---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/18/07: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:32 AM - changing thread names etc (akflyer) 2. 06:29 PM - Re: varnish before or after? (jerry evans) 3. 07:23 PM - Re: changing thread names etc (Lowell Fitt) 4. 08:08 PM - Re: Trailering (david yeamans) 5. 08:43 PM - Re: changing thread names etc (akflyer) 6. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: Need airport access ideas...help (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:32 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: changing thread names etc From: "akflyer" I know some of you are very passionate about chaning a thread name, but do you really know when you should do it??? The purpose of a forum with THREADS is so someone can ask a question or bring up an issue, and you can talk about it by replying IN THAT THREAD. This keeps the entire "conversation" inline and easy to follow. If at some point in the thread you happen to se a fellow reply and it jogs your memory on another unrelated story, you THEN start another thread about that OFF TOPIC reply. A little wandering here and there in a thread kinda helps to keep it interesting for me, but other thin skinned individuals seem to really get tore up about about it. We need to be thoughtful of thse guys as some of them are getting up in age and WE darn sure dont want to be the ones that send them to the hospital with chest pains as the off topic stuff can be quite strenuous to read. I see ALOT of guys that are creating a new thread, putting was bla bla bla in the tittle then carring on the same conversation that should have stayed in the original thread. These threads can get to be many pages long, and that is fine. I am a member of lots of different forums on lots of different subjects and this one is by far the worst one for changing thread titles I find one long thread much easier to read and find information in, that 57 scattered threads with 2 posts each... not to mention trying to read a digest in the moring with your first cup of coffe.. is this... was that... I know, I know.. if I dont like I can leave right.. well guess what, there WAY TO MUCH valuble info traded every day for me to want to leave. I just want to try and help make it better. just my $1.25... I know its alot but I typed way too much for it to only be .02 -------- Leni Avid C W/582 1260 full lotus .......DO NOT ARCHIVE..... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-823#95823 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:38 PM PST US From: jerry evans Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: varnish before or after? I'm gluing first then varnishing the glue. If anyone knows I'd like to hear I cannot find this advice in my old assembly manual and figured I'd ask the list. Do you varnish new ribs before or after gluing them in?? It might be better to reply to occom@ns.sympatico.ca rather than start an argument if it can go both ways. Do not archive Jerry Evans kitfox 555 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:00 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: changing thread names etc I have some thoughts regarding Leni's post - this will be mostly be in the "etc." catagory. First let me say that I am probably one of the old guys - probably in more ways than I want to admit. Actually I have never really worried too much about changning thread names. This is probably due to the version of the list I prefer. What I do have trouble with, though, is the posts, apparently to the forum version of the list, where the original post or at least a previous post is not appended. There have been lots of times I found I had no idea what was being talked about. And unless the subject was very compelling or the poster had a compelling history in my mind, I just hit the delete key as clicking on the forum link on the bottom just is not my way of doing things. Maybe this is age related, but I think more accurately it is habit related. This list has been part of my morning routine since 1994 the year after I started building. Until recently that was the way it was done with all participants. Send a post and it arrives at all subscribers mail boxes and any reply is appended to the previous post. I read everything. If a new subject heading was made - no problem. I understand that not removing the previous posts on a reply can make large archival files and leaving the appended posts on long threads is discouraged, but on every post I received I could easily bring myself up to speed on what is being discussed. Maybe just a bad habit and old dogs and new tricks, I suppose. There seems to be a "new breed" (not my term, I might add) of contributors that as Leni suggests are participating on lots of forums and are quite comfortable with this new version of an old list. What I wonder as I continue to hit the delete key is this. Is it incumbant on the "old" guys to adapt to the way the new gius like doing things, or should it be the other way around. I think a bit of respect for some tradition would be quite appropriate. Not to mention respect for the habits of the likely 300 or so old time lurkers who are used to the way it has always worked. I could probably name about 20 past contributors who would be on my must read list when they posted who are no longer with us or may still lurk with rare posts. Experienced builders with lots of wise counsel to offer who found for one reason or another that staying with the list was simply not worth the effort. I have also had private notes from valued current list members who have signed off in frustration only to come back in the hope things had improved, and others who are a click away from leaving forever. I confess at times to those feelings as well. I don't know what the ansewers are, but I think some serious thought might be given to what people hope the list is or will become. It is informal despite the "List Janitors" as they refer to themselves or "List Nazis" as the more free spirited have called them, but it is never-the-less evolving and as I see it it can go only two ways, for better or for worse. I suspect that some of this has to do with the lag in new builders precipitated by the demise of Skyster Aircraft and the build up to speed of Kitfox LLC. Where in the past most participants were builders, it would appear that the more vocal of recent participants did not in fact build their airplanes and that in itself has changed the domographic of the list at least in those who participate. We are told from time to time that we have about 400 list subscribers and we can probably count only about 20 or thirty that contribute regularly. I did a brief count one day and found that one newly added member had contributed close to 400 times in his first three months of participation and this person was not a builder but a recent buyer, actually new to the Kitfox. The posts were often interesting, but just as often simply off the mark as far as good usable information was concerned - much reminiscent of a forum type chat room. I have met and enjoyed lots of folks through the e-mails posted and feel I have good friends in most parts of the US and elsewhere who I have never met face to face, and there are a dozen or so more who I do most of my flying with who are not on the list and I have spent long hours in their company as well - flying along side and on the ground. This is not a swan song, but I feel compelled to remind everyone that we each have a part in making this list work. If the majority is of the opinion that it should be more of a chat room filled with banter and such, that will be fine with me in my absense and I suspect others as well. If it is to remain as a technical forum with posts related to the building and flying of Kitfox aircraft (Avid and others welcome) Then that is fine also and mirrors the feelings of most that have sent me private e-mails. Thanks to Leni for introducing a bit of philosophical list talk. P.S. After re-reading my post, the thought came to me that Mat Dralle administers lots of lists. It might work for those interested in a more chatty version to contact him and start a forum more suited to their needs. I lurked - and still do - on the Matronics version of the Lancair list and haven't had a post from that list for a year or more. Maybe that one could be renamed the Kitfox-Avid pilots list or something similar and there would be something for everyone. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: changing thread names etc > > I know some of you are very passionate about chaning a thread name, but do > you really know when you should do it??? > > The purpose of a forum with THREADS is so someone can ask a question or > bring up an issue, and you can talk about it by replying IN THAT THREAD. > This keeps the entire "conversation" inline and easy to follow. If at > some point in the thread you happen to se a fellow reply and it jogs your > memory on another unrelated story, you THEN start another thread about > that OFF TOPIC reply. > A little wandering here and there in a thread kinda helps to keep it > interesting for me, but other thin skinned individuals seem to really get > tore up about about it. We need to be thoughtful of thse guys as some of > them are getting up in age and WE darn sure dont want to be the ones that > send them to the hospital with chest pains as the off topic stuff can be > quite strenuous to read. > > I see ALOT of guys that are creating a new thread, putting was bla bla bla > in the tittle then carring on the same conversation that should have > stayed in the original thread. These threads can get to be many pages > long, and that is fine. I am a member of lots of different forums on lots > of different subjects and this one is by far the worst one for changing > thread titles I find one long thread much easier to read and find > information in, that 57 scattered threads with 2 posts each... not to > mention trying to read a digest in the moring with your first cup of > coffe.. is this... was that... > > I know, I know.. if I dont like I can leave right.. well guess what, there > WAY TO MUCH valuble info traded every day for me to want to leave. I just > want to try and help make it better. > > just my $1.25... I know its alot but I typed way too much for it to only > be .02 > > -------- > Leni > Avid C W/582 > 1260 full lotus > > .......DO NOT ARCHIVE..... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-823#95823 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:07 PM PST US From: "david yeamans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering Rexinator, I'm glad you replied. I was strongly inclined to do so. some time ago on the foxlist, can't remember who it was, but someone moved and hauled his Kitfox in a uhall truck to there new home. when they arrived he opened the truck, and his kitfox was the same as demolished. Before loading the kitfox, he swung the wings back, fasten them to the stand-offs rolled it up in the truck and away he went. All that bouncing for a long hall, and all that leverage on the wings took it toll, along with other over torqued stress on the rest of the airplane. A boat trailer would have been the safest. i moved my Kitfox from the lake of the ozarks at Osage beach, Mo. to pleasanto, Ks, 150 mile away. I hauled my fusealage on a Bob cat trailer mounted on blocks of styrofoam, and had my wings laying on ropes streched tight just below the ceiling of a uhall truck. When I arrived, everything was OK. Becareful when tranporting your airplane, you can do more damage than you realize. David , Kitfox IV 1200 , Rotax, 912 UL From: Rexinator To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:00 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering Maybe I'm guilty of stating the obvious, but I haven't noticed yet this time around that anyone mentioned the risk of G loads from the suspension on a heavy duty trailer. A lightly loaded heavy duty suspension will give a rough ride for your airplane. A trailer that is truly custom designed to carry a relatively light weight but large bulky load such as our Kitfoxes should have the axle suspension rated for the weight of the load plus some small percent, say 10%. You should factor in other things you may regularly carry with the aircraft. Fuel tanks plus fuel and tools for instance. I would think of trailering like flying at gross weight into potentially very rough weather. I have an open car carrier rated to 6,000 lbs, but I am careful to travel over smooth roads and go very slow where there are rough surfaces. I also reduced air pressure in the trailer and gear tires. My ratcheting cargo straps were many with just a little slack to allow the gear to absorb shock loads as well. Since you should want an enclosed trailer you will also want to secure the airplane so that it can not jostle around inside and bang against the enclosure. Thus a properly rated suspension is more essential for the long trips. I think I read somewhere that a pothole can easily transmit over 12 G's through your suspension which of course WILL cause damage if it gets to the airframe. I would imagine an adjustable air suspension would work best. Tandem axles on a trailer gives a much smoother ride. The point is to consider the suspension when deciding on a trailer. Rex Colorado ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:44 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: changing thread names etc From: "akflyer" The point of my post was not to start another "list" or "Forum" but to try and make the currentone more user friendly. When you look at the forum page scroll down the first page and you may see what I meen. in more than one case, ther is a thread asking a question, and a different thread withthe answer. My goal would be to get those two together. AS far as respect. For the most part, I was brought up to respect my elders and even a suggestion for an argument could get you something you did not want.. or something that may take a few seconds to minutes to wake up from... Just ask eskflyer lol.. With that being said, just as we have gone (for the most part) from open cockpit bi-planes to space travel, so have the workings of the net. For the most part, things have been changed to make it faster and easier to use. I also resist change and was pretty pissed when my puter did an automatic update to IE 7.. till I figured out how to use it and make it do what I wanted. I did have my emails set get every update.. now it is a sometimes hard to follow digest. In reality, it is much easier to just click your favorites and have a cool forum come up that you can EASILY see the topics and read through... till you see.... is this.... was that ..... should have been this but was really named that... If you want to talk about a fuel tank, you can 1) search "fuel tank" or scroll down the page till you see the topic, click it, then read it and see if your question was answered. If not reply to THAT thread bringing it and your NEW question about the fuel tank to the top for all to see and maybe learn from. 2) start another thread cause you are more like me and want someone to answer YOUR question within the next 30 seconds cause you dont have all day to sit around and surf the net... wait.. I do surf all day...but I want it answered right now anyway. 3) look for a thread that sounds like something you want to look at, then start another thread that begins with "was fuel tank now.. does any one know anything about a tank that may hold fuel" or 4) get discusted cause it has been brought up approximately 3478 times in the last year so you start a thread that begins with "was fuel tank now is hey dumb a$$ do a search for it. As you can see they all will eventually get your question answered but one of the options is pretty clean and does not start more clutter. I say we need to meet in the middle.. I want to learn from you about thse wonderful planes, and maybe you can get up to speed and learn something that makes the forum humm along a little easier. your call on what you choose to do, just tossing out an idea, not a fight starter. I do hope you can see that I have a wee bit of a sence of humour and would really like to see other try and find theirs and not get so uptight about the littlest of things.. -------- Leni Avid C W/582 1260 full lotus .......DO NOT ARCHIVE..... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-961#95961 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:48 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Need airport access ideas...help Tom=0A =0AWhen dealing with cities and other government entities 2 years is a normal response time and one year is almost instantaneous. This quick t ime frame is reserved for billing. One other little item to know, if you w ant to get your request okay-ed by the commission, you first need to convin ce the airport manager that HE should recommend your request to the commiss ion. The reason is that the airport commissioners may not have any knowled ge about flying, or airports. They may just be citizens who are doing a ci vic duty or putting in time to work their way up to the city council and th en maybe to Mayor and beyond. So guess who they are looking to for guidanc e. I had no idea how much wisdom I would gain when I became an airport com missioner at SNS. =0A =0AJim Shumaker=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ---- =0AFrom: Tom Jones =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0A Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:44:47 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Re: N "Tom Jones" =0A=0A=0A> Sounds like you have a very nic e airport manager and will be able to work something out. Going to the Airp ort Commission might surprise you how slooow things can happen in governmen t. If you convince the advisory board then they must put the business on th e agenda and publish the agenda and then their recommendations can be sent to the City council who can then send it to their legal council who can the n return it with amendments and then if it doesn't have to be reconsidered because of the feelings of some local pilots feeling of fairness then you m ight get the change in a few months...probably in time for next (2008) summ ers flying season. =0A=0A=0AYou are right about the slowness Jim. I went t o the county on Jan. 12th to ask for a gate key figureing there might be a security check or such that might take a couple weeks. Instead of getting a key I was told I could go to the next Airport Advisory board meeting sche duled for Feb. 13 and give input on the Key policy. I told the airport man ager I would be there. I went to the meeting last night to find an empty c onference room. The meeting was canceled due to lack of agenda items. Cra p, I guess I was the only agenda item but not important enough to be notifi ed the meeting was cancelled. I'll quit wineing now. Do not archive.=0ATo m Jones=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matro ==================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.