave wrote:
> YUP , I think it goes from point of departure ?
Okay, Dave. My GPS is running with PocketFMS and there, I can make my
aircraft profile; best ROC, fuel consumption, and ... minimum flight
speed, which I sat to 30 MPH for my Kitfox. Under that speed, the unit
doesn't log flying time. I think it makes more sense than 500 feet AGL
from the point of departure, especially in the deep fjords of Norway.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 23
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I have done glue only on the capstrip with 10 years of flying and no
problems, I have rib stitched, but my favorite is to rivet to the
capstrip. All the kitfox build group planes are use rivets as well as
the one I built since. Rib stitching is fun so do what YOU want to do
and what make you feel good.
jerry evans wrote:
> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants
> to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the
> ribs sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound
> right the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold
> THANKS
>
>
> Jerry Evans
> kitfox 555
> *
>
>
> *
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: stitching ribs |
Dave,
I must admit, this whole thread between you and me was a test. You
remember my post a couple weeks ago about the list becoming a basic CHAT
room. I wanted to see how far you would go trying to convince everyone
that rib stitching wasn't necessary.
You asked for proof of a cap failure and I gave you one. You never
mentioned it or acknowledge it just kept saying, "rib lacing not
necessary"... You never offered one piece of informative, factual
information except to say, rib stitching not necessary". You asked all
the questions and accepted no answers.
Finally, I almost spit my first cup of coffee all over the computer
this morning when I saw your final words.
"anymore questions" ? Dave, you asked all the questions ("what did SS
say, what did Avid say, what did John say, has there ever been a cap
failure, and on and on.") Your very latest now want's a survey. What
purpose would that serve except to tie the List up with more unnecessary
CHAT? Rib lacing is highly preferred and recommended by Poly Fiber.
Period. In your last post you said you would have to be sold on rib
lacing. I really don't know what else it would take to sell you.
Gary Olsen answered your "anymore questions" the best of all. If
that's not reason enough, what else do you want?
>>doesn't weigh anything, costs next to nothing, gives a little stronger
product, invest 10 - 12 hours, build the safest product possible,
interesting skill, enjoyable experience.>>
BTW Dave, I don't have any more questions.
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: stitching ribs
Don,
What does the airplane Kit manufacturer ask for in build manual?
That is what is required for inspection here. Possibly more but you
cannot make a design change without approval.
Don, you summed it up here quite well in your quote " I do not know of
any wing failures due to not rib stitching. "
anymore questions ?
Dave
Message 25
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Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or re-covering?
Would you use it again it again?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> Not a bad choice.
>
> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why the
> flat cord is discouraged.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants to
>> know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the ribs
>> sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound right
>> the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold THANKS
>>
>>
>> Jerry Evans
>> kitfox 555
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | OFF TOPIC: "Flyboys" |
For those that loved it, it became available on DVD today (I bought a
copy)...those that hated it need not reply. : )
Lynn
do not archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Lowell .......... : Re: stitching ribs |
I stitched mine. I feel comfortable when doing my famous wide open 2ft down the
runway and pulling up at the end. Or, doing the same but turning out left or
right with about a 60 degree turn, not so much on the climb rate. Or doing
a switchback, or teardrop back to the runway and doing a 70+ degree turn back
to the opposite runway, real fun, the tower loves to watch. Has anybody done
a hammer head wing over in a fox, that's fun also. like I said, glad my wing is
stitched. My cruise is over 90 kts.
--------
kitfoxmike
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91694#91694
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Tips for working with Hysol |
I mix Hysol by weight, and on a glass or clear plastic lid. With
mixing taking place on this transparent surface, the exact mixing can
be done because you can see for certain that it is thoroughly mixed
by turning the glass over and observing the black and white streaks
from underneath, then mixing until uniformly grey. Try it...you'll be
surprised how much black and white is still visible when you think
you've got it mixed enough.
Lynn
On Jan 28, 2007, at 9:52 PM, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> That baggy tip is maybe the best tip you'll get. Also, dip your
> gloved fingers in some denatured alcohol before you touch it. You
> can push it around and shape it just like factory with no sticking
> to the gloves. A little flox mixed in helps it hold its shape. It
> doesn't take as much flox as the old 3M stuff does.
>
> I used 3m when I built my plane. Then I had to build a new wing
> and Skystar was supplying Hysol by that time. The Hysol is much
> easier.
> Tom Jones
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91193#91193
>
>
Message 29
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Dave,
I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early Kitfox list and
I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I enjoyed the
process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it again. I have
to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have to start over
agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it was brought to
mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment. I did stitch to the
false ribs below the tanks by making various needle length and shapes by
flattening the end of a length of coat hanger drilling a hole thriugh it
deburring and sharpening the other end. I found that the hardened needles
would break rather than bend. Being able to bend the needles got me around
the drag-anti-drag tubes and other things I forgot were in the wing.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or re-covering?
> Would you use it again it again?
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
>>
>> Not a bad choice.
>>
>> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why
>> the flat cord is discouraged.
>>
>> Lowell
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants
>>> to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the ribs
>>> sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound right
>>> the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold THANKS
>>>
>>>
>>> Jerry Evans
>>> kitfox 555
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: stitching ribs |
Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn. Poly
Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
methods.
What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get
to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few
"approved" methods.
Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time but I
like the look..
I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
laced....
Fly Safe !!
John McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
--
9:31 AM
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: stitching ribs |
John , it is not an issue,
I only stating that a vast majority of Kitfoxs are not stitched.
I certainly do not want to caue any concern for the many owners and builders
of these great planes.
I fly mine with out stitching over 250 to 300 hours per year and no
troubles.
If I was to recover would i stitch ? Possibly but in a 582 I doubt it.
The 1 inch wide capstrip does a excellent job at adhesion.
Look at many Ultralights with 1/2 " Round tube with fabric "glued to them
only" not to mention alum ribs that are only 1/2 "
That is my ten cents worth,
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
> Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn. Poly
> Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
> methods.
>
> What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you
> get
> to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a
> few
> "approved" methods.
>
> Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time but
> I
> like the look..
>
> I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
> laced....
>
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John McBean
> 208.337.5111
> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>
>
> --
> 9:31 AM
>
>
>
Message 32
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Lowell are you the same guy here?
Just curious ,
Dave
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/29348
Re: Rib Stitching
Ron, Some have. I didn't, in fact it didn't occur to me at the time for
some reason. My opinion on the subject: Not necessary. The dimensions are
not great enough to allow much ballooning even if the fabric separated from
the ribs.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> Dave,
>
> I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early Kitfox list
> and I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I enjoyed
> the process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it again. I
> have to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have to start
> over agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it was
> brought to mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment. I did
> stitch to the false ribs below the tanks by making various needle length
> and shapes by flattening the end of a length of coat hanger drilling a
> hole thriugh it deburring and sharpening the other end. I found that the
> hardened needles would break rather than bend. Being able to bend the
> needles got me around the drag-anti-drag tubes and other things I forgot
> were in the wing.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
>>
>> Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or re-covering?
>> Would you use it again it again?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Not a bad choice.
>>>
>>> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why
>>> the flat cord is discouraged.
>>>
>>> Lowell
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
>>> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants
>>>> to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the ribs
>>>> sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound right
>>>> the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold THANKS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jerry Evans
>>>> kitfox 555
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
Lowell:
Your post reminded me that's just about the way we had to do it in
school.... But what we did was de-temper pre curved needles. Not easy...
In one champ I worked on the drag/antidrag tubes actually passed through the
fuel tank. The tubes had to be removed with the gas tank. To be honest on
that particular plane the cloth was attached to the ribs with special screws
which were then covered with tape. This forum is the first I've heard of
the flat string. I can see it being a good idea.
Noel
I still like the look of a nice rib stitching job. It's a bit like pinking.
If you went through all the rouble of getting the right tape and applying it
properly why would you want to cover it in tons of dope?? I feel sorry for
the all metal planes. They don't have the nice tapes.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:07 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Dave,
>
> I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early
> Kitfox list and
> I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I
> enjoyed the
> process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it
> again. I have
> to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have
> to start over
> agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it
> was brought to
> mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment. I
> did stitch to the
> false ribs below the tanks by making various needle length
> and shapes by
> flattening the end of a length of coat hanger drilling a hole
> thriugh it
> deburring and sharpening the other end. I found that the
> hardened needles
> would break rather than bend. Being able to bend the needles
> got me around
> the drag-anti-drag tubes and other things I forgot were in the wing.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
> >
> > Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or
> re-covering?
> > Would you use it again it again?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >
> >
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>
> >> Not a bad choice.
> >>
> >> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit
> curious as why
> >> the flat cord is discouraged.
> >>
> >> Lowell
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >>
> >>
> >>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for
> those who wants
> >>> to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will
> stitch the ribs
> >>> sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace,
> that sound right
> >>> the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold
> THANKS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jerry Evans
> >>> kitfox 555
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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|
One more thing ,
Look at it from a potential buyer or Kit builder that is interested in a
Kitfox and they read the mixed opinions of everyone it could in fact deter
some buyers away.
I personally think that the Kitfox is the best Kitplane on the used market
for value as well as the Kits Stitched or not stitched.
I appreciate the conerns of guys who fly 20 hours a year but hey we all got
a great plane regardless.
I have been around Kitfoxes/Avids/ Clones since the late 80s , maybe not on
this list for too long but i guarantee that my 17 year in these plane
alone give me a feel if what works and what does not.;
No BS from me , just the facts and if i offend anyone I am truly sorry. I
posted videos to try to help a few other like Guy who was taking 700 to
1000' to take off and I get alot of private emails from guys thnaking me and
asking for more. I will do more hopefully this winter.
I was out today in 7 inches of snow with the King fox Tires _ I Think
the skis will be back on tomorrow.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
> John , it is not an issue,
> I only stating that a vast majority of Kitfoxs are not stitched.
> I certainly do not want to caue any concern for the many owners and
> builders of these great planes.
> I fly mine with out stitching over 250 to 300 hours per year and no
> troubles.
> If I was to recover would i stitch ? Possibly but in a 582 I doubt it.
> The 1 inch wide capstrip does a excellent job at adhesion.
> Look at many Ultralights with 1/2 " Round tube with fabric "glued to them
> only" not to mention alum ribs that are only 1/2 "
>
>
> That is my ten cents worth,
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
>
>>
>> Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn. Poly
>> Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
>> methods.
>>
>> What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you
>> get
>> to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a
>> few
>> "approved" methods.
>>
>> Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time
>> but I
>> like the look..
>>
>> I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
>> laced....
>>
>>
>> Fly Safe !!
>> John McBean
>> 208.337.5111
>> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
>> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 9:31 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
No offense taken... I think the question was to rib lace or not to rib
lace.. not if one should buy an aircraft that was not rib laced... You are
correct there are many, many Kitfox's that are not rib laced and the fact is
(correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm sure someone will) Denny and early on SkyStar
said that rib lacing was not required. Later, SkyStar recommended rib
lacing and Kitfox aircraft recommends rib lacing.
One thing that is often overlooked is the evolution of the Kitfox in such
discussions. The Kitfox has gone from 850 lb gross, 70 mph speeds and Vne's
of 90, to an aircraft that has a USEFUL load of almost the original gross
weights and Vne speeds of 140 mph operating turbo engines and 140 hp
Lycomings.
Skis.... Now that sounds like fun !!! I'm looking forward for the floats in
the spring.
Fly Safe !!
John McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fact or Fiction
One more thing ,
Look at it from a potential buyer or Kit builder that is interested in a
Kitfox and they read the mixed opinions of everyone it could in fact deter
some buyers away.
I personally think that the Kitfox is the best Kitplane on the used market
for value as well as the Kits Stitched or not stitched.
I appreciate the conerns of guys who fly 20 hours a year but hey we all got
a great plane regardless.
I have been around Kitfoxes/Avids/ Clones since the late 80s , maybe not on
this list for too long but i guarantee that my 17 year in these plane
alone give me a feel if what works and what does not.;
No BS from me , just the facts and if i offend anyone I am truly sorry. I
posted videos to try to help a few other like Guy who was taking 700 to
1000' to take off and I get alot of private emails from guys thnaking me and
asking for more. I will do more hopefully this winter.
I was out today in 7 inches of snow with the King fox Tires _ I Think
the skis will be back on tomorrow.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
> John , it is not an issue,
> I only stating that a vast majority of Kitfoxs are not stitched.
> I certainly do not want to caue any concern for the many owners and
> builders of these great planes.
> I fly mine with out stitching over 250 to 300 hours per year and no
> troubles.
> If I was to recover would i stitch ? Possibly but in a 582 I doubt it.
> The 1 inch wide capstrip does a excellent job at adhesion.
> Look at many Ultralights with 1/2 " Round tube with fabric "glued to them
> only" not to mention alum ribs that are only 1/2 "
>
>
> That is my ten cents worth,
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
>
>>
>> Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn. Poly
>> Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
>> methods.
>>
>> What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you
>> get
>> to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a
>> few
>> "approved" methods.
>>
>> Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time
>> but I
>> like the look..
>>
>> I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
>> laced....
>>
>>
>> Fly Safe !!
>> John McBean
>> 208.337.5111
>> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
>> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 9:31 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
9:31 AM
--
9:31 AM
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Skiplane trip...off topic? |
Trip to Oshkosh: Getting there
I left my home strip at about 8:30 AM, after having fueled up,
checked for secure caps, and pre-flight. I had attached a length of
SCAT hose to the right-side heater outlet by twist-on friction
only...didn't bother with a hose clamp, as this wasn't going to be a
permanent installation. Not 3 minutes into the flight, I felt good
heat coming from this hose, and decided to snake it over my console
and under my right leg so as to provide heat for my left foot which
had always become cold in previous flights. It didn't help much as
the "not permanent installation" became that...it had come off the
heater outlet, and there was no way to reattach in flight, so I
pulled it free and laid it on the seat. About 2 minutes after that,
the engine began to sputter...I was right over my flight instructors'
strip, and at about 1000' AGL, when I pulled on carb heat, gave a
twist of throttle, thinking of carb icing, then looked at the CLOSED
main fuel shutoff...my gyrations with the damned SCAT hose had caught
the fuel valve and pulled it closed. I opened it and the engine
caught, and I was flying under power again. The engine never did
stop, but was bitching about the amount of fuel it was getting and
with good reason. I thanked my lucky stars, and continued on. I
thought about circling my instructors' field, tossing out the hose,
and looking for it in the Spring, but I probably didn't need a door
opening incident at that time.
I had obtained the Chicago Terminal Area VFR Chart, and would use it
to follow the suggested route around the east side of Chicago,
keeping Lake Michigan on my right side. The ceiling was about 2500'
when I left, and got down to about 2000' the further west I went.
When I got near Michigan City Class D airspace, I radioed for
permission to cross their space at 1900' MSL, which they granted
after first asking me to ident on my transponder. By the time they
gave me permission, I was at 1600' because of the lower ceiling I was
getting into. I made it through ok, and shortly after, saw what WAS
Meigs Field...sad, stupid, day that was...my camera was in the wrong
place...about where John Denver's fuel valve was, and I didn't need
any more distractions at the time, so I took a mental picture and
continued on. I avoided a towered field to the north, and aimed left,
thinking I'd better land and de-coffee, and re-fuel, so I saw
Westosha (5K6), and figured that would do...the fuel symbol being the
key issue here.
I landed and taking what I thought was the right taxiway, found
myself on a dead-end street. I took a right turn across a snowy patch
of grass and parked near the pumps. Found nobody to man the pumps, so
I headed for the pilots lounge. Nobody inside, so I hung around for a
few minutes and a guy walked in, telling me that the fuel was for the
Flying Club's use only, and for the hangar renters. I was told that
Burlington (BUU) was just up the road, so I headed that way. Upon
taxiing out of Westosha, I saw that they had a turf strip covered in
snow, and thought I'd use that, since the wind was a toss-up. Turning
to back taxi down this strip, I got hung up on a ridge of snow left
by the snowplow. Power wouldn't get me off this ridge, so I got out
and pulled the plane back onto the main runway, after first
apologizing via radio to the guy who was sitting at the end of the
runway patiently waiting for this stupid rookie to get his plane the
hell off his field. He was nice and offered help, but I got it going
again and taxied down to where he was and eventually followed him
out. I got to Burlington, fueled up (after a fashion) and made my
required phone call to Pioneer Field to obtain the runway in use and
last minute instructions for landing there. When I say "after a
fashion" it was due to me not being familiar with the operation of
the pump, and it timed out on me. The next attempt was smoother and I
got my fuel and all was well...except for the worry that this pump
was going to dun my credit card for two shots at the $300 that they
hit your card with if you select "fill up" as the option. They
apparently immediately charge you $300 if you select fill up, then
reimburse you a few days later if you don't use up $300 worth of
fuel..."hey machine, I'm flying a Kitfox for God's sake!" ....oh
well, I'll sort that one out later. I left BUU and headed north, only
to run into snow about 1 mile out, and promptly returned to the field
for a 20 minute wait, then headed out again.
When I had made my requisite call to Pioneer Field, I told them I was
about an hour away, and how long was the event to last? About 2 more
hours. I followed the emailed diagrams and printed word descriptions
about dealing with the landing at Pioneer Field to the letter (a bit
more about those later on), and landed at the Mecca of Homebuilts
without incident...I was finally at Oshkosh via air....3 wheels and
skis, as opposed to 6 wheels on a motorhome. I got out and saw there
were only 3 other planes there, as the others had arrived way earlier
and had left. In retrospect, I could have landed on wheels as the
traffic had pretty much beat down the snow to a hardened pack. It was
still loose where I parked though, and my tennis shoes (yeah, I
forgot the B-17 boots that I should have had) didn't cut it in the
drifted snow. I went in, got some soup, and proceeded to relax. A guy
came up to me and asked if I was from Michigan, and I asked how he
knew. He said he met me back at Napoleon Field (3NP) when he flew his
Funk into there. He said that was when my plane was brand-new and I
had just got my solo done. He had been in Chicago on business, and he
drove up to Oshkosh for the day.
Someone mentioned that if I was going to spend the night, that I'd
better get an engine heater, or a heating service for the next
morning as it was going to be single digits overnight. I was told
that I could get this service at Basler or Orion on Wittman Field,
and that I would need to contact the tower prior to leaving Pioneer
Field for instructions on landing at OSH. I am still not an "endorsed
radio operator" but I'd testosteroned my way this far so what the
hell...I called and got the tower to lead me by the hand to a right-
hander onto 27 at Wittman Field, and taxi instructions to the Hilton.
In the HIlton I called Orion, and they didn't have warm-up service,
but they did have a nice warm hangar for $50 for the night and my
'fox would be safe alongside a Citation or some other big bird, so I
took it. Back down the entire length of taxiway Alpha, the little
"shopping cart" wheels on my skis revving up way beyond their red
lines, and my plane was soon safe from the ravages of a Wisconsin
night....and it was Budweiser time.
Next: the trip back...the long way around
Lynn
Message 37
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Well, I guess there are enough Lowells on the list to add an initial or
two.
I guess I,ll add an F to see if it clears up who is who.
I fly a Model IV-1200 that I built between 1993 and 1998. I did rib stitch.
Rotax 912 powered it has 830 hours on it to date.
Lowell F
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> Lowell are you the same guy here?
> Just curious ,
> Dave
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/29348
> Re: Rib Stitching
>
>
> Ron, Some have. I didn't, in fact it didn't occur to me at the time for
> some reason. My opinion on the subject: Not necessary. The dimensions are
> not great enough to allow much ballooning even if the fabric separated
> from
> the ribs.
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early Kitfox list
>> and I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I enjoyed
>> the process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it again. I
>> have to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have to start
>> over agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it was
>> brought to mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment. I did
>> stitch to the false ribs below the tanks by making various needle length
>> and shapes by flattening the end of a length of coat hanger drilling a
>> hole thriugh it deburring and sharpening the other end. I found that the
>> hardened needles would break rather than bend. Being able to bend the
>> needles got me around the drag-anti-drag tubes and other things I forgot
>> were in the wing.
>>
>> Lowell
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or re-covering?
>>> Would you use it again it again?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not a bad choice.
>>>>
>>>> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why
>>>> the flat cord is discouraged.
>>>>
>>>> Lowell
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
>>>> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who wants
>>>>> to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch the
>>>>> ribs sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that sound
>>>>> right the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold
>>>>> THANKS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jerry Evans
>>>>> kitfox 555
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 38
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Hi ! Bradley,
you wrote
The different size tanks are
the primary reason I wanted to select each tank
individually. I'm curious though if I used both together, what would
happen
when one goes empty? Would it suck a bubble though? Or just sit there,
while
the other tank with fuel in it fed the header? I didn't know, so I put
the
L-O-R valve in.
My thinking says if you fly wings level the two disimilar tanks will
empty the same time due to head pressure. If one tank either the larger
or the smaller has a higher head pressure that is where the fuel will
feed from.
As for sucking air I agree strange things do happen but again if one
tank is down to zero ie:- air then that should have no bearing stoping
the other tank feeding as it is higher head pressure.
I think using that word suck creates a problem in ones mind. I'm no
expert here but my understanding of fluid dynamics is you just don't use
such terminology as it creates confusion and in fact there is no such
thing as suck but only higher, equal and lower pressures. Look at it
this way and your problem is non existant. Obviously the tank with fuel
in it is the higher pressure. In any case what's stopping the higher
tank feeding the lower tank ? Higher to lower pressure ! In this case
your tanks empty the same time with your wings level.
I hope I'm not out of my depth here but I don't think you have a
legitimate concern even if you don't keep your wings level.
Rex.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Fact or Fiction |
John, some ski flying movie links there.
Enjoy, i did :) http://www.cfisher.com
And mine is a Deney Kit adn no where it mentions stitching.
I apppreciate your kind words.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fact or Fiction
>
> No offense taken... I think the question was to rib lace or not to rib
> lace.. not if one should buy an aircraft that was not rib laced... You are
> correct there are many, many Kitfox's that are not rib laced and the fact
> is
> (correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm sure someone will) Denny and early on
> SkyStar
> said that rib lacing was not required. Later, SkyStar recommended rib
> lacing and Kitfox aircraft recommends rib lacing.
> One thing that is often overlooked is the evolution of the Kitfox in such
> discussions. The Kitfox has gone from 850 lb gross, 70 mph speeds and
> Vne's
> of 90, to an aircraft that has a USEFUL load of almost the original gross
> weights and Vne speeds of 140 mph operating turbo engines and 140 hp
> Lycomings.
>
> Skis.... Now that sounds like fun !!! I'm looking forward for the floats
> in
> the spring.
>
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John McBean
> 208.337.5111
> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:24 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fact or Fiction
>
>
> One more thing ,
> Look at it from a potential buyer or Kit builder that is interested in a
> Kitfox and they read the mixed opinions of everyone it could in fact deter
> some buyers away.
>
> I personally think that the Kitfox is the best Kitplane on the used market
> for value as well as the Kits Stitched or not stitched.
>
> I appreciate the conerns of guys who fly 20 hours a year but hey we all
> got
> a great plane regardless.
>
> I have been around Kitfoxes/Avids/ Clones since the late 80s , maybe not
> on
> this list for too long but i guarantee that my 17 year in these plane
> alone give me a feel if what works and what does not.;
>
> No BS from me , just the facts and if i offend anyone I am truly sorry.
> I
> posted videos to try to help a few other like Guy who was taking 700 to
> 1000' to take off and I get alot of private emails from guys thnaking me
> and
> asking for more. I will do more hopefully this winter.
>
> I was out today in 7 inches of snow with the King fox Tires _ I Think
> the skis will be back on tomorrow.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
>
>>
>> John , it is not an issue,
>> I only stating that a vast majority of Kitfoxs are not stitched.
>> I certainly do not want to caue any concern for the many owners and
>> builders of these great planes.
>> I fly mine with out stitching over 250 to 300 hours per year and no
>> troubles.
>> If I was to recover would i stitch ? Possibly but in a 582 I doubt it.
>> The 1 inch wide capstrip does a excellent job at adhesion.
>> Look at many Ultralights with 1/2 " Round tube with fabric "glued to
>> them
>> only" not to mention alum ribs that are only 1/2 "
>>
>>
>> That is my ten cents worth,
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:45 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn.
>>> Poly
>>> Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
>>> methods.
>>>
>>> What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you
>>> get
>>> to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a
>>> few
>>> "approved" methods.
>>>
>>> Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time
>>> but I
>>> like the look..
>>>
>>> I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
>>> laced....
>>>
>>>
>>> Fly Safe !!
>>> John McBean
>>> 208.337.5111
>>> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
>>> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 9:31 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 9:31 AM
>
> --
> 9:31 AM
>
>
>
Message 40
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That message reads from
Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@...>
and your is ""From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net""
I can give you more but I won;t point has been made.
End of discusion ok ?
Regards,
Dave
Now if you wantd to look more
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/47605
same guy claim no stiching ?
The part I was referring to was the:
"FOLLOW THE
> >MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER.
"Do NOT glue to fabric to the cap strips"".
My point is that both Denney and Skystar say glue and probably more than 99
percent of Kitfox builders glued. For the life of me, I can't envision any
problem with that. If the builder thinks that is not enough then ribstitch.
It doesn't require a one or the other but not both decision.
In my experience, the Kitfox world has been pretty silent on capstrip fabric
glue failures. If this issue was a real issue, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> Well, I guess there are enough Lowells on the list to add an initial or
> two.
>
> I guess I,ll add an F to see if it clears up who is who.
>
> I fly a Model IV-1200 that I built between 1993 and 1998. I did rib
> stitch. Rotax 912 powered it has 830 hours on it to date.
>
> Lowell F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
>>
>> Lowell are you the same guy here?
>> Just curious ,
>> Dave
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/29348
>> Re: Rib Stitching
>>
>>
>> Ron, Some have. I didn't, in fact it didn't occur to me at the time for
>> some reason. My opinion on the subject: Not necessary. The dimensions are
>> not great enough to allow much ballooning even if the fabric separated
>> from
>> the ribs.
>>
>> Lowell
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early Kitfox list
>>> and I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I enjoyed
>>> the process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it again.
>>> I have to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have to
>>> start over agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it
>>> was brought to mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment.
>>> I did stitch to the false ribs below the tanks by making various needle
>>> length and shapes by flattening the end of a length of coat hanger
>>> drilling a hole thriugh it deburring and sharpening the other end. I
>>> found that the hardened needles would break rather than bend. Being
>>> able to bend the needles got me around the drag-anti-drag tubes and
>>> other things I forgot were in the wing.
>>>
>>> Lowell
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or re-covering?
>>>> Would you use it again it again?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not a bad choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as why
>>>>> the flat cord is discouraged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lowell
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who
>>>>>> wants to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will stitch
>>>>>> the ribs sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace, that
>>>>>> sound right the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm sold
>>>>>> THANKS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jerry Evans
>>>>>> kitfox 555
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fact or Fiction - to Mcbean |
John I do admire your comments and your continutiy over the years
2003 you said exactly the same thing.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/47576
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fact or Fiction
>
> No offense taken... I think the question was to rib lace or not to rib
> lace.. not if one should buy an aircraft that was not rib laced... You are
> correct there are many, many Kitfox's that are not rib laced and the fact
> is
> (correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm sure someone will) Denny and early on
> SkyStar
> said that rib lacing was not required. Later, SkyStar recommended rib
> lacing and Kitfox aircraft recommends rib lacing.
> One thing that is often overlooked is the evolution of the Kitfox in such
> discussions. The Kitfox has gone from 850 lb gross, 70 mph speeds and
> Vne's
> of 90, to an aircraft that has a USEFUL load of almost the original gross
> weights and Vne speeds of 140 mph operating turbo engines and 140 hp
> Lycomings.
>
> Skis.... Now that sounds like fun !!! I'm looking forward for the floats
> in
> the spring.
>
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John McBean
> 208.337.5111
> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:24 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fact or Fiction
>
>
> One more thing ,
> Look at it from a potential buyer or Kit builder that is interested in a
> Kitfox and they read the mixed opinions of everyone it could in fact deter
> some buyers away.
>
> I personally think that the Kitfox is the best Kitplane on the used market
> for value as well as the Kits Stitched or not stitched.
>
> I appreciate the conerns of guys who fly 20 hours a year but hey we all
> got
> a great plane regardless.
>
> I have been around Kitfoxes/Avids/ Clones since the late 80s , maybe not
> on
> this list for too long but i guarantee that my 17 year in these plane
> alone give me a feel if what works and what does not.;
>
> No BS from me , just the facts and if i offend anyone I am truly sorry.
> I
> posted videos to try to help a few other like Guy who was taking 700 to
> 1000' to take off and I get alot of private emails from guys thnaking me
> and
> asking for more. I will do more hopefully this winter.
>
> I was out today in 7 inches of snow with the King fox Tires _ I Think
> the skis will be back on tomorrow.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>
>
>>
>> John , it is not an issue,
>> I only stating that a vast majority of Kitfoxs are not stitched.
>> I certainly do not want to caue any concern for the many owners and
>> builders of these great planes.
>> I fly mine with out stitching over 250 to 300 hours per year and no
>> troubles.
>> If I was to recover would i stitch ? Possibly but in a 582 I doubt it.
>> The 1 inch wide capstrip does a excellent job at adhesion.
>> Look at many Ultralights with 1/2 " Round tube with fabric "glued to
>> them
>> only" not to mention alum ribs that are only 1/2 "
>>
>>
>> That is my ten cents worth,
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:45 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: stitching ribs
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Why is this an issue?... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you get to learn.
>>> Poly
>>> Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a few "approved"
>>> methods.
>>>
>>> What is Kitfox Aircrafts point of view... Rib Lace ! It's fun and you
>>> get
>>> to learn. Poly Fiber recommends a mechanical attachment and there are a
>>> few
>>> "approved" methods.
>>>
>>> Round cord or flat cord... I like the flat... takes a little more time
>>> but I
>>> like the look..
>>>
>>> I have never looked out at the wings and said... I wish I hadn't rib
>>> laced....
>>>
>>>
>>> Fly Safe !!
>>> John McBean
>>> 208.337.5111
>>> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
>>> "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 9:31 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 9:31 AM
>
> --
> 9:31 AM
>
>
>
Message 42
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|
Dave, as I read Lowell's post in the archives he was referring to the
horizontal stab?
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
> That message reads from
>
> Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@...>
> and your is ""From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net""
>
> I can give you more but I won;t point has been made.
>
> End of discusion ok ?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
> Now if you wantd to look more
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/47605
> same guy claim no stiching ?
> The part I was referring to was the:
>
> "FOLLOW THE
> > >MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER.
>
> "Do NOT glue to fabric to the cap strips"".
>
> My point is that both Denney and Skystar say glue and probably more than
99
> percent of Kitfox builders glued. For the life of me, I can't envision any
> problem with that. If the builder thinks that is not enough then
ribstitch.
> It doesn't require a one or the other but not both decision.
>
> In my experience, the Kitfox world has been pretty silent on capstrip
fabric
> glue failures. If this issue was a real issue, we wouldn't be having this
> discussion.
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
>
>
> >
> > Well, I guess there are enough Lowells on the list to add an initial or
> > two.
> >
> > I guess I,ll add an F to see if it clears up who is who.
> >
> > I fly a Model IV-1200 that I built between 1993 and 1998. I did rib
> > stitch. Rotax 912 powered it has 830 hours on it to date.
> >
> > Lowell F
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Lowell are you the same guy here?
> >> Just curious ,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitfoxlist/message/29348
> >> Re: Rib Stitching
> >>
> >>
> >> Ron, Some have. I didn't, in fact it didn't occur to me at the time for
> >> some reason. My opinion on the subject: Not necessary. The dimensions
are
> >> not great enough to allow much ballooning even if the fabric separated
> >> from
> >> the ribs.
> >>
> >> Lowell
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:37 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >>
> >>
<lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>
> >>> Dave,
> >>>
> >>> I was building. As I said, the subject came up on the early Kitfox
list
> >>> and I was swayed by the various posts. I used the flat cord. I
enjoyed
> >>> the process, had no particlular trouble with it and would do it again.
> >>> I have to say though that it was long enough ago that I would have to
> >>> start over agian learning the knots. One thing I did remember and it
> >>> was brought to mind by the can't ribstitch through wing tanks comment.
> >>> I did stitch to the false ribs below the tanks by making various
needle
> >>> length and shapes by flattening the end of a length of coat hanger
> >>> drilling a hole thriugh it deburring and sharpening the other end. I
> >>> found that the hardened needles would break rather than bend. Being
> >>> able to bend the needles got me around the drag-anti-drag tubes and
> >>> other things I forgot were in the wing.
> >>>
> >>> Lowell
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
> >>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:32 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Lowell, did you use the flat stitch cord while building or
re-covering?
> >>>> Would you use it again it again?
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:36 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not a bad choice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I did use the flat rib stitching cord, I am just a bit curious as
why
> >>>>> the flat cord is discouraged.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lowell
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "jerry evans" <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Kitfox-List: rib stitch
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for all the input lots of good information, for those who
> >>>>>> wants to know ;I feel that Don Smythe said it best and I will
stitch
> >>>>>> the ribs sound like fun anyway, someone said not use flat lace,
that
> >>>>>> sound right the safety and know it can't hurt and the looks I'm
sold
> >>>>>> THANKS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jerry Evans
> >>>>>> kitfox 555
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 43
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You're right, I shouldn't have said "suck" fuel. Probably no issue, but I
figured the valve was easy to plumb in, and I like the idea of being in
control of it, and I have a little redundancy if one tank goes, or a cap
gets left off or skewed. With the different sized tanks, I can control the
weight imbalance to a certain extent. Haven't needed to yet, but just in
case. I just basically designed my system to know exactly what I have, and
the ability to control it, or fix a possible problem by switching tanks.
It's not totally fool proof, but.
I do like the idea of you guys who can just use both at the same time, and
the header stays full with no input. I may go that route at some point, just
to not mess with it. But I'd like to have equal volume tanks on both sides.
Bradley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Shaw
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Different tanks
Hi ! Bradley,
you wrote
The different size tanks are the
primary reason I wanted to select each tank
individually. I'm curious though if I used both together, what would happen
when one goes empty? Would it suck a bubble though? Or just sit there, while
the other tank with fuel in it fed the header? I didn't know, so I put the
L-O-R valve in.
My thinking says if you fly wings level the two disimilar tanks will empty
the same time due to head pressure. If one tank either the larger or the
smaller has a higher head pressure that is where the fuel will feed from.
As for sucking air I agree strange things do happen but again if one tank is
down to zero ie:- air then that should have no bearing stoping the other
tank feeding as it is higher head pressure.
I think using that word suck creates a problem in ones mind. I'm no expert
here but my understanding of fluid dynamics is you just don't use such
terminology as it creates confusion and in fact there is no such thing as
suck but only higher, equal and lower pressures. Look at it this way and
your problem is non existant. Obviously the tank with fuel in it is the
higher pressure. In any case what's stopping the higher tank feeding the
lower tank ? Higher to lower pressure ! In this case your tanks empty the
same time with your wings level.
I hope I'm not out of my depth here but I don't think you have a legitimate
concern even if you don't keep your wings level.
Rex.
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