Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols)
2. 05:41 AM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Bradley M Webb)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Michael Logan)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Safety Cable Attached to Engine (Bob)
5. 07:43 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Peter Graichen)
6. 07:51 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Rick)
7. 08:07 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (GENTRYLL@aol.com)
8. 08:50 AM - FW: KITFOX FLY-IN (Don Pearsall)
9. 09:50 AM - KITFOX FLY-IN (Rexster)
10. 10:21 AM - KITFOX FLY-IN (Rexster)
11. 11:17 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols)
12. 11:18 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols)
13. 11:25 AM - (Barry West)
14. 12:16 PM - Re: KITFOX FLY-IN (Herbert R Gottelt)
15. 01:26 PM - 296 gps wanted (debrun26@juno.com)
16. 02:12 PM - Re: GPS info (Michel Verheughe)
17. 02:13 PM - Re: New Web Site (Michel Verheughe)
18. 02:16 PM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Floyd Johnson)
19. 02:26 PM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Floyd Johnson)
20. 02:49 PM - NSI Radiator Mods (Clem Nichols)
21. 07:16 PM - wheel penetrating ski \\plans (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Floyd:
Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does
OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to
overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level
flight.
Thanks
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: Floyd Johnson
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest
on the GEO conversion.
Hi Earl,
Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your
problem to him. He will get it worked out for you.
I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I
think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will
contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that
fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of
the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum
flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the
radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and
directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of
overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Pearsall
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the
latest on the GEO conversion.
Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator
is obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream
finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through
the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance.
Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and
a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low
pressure behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a
high and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show
this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own
custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
the GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to
work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I
had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got
killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and
we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to
react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No
email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he
does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The
friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his
father in law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to
land, so he never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it
down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a
three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the
ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation
in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for
the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law
lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project
and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane
ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the
radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted
across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream.
there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and
the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine
would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but
would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the
pattern and the r pm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be
rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with
larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down
below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more
flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso
limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool
day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the
large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it
anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated
or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a
more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating
problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer
me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still
running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are
NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know
how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce
to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would
answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad
to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum --->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
I'm not prepared to do that yet publicly. I don't have much time on it, and
I am still sorting out some detail items (cooling on hot days). Once I get
things adjusted to where I want them, then we'll talk numbers.
Suffice it to say I'm happy so far. Raven Design has good support, and the
installation is where I expected it to be.
Bradley
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
>server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
>Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:39 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
>the GEO conversion.
>
>
>Bradley Please give us some performance numbers. Empty weight, rate of
>climb, top speed etc. Ron NB Ore
>
>
>>From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
>>the GEO conversion.
>>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:53:55 -0500
>>
>>Earl,
>>
>>I am flying a Geo 1.0L G10 on my Kitfox 2. I have an aftermarket radiator
>>inside the stock KF cowl, and I'm using the Raven system as well. So far,
>>it
>>is a real gem. It is heavier than a 582, but much more reliable and is
>>better economically.
>>
>>
>>
>>Right now, I am running at 208F water temp, and am slowly working to get
>it
>>lower. 220F is not too hot, IF you adhere to certain axioms. The G13 has
>>been proven to fly at 230F for short periods, with no issues. Remember,
>>this
>>is not a Rotax. It can take the heat without killing you. But it's not
>good
>>in the long term.
>>
>>
>>
>>I suggest you subscribe to the Yahoo FlyGeo newsgroups. There are two of
>>them. We just discussed this very issue at length, so a short search will
>>yield many answers. For example, the water pump may be cavitating at high
>>RPM, the intake hose may be crushing, or the thermostat may be causing the
>>radiator cap to burp fluid. Only assumptions, but these are the things I
>>learned on the group to watch for - all of which are very fixable, once
>you
>>find out if the problem exists.
>>
>>
>>
>>We have quite a few very knowledgeable people there, who now much about
>>these engines. Also, Raven monitors the group, and pipes up when needed.
>>
>>
>>
>>Also, if you have the Raven drive, contact Jeron there. He is very
>helpful,
>>and can point you in the right direction. If you email me directly, I
>would
>>be glad to help in any way I can. I am very happy with my conversion.
>>
>>Bradley
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
>>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:49 PM
>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the
>>GEO
>>conversion.
>>
>>
>>
>>Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work,
>>but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
>>
>>
>>
>>OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to
>>train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed
>>in
>>a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at
>a
>>90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
>>
>>
>>
>>Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
>>Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
>>without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's
>name
>>is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
>>
>>The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in
>>law about two years ago.
>>
>>It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so
>he
>>never leaves the pattern.
>>
>>
>>
>>This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
>>
>>Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
>>Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
>>
>>
>>
>>The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three
>>bladed
>>prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without
>>a
>>problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in
>the
>>items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for
>>the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his
>>medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been
>>trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's
>>homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax
>>912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under
>>the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or
>>cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220
>in
>>about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the
>>ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on
>the
>>crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop
>>off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several
>>other
>>arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square,
>and
>>also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did
>>provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag,
>>whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration
>on
>>a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and
>>the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call
>it
>>anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
>>help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or
>>hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
>>situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
>>flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
>>it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
>>
>>
>>
>>So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in
>>the
>>right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
>>non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating
>>and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some
>>pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be
>>the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who
>>might be willing to help in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>>Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
>>forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
>>
>>
>>
>>Earl White
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
>fast as 1 year
>http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearc
>h=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
>
>
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| Subject: | To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO |
conversion.
Earl,
I am a little concerned about the comment "fly off the necessary hours to
get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers"
Does that mean that the airplane has not been inspected by the FAA or DAR
for its airworthiness certificate?
>>Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work,
>>but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
>>
>>
>>
>>OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to
>>train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed
>>in
>>a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at
>a
>>90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
>>
>>
>>
>>Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
>>Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
>>without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's
>name
>>is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
>>
>>The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in
>>law about two years ago.
>>
>>It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so
>he
>>never leaves the pattern.
>>
>>
>>
>>This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
>>
>>Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
>>Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
>>
>>
>>
>>The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three
>>bladed
>>prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without
>>a
>>problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in
>the
>>items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for
>>the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his
>>medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been
>>trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's
>>homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax
>>912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under
>>the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or
>>cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220
>in
>>about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the
>>ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on
>the
>>crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop
>>off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several
>>other
>>arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square,
>and
>>also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did
>>provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag,
>>whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration
>on
>>a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and
>>the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call
>it
>>anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
>>help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or
>>hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
>>situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
>>flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
>>it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
>>
>>
>>
>>So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in
>>the
>>right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
>>non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating
>>and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some
>>pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be
>>the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who
>>might be willing to help in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>>Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
>>forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
>>
>>
>>
>>Earl White
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
>fast as 1 year
>http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearc
>h=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Safety Cable Attached to Engine |
Sorry to be a bit late to the thread on this but was out of town on work.
In answer to the question about whether safety cables have ever saved a life, the
answer is definitely. The formula one racers turn high rpms on their O-200s
and are required to have cables. There've been some engines kept in the mount
that demonstrate the idea has value.
As for how to install the cable, you can get somewhat creative, as Dave's post
shows. The idea is to simply keep the weight of the engine as close to it's original
location as possible if the mount breaks.
Two thoughts with respect to props breaking. If one blades leaves, the cg change
may not be so radical, which is a good thing, but the whirling asymmetric load
can pull the engine out of the mount or break the mount. If one blade breaks,
the instant change in prop loading can lead to separation of other blades.
If all blades do separate, the engine is less likely to be thrown out of the
mounts, but losing the prop weight on the nose instantaneously throws the cg
aft, the tail goes down, and the pilot better be able to respond really fast if
he's close to the ground. With the light props on Kitfoxes, this will probably
be just a fast pitch-up, but we had a Bonanza lose a prop (much heavier prop
than GSC) on approach to Gaithersburg when the owner was trying to go-around
after the prop ticked the runway. The airplane stalled at about 30-40 feet altitude,
fatal to him and wife.
Second thought if you've lost a prop blade(s) is to make sure to do a really good
disassembly and inspection of the mount, airframe behind it, all welds, a run-out
inspection of the prop shaft, mounting of accessories (like the loose carb
mentioned), and anything else that high side/pulse loads may have affected.
Seriously consider whether an engine tear-down is needed, as the rpms went
astronomical for at least a short time when the prop wasn't there.
>From the forensic aspect, it would be good for the community to determine which
blade went first, then why. This is an art that will cost money and is not something
that can be done by photos in a chat group, or by non-specialists.
Bob
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97189#97189
Message 5
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| Subject: | Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Hi Clem:
On this subject I would like to relate a little story in the life of my NSI
equipped Kitfox5.
My airplane's first flight was in May 1996. I was very anxious to fly into
small grass strips for breakfast fly-ins and such. As the summer progressed
I noticed an ever increasing coolant temperature. I related this info to
Lance Wheeler and he suggested that I replace the originally furnished brass
radiator with his new aluminum one, which I did. The results were pleasingly
dramatic. The old brass radiator was sitting in the corner of my workbench
and at the end of my annual inspection that winter I decided to find a more
suitable permanent resting place for it, up on the shelves. As I looked at
the radiator a little more closely, I noticed that it was well over 50%
plugged up by mostly bugs and insects. I guess flying in and out of grass
stips is somewhat detrimental to water cooled engines. Particularly on
takeoff with full power the prop sucks up everything in its path and shoves
it into the radiator. The buildup will soon deminish the air flow through
the radiator, thus reducing the cooling capacity. It is now part of my
annual inspection to thoroughly clean the fins of the radiator. Sometimes it
is necessary to repeat that once or twice in the summer/fall. I haven't had
any cooling problems since.
Peter Graichen
http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm
________________________________
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem Nichols
Sent: Sunday, 25 February, 2007 08:33
Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
Floyd:
Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK
during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat
during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight.
Thanks
Clem Nichols
Message 6
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| Subject: | Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Clem,
Contact me off list.
Rick
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem
Nichols
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 5:33 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
Floyd:
Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does
OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to
overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level
flight.
Thanks
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: Floyd <mailto:kitfox69@earthlink.net> Johnson
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
the GEO conversion.
Hi Earl,
Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your
problem to him. He will get it worked out for you.
I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I
think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will
contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that
fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of
the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum
flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the
radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and
directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of
overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Don <mailto:donpearsall@comcast.net> Pearsall
Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on
the GEO conversion.
Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is
obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream
finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through
the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance.
Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and
a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low
pressure behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high
and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show
this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own
custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the
GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to
work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had
to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got
killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and
we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to
react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email.
Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does
without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's
name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father
in law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so
he never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down.
Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three
bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the
ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in
the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the
GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost
his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and
has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready
for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator
from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across
the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there
was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the
temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would
never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would
wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and
the r pm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a
downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger
radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below
the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying
time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the
airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the
plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large
area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it
anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to
help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated
or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this
situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a
more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating
problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in
the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the
non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT
overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how.
Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to
answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer
any and all who might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to
forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the oil
pan, between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help reduce the oil
temperature?
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 8
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| Subject: | FW: KITFOX FLY-IN |
This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is going to
Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation.
_________________
Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:27 AM
Subject: KITFOX FLY-IN
Good Morning Don
I have talked with John McBean about a group of Kitfoxes flying into OSH on
the first day of the fly-in.
EAA Chapter 431 is having a small fly-in ( Pietenpol - Hatz ) July 20-21-22
and the Kitfox pilots are welcome
to join in.. We are at the Brodhead Airport ( C37 ) for most Kitfoxes that
is only a 1 hour flight to OSH. We have a
neat airport that will take you back 50 years in aviation. Check out our
web site at www.eaa431.org .....
I am not on the Kitfox list and was wondering if you would get this on the
list to see if there is any interest in doing a mass
Kitfox fly-in to OSH... We have fuel and food. 100LL and 93 oct Mogas
we serve breakfast, lunch and supper on Friday
and Saturday.. If anyone want more information they can email me at
kitfox99gc@charter.net or call 608-754-2774...
Thanks Gene Calkins
Message 9
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This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now and July, t
here may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to fly in to
Oshkosh on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I fly in w
ith our two Foxes on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a row for Kitfox
es near the north end of the flight line. For those of you who camp with
your planes, this may or may not be an issue. If we were to all fly in
on the first day of the show as planned, it would be difficult to park t
ogether.
Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we co
uld attend on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday after w
e enjoy breakfast at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead?
Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the
way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chi
cago.
Rex in Michigan
-- "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net> wrote:
This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is goin
g to Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation.
<html><P>This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now an
d July, there may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to
fly in to Oshkosh on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I
fly in with our two Foxes on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a&
nbsp;row for Kitfoxes near the north end of the flight line. For th
ose of you who camp with your planes, this may or may not be an issue. I
f we were to all fly in on the first day of the show as planned, it woul
d be difficult to park together.</P>
<P>Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we
could attend on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday afte
r we enjoy breakfast at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead? </P>
<P>Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea
! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and
a bit south of Chicago.</P>
<P>Rex in Michigan</P>
<P><BR><BR>-- "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net&
gt; wrote:<BR></P>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; mso-fareast-font-fam
ily: 'Times New Roman'">This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builde
r.</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">&nbs
p;<SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Everybody who is going to Oshkosh shoul
d consider flying in as a formation.</SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></html
>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 10
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Correction. Brodhead (corrected spelling now) is west and a bit southe o
f Milwaukee, not Chicago. I need a secretary today.
Do not archive.
Rex
-- "Rexster" <runwayrex@juno.com> wrote:
some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way,
I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago.
<html><P>Correction. Brodhead (corrected spelling now) is west and
a bit southe of Milwaukee, not Chicago. I need a secretary today. <
/P>
<P>Do not archive.</P>
<P>Rex<BR><BR>-- "Rexster" <runwayrex@juno.com> wro
te:<BR></P>
<P>some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By
the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit
south of Chicago.</P>
<P><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" color=#000000 size=2></B></
FONT> </P>
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Peter:
I gave the radiator an external "flushing" last summer, and did seem to
notice some improvement even though there were no bugs, grass, etc., readily
visible on it. Perhaps there was some thin dirt buildup from flying off a
wet turf field that wasn't apparent the way bugs, etc. would be. Certainly
none of the openings were completely plugged. If I have the same problem
this summer I may flush the engine and radiator, and see if that helps. I
remember someone not too long ago talking about finding a bunch of "goop" in
an NSI engine. All that aside, however, I'd still like to see what Floyd
did to make a cowl for his radiator as mine does not have one, and I
consider myself somewhat conceptually challenged.
Thanks,
Clem Nichols
-----
>
> Hi Clem:
> On this subject I would like to relate a little story in the life of my
> NSI
> equipped Kitfox5.
> . I related this info to
> Lance Wheeler and he suggested that I replace the originally furnished
> brass
> radiator with his new aluminum one, which I did. The old brass radiator
> was sitting in the corner of my workbench
> and at the end of my annual inspection that winter I decided to find a
> more
> suitable permanent resting place for it, up on the shelves. As I looked at
> the radiator a little more closely, I noticed that it was well over 50%
> plugged up by mostly bugs and insects. I guess flying in and out of grass
> stips is somewhat detrimental to water cooled engines. It is now part of
> my
> annual inspection to thoroughly clean the fins of the radiator. Sometimes
> it
> is necessary to repeat that once or twice in the summer/fall. I haven't
> had
> any cooling problems since.
> Peter Graichen
> http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem Nichols
> Sent: Sunday, 25 February, 2007 08:33
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
>
>
> Floyd:
>
> Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK
> during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat
> during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight.
>
> Thanks
> Clem Nichols
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
That certainly sounds worth considering. Has anyone tried it?
----- Original Message -----
From: GENTRYLL@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the
oil pan, between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help
reduce the oil temperature?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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from AOL at
657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom"
target="_blank">AOL.com.
Message 13
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Gene, it would be great to have a Kitfox flyin at Osh and I would like
to participate but I so strongly oppose the Bonanza and Mooney flyins
that I can't advise it. I like to be there a day or two before the
convention starts and have had serious problems with these flyins. Last
year I had the same problem because of the accident on the day before
the convention. But if enought people want to do it I will try to get
involved.
Barry West
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: KITFOX FLY-IN |
A kitfox flight into Oshkosh is a good idea. Two turf runways, unattended. Camping
should be no problem. Look for Brodhead (C37) Northwest of Chicago, over
the border in Wisconsin, just West of Janesville (JVL)
Herb Gottelt,M4,
Mt. Prospect IL
Rexster <runwayrex@juno.com> wrote:
This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now and July, there
may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to fly in to Oshkosh
on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I fly in with our two Foxes
on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a row for Kitfoxes near the north end
of the flight line. For those of you who camp with your planes, this may or may
not be an issue. If we were to all fly in on the first day of the show as planned,
it would be difficult to park together.
Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we could attend
on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday after we enjoy breakfast
at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead?
Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way,
I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago.
Rex in Michigan
-- "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net> wrote:
This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is going
to Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation.
Message 15
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I would like to buy a used Garmin296 if anyone is upgrading. The 496 up
grades don't work here in Alaska but I would like the 296 to help me lea
rn to fly. I bought a KF S5 last fall but it's stuck in Snahomish, Wa t
ill I can get decent weather and I can find someone to fly it to Alaska
for me. I DON'T want to trailer it up the Al-Can hiway under any circum
stances but if anyone on the list has any other suggestions please let m
e know. Layne
________________________________________________________________________
FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com
Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again!
http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.c
om/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752
<html>I would like to buy a used Garmin296 if anyone is upgrading.
The 496 upgrades don't work here in Alaska but I would like the 296 to
help me learn to fly. I bought a KF S5 last fall but it's stuck in
Snahomish, Wa till I can get decent weather and I can find someone
to fly it to Alaska for me. I DON'T want to trailer it up th
e Al-Can hiway under any circumstances but if anyone on the list has any
other suggestions please let me know. Layne </h
tml>
<font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>______________________
__________________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.american
greetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752"><B>FREE</B> Remin
der Service - <B>NEW</B> from AmericanGreetings.com<br>
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Message 16
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On Feb 22, 2007, at 1:05 AM, paul wilson wrote:
> What is going on is 50 year old map data done by real people compared
> to state computerized locating device. It makes the cartographers
> look real bad.
Don't forget that prior to WGS84, the standard reference for GPS,
cartographers were using national reference systems, Paul. And there
are many, many of them. When the only available way to define a
position was astro-navigation, it wasn't that important. But with the
precision of satellite navigation, we came in need of a standard
reference. On most maritime charts, there is now an overprint that
says, Add so many minutes and seconds of latitude and longitude to
correct to WGS84. Many of the Norwegian charts may have as much as
several hundred yards offset.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New Web Site |
On Feb 24, 2007, at 12:58 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> The URL is http://highwingllc.com .
Nice site, Lowell. Congratulation and best of luck with your products.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
PS: Good decision to have the videos in Flash format.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
Klem,
I have the NSI cowl which I modified. I'll get some pictures later this week.
It is supposed to warm up here and be clear for a few hours. We only get these
conditions about every 52 1/2 days by decree of Mother Nature. The real reason
my cooling is under control now is because of the efforts of Jay Roese.
He now knows precicely what radiator the EA 81 needs. I suggest you talk to him.
The cost of a new radiator is worth the peace of mind. Meanwhile, I'll get
some pictures together for you.
Regards, Floyd
P.S. Jays cell: 585-729-5098
----- Original Message -----
From: Clem Nichols
Sent: 2/25/2007 8:43:59 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
Floyd:
Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK during
cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat during long
climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight.
Thanks
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: Floyd Johnson
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO
conversion.
Hi Earl,
Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him.
He will get it worked out for you.
I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and
get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator
builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also,
Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator
is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it
and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow
pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me
after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards,
Floyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Pearsall
Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO
conversion.
Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously
not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around
the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It
is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator
is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front
of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure.
I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many
builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure
they will chime in.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but
I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train
in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair
situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree
angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in
rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate
from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett
and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about
two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never
leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce
is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop.
I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items
included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason
of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could
no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off
the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and
certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system
and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the
airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling,
and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would
never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait
untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the r pm's
would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so
we tried several other arrangements with larger radia
tors. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage
directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense
of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or
60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was
definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for
the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course,
but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too
complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in
this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more
flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with
it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right
direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO
conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing
to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list
of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but
I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any
way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward
it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine |
I'm going tom jump in here and suggest you talk to Jay Roese about this one too.
He is privy to all the latest technology and can probably suggest something
which will fill the bill. Ie may not have it, but he sure can tell you where to
find it.
BTY, and this is not an advertizement, Jay built me a beautiful Tuned exhaust for
my EA 81 engine. It is simple and efficient.
We toned it down with a short insert in the straight section. Cool! Jay can be
reached at: 585-729-5098
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 2/25/2007 11:14:10 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine
Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the oil pan,
between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help reduce the oil temperature?
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| Subject: | NSI Radiator Mods |
Floyd:
Thanks for your reply, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you did.
I'll keep Jay's number on hand in case nothing else works out.
Modifying the cowl would probably be a cheaper solution, but might be
beyond my ability to accomplish.
Clem Nichols
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| Subject: | wheel penetrating ski \\plans |
can someone direct me to a set of wheel penetrating ski plans? a site to
download from or something. I saw a set go for moor than $600 on ebay last
month . I want to build a set for next year mal
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