Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:13 AM - KF2 Tail (Mike)
2. 11:33 AM - Re: ASI's and Altimeter Calibration (kurt schrader)
3. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
4. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
5. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
6. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
7. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
8. 03:58 PM - Maule tailwheel (Sjklerks@aol.com)
9. 03:58 PM - Re: Need airport access ideas...help (Noel Loveys)
10. 04:10 PM - Re: GPS (Noel Loveys)
11. 04:25 PM - Re: GPS. WAS: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
12. 04:28 PM - Re: GPS. WAS: ASIs (Noel Loveys)
13. 04:53 PM - Re: Maule tailwheel (crazyivan)
14. 05:18 PM - Coordinated turns to base and final (Clem Nichols)
15. 05:26 PM - Maule tnailwheel (Clint Bazzill)
16. 05:27 PM - Re: Maule tailwheel (Marco Menezes)
17. 05:41 PM - Re: Coordinated turns to base and final (dave)
18. 06:10 PM - Re: KF2 Tail (Lowell Fitt)
19. 06:51 PM - floats for sale (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
20. 06:52 PM - Re: Coordinated turns to base and final (Clem Nichols)
21. 07:11 PM - Re: GPS (Michael Gibbs)
22. 08:13 PM - Re: Coordinated turns to base and final (Lowell Fitt)
23. 09:36 PM - Re: Coordinated turns to base and final (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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I am in the process fo rebuilding a KF2 damaged in an accident (S/N
89), and since I am basically starting over to build the aircraft, I
want to both increase the height of the vertical stabilizer and
rudder, and add ribs to them and the horizontal tail surface. I am
also considering adding electric elevator trim, since the servos
weigh about 3-4 oz, and should not add an excessive amount of weight.
Has anyone made this kind of mod? Any suggestions as to what airfoil
to use? How about the leading and trailing edge shapes? What shape
should the modified vertical surfaces have (eg, squared off on top,
lengthened fore-aft, etc). Also, what about the trailing edges?
Any ideas and pics would be very welcome at this point.
Mike
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ASI's and Altimeter Calibration |
Great job Jim,
This is what the list is all about. "Experimental"
aircraft that we learn from.
I assume you applied a vacuum to the static sides of
the ASI and altimeter together?
That does seem to mean that a very small change at the
static port would change the ASI much more than the
altimeter.
Kurt S.
Do not archive
--- Jim Corner <jcorner@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Further to my previous post I was inspired by
> Lowel's ASI calibration
> spreadsheet to do some testing..
>
> Having ASI and altimeter sitting on my bench
> waiting for
> installation in my new Model 5 I set up a water
> manometer.
>
> I compared differences in ASI readings for 25, 50,
> 100, 150 and 200
> foot changes in altitude, with the ASI static port
> connected as they
> would be in actual operation.
>
> ASI readings were 30, 40, 55, 60 and 75 mph
> respectively.
>
> My conclusion is that it would take a very poorly
> placed Static port
> to have much effect on altitude or encoder output.
> (i.e. a 30 to 40
> mph ASI error in order to produce greater than a 50'
> error in altitude}
>
> Jim
It's here! Your new message!
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Message 3
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I have tried similar thing on floats but closer to ten feet then climb until
airspeed bleeds off a bit. Yes I did notice the altimeter didn't move until
I was about 200-300 feet up and then it started to climb and make up for
lost time as it were.
On changing the airspeed indication of your plane with the static port
disconnected that depends on whether or not your biggest leaks are in the
front or the rear of the plane. If your plane actually pressurizes a
little, (airleaks in the front) then the ASI will read lower. If your plane
depressurizes slightly (air leaks in the rear) then your ASI will read
higher. If you say you don't have air leaks then you are a fisherman and as
we all know all fishermen are liars except for you and me. I'm not so sure
about you. :-)
The problem I had was just after getting up on step the ASI was all over
the place. Once I got to flying speed, and off the ripples of the water the
ASI smoothed out to usable performance. As I said in an earlier post I
found the static port fitting was well beyond loose.
About the only time I check my ASI like yourself is when landing. These
little planes can get into some small locations and it is easy to bleed off
too much airspeed. I tend to set up to land a bit hotter than is really
necessary. Loosing airspeed isn't too hard.... Building it up again takes
time.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kitfoxmike
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:17 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
>
>
> On the altitude indication, have you ever got off the ground
> at less than 200ft and hold full throttle and push forward on
> the stick and run along the ground 2 ft off and hit about 80
> indicated and pull up and look at the altitude indicator, it
> doestn't move, what??? yup, all of the sudden when your at
> about 200ft it will finally move. All these guages are for a
> guide, think of them as running on a rubber band and the
> response is going to be after you have already done it. If
> you fly as much as I do, over 250hrs a year, you will begine
> to realise this is very true, you end up not even relying on
> them, just using them for a reference.
>
> I also Bass fish and I have a nice Ranger boat. When I was
> doing turnaments I would want my boat to go faster to impress
> the other person in the boat, so what I did and a lot of
> other guys did with their boat was to enlarge the hole in the
> outdrive for the speedo, wow instand speed increase, sure
> impressed the fella that you had for a partner that day. I
> think when we pull the static port off the back of the panel
> and use cabin static, we are doing the same thing. Try it if
> you haven't, you pull the static off the guages and you have
> instant speed increase.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> model IV, 1200
> speedster
> 912ul
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93947#93947
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 4
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Around here when a Kollisman is set properly the altimeter is supposed to be
within 20' of the registered airport altitude. The adjustment is easy to
make. Invariably other deviations will come form the static set up.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kurt schrader
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
>
>
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> --- kitfoxmike <customtrans@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> ...........
> > How about the altitude indication, again I don't
> > care to much, the only time is to make sure I'm at
> > proper altitude, lets say 1000 over structure or
> > when I'm told to fly at a certain altitude for
> > sequencing......
>
> Well, there goes my theory that if I cruise at a hard
> altitude, +/- 250 feet, I'll miss both the VFR and IFR
> traffic. ;-)
>
> Kurt S.
>
> Ha ha
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 5
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The faster you go the more Bernoulli effect on your static port. I wouldn't
worry about it. Your ASI seems accurate around the approach speed.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Barry West
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
>
>
>
> Here is my airspeed caliration from the initial flight
> testing. It is
> essentially the same after installing a static port. Not yet
> having a
> transponder, I don't know about altitude. Like most of you,
> I never had any
> concern about calibrated or indicated airspeed but it would
> be nice to know.
> Maybe the problem will be resolved when the transponder is working.
>
> indicated 0 20 40 60 80 100 110
> calibrated 0 21 42 60 80 95 102
>
> Barry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:22 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
>
>
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> >
> > How much do you guys trust the altitude feature of your
> GPS? Just check
> > and
> > see if your altimeter approximates the reading on your GPS
> before and
> > after
> > take off and that should give you an idea as to how
> effective your static
> > ports are. If the altimeter reads high, say 10% then your ASI will
> > probably
> > also read too fast. Probably close to 10% too high.
> >
> > Also how long has it been since any one has calibrated
> their Altimeter ??
> >
> > Noel
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> >> Michel Verheughe
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:48 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
> >>
> >>
> <michel@online.no>
> >>
> >> On Feb 8, 2007, at 5:46 PM, kurt schrader wrote:
> >> > This of course depends upon your Mod C being
> >> > calibrated
> >>
> >> Well ... yes, Kurt and Noel. My thinking actually comes
> from my first
> >> blunder. The previous owner of my plane flew only G airspace. Here,
> >> near Oslo, it's pretty much controlled so the first thing I
> >> did was to
> >> install a transponder mode C. On the first flight, I asked
> the local
> >> tower: "Radar check, please!" He gave me my position and altitude.
> >> "Cool!" I thought, "this is exactly what my altimeter shows!
> >> It must be
> >> pretty accurate."
> >> Then, later one, someone told me: "Not quite so! It only
> >> means that you
> >> were both using the same QNH."
> >> Indeed, because both altimeter and the transponder's
> altitude encoder
> >> are connected to the same static port.
> >>
> >> In this case, we wanted to know if the ASI needs calibration,
> >> or if it
> >> is a static port problem. I suggested then a process of
> elimination.
> >> Knowing that the indicated airspeed is wrong and assuming that the
> >> altitude encoder is correct, if the indicated altitude matches the
> >> reported altitude, then one would assume that the static
> port is not
> >> really sensing the static air pressure. Does that make sense?
> >>
> >> Kurt, of course, one could ask the controller for airspeed
> read out,
> >> but then, it would be ground speed and usually we can find
> that from
> >> e.g. a GPS. In any case, it won't tell if it is most likely an ASI
> >> problem, or a static port problem.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, I also have a static port problem, my indicated
> >> airspeed
> >> is too high by about 5 MPH. And yes, I have the port aft,
> >> left side of
> >> the fuselage, as recommended by Denney (Skystar, in your case! :-)
> >> When I have a bit of time, I'll try to have a double port,
> >> one on each
> >> side.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Michel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
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Message 6
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Mine is usually within 20 feet of home altitude MSL ( I live at 15' MSL)
fluctuations are not too noticeable. Changes generally occur over days not
seconds but if I were to see fluctuations I'd give the altitude feature and
GS indication a zero.
A few years ago, before 9-11, I saw a stationary GPS jump location by more
than thirty miles in a few seconds. The next day all was normal again.
Remember who controls the GPS constellation and trust it accordingly.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
wwillyard@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: ASIs
>How much do you guys trust the altitude feature of your GPS?
Not much. Not even close to field elevation and fluctuates while the GPS is
stationary.
Bill W.
Do not archive
_____
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
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Message 7
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Attach the static port to the wing strut maybe 2/3 the way to the wing and
route the tubing down the back of the strut and into the plane. If you have
the strut fairings you can route the tube inside the fairing. The tubing
can be held in place either with Cora Seal or even nylon zip ties at several
locations.
Noel
>
> In all cases, a static port out on the wing strut well
> below the wing and out of propwash instead of on the
> fuselage would help. Harder to make this change
> though. Wish I had done it this way....
Message 8
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I have a maule tailwheel with the hard 6 inch tire, I really like the maule
except for the rough ride that it gives? Can anybody tell me what the
differance is between the 8" sfs-p8a tailwheel and the p8b tundra tailwheel other
then the price? Do they weigh the same? Thanks
Jim
Model IV
Message 9
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| Subject: | Need airport access ideas...help |
Ask the airport manager to hire you to check the status of the gates as a
volunteer security advisor. You can say you have already passed a security
check (earlier post) and would perform a service to the airport. You won't
be affecting the positions of current airport employees.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 6:10 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Need airport access ideas...help
>
>
>
> One of the main reasons I chose to build a Kitfox was the
> ability to fold it up and keep it at home. This made owning
> an airplane affordable for me.
>
> I will be ready to start flying soon and have found that I am
> locked out of our local airport. The county's policy is that
> Keys to the airport gates are issued only to hanger and tie
> down tennants. The airport manager does not see this as an
> issue. She said I can ask someone at the FBO to open a gate
> each time I want in or out. This is not acceptable to me.
> Not only is it a huge inconvienence for both me and the FBO,
> I am restricted to having airport access during the FBO's
> business hours only...9 to 5 Mon through Sat...closed Sun.
>
> I plan to attend the Airport Advisory Committee's meeting on
> Feb. 13 to ask that they propose a change in this policy to
> the County commisioners. I would like to hear some good
> ideas on arguments for me to present. I plan to be nice and polite.
>
> Tom Jones, Classic 4, Ellensburg, WA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94024#94024
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 10
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Most Bell 206 pilots will write up their flight logs while waiting for the
turbines to cool down ( something like three minutes) before engine shut
down. Maybe the best time to write up the logs is before getting out of the
plane.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 6:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS
>
>
>
> I just got the Instruction Manual out for my 296 (when all else
> fails....), and under "Viewing the Flight Log" it says, "Recording
> begins when your speed exceeds 30 knots and you gain 500 feet of
> altitude." Further on..."If you land and groundspeed drops below 30
> knots, the flight entry is saved and a new entry will be recorded
> when you depart the airport. A touch-and-go or brief stop of less
> than ten minutes appends to the current flight record rather than
> starting a new entry."
> This is contrary to what I encountered during my recent trip, but
> that's electronics for you.
> And while we're on the subject, I flew to an uncharted field today,
> (with lots of snow on it, finally!) landed and stayed for an hour. I
> left there, and came home, landing on the lake. Took off from there
> after another hour stop, and put the plane away. My flight
> log showed
> that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off from JYM, 20 miles
> away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. Took off from 3NP, and flew Local.
> In reality, I had first landed between JXN and JYM. If
> someone looked
> at this flight log, they would think I trailered the plane between
> the 20-miles-apart airports. Again, fun with electronics. : ) Just
> another reason to record your flights in your logbook soon after you
> park the airplane, lest you forget where you went or how you got
> there. : )
>
> Lynn
> do not archive
>
> On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
> <michel@online.no>
> >
> > On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
> >> The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it
> >> doesn't
> >> have ground level data in it. (???)
> >
> > From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the
> > instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at,
> > or in the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is
> > known and in the database.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 11
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The further you deviate from the equator the worse it gets. I'm at around
48 N give or take and it's not too bad. There was one day as I mentioned in
an earlier post where my location (static) was jumping around several miles.
On the map source topo maps I have for Canada one end of the pond I use to
launch from is programmed in as 20' ( it's closer to 8') the middle of the
pond is listed as close to 30' and the far end is 24'. Imagine here in
Newfoundland water doesn't meet it's own level!
With more than six satellites I will trust the speed indication if it read 0
static before starting.
Still like maps and usually I'll spend the time dead reckoning before the
flight just to stay familiar with it. Then again I still carry and use,
every chance I get, a slide rule. Amazes some people what can be done
without batteries.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Michel Verheughe
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:40 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: GPS. WAS: ASIs
>
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> > How much do you guys trust the altitude feature of your GPS?
>
> Unless it is differential GPS, about 300 feet, Noel. And it's not
> likely to change. Something to do with the geoidal height table,
> somewhat coarse in your "worldwide" instrument and the fact that the
> angles made by the satellites over the horizon give poor
> triangulation
> in the Y-axis (altitude).
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 12
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Loran C..... No problems with a good fix. They were supposed to add
altitude to it some time ago but don't think they ever did. Needs a long
wire antenna though
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kurt schrader
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:05 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS. WAS: ASIs
>
>
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Probably the infamous "Georgian Bay Triangle". :-)
>
> But at a guess, I'd say you are seeing some reflecting
> signals off the water confusing your GPS a bit. I
> don't know for sure, but the GPS freq doesn't
> penetrate water well and may bounce off. All the
> signals are weak to begin with, so it could be one
> reason.
>
> VOR and other signals can bend as they cross shore
> lines too and can cause some position error. When I
> flew across the bigger ponds, we had to watch for
> this. Only was a problem when far enough out to
> receive just one navaid.
>
> Kurt S. S-5
>
> --- dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a 196 garmin and find it to be fairly
> > accurate ( +/- 50 feet) most of the time.
> >
> > I have had at time erratic readings of 200 to 800
> > feet fklying over Georgian Bay here in Ontario.
> > Why ? No idea here , but it only happens a few
> > times but once over land again it seems to be ok. ?
> >
> > Dave
>
>
>
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (3.1.0.10 - 9.058.016).
> http://www.pctools.com/anti-virus/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Maule tailwheel |
Matco is advertizing a new 6" PNEUMATIC tailwheel now at 4.75 pounds.
http://www.matcomfg.com/
--------
Dave
Speedster 912 UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94369#94369
Message 14
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| Subject: | Coordinated turns to base and final |
Every landing I've made in my Model IV has been from a left-hand traffic
pattern, so I can't say what my turn indicator would show in a
right-hand pattern. When I turn from downwind to base and again from
base to final the ball swings out to the right even with the left wing
down into the turn and no pressure (except initially) on the rudder
pedal. Centering the ball would obviously require right rudder which
would mean the plane was being cross-controlled, not to mention heading
in the wrong direction, or else lowering the left wing even more which I
would be a bit uncomfortable with at this speed and elevation.
Furthermore, to successfully complete these two 90 degree turns to the
left, it's necessary to go ahead and put in left rudder which only
causes the ball to move farther to the right and away from center. This
has been consistently the case in every landing I've made in the Fox, at
least a couple of hundred. I've not noticed this problem before in
flying a Cessna or a little Rans S14 which I keep at home. What am I
doing wrong here? Thanks for your input.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Maule tnailwheel |
I have a Maule P8B Tundra Tail Wheel. Love it, had to do a little
adjustment on release but works great and is very quiet. I don't think you
could break a tail wheel spring with this tail wheel. Clint
From: Sjklerks@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Maule tailwheel
I have a maule tailwheel with the hard 6 inch tire, I really like the maule
except for the rough ride that it gives? Can anybody tell me what the
differance is between the 8" sfs-p8a tailwheel and the p8b tundra tailwheel
other
then the price? Do they weigh the same? Thanks
Jim
Model IV
_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
Awards http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Maule tailwheel |
Hi JIm.
Lots of us have had that same experience with the hard rubber wheel that comes
with the Maule setup. Swap the wheel for the 6" soft rubber "homebuilder's special"
available very inexpensively from ACS. You'll have to monkey with it a
bit (a bushing is needed to increase axle diameter) but it's no big deal and
seems to work very well.
Sjklerks@aol.com wrote:
I have a maule tailwheel with the hard 6 inch tire, I really like the maule
except for the rough ride that it gives? Can anybody tell me what the differance
is between the 8" sfs-p8a tailwheel and the p8b tundra tailwheel other
then the price? Do they weigh the same? Thanks
Jim
Model IV
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Coordinated turns to base and final |
Clem ,
>> which would mean the plane was being cross-controlled, not to mention
heading in the wrong direction<<
So who is to say that you are not actually skidding in those left turns
? Is this a case of adverse yaw ?
What about when you do turns?
360 degree and end at same heading and same altitude ?
Do both left and right turns, Rate 1, steep turns to 60 degree ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Clem Nichols
To: kitfox list
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Coordinated turns to base and final
Every landing I've made in my Model IV has been from a left-hand
traffic pattern, so I can't say what my turn indicator would show in a
right-hand pattern. When I turn from downwind to base and again from
base to final the ball swings out to the right even with the left wing
down into the turn and no pressure (except initially) on the rudder
pedal. Centering the ball would obviously require right rudder which
would mean the plane was being cross-controlled, not to mention heading
in the wrong direction, or else lowering the left wing even more which I
would be a bit uncomfortable with at this speed and elevation.
Furthermore, to successfully complete these two 90 degree turns to the
left, it's necessary to go ahead and put in left rudder which only
causes the ball to move farther to the right and away from center. This
has been consistently the case in every landing I've made in the Fox, at
least a couple of hundred. I've not noticed this problem before in
flying a Cessna or a little Rans S14 which I keep at home. What am I
doing wrong here? Thanks for your input.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
Message 18
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Mike, I'll take a stab at an answer at least as far as the electric trim.
When I built, I was a pretty ignorant soul. All I knew was the C-170B I
trained in had elevator trim and didn't understand that trim on the typical
I through IV Kitfox was with flaperon. I had assuned that elevator trim was
muscle induced and I didn't need sore muscles.
I ordered the Speedster elevator with the trim tab cut-out, but it wasn't in
my budget to order the tab or the servo.
When it came time to work on that part of the airplane, I was dismayed to
find that there was a 3/4" U channel that forned the forward edge of the tab
cutout on the elevator. This was the hinge attachment point and helped
create the space needed for the MAC servo. At this time I was unaware that
the typical rib profile in horizontal stab and elevetor was essentially from
leading edge to trailing edge in both, forming essentially a thin figure
eight in profile with the intersection at the hinge line - two separate
airfoils joined at the hinge line.
What I proposed to do was create a single airfoil with a gap closure
encorporated at the hinge line. This I did with 1/4" medium density foam
ribs with a very lightweight glass cloth on the faces. I determinde the
airfoil shape with a most unscientific method. I fixed the elevator and
horizontal stabilizer in the neutral positon with clamps. The leading edge
of the stabilizer is 1/2" tubing , the trailing edge of the elevator is
3/8". with the 3/4" channel in there somewhere. I took a piece of aluminum
strap, probably 1"X1/16" by several feet long and clamped it on the trailing
edge edge - long end forward. I thin proceeded to add weight to the forward
free end until it contacted the leading edge. This produced a curve with
the radius progressively shorter toward the leading edge as is found in most
airfoils. This curve was then traced onto cardboard rib templates and
mirrored for the bottom surface. Several of these made up the various ribs
needed. The gap seal ws a bit more complicated. I am attaching a drawing
of the gap seal method I used.
Hope this helps.
Lowell
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <mclayton@rochester.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: KF2 Tail
>
> I am in the process fo rebuilding a KF2 damaged in an accident (S/N 89),
> and since I am basically starting over to build the aircraft, I want to
> both increase the height of the vertical stabilizer and rudder, and add
> ribs to them and the horizontal tail surface. I am also considering
> adding electric elevator trim, since the servos weigh about 3-4 oz, and
> should not add an excessive amount of weight.
>
> Has anyone made this kind of mod? Any suggestions as to what airfoil to
> use? How about the leading and trailing edge shapes? What shape should
> the modified vertical surfaces have (eg, squared off on top, lengthened
> fore-aft, etc). Also, what about the trailing edges?
>
> Any ideas and pics would be very welcome at this point.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
Message 19
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For those of you interested in Aerocet 1100 floats; Jim Fahey the current
owner of the molds, jigs, parts, paperwork, etc. is interested in selling all
that he has to another person(s) that might be interested in making the
floats. He no longer has the time or interest to do so. Jim can be reached by
phone 608-835-7984, or by email jimfahey55@yahoo.com .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Coordinated turns to base and final |
I don't notice the problem when climbing and turning or when turning and
maintaining altitude. It only seems to occur when I'm in a descending
turn, at least to the left. The next time I take the plane up I'll try
to check out a descending turn to the right, and see how the ball lines
up.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Coordinated turns to base and final
Clem ,
>> which would mean the plane was being cross-controlled, not to
mention heading in the wrong direction<<
So who is to say that you are not actually skidding in those left
turns ? Is this a case of adverse yaw ?
What about when you do turns?
360 degree and end at same heading and same altitude ?
Do both left and right turns, Rate 1, steep turns to 60 degree ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Clem Nichols
To: kitfox list
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Coordinated turns to base and final
Every landing I've made in my Model IV has been from a left-hand
traffic pattern, so I can't say what my turn indicator would show in a
right-hand pattern. When I turn from downwind to base and again from
base to final the ball swings out to the right even with the left wing
down into the turn and no pressure (except initially) on the rudder
pedal. Centering the ball would obviously require right rudder which
would mean the plane was being cross-controlled, not to mention heading
in the wrong direction, or else lowering the left wing even more which I
would be a bit uncomfortable with at this speed and elevation.
Furthermore, to successfully complete these two 90 degree turns to the
left, it's necessary to go ahead and put in left rudder which only
causes the ball to move farther to the right and away from center. This
has been consistently the case in every landing I've made in the Fox, at
least a couple of hundred. I've not noticed this problem before in
flying a Cessna or a little Rans S14 which I keep at home. What am I
doing wrong here? Thanks for your input.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 21
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Lynn sez:
>I think I read somewhere that you can download the tracks, or for
>that matter any info on the GPS, into your PC and print it out.
That depends on the GPS unit. Some do, some don't.
If you are in the United States and ATC has issued you a squawk code
(i.e., you are squawking something other than 1200), your ground
track will show up on FlightAware <http://www.flightaware.com>. Just
punch in your tail number and it plots your most recent trip. I
don't know how long it keeps the data, but I just looked up a flight
that dates back to the end of May, 2006 (roughly 8 months ago).
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Coordinated turns to base and final |
Clem,
Your description sounds like me. That is until finally after 7 years of
flying, I put a trim tab on the rudder. Coordinated turns at pattern speeds
was a challenge. Now they are seat of the pants simple. The "group" often
flew rivers sometimes deep in canyons at about approach speeds and I always
had one eye on the ball - I didn't want to become a sad stastistic.
Question. Are you trimmed in yaw in flight? If not a rudder trim tab might
help.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Coordinated turns to base and final
Every landing I've made in my Model IV has been from a left-hand traffic
pattern, so I can't say what my turn indicator would show in a right-hand
pattern. When I turn from downwind to base and again from base to final the
ball swings out to the right even with the left wing down into the turn and
no pressure (except initially) on the rudder pedal. Centering the ball
would obviously require right rudder which would mean the plane was being
cross-controlled, not to mention heading in the wrong direction, or else
lowering the left wing even more which I would be a bit uncomfortable with
at this speed and elevation. Furthermore, to successfully complete these
two 90 degree turns to the left, it's necessary to go ahead and put in left
rudder which only causes the ball to move farther to the right and away from
center. This has been consistently the case in every landing I've made in
the Fox, at least a couple of hundred. I've not noticed this problem before
in flying a Cessna or a little Rans S14 which I keep at home. What am I
doing wrong here? Thanks for your input.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Coordinated turns to base and final |
At 05:18 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote:
>or else lowering the left wing even more which I would be a bit
>uncomfortable with at this speed and elevation.
You've got it right.
You're seeing a problem because your turns are descending. What
causes an aircraft to turn? It's the wings and the angle of their
lift vector. Therefore in order to turn you tilt the wings and pull
back on the elevator to increase lift. Now, if you tilt the wings
left, then don't pull back on the elevator, as you might do in a
descent, the plane slides sideways, "down hill" as it were, causing
the ball to swing right. Try it. Go up and do some steep turns or
turns around a point. Midway through the turn relax back pressure so
the plane straightens out. You'll fall sideways "into" the turn.
The solutions: 1) shallow your descent during the turn by increasing
back pressure; and/or 2) roll into the turn until you are
coordinated. In either case you can try shallowing your turn entry so
your subsequent moves don't have to be so aggressive. That might help
keep you "comfortable". Remember, you can run a higher bank angle in
a descending turn without danger of an accelerated stall.
The other training I would recommend is doing a bunch of slow speed
steep turns at altitude so you become familiar with your aircraft's
accelerated stall behavior. Start at about 60 MIAS and do 45 degree
steep turns both ways. Decrease speed 5 or 10 MIAS and do it again.
Keep reducing until you can just maintain bank angle and altitude
while in stall buffet. Stay coordinated throughout. Finally, increase
your speed 5 MIAS again and do circles. As you circle pull hard and
feel the plane drop out as you stall. Release pressure immediately
and it will hook up again. It's kind of fun.
PS. Be prepared to spin. (If you stay coordinated you should be fine
at 45 degrees.)
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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