---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/25/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols) 2. 05:41 AM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Bradley M Webb) 3. 05:59 AM - Re: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. (Michael Logan) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: Safety Cable Attached to Engine (Bob) 5. 07:43 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Peter Graichen) 6. 07:51 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Rick) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (GENTRYLL@aol.com) 8. 08:50 AM - FW: KITFOX FLY-IN (Don Pearsall) 9. 09:50 AM - KITFOX FLY-IN (Rexster) 10. 10:21 AM - KITFOX FLY-IN (Rexster) 11. 11:17 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols) 12. 11:18 AM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Clem Nichols) 13. 11:25 AM - (Barry West) 14. 12:16 PM - Re: KITFOX FLY-IN (Herbert R Gottelt) 15. 01:26 PM - 296 gps wanted (debrun26@juno.com) 16. 02:12 PM - Re: GPS info (Michel Verheughe) 17. 02:13 PM - Re: New Web Site (Michel Verheughe) 18. 02:16 PM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Floyd Johnson) 19. 02:26 PM - Re: Radiator Mods for NSI engine (Floyd Johnson) 20. 02:49 PM - NSI Radiator Mods (Clem Nichols) 21. 07:16 PM - wheel penetrating ski \\plans (Malcolmbru@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:05 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Floyd: Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight. Thanks Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: Floyd Johnson To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Hi Earl, Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him. He will get it worked out for you. I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Pearsall To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too. I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it. The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in. Don Pearsall From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right. OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react. Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes. The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago. It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern. This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird. Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license. The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem. Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the r pm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far. So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way. Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all. Thanks and hello from North Idaho! Earl White - The Kitfox-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:02 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. I'm not prepared to do that yet publicly. I don't have much time on it, and I am still sorting out some detail items (cooling on hot days). Once I get things adjusted to where I want them, then we'll talk numbers. Suffice it to say I'm happy so far. Raven Design has good support, and the installation is where I expected it to be. Bradley >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- >server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick >Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:39 PM >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on >the GEO conversion. > > >Bradley Please give us some performance numbers. Empty weight, rate of >climb, top speed etc. Ron NB Ore > > >>From: "Bradley M Webb" >>To: >>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on >>the GEO conversion. >>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:53:55 -0500 >> >>Earl, >> >>I am flying a Geo 1.0L G10 on my Kitfox 2. I have an aftermarket radiator >>inside the stock KF cowl, and I'm using the Raven system as well. So far, >>it >>is a real gem. It is heavier than a 582, but much more reliable and is >>better economically. >> >> >> >>Right now, I am running at 208F water temp, and am slowly working to get >it >>lower. 220F is not too hot, IF you adhere to certain axioms. The G13 has >>been proven to fly at 230F for short periods, with no issues. Remember, >>this >>is not a Rotax. It can take the heat without killing you. But it's not >good >>in the long term. >> >> >> >>I suggest you subscribe to the Yahoo FlyGeo newsgroups. There are two of >>them. We just discussed this very issue at length, so a short search will >>yield many answers. For example, the water pump may be cavitating at high >>RPM, the intake hose may be crushing, or the thermostat may be causing the >>radiator cap to burp fluid. Only assumptions, but these are the things I >>learned on the group to watch for - all of which are very fixable, once >you >>find out if the problem exists. >> >> >> >>We have quite a few very knowledgeable people there, who now much about >>these engines. Also, Raven monitors the group, and pipes up when needed. >> >> >> >>Also, if you have the Raven drive, contact Jeron there. He is very >helpful, >>and can point you in the right direction. If you email me directly, I >would >>be glad to help in any way I can. I am very happy with my conversion. >> >>Bradley >> >> >> >> _____ >> >>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White >>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:49 PM >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the >>GEO >>conversion. >> >> >> >>Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, >>but I will keep trying untill I get it right. >> >> >> >>OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to >>train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed >>in >>a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at >a >>90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react. >> >> >> >>Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. >>Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does >>without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's >name >>is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes. >> >>The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in >>law about two years ago. >> >>It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so >he >>never leaves the pattern. >> >> >> >>This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird. >> >>Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. >>Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license. >> >> >> >>The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three >>bladed >>prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without >>a >>problem. >> >> >> >>Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in >the >>items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for >>the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his >>medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been >>trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's >>homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax >>912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under >>the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or >>cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 >in >>about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the >>ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on >the >>crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop >>off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several >>other >>arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, >and >>also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did >>provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, >>whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration >on >>a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and >>the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call >it >>anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to >>help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or >>hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this >>situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more >>flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with >>it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far. >> >> >> >>So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in >>the >>right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the >>non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating >>and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some >>pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be >>the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who >>might be willing to help in any way. >> >> >> >>Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to >>forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all. >> >> >> >>Thanks and hello from North Idaho! >> >> >> >>Earl White >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as >fast as 1 year >http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearc >h=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:45 AM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Earl, I am a little concerned about the comment "fly off the necessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers" Does that mean that the airplane has not been inspected by the FAA or DAR for its airworthiness certificate? >>Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, >>but I will keep trying untill I get it right. >> >> >> >>OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to >>train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed >>in >>a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at >a >>90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react. >> >> >> >>Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. >>Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does >>without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's >name >>is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes. >> >>The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in >>law about two years ago. >> >>It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so >he >>never leaves the pattern. >> >> >> >>This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird. >> >>Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. >>Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license. >> >> >> >>The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three >>bladed >>prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without >>a >>problem. >> >> >> >>Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in >the >>items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for >>the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his >>medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been >>trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's >>homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax >>912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under >>the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or >>cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 >in >>about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the >>ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on >the >>crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop >>off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several >>other >>arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, >and >>also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did >>provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, >>whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration >on >>a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and >>the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call >it >>anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to >>help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or >>hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this >>situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more >>flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with >>it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far. >> >> >> >>So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in >>the >>right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the >>non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating >>and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some >>pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be >>the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who >>might be willing to help in any way. >> >> >> >>Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to >>forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all. >> >> >> >>Thanks and hello from North Idaho! >> >> >> >>Earl White >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as >fast as 1 year >http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearc >h=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:14 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Safety Cable Attached to Engine From: "Bob" Sorry to be a bit late to the thread on this but was out of town on work. In answer to the question about whether safety cables have ever saved a life, the answer is definitely. The formula one racers turn high rpms on their O-200s and are required to have cables. There've been some engines kept in the mount that demonstrate the idea has value. As for how to install the cable, you can get somewhat creative, as Dave's post shows. The idea is to simply keep the weight of the engine as close to it's original location as possible if the mount breaks. Two thoughts with respect to props breaking. If one blades leaves, the cg change may not be so radical, which is a good thing, but the whirling asymmetric load can pull the engine out of the mount or break the mount. If one blade breaks, the instant change in prop loading can lead to separation of other blades. If all blades do separate, the engine is less likely to be thrown out of the mounts, but losing the prop weight on the nose instantaneously throws the cg aft, the tail goes down, and the pilot better be able to respond really fast if he's close to the ground. With the light props on Kitfoxes, this will probably be just a fast pitch-up, but we had a Bonanza lose a prop (much heavier prop than GSC) on approach to Gaithersburg when the owner was trying to go-around after the prop ticked the runway. The airplane stalled at about 30-40 feet altitude, fatal to him and wife. Second thought if you've lost a prop blade(s) is to make sure to do a really good disassembly and inspection of the mount, airframe behind it, all welds, a run-out inspection of the prop shaft, mounting of accessories (like the loose carb mentioned), and anything else that high side/pulse loads may have affected. Seriously consider whether an engine tear-down is needed, as the rpms went astronomical for at least a short time when the prop wasn't there. >From the forensic aspect, it would be good for the community to determine which blade went first, then why. This is an art that will cost money and is not something that can be done by photos in a chat group, or by non-specialists. Bob -------- Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97189#97189 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:15 AM PST US From: "Peter Graichen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Hi Clem: On this subject I would like to relate a little story in the life of my NSI equipped Kitfox5. My airplane's first flight was in May 1996. I was very anxious to fly into small grass strips for breakfast fly-ins and such. As the summer progressed I noticed an ever increasing coolant temperature. I related this info to Lance Wheeler and he suggested that I replace the originally furnished brass radiator with his new aluminum one, which I did. The results were pleasingly dramatic. The old brass radiator was sitting in the corner of my workbench and at the end of my annual inspection that winter I decided to find a more suitable permanent resting place for it, up on the shelves. As I looked at the radiator a little more closely, I noticed that it was well over 50% plugged up by mostly bugs and insects. I guess flying in and out of grass stips is somewhat detrimental to water cooled engines. Particularly on takeoff with full power the prop sucks up everything in its path and shoves it into the radiator. The buildup will soon deminish the air flow through the radiator, thus reducing the cooling capacity. It is now part of my annual inspection to thoroughly clean the fins of the radiator. Sometimes it is necessary to repeat that once or twice in the summer/fall. I haven't had any cooling problems since. Peter Graichen http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm ________________________________ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem Nichols Sent: Sunday, 25 February, 2007 08:33 Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Floyd: Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight. Thanks Clem Nichols ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:39 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Clem, Contact me off list. Rick do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem Nichols Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 5:33 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Floyd: Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight. Thanks Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: Floyd Johnson Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Hi Earl, Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him. He will get it worked out for you. I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Pearsall Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too. I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it. The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in. Don Pearsall From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right. OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react. Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes. The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago. It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern. This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird. Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license. The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem. Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the r pm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far. So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way. Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all. Thanks and hello from North Idaho! Earl White - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:00 AM PST US From: GENTRYLL@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the oil pan, between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help reduce the oil temperature?


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:56 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: Kitfox-List: FW: KITFOX FLY-IN This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is going to Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation. _________________ Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:27 AM Subject: KITFOX FLY-IN Good Morning Don I have talked with John McBean about a group of Kitfoxes flying into OSH on the first day of the fly-in. EAA Chapter 431 is having a small fly-in ( Pietenpol - Hatz ) July 20-21-22 and the Kitfox pilots are welcome to join in.. We are at the Brodhead Airport ( C37 ) for most Kitfoxes that is only a 1 hour flight to OSH. We have a neat airport that will take you back 50 years in aviation. Check out our web site at www.eaa431.org ..... I am not on the Kitfox list and was wondering if you would get this on the list to see if there is any interest in doing a mass Kitfox fly-in to OSH... We have fuel and food. 100LL and 93 oct Mogas we serve breakfast, lunch and supper on Friday and Saturday.. If anyone want more information they can email me at kitfox99gc@charter.net or call 608-754-2774... Thanks Gene Calkins ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:03 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: KITFOX FLY-IN This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now and July, t here may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to fly in to Oshkosh on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I fly in w ith our two Foxes on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a row for Kitfox es near the north end of the flight line. For those of you who camp with your planes, this may or may not be an issue. If we were to all fly in on the first day of the show as planned, it would be difficult to park t ogether. Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we co uld attend on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday after w e enjoy breakfast at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead? Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chi cago. Rex in Michigan -- "Don Pearsall" wrote: This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is goin g to Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation.

This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now an d July, there may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to fly in to Oshkosh on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I fly in with our two Foxes on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a& nbsp;row for Kitfoxes near the north end of the flight line. For th ose of you who camp with your planes, this may or may not be an issue. I f we were to all fly in on the first day of the show as planned, it woul d be difficult to park together.

Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we could attend on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday afte r we enjoy breakfast at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead?

Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea ! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago.

Rex in Michigan



-- "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net& gt; wrote:

This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builde r.&nbs p;Everybody who is going to Oshkosh shoul d consider flying in as a formation.
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:47 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: KITFOX FLY-IN Correction. Brodhead (corrected spelling now) is west and a bit southe o f Milwaukee, not Chicago. I need a secretary today. Do not archive. Rex -- "Rexster" wrote: some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago.

Correction. Brodhead (corrected spelling now) is west and a bit southe of Milwaukee, not Chicago. I need a secretary today. < /P>

Do not archive.

Rex

-- "Rexster" <runwayrex@juno.com> wro te:

some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago.

 
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:23 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Peter: I gave the radiator an external "flushing" last summer, and did seem to notice some improvement even though there were no bugs, grass, etc., readily visible on it. Perhaps there was some thin dirt buildup from flying off a wet turf field that wasn't apparent the way bugs, etc. would be. Certainly none of the openings were completely plugged. If I have the same problem this summer I may flush the engine and radiator, and see if that helps. I remember someone not too long ago talking about finding a bunch of "goop" in an NSI engine. All that aside, however, I'd still like to see what Floyd did to make a cowl for his radiator as mine does not have one, and I consider myself somewhat conceptually challenged. Thanks, Clem Nichols ----- > > Hi Clem: > On this subject I would like to relate a little story in the life of my > NSI > equipped Kitfox5. > . I related this info to > Lance Wheeler and he suggested that I replace the originally furnished > brass > radiator with his new aluminum one, which I did. The old brass radiator > was sitting in the corner of my workbench > and at the end of my annual inspection that winter I decided to find a > more > suitable permanent resting place for it, up on the shelves. As I looked at > the radiator a little more closely, I noticed that it was well over 50% > plugged up by mostly bugs and insects. I guess flying in and out of grass > stips is somewhat detrimental to water cooled engines. It is now part of > my > annual inspection to thoroughly clean the fins of the radiator. Sometimes > it > is necessary to repeat that once or twice in the summer/fall. I haven't > had > any cooling problems since. > Peter Graichen > http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm > ________________________________ > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clem Nichols > Sent: Sunday, 25 February, 2007 08:33 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine > > > Floyd: > > Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK > during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat > during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight. > > Thanks > Clem Nichols > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:28 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine That certainly sounds worth considering. Has anyone tried it? ----- Original Message ----- From: GENTRYLL@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the oil pan, between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help reduce the oil temperature? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at 657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:09 AM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Kitfox-List: Gene, it would be great to have a Kitfox flyin at Osh and I would like to participate but I so strongly oppose the Bonanza and Mooney flyins that I can't advise it. I like to be there a day or two before the convention starts and have had serious problems with these flyins. Last year I had the same problem because of the accident on the day before the convention. But if enought people want to do it I will try to get involved. Barry West ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:41 PM PST US From: Herbert R Gottelt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KITFOX FLY-IN A kitfox flight into Oshkosh is a good idea. Two turf runways, unattended. Camping should be no problem. Look for Brodhead (C37) Northwest of Chicago, over the border in Wisconsin, just West of Janesville (JVL) Herb Gottelt,M4, Mt. Prospect IL Rexster wrote: This sounds like a great idea. I'm guessing that between now and July, there may be some good discussion about this. I would prefer to fly in to Oshkosh on an earlier date though. Normally, Mike Fisher and I fly in with our two Foxes on Saturday or even Friday to reserve a row for Kitfoxes near the north end of the flight line. For those of you who camp with your planes, this may or may not be an issue. If we were to all fly in on the first day of the show as planned, it would be difficult to park together. Since the Broadhead Airport Fly-in runs Friday and Saturday, maybe we could attend on Friday and do our formation to Oshkosh on Saturday after we enjoy breakfast at Broadhead. Is there camping at Broadhead? Just some thoughts to start the discussion. I'm liking this idea! By the way, I found Broadhead on a chart.......... west and a bit south of Chicago. Rex in Michigan -- "Don Pearsall" wrote: This is from Gene Calkins, a long-time KF builder. Everybody who is going to Oshkosh should consider flying in as a formation. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:54 PM PST US From: "debrun26@juno.com" Subject: Kitfox-List: 296 gps wanted I would like to buy a used Garmin296 if anyone is upgrading. The 496 up grades don't work here in Alaska but I would like the 296 to help me lea rn to fly. I bought a KF S5 last fall but it's stuck in Snahomish, Wa t ill I can get decent weather and I can find someone to fly it to Alaska for me. I DON'T want to trailer it up the Al-Can hiway under any circum stances but if anyone on the list has any other suggestions please let m e know. Layne ________________________________________________________________________ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.c om/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752 I would like to buy a used Garmin296 if anyone is upgrading.  The 496 upgrades don't work here in Alaska but I would like the 296 to help me learn to fly.  I bought a KF S5 last fall but it's stuck in Snahomish, Wa till I can get decent weather and I can find someone to fly it to Alaska for me.  I DON'T want to trailer it up th e Al-Can hiway under any circumstances but if anyone on the list has any other suggestions please let me know.    Layne 

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________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:09 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS info On Feb 22, 2007, at 1:05 AM, paul wilson wrote: > What is going on is 50 year old map data done by real people compared > to state computerized locating device. It makes the cartographers > look real bad. Don't forget that prior to WGS84, the standard reference for GPS, cartographers were using national reference systems, Paul. And there are many, many of them. When the only available way to define a position was astro-navigation, it wasn't that important. But with the precision of satellite navigation, we came in need of a standard reference. On most maritime charts, there is now an overprint that says, Add so many minutes and seconds of latitude and longitude to correct to WGS84. Many of the Norwegian charts may have as much as several hundred yards offset. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:46 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New Web Site On Feb 24, 2007, at 12:58 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > The URL is http://highwingllc.com . Nice site, Lowell. Congratulation and best of luck with your products. Cheers, Michel do not archive PS: Good decision to have the videos in Flash format. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:58 PM PST US From: "Floyd Johnson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Klem, I have the NSI cowl which I modified. I'll get some pictures later this week. It is supposed to warm up here and be clear for a few hours. We only get these conditions about every 52 1/2 days by decree of Mother Nature. The real reason my cooling is under control now is because of the efforts of Jay Roese. He now knows precicely what radiator the EA 81 needs. I suggest you talk to him. The cost of a new radiator is worth the peace of mind. Meanwhile, I'll get some pictures together for you. Regards, Floyd P.S. Jays cell: 585-729-5098 ----- Original Message ----- From: Clem Nichols Sent: 2/25/2007 8:43:59 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Floyd: Any pictures available on your radiator modification? My NSI EA81 does OK during cooler weather, but in the summer it has a tendency to overheat during long climbs, and the cooling is only marginal at level flight. Thanks Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: Floyd Johnson Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Hi Earl, Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him. He will get it worked out for you. I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Pearsall Sent: 2/24/2007 11:45:12 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too. I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it. The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in. Don Pearsall From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion. Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right. OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react. Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes. The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago. It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern. This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird. Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license. The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem. Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the r pm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radia tors. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far. So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way. Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all. Thanks and hello from North Idaho! Earl White - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:04 PM PST US From: "Floyd Johnson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine I'm going tom jump in here and suggest you talk to Jay Roese about this one too. He is privy to all the latest technology and can probably suggest something which will fill the bill. Ie may not have it, but he sure can tell you where to find it. BTY, and this is not an advertizement, Jay built me a beautiful Tuned exhaust for my EA 81 engine. It is simple and efficient. We toned it down with a short insert in the straight section. Cool! Jay can be reached at: 585-729-5098 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 2/25/2007 11:14:10 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods for NSI engine Would it be practical to put some fiberfax or similiar material on the oil pan, between it and the muffler on the NSI installation, to help reduce the oil temperature? AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at 657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:41 PM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Kitfox-List: NSI Radiator Mods Floyd: Thanks for your reply, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you did. I'll keep Jay's number on hand in case nothing else works out. Modifying the cowl would probably be a cheaper solution, but might be beyond my ability to accomplish. Clem Nichols Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:16 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: wheel penetrating ski \\plans can someone direct me to a set of wheel penetrating ski plans? a site to download from or something. I saw a set go for moor than $600 on ebay last month . I want to build a set for next year mal


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