---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/10/07: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:38 AM - Re: GPS (Michel Verheughe) 2. 12:42 AM - Re: Lynn's skis (Michel Verheughe) 3. 04:07 AM - Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) 4. 04:51 AM - Airport access (Floyd Johnson) 5. 05:00 AM - Re: GPS (dave) 6. 05:01 AM - POSTPONED FLYIN !!! t: Ski Flyin this Weekend in Central Ontario (dave) 7. 05:16 AM - Re: Need airport access ideas...help (kirk hull) 8. 05:40 AM - Re: GPS (Bob) 9. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: Need airport access ideas...help (Glenn Horne) 10. 05:57 AM - Transponder Question (Roger McConnell) 11. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) 12. 06:28 AM - Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) 13. 06:29 AM - Re: Transponder Question (Guy Buchanan) 14. 06:30 AM - Re: Transponder Question (Michel Verheughe) 15. 08:19 AM - Re: Need airport access ideas...help (Tom Jones) 16. 08:51 AM - Re: Need airport access ideas...help (kitfoxmike) 17. 09:02 AM - Re: Transponder Question (Alan Daniels) 18. 09:46 AM - Re: Need airport access ideas...help (Marco Menezes) 19. 10:50 AM - Re: GPS (Randy Daughenbaugh) 20. 12:44 PM - Re: GPS (Michel Verheughe) 21. 01:30 PM - Re: Warming Cold Engine (Sjklerks@aol.com) 22. 01:48 PM - Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) 23. 02:18 PM - Re: Warming Cold Engine (Leroy Kopecky) 24. 02:47 PM - Re: GPS (Michel Verheughe) 25. 03:06 PM - Re: GPS (Randy Daughenbaugh) 26. 03:16 PM - Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) 27. 03:17 PM - Re: GPS- Randy (dave) 28. 03:23 PM - Re: GPS (dave) 29. 03:28 PM - Re: GPS (dave) 30. 06:27 PM - Re: Re: Need airport access ideas...help (john perry) 31. 07:37 PM - Re: ASI's and Altimeter Calibration (Jim Corner) 32. 07:58 PM - Re: GPS (Lynn Matteson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:45 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Kurt, Dave and Lynn, On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:34 PM, kurt schrader wrote: > But at a guess, I'd say you are seeing some reflecting > signals off the water confusing your GPS a bit. You are into something, Kurt! When I flew to Belgium, I noticed that the "breadcrumbs" of the GPS moving map, where scattered over a certain area of my flight over Germany. It started exactly at the edge of a muddy bay and ended exactly at it's end. Now, this is a tidal North Sea cove that nearly entirely dries out at low tide. And it was low tide: very wet mud. Lynn, such magnetic disturbances are not uncommon. I know of an important one off the coast of Portugal. While I agree with Garmin that a lot of things can affect the GPS signal reception, I really doubt that this magnetic abnormality is the cause because, while an uneven ferrous terrain will deviate the compass, it is not producing by itself a magnetic field. Then the magnetic field from the Garmin screen should be much more influential on you GPS antenna because much, much closer! If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of something in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS with PocketFMS software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non-flying. What's yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is disturbed by whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive positions but it would be very weird if none of those came under your lowest level of speed for being airborne. Cheers, Michel Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:06 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lynn's skis On Feb 10, 2007, at 2:20 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > I think that they do, Michel. They probably act like keels on a boat, > eh? Yep, pretty much like a long keeler vs. a fin keel sailboat. Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:42 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS In a previous response from Garmin Tech Support, they told me that the unit starts a flight when it sees 500 feet AGL, and assuming that it quits the flight when you descend to 500 feet AGL, the flight into Escanaba should have been recorded. The response was to a question that I had about the flight log. First some background info. My uncharted, private field is about 2.5 miles from a charted airport. My flight log often shows me taking off or landing at this charted airport, when in fact I have been doing (for example) pattern work at my field. This is annoying, but I live with it. When I asked Garmin about this problem, they told me about the 500-foot thing. They told me to use an "airport identifier symbol" to mark my field, and to be sure that I entered an elevation for my field. Here is their response: "One thing that you will need to make sure is that you have entered a elevation for your airport. If the elevation is wrong or missing then it will pull the closest airport. Also if a public airport and a private airport are close like the situation that you have described here then the unit will prefer the public airport over the private airport." I didn't keep their response regarding the identifier symbol or the 500-foot elevation for the flight log starting point...I wish I had. In regards to the "scattered successive positions", I did indeed have the breadcrumb trail interrupted on one leg of the trip, but I just figured that a mouse got on board somehow, and was having a party. : ) Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of > something in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS > with PocketFMS software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non- > flying. What's yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is > disturbed by whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive > positions but it would be very weird if none of those came under > your lowest level of speed for being airborne. > > Cheers, > Michel > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:22 AM PST US From: "Floyd Johnson" Subject: Kitfox-List: Airport access Have you considered involving the AOPA? They handle these issues well every day. Floyd Johnson kitfox69@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:22 AM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Lynn, We that discussion a few weeks ago about my Garmin 196 -- I pointed out to Michel that my does not log unless over 500 AGL and over 30 knots speed. The latter is a given but the 500 AGL is something that I don't always see on short flights. Surely you were over 500 AGL ? Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those settings in the Garmin. You can alter the VNAV settings though and set up some non precision approaches. I have some set up now and at 500 feet agl and 1 Mile back I am usually within 1/8 mile of the runway centreline. Mind you, I have set these up for grass strips and Lakes where I frequent. Certainnly not a ILS approach but helpful. Happy Flying !! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:09 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > In a previous response from Garmin Tech Support, they told me that the > unit starts a flight when it sees 500 feet AGL, and assuming that it > quits the flight when you descend to 500 feet AGL, the flight into > Escanaba should have been recorded. > The response was to a question that I had about the flight log. First > some background info. My uncharted, private field is about 2.5 miles from > a charted airport. My flight log often shows me taking off or landing at > this charted airport, when in fact I have been doing (for example) > pattern work at my field. This is annoying, but I live with it. When I > asked Garmin about this problem, they told me about the 500-foot thing. > They told me to use an "airport identifier symbol" to mark my field, and > to be sure that I entered an elevation for my field. Here is their > response: > > "One thing that you will need to make sure is that you have entered a > elevation for your airport. If the elevation is wrong or missing then it > will pull the closest airport. Also if a public airport and a private > airport are close like the situation that you have described here then > the > unit will prefer the public airport over the private airport." > > I didn't keep their response regarding the identifier symbol or the > 500-foot elevation for the flight log starting point...I wish I had. > > In regards to the "scattered successive positions", I did indeed have the > breadcrumb trail interrupted on one leg of the trip, but I just figured > that a mouse got on board somehow, and was having a party. : ) > > Lynn > do not archive > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > >> >> If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of something >> in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS with PocketFMS >> software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non- flying. What's >> yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is disturbed by >> whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive positions but it would >> be very weird if none of those came under your lowest level of speed for >> being airborne. >> >> Cheers, >> Michel >> >> Do not archive >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:35 AM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Kitfox-List: POSTPONED FLYIN !!! t: Ski Flyin this Weekend in Central Ontario I just posted thi back to Group ...................... I was going to go to day but I thought it looked like windy and snow squalls likely. Deep snow ? We had 2 feet in Dec and no issues reallyf Here is some movies http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/ Some pics from last years fly in http://www.cfisher.com/mudlake.htm Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: gary wolf To: national@raa.ca ; RAA Announcement List Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:32 AM Subject: [RAA-N] Ski fly-in postponed Event postponed February 10, Penetanguishene, ON: Midland RAA annual ski fly-in and BBQ is taking place at St. Andrews (Mud) Lake. Date is tentative for ice and weather consideration. Event will move to Sunday 11th if necessary due to adverse conditions and even weekend to weekend as necessary to hold the event. Start 10 a.m. and BBQ from 11a.m. 'till noon. Ending when the last guys toes get cold! Lake is located 0.75 Miles East of Town Water Tower and 1 Mile South of the Mental Health Centre. 0.75 miles West of N44-47-906 W79-53-434 n/a Irish Field. For more information contact Paul Turner at 705-322-1149, Bruce Tinney at 705-526-6019 or email turnerpontiac@aol.ca. Due to excessive powder snow conditions we have cancelled this weekend and moved to the following weekend on the 17th hoping the snow firms up a bit. ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Ski Flyin this Weekend in Central Ontario > Anyone planning on flying in here ? I am undecided so far . > > Pics from Last year http://www.cfisher.com/mudlake.htm > > Dave > > > February 10, Penetanguishene, ON: COPA Flight 73's annual ski fly-in and > BBQ > is taking place at St. Andrews (Mud) Lake. Date is tentative for ice and > weather consideration. Event will move to Sunday 11th if necessary due to > adverse conditions and even weekend to weekend as necessary to hold the > event. Start 10 a.m. and BBQ from 11a.m. 'till noon. Ending when the last > guys toes get cold! Lake is located 0.75 Miles East of Town Water Tower > and > 1 Mile South of the Mental Health Centre. 0.75 miles West of N44-47-906 > W79-53-434 n/a Irish Field. For more information contact Paul Turner at > 705-322-1149, Bruce Tinney at 705-526-6019 or email turnerpontiac@aol.ca. > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:54 AM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Need airport access ideas...help Sounds a lot like 0N0(zero November Zero) in liberty MO. (roosterville) the only dif is that we do pay some taxes but the hangers cost $65 a month -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray B. McKinley Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Need airport access ideas...help Hi I am moving to the Bend OR area for that very reason the airport which I am close to has a very limited access and you only get the code if you pay a monthly tie down fee. I keep my Kitfox at home and do not feel obligated to pay there fee. There for I am obligated to find a lonely country road and fly from it. This is far from acceptable as I pay taxes that support the locale airport and should have access to it weather or not I keep the plane there or not. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Daniels Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need airport access ideas...help I have an idea. Move to Ontario Oregon ONO. We actually like airplanes here. We have no sales tax, no property tax on planes, and we only charge less than 12 cents a square foot per year for space to build a hangar, or $150 a year for a nice tie down space. We usually have hangar space for $100 to $125 a month, but they are all full now. We have no gates or fences, we have picnic tables, grass, and trees. We have a very nice community with a very low cost of housing and the best flying weather in the country, and we are within an hour flying of some of the best flying in the world. IMHO Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:10 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GPS From: "Bob" Around here, we use hand-held GPS units for guidance, but have learned to not trust them. Friends and I have discussed seeing hand-held GPS units lock up or jump positions. My own units that have done this are a Garmin RINO 120 (hiking unit) on the motorcycle and Anywheremap in the cockpit. I know of an older Garmin aviation hand-held doing the same and my old instructor talked about seeing it, I think on his Lowrance 500. Living in the "occupied territory" north of Washington DC (Disney Central), knowledge of how close we are to the special use airspace is all that stands between us and a formation flight with a helicopter, or loss of our pilot license, so most of the locals either know absolutely where they are from experience or keep a paper map (even outdated) on their lap while the GPS is on. Typically, you're moving along, the countryside is going by, and you suddenly realize that the map hasn't shown movement. As I understand, the maps are electronically "stitched" together and every now and then the process stops to think or just stops. Note that this is only for hand-helds. With a panel-mounted IFR receiver, I have heard stories about scattered tracks and have seen signal loss (disappearance of the airplane icon), but never frozen icon. On a related aspect, keep the tracks that the GPS records if you are ever even marginally near special use airspace. The FAA regularly seems to mix up N-numbers and accuse people of going where they shouldn't. That's a fight that you can't win without knowing how to secure radar records which may be over-written by the time they call, or having the track history from yur GPS. Bob -------- Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94116#94116 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:07 AM PST US From: "Glenn Horne" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help Threaten to sue, and they will open the gate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:29 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help > > At 06:37 PM 2/9/2007, you wrote: >>Lets hear some more arguments for a key to the airport for now. Do not >>archive. > As I told Ray, you might want to contact the local DA. I'm trying to > remember if you have a legal right to access to public property. (Law > school was a long time ago.) I know they've got security concerns, but I > don't think paying a tie-down fee quite qualifies as a background check. > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:10 AM PST US From: "Roger McConnell" Subject: Kitfox-List: Transponder Question Help me out here guys and gals. I'm getting ready to purchase a transponder for my plane and was wondering; will a transponder rated for 14 volts work in a 12 volt system?? I know how a transponder works but I've never installed one.....help. Also can someone recommend a good make or model that doesn't cost an arm or a leg? Thanks Roger Mac N619RM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:19 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: GPS I think I read somewhere that you can download the tracks, or for that matter any info on the GPS, into your PC and print it out. Unfortunately, I'm on a Macintosh, but I have friends who are on PC's, and could probably do it there. Garmin was supposed to come out with Mac-compatible software (?), but I haven't heard of it yet. Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Bob wrote: > > > On a related aspect, keep the tracks that the GPS records if you > are ever even marginally near special use airspace. The FAA > regularly seems to mix up N-numbers and accuse people of going > where they shouldn't. That's a fight that you can't win without > knowing how to secure radar records which may be over-written by > the time they call, or having the track history from yur GPS. > > Bob > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:09 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Over 500 AGL? Yeah, about 5000-7000 over 500AGL...I got up to 8200' MSL at one point when trying to keep the clouds below me...while of course keeping the surface in view. I'll look into the settings page on my 296 to see if there are any changes that I can make....thanks Dave. When I lift off at my home field, I'm about 500 AGL when I'm within the area of the charted field that I mentioned, which is why the unit thinks that I just departed from that charted field. If I take off in an easterly direction, away from the charted field, the unit will SOMETIMES say that I left MY field, sometimes not...toss a coin. : ) Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:58 AM, dave wrote: > > Surely you were over 500 AGL ? > > Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those > settings in the Garmin. > > You can alter the VNAV settings though and set up some non > precision approaches. I have some set up now and at 500 feet > agl and 1 Mile back I am usually within 1/8 mile of the runway > centreline. Mind you, I have set these up for grass strips and > Lakes where I frequent. Certainnly not a ILS approach but helpful. > > Happy Flying !! > > Dave > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:44 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Transponder Question At 05:54 AM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >Help me out here guys and gals. I=92m getting >ready to purchase a transponder for my plane and >was wondering; will a transponder rated for 14 >volts work in a 12 volt system?? Yes. >I know how a transponder works but I=92ve never >installed one=85=85=85..help. Also can someone >recommend a good make or model that doesn=92t cost an arm or a leg? I bought a Becker because it was small and light. And it only cost an arm and my leg up to the knee! You get to decide which leg, though. There were some much cheaper on the used market, though for the utility it always seems like they cost too much. Keep a close watch on Ebay and Google; though with electronics you sometimes get what you pay for. (Horror story of purchasing radios that were salvaged from a submerged aircraft. They worked, but for how long. . .) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:45 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Transponder Question > From: Roger McConnell [rdmac@swbell.net] > Help me out here guys and gals. I'm getting ready to purchase a transponder > for my plane and was wondering; will a transponder rated for 14 volts work > in a 12 volt system?? Yes, Roger, it will. When you fly, your regulator sends about 14 V to your battery ... otherwise, it wouldn't charge at all. I am not updated with the best transponder on the market but I can tell you what I did when I installed my old yellow-tagged Cessna transponder: I installed the antenna under the fuselage and with a ground plane consisting of a thin aluminium disk of about one foot diameter, on the top of it. I never got a complain from ATC, it works just fine and dandy. Probably better than my radio, when I think of it. Cheers, Michel
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:44 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help From: "Tom Jones" > What do they do for people who fly in after FBO hours? People that fly in use the walk through gates. I need to use the drive through gate to get my Kitfox through on a trailer. > Security is an issue > particularly if the airport has scheduled airline flights, but usually > the GA area is separate but is still an issue. The reason the airport manager gave me for the key policy is that it is a security issue. There are no airline flights at this airport and the fence is not going to keep terriorists out. I will gladly submit to the same security screeneing they give the airport tennants, whatever that is. I was a federal employee for 31 years so my finger prints are already on file. > Threaten to sue, and they will open the gate. I am going to try to smother them with politness first. It will be a struggle for me to not be scarcastic though. My mouth has gotten me in trouble before. Do not archive Tom Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94141#94141 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:23 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help From: "kitfoxmike" Sorry people, I think being nice will get you a lot further than the rough and grough. The experience I've had with airports, both spokane international and Felts, says this is true. With just the controllers, if I'm nice, which I always am, I basically get to do anything I want when flying, of course safety comes first, but when I make a request, 90% or better of the time I get it. I believe the same is true with the managers, you upset them, they will make your life miserable. What Tom wants here is a place to fly the airplane, yes he might need to pay a small fee for tie up, but look at it this way, when he doesn't want to load up the plane and take it home, he can just tie it up and go home and have it ready to go in the morning. And... he won't have to worry about is pride and joy because it's all locked up inside the airport. Lot's of crazy, inconsiderate poeple roming the streets, that would like to do nothing more than distroy something, just for the fun of it. And... sometimes a stupid fence will keep them out. I rent a hangar for 200+ a month, but, I get to fly a whole lot more because the airplane is 5 minutes from my house, and 15 minutes from my shop. So, what does this mean to me, well, I take an hour and a half for lunch and fly for a half hour many times. I wake up in the morning at 5, and fly for an hour before work, generally in the summer time, and then after work I'll fly again for an hour. The hangar is really worth it to me. Another thing I do is look over on the plane at the end of the day when life isn't so busy, I'll fuel it up, do a walk around, repair or maintain whatever when things are at it's worse for flying. Then I have the security that no one has bothered the plane and when I pull it out the next day, it's ready to go and I don't have to worry about it. Generally just a quick look see and a check of the fuel caps and away I go. I quess it's what is your priority in life. Right now it's flying for me. Tom, If you are in the Spokane area with your fox, write to me before you come and we will do some flying together, I would love to take you around and show you some of our area. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94150#94150 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:51 AM PST US From: Alan Daniels Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Transponder Question I like the King KT-76A transponder. You will also need an encoder and it is well worth the money to have it pre-wired so all you have to do is hook up the power and ground. Roger McConnell wrote: > > Help me out here guys and gals. Im getting ready to purchase a > transponder for my plane and was wondering; will a transponder rated > for 14 volts work in a 12 volt system?? I know how a transponder works > but Ive never installed one..help. Also can someone recommend a > good make or model that doesnt cost an arm or a leg? Thanks > > Roger Mac > > N619RM > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:09 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need airport access ideas...help Here are some arguments, Tom: * your tax dollars support the airport. * no compelling reason to treat you differently than tenants. * increased useage of facilities can translate into increased FAA funding. * Less restrictive means are available to achieve airport security goals. * Use numerical combination lock on at least one gate (like on many GA terminal buidings) and publish combo in airport directory. * This policy is "elitist" at a time when GA airports need all the support they can get. Good luck! do not archive Tom Jones wrote: One of the main reasons I chose to build a Kitfox was the ability to fold it up and keep it at home. This made owning an airplane affordable for me. I will be ready to start flying soon and have found that I am locked out of our local airport. The county's policy is that Keys to the airport gates are issued only to hanger and tie down tennants. The airport manager does not see this as an issue. She said I can ask someone at the FBO to open a gate each time I want in or out. This is not acceptable to me. Not only is it a huge inconvienence for both me and the FBO, I am restricted to having airport access during the FBO's business hours only...9 to 5 Mon through Sat...closed Sun. I plan to attend the Airport Advisory Committee's meeting on Feb. 13 to ask that they propose a change in this policy to the County commisioners. I would like to hear some good ideas on arguments for me to present. I plan to be nice and polite. Tom Jones, Classic 4, Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94024#94024 Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:30 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Somebody please educate me. The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it doesn't have ground level data in it. (???) (You can get a USGS data base and load into to it so you have contour data, but if you don't have that how can it tell how for above ground you are?) Randy - My field is at 4400' . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:58 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Lynn, We that discussion a few weeks ago about my Garmin 196 -- I pointed out to Michel that my does not log unless over 500 AGL and over 30 knots speed. The latter is a given but the 500 AGL is something that I don't always see on short flights. Surely you were over 500 AGL ? Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those settings in the Garmin. You can alter the VNAV settings though and set up some non precision approaches. I have some set up now and at 500 feet agl and 1 Mile back I am usually within 1/8 mile of the runway centreline. Mind you, I have set these up for grass strips and Lakes where I frequent. Certainnly not a ILS approach but helpful. Happy Flying !! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:09 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > In a previous response from Garmin Tech Support, they told me that the > unit starts a flight when it sees 500 feet AGL, and assuming that it > quits the flight when you descend to 500 feet AGL, the flight into > Escanaba should have been recorded. > The response was to a question that I had about the flight log. First > some background info. My uncharted, private field is about 2.5 miles from > a charted airport. My flight log often shows me taking off or landing at > this charted airport, when in fact I have been doing (for example) > pattern work at my field. This is annoying, but I live with it. When I > asked Garmin about this problem, they told me about the 500-foot thing. > They told me to use an "airport identifier symbol" to mark my field, and > to be sure that I entered an elevation for my field. Here is their > response: > > "One thing that you will need to make sure is that you have entered a > elevation for your airport. If the elevation is wrong or missing then it > will pull the closest airport. Also if a public airport and a private > airport are close like the situation that you have described here then > the > unit will prefer the public airport over the private airport." > > I didn't keep their response regarding the identifier symbol or the > 500-foot elevation for the flight log starting point...I wish I had. > > In regards to the "scattered successive positions", I did indeed have the > breadcrumb trail interrupted on one leg of the trip, but I just figured > that a mouse got on board somehow, and was having a party. : ) > > Lynn > do not archive > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > >> >> If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of something >> in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS with PocketFMS >> software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non- flying. What's >> yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is disturbed by >> whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive positions but it would >> be very weird if none of those came under your lowest level of speed for >> being airborne. >> >> Cheers, >> Michel >> >> Do not archive >> > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:12 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it > doesn't > have ground level data in it. (???) From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at, or in the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is known and in the database. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:29 PM PST US From: Sjklerks@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warming Cold Engine Hi Leroy, I use a 1500 watt portable heater. I connected a piece of alum dryer vent hose onto it, stick in the bottom of the cowling. also put some old blankets around the cowling to help keep the heat in. Start up the gen, then 45 to 60 min later it starts with no problem's. The temp gauge reads around 120 degrees. Jim Do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:51 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS I just got the Instruction Manual out for my 296 (when all else fails....), and under "Viewing the Flight Log" it says, "Recording begins when your speed exceeds 30 knots and you gain 500 feet of altitude." Further on..."If you land and groundspeed drops below 30 knots, the flight entry is saved and a new entry will be recorded when you depart the airport. A touch-and-go or brief stop of less than ten minutes appends to the current flight record rather than starting a new entry." This is contrary to what I encountered during my recent trip, but that's electronics for you. And while we're on the subject, I flew to an uncharted field today, (with lots of snow on it, finally!) landed and stayed for an hour. I left there, and came home, landing on the lake. Took off from there after another hour stop, and put the plane away. My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. Took off from 3NP, and flew Local. In reality, I had first landed between JXN and JYM. If someone looked at this flight log, they would think I trailered the plane between the 20-miles-apart airports. Again, fun with electronics. : ) Just another reason to record your flights in your logbook soon after you park the airplane, lest you forget where you went or how you got there. : ) Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: >> The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it >> doesn't >> have ground level data in it. (???) > > From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the > instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at, > or in the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is > known and in the database. > > Cheers, > Michel > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:15 PM PST US From: "Leroy Kopecky" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warming Cold Engine Jim: This is exactly the set up I have, but haven't used yet. Thanks for confirming that there are two of us who think alike. Did you or anyone ever hear of a magnetic heater? If so, what's the evidence say? LeRoy P. Kopecky ----- Original Message ----- From: Sjklerks@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warming Cold Engine Hi Leroy, I use a 1500 watt portable heater. I connected a piece of alum dryer vent hose onto it, stick in the bottom of the cowling. also put some old blankets around the cowling to help keep the heat in. Start up the gen, then 45 to 60 min later it starts with no problem's. The temp gauge reads around 120 degrees. Jim Do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:48 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off > from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush fields as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to register it. In other words, the instrument is not made for bush planes like the Kitfox. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:28 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Ah yes, the airport elevation.... yup, that is in the database. I guess I overlooked that since I land at so many places that are not "airports". Randy Do not archive . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it > doesn't > have ground level data in it. (???) From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at, or in the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is known and in the database. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:26 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Right you are Michel...no complaints there, but it was interesting to point out that I "landed" at JXN (10 miles to the NE), but "took off" from JYM (10 miles to the SW). Apparently the unit flipped a coin to see which one I was really at and the coin landed on its edge. : ) Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took >> off from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. > > Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush > fields as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to > register it. In other words, the instrument is not made for bush > planes like the Kitfox. > > Cheers, > Michel > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:33 PM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS- Randy Well, you got a point there but if you depart my field at 955' and never go over 1455 by the altimter in the GPS it will not record your flight. I think my 196 has ground contours as well on the moving map you you know what the ground elevation is or you any close referance point s like towers. Does thast answer your question ? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 1:49 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS > > > Somebody please educate me. > > The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it doesn't > have ground level data in it. (???) (You can get a USGS data base and > load into to it so you have contour data, but if you don't have that how > can > it tell how for above ground you are?) > > Randy - My field is at 4400' > > > . > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:58 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > > Lynn, > > We that discussion a few weeks ago about my Garmin 196 -- > I pointed out to Michel that my does not log unless over 500 AGL and over > 30 knots speed. > The latter is a given but the 500 AGL is something that I don't always see > on short flights. > > Surely you were over 500 AGL ? > > Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those settings > in > > the Garmin. > > You can alter the VNAV settings though and set up some non precision > approaches. I have some set up now and at 500 feet agl and 1 Mile > back > I am usually within 1/8 mile of the runway centreline. Mind you, I > have > > set these up for grass strips and Lakes where I frequent. Certainnly not > a > ILS approach but helpful. > > Happy Flying !! > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:09 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > >> >> In a previous response from Garmin Tech Support, they told me that the >> unit starts a flight when it sees 500 feet AGL, and assuming that it >> quits the flight when you descend to 500 feet AGL, the flight into >> Escanaba should have been recorded. >> The response was to a question that I had about the flight log. First >> some background info. My uncharted, private field is about 2.5 miles >> from > >> a charted airport. My flight log often shows me taking off or landing at >> this charted airport, when in fact I have been doing (for example) >> pattern work at my field. This is annoying, but I live with it. When I >> asked Garmin about this problem, they told me about the 500-foot thing. >> They told me to use an "airport identifier symbol" to mark my field, and >> to be sure that I entered an elevation for my field. Here is their >> response: >> >> "One thing that you will need to make sure is that you have entered a >> elevation for your airport. If the elevation is wrong or missing then >> it >> will pull the closest airport. Also if a public airport and a private >> airport are close like the situation that you have described here then >> the >> unit will prefer the public airport over the private airport." >> >> I didn't keep their response regarding the identifier symbol or the >> 500-foot elevation for the flight log starting point...I wish I had. >> >> In regards to the "scattered successive positions", I did indeed have >> the > >> breadcrumb trail interrupted on one leg of the trip, but I just figured >> that a mouse got on board somehow, and was having a party. : ) >> >> Lynn >> do not archive >> >> On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: >> >>> >>> If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of something >>> in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS with PocketFMS >>> software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non- flying. What's >>> yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is disturbed by >>> whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive positions but it would >>> be very weird if none of those came under your lowest level of speed >>> for > >>> being airborne. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michel >>> >>> Do not archive >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:28 PM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Michel , I will add when I am on floats in Lakes the elevation on the GPS is pretty close. I have use Google Earth and it shows the same . Some how the moving map is tied into the elevation with referance to the GPS co-ordinates I guess. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off >> from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. > > Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush fields > as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to register it. In > other words, the instrument is not made for bush planes like the Kitfox. > > Cheers, > Michel > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:10 PM PST US From: "dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Lynn , you might have a setting that is off a bit . I will have to pull mine out one day and run it on a program I have and it will show a map with every track on it. My wife runs X - country and she has a GPS wristband and if you look at the log of her track it shows the elevations of the hills in our woods up and down again. Although her signal fades in the bush a bit when the leaves are full but she says rgiht now it works fine. Amazing toys we got !! I will that GPS makes you a lazy navigator and you better know dead reckoning and have maps with you or you going to be lost if your GPS dies. I have a NAV/Com as well and rarely use the VOR Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS > > Right you are Michel...no complaints there, but it was interesting to > point out that I "landed" at JXN (10 miles to the NE), but "took off" > from JYM (10 miles to the SW). Apparently the unit flipped a coin to see > which one I was really at and the coin landed on its edge. : ) > > Lynn > do not archive > On Feb 10, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > >> >> On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >>> My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off >>> from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. >> >> Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush >> fields as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to >> register it. In other words, the instrument is not made for bush planes >> like the Kitfox. >> >> Cheers, >> Michel >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:34 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help Tm I guess we need to hold a kitfox flyin/ sleepover to try and help you out if we swamp them with kitfoxers and baffle em with bs we might get them to gve you a key just to get rid of the rest of us lol . Good luck my friend on your quest for justice . Fly safe John Perry Do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:33 PM PST US From: Jim Corner Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ASI's and Altimeter Calibration Further to my previous post I was inspired by Lowel's ASI calibration spreadsheet to do some testing.. Having ASI and altimeter sitting on my bench waiting for installation in my new Model 5 I set up a water manometer. I compared differences in ASI readings for 25, 50, 100, 150 and 200 foot changes in altitude, with the ASI static port connected as they would be in actual operation. ASI readings were 30, 40, 55, 60 and 75 mph respectively. My conclusion is that it would take a very poorly placed Static port to have much effect on altitude or encoder output. (i.e. a 30 to 40 mph ASI error in order to produce greater than a 50' error in altitude} Jim On 8-Feb-07, at 10:32 AM, Jim Corner wrote: > > > The current discussion brings up a concern I have never completely > understood regarding calibration of the altimeter and transponder > encoder. > > As I understand it the process uses a calibrated vacuum source to > connected to the static line to: > > 1) ensure that the altimeter reads correctly over its range of > operation > > 2) ensures that the output of the encoder agrees with the altimeter > when corrected to standard atmosphere pressure > > > My concern is that in actual dynamic operation ( i.e. flying ) the > location of the static source can and does affect ASI and Altimeter > readings. > > Is it that the static port location does not effect the altimeter > and encoder readings sufficiently to be of concern even though > ASI readings are affected? > > Perhaps the calibration process tests in some way that I am > unaware, the location of the static port? > > Am I missing something it the calibration process? > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:42 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Yup, you're right. I just checked and the elevation is showing 1800'...I now recall that I made that strip a waypoint when I flew over it last year...at apparently 1800'. Next time I land down there, I'll enter the elevation of 1001', give it an airport symbol and that should fix it. Lynn do not archive On Feb 10, 2007, at 6:27 PM, dave wrote: > > Lynn , you might have a setting that is off a bit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.