Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:23 AM - Re: New Web Site (Don Pearsall)
2. 08:37 AM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Don Pearsall)
3. 11:22 AM - Re: New Web Site (Marco Menezes)
4. 12:31 PM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Nolan Donahue)
5. 05:56 PM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Bradley M Webb)
6. 07:41 PM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (ron schick)
7. 07:52 PM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Floyd Johnson)
Message 1
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Congratulations Lowell! Your new venture is a real help to the Kitfox
Community. That is a great web site too and the idea of having new videos
every week is sure to draw a lot of traffic to the site.
I hope you are very successful. Don't be afraid to post news about your
business here, it is very welcome. Good luck!
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
List,
Pardon the post, but a friend and I have formed a small Kitfox assist
partnership. We hope to offer some things that may have some benefit to
Kitfox owners and builders. We are small to be sure, but hope to add more
to the line-up as we grow.
We have a website that shows what we have and as a bonus, we will be posting
short video segments on a regular basis - weekly is the plan - to show some
of the places Kitfoxes can go and what they can do. These are real fun
airplanes to be sure.
The URL is http://highwingllc.com . We have been on line for three weeks so
check the video archive section for the other two video segments. We have
accumulated lots of hours of video so return regularly for a look.
Lowell
Message 2
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is
obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds
its way around the radiator with little air actually going through the
radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air
going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high
pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low pressure
behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and
low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There
are many builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings,
and I am sure they will chime in.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO
conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work,
but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to
train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in
a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a
90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name
is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in
law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he
never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed
prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a
problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the
items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for
the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his
medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been
trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's
homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax
912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under
the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or
cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in
about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the
ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the
crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop
off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other
arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and
also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did
provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag,
whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on
a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and
the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it
anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or
hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the
right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating
and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some
pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be
the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who
might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New Web Site |
Hey Lowell, congrats on "going public" with HighWing LLC.
I've assembled and installed HighWing's rad shutter kit on my Fox. Just waiting
for the control cable from ACS. Nice kit, well conceived and constructed. You
have my testimonial endorsement, "4 stars."
Best of luck.
do not archive.
Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
List,
Pardon the post, but a friend and I have formed a small Kitfox assist
partnership. We hope to offer some things that may have some benefit to
Kitfox owners and builders. We are small to be sure, but hope to add more
to the line-up as we grow.
We have a website that shows what we have and as a bonus, we will be posting
short video segments on a regular basis - weekly is the plan - to show some
of the places Kitfoxes can go and what they can do. These are real fun
airplanes to be sure.
The URL is http://highwingllc.com . We have been on line for three weeks so
check the video archive section for the other two video segments. We have
accumulated lots of hours of video so return regularly for a look.
Lowell
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
In response to the overheating problem, before
sticking larger and larger radiators on the thing,
make sure that your cooling system is working
properly. Theoretically a 912 radiator should be large
enough since both engines produce about the same
power, so troubleshoot other areas of your cooling
system.
How is your water pump? I'm sure a new one isn't too
expensive (and don't get a cheapo rebuilt one either)
Also, most water pumps are belt driven and are
designed to work most eficiently at a typical cruising
rpm. You are running the engine at roughly twice the
RPM of a car so the pump may be spinning too fast. You
may want to try changing your pulleys to slow down the
pump. This may seem backwards, but car racers do this
all the time (they call them under drive pulleys) with
good results.
Also are you sure the coolant passages are clean? If
this is a used engine that hasn't been torn down and
hot tanked, there could be lots of deposits in there.
You could try running a cooling system flush to clean
it out.
Your thermostat could either be sticking, or working
properly but not allowing enough water flow for the
continous high power output. I'd remove it. The rotax
dosen't have one.
What type of coolant are you running? I know rotax
calls for straight antifreeze but if you run straight
water it will run much cooler. If the climate allows
it, try that. If it dosn't, use no more than 30%
antifreeze, also water wetter is a product that you
add to your coolant that I think works by lowering the
surface tension of the coolant and allowing it to cool
better. I've used this in a car that ran hot and it
works pretty well.
What type of cowling are you using? If you're running
a cowling other than the standard one, the airflow
could be different and not allow enough airflow
through the radiator.
Is your radiator plugged up? Especially if your
engines coolant passages are dirty, this could have
gotten into the radiator and restricted it. After you
flush out the engine, take the radiator to a shop to
have them clean it out.
Do you have an oil cooler? this will help dissipate
some of the engine heat and let the coolant do less
work. of course if your oil temp is low already than
this won't help, but if you keep your oil temps
arround 160 or so this coud help.
I think a systematic approach will give you some
answers. And I'd be carefull about running the engine
to the point of overheating repeatedly. That can do
lots of dammage.
Good luck
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
Message 5
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
Earl,
I am flying a Geo 1.0L G10 on my Kitfox 2. I have an aftermarket radiator
inside the stock KF cowl, and I'm using the Raven system as well. So far, it
is a real gem. It is heavier than a 582, but much more reliable and is
better economically.
Right now, I am running at 208F water temp, and am slowly working to get it
lower. 220F is not too hot, IF you adhere to certain axioms. The G13 has
been proven to fly at 230F for short periods, with no issues. Remember, this
is not a Rotax. It can take the heat without killing you. But it's not good
in the long term.
I suggest you subscribe to the Yahoo FlyGeo newsgroups. There are two of
them. We just discussed this very issue at length, so a short search will
yield many answers. For example, the water pump may be cavitating at high
RPM, the intake hose may be crushing, or the thermostat may be causing the
radiator cap to burp fluid. Only assumptions, but these are the things I
learned on the group to watch for - all of which are very fixable, once you
find out if the problem exists.
We have quite a few very knowledgeable people there, who now much about
these engines. Also, Raven monitors the group, and pipes up when needed.
Also, if you have the Raven drive, contact Jeron there. He is very helpful,
and can point you in the right direction. If you email me directly, I would
be glad to help in any way I can. I am very happy with my conversion.
Bradley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO
conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work,
but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to
train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in
a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a
90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name
is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in
law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he
never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed
prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a
problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the
items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for
the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his
medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been
trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's
homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax
912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under
the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or
cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in
about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the
ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the
crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop
off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other
arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and
also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did
provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag,
whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on
a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and
the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it
anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or
hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the
right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating
and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some
pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be
the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who
might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
Message 6
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
Bradley Please give us some performance numbers. Empty weight, rate of
climb, top speed etc. Ron NB Ore
>From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
>the GEO conversion.
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:53:55 -0500
>
>Earl,
>
>I am flying a Geo 1.0L G10 on my Kitfox 2. I have an aftermarket radiator
>inside the stock KF cowl, and I'm using the Raven system as well. So far,
>it
>is a real gem. It is heavier than a 582, but much more reliable and is
>better economically.
>
>
>Right now, I am running at 208F water temp, and am slowly working to get it
>lower. 220F is not too hot, IF you adhere to certain axioms. The G13 has
>been proven to fly at 230F for short periods, with no issues. Remember,
>this
>is not a Rotax. It can take the heat without killing you. But it's not good
>in the long term.
>
>
>I suggest you subscribe to the Yahoo FlyGeo newsgroups. There are two of
>them. We just discussed this very issue at length, so a short search will
>yield many answers. For example, the water pump may be cavitating at high
>RPM, the intake hose may be crushing, or the thermostat may be causing the
>radiator cap to burp fluid. Only assumptions, but these are the things I
>learned on the group to watch for - all of which are very fixable, once you
>find out if the problem exists.
>
>
>We have quite a few very knowledgeable people there, who now much about
>these engines. Also, Raven monitors the group, and pipes up when needed.
>
>
>Also, if you have the Raven drive, contact Jeron there. He is very helpful,
>and can point you in the right direction. If you email me directly, I would
>be glad to help in any way I can. I am very happy with my conversion.
>
>Bradley
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:49 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the
>GEO
>conversion.
>
>
>Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work,
>but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
>
>
>OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to
>train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed
>in
>a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a
>90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
>
>
>Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
>Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
>without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name
>is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
>
>The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in
>law about two years ago.
>
>It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he
>never leaves the pattern.
>
>
>This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
>
>Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
>Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
>
>
>The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three
>bladed
>prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without
>a
>problem.
>
>
>Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the
>items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for
>the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his
>medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been
>trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's
>homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax
>912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under
>the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or
>cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in
>about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the
>ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the
>crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop
>off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several
>other
>arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and
>also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did
>provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag,
>whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on
>a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and
>the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it
>anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
>help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or
>hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
>situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
>flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
>it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
>
>
>So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in
>the
>right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
>non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating
>and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some
>pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be
>the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who
>might be willing to help in any way.
>
>
>Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
>forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
>
>
>Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
>
>
>Earl White
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
fast as 1 year
http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
Message 7
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
Hi Earl,
Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him.
He will get it worked out for you.
I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and
get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator
builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also,
Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator
is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it
and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow
pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me
after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards,
Floyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Pearsall
Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO
conversion.
Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously
not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around
the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It
is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator
is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front
of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure.
I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many
builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure
they will chime in.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but
I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train
in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair
situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree
angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in
rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate
from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett
and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about
two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never
leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce
is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop.
I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items
included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason
of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could
no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off
the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and
certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system
and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the
airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling,
and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would
never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait
untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's
would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we
tried several other arrangements with larger radiat
ors. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage
directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense
of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or
60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was
definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for
the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course,
but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too
complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in
this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right
direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO
conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing
to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list
of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but
I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any
way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward
it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
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