---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/01/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:41 AM - Re: Rotax service (Brent E Bidus) 2. 02:03 PM - Re: CO2 ??? (John Hepner) 3. 04:39 PM - 912 Carbs (Todd Leiss) 4. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: CO2 ??? (john perry) 5. 05:38 PM - CO or CO2 (Rex Shaw) 6. 06:49 PM - Rated Capacitor Voltage (Rex Shaw) 7. 06:53 PM - Re: 912 Carbs (TC) 8. 07:31 PM - Re: 912 Carbs (Lowell Fitt) 9. 08:49 PM - Re: Rated Capacitor Voltage (Noel Loveys) 10. 09:30 PM - Re: 912 Carbs (Todd Leiss) 11. 11:31 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 12. 11:34 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax service From: Brent E Bidus Thanks to all who responded. I've got a few good choices now. Brent Bidus On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:44:04 EST Mdkitfox@aol.com writes: > Brent, > > I would highly recommend Lockwood Aviation in Sebring Florida. > While I > haven't sent them my engine for work, yet, I have taken their 912 > maintenance > course. (which I recommend without reservation) I also have talked > with their > mechanics and watched as they worked on customers engines. They > are a first > class operation, they know the Rotax, and they know homebuilders, > and will > work with you. > > Rick Weiss > Series V Speedster - N39RW > DO NOT ARCHIVE >


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AOL now > offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:17 PM PST US From: John Hepner Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CO2 ??? Just out of curiosity...those posting about CO2 in the cockpit.......do you really mean Carbon Monoxide, CO? >---------------------------------------------------------- > Kitfox-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 02/28/07: 29 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >Today's Message Index: >---------------------- > > 1. 01:12 AM - Re: Good bye for a while. (Michael Gibbs) > 2. 03:26 AM - Re: Good bye for a while. (Michel Verheughe) > 3. 05:11 AM - Re: CO2 in Cockpit (fox5flyer) > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:28 PM PST US From: "Todd Leiss" Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Carbs Looking for some help. My Rotax 912UL is running very rough at Idle. Also have fuel running out the vent tubes unless idle is above 2400rpm. I have rebuilt both carbs (Bing 64) with kits from Bing. Initial set-up as described in the Bing instructions. I have synchronize the carbs with duel vacuum gauges. However, adjusting the mixture screws has virtually no effect in RPM or the vacuum gauge readings. Ignition is working fine, all new plugs. All new connectors and good drop-offs when switching A or B (Mag Check). I have compared my engines performance with two other 912 equipped planes on the field. Mine is much rougher at low and medium speeds. One question is if the Carb piston vents go towards the intake manifold (as I have them) or the intake. Engine has 200 hours (192 by previous owner), 1 hour flight time since I've owned it and the rest are ground runs trying to get it running right. Thanks, Todd Leiss Kitfox IV Speedster N926JB Merritt Island Florida ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:35 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CO2 ??? HOws this Exhaust emmisions ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hepner" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CO2 ??? > > Just out of curiosity...those posting about CO2 in the cockpit.......do > you really mean Carbon Monoxide, CO? > >>---------------------------------------------------------- >> Kitfox-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Wed 02/28/07: 29 >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>Today's Message Index: >>---------------------- >> >> 1. 01:12 AM - Re: Good bye for a while. (Michael Gibbs) >> 2. 03:26 AM - Re: Good bye for a while. (Michel Verheughe) >> 3. 05:11 AM - Re: CO2 in Cockpit (fox5flyer) >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:44 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: CO or CO2 Just a small correction here. Isn't it supposed to be CO (carbon monoxide)? I think CO2 is carbon dioxide. Deke Sorry Deke, I know that but I guess I was half asleep. Rex. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:47 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rated Capacitor Voltage Last weekend when running my engine to check static RPM before first flight my noise capacitor blew. The engine has run several hours with no problems. I was told by one "airport bum" it was undersized (came from Skystar- 25 V). He indicated I needed at least 50V. David, you already have a lot of good advice on this but as a retired electronics tech I'll try to explain a bit more. First years ago all electrolytic capacitors [ that's what you are really talking about ] were marked not only with their capacity in microfarads [ mfd ] but the voltage. This voltage rating was actually two. One was working voltage and the other peak. Now that 12 volts you talk about as yours planes voltage is just really a figure of speech because even a good battery is about 12.6 volts or slightly more for an Odyssey type [ Absorbed Glass Mat ] When your battery is being charged by the alternator on the plane the voltage should be approx 13.8 volts however that 13. 8 is really an average. It's all happening many times a second but it's not a rock steady 13.8 volts that it might appear to be on your gauge on the panel if you have one. A graph of that voltage would show a lot of very fast or short duration spikes considerably above 13.8 volts. The 13.8 figure is an average. That's why electrolytic capacitors were marked working voltage [ 13.8 or more required ] and peak voltage. Generally twice 13.8 would be a good guide for peak requirements but it does depend on that waveform ie:- the size of those peaks. I would think one could not rule out seeing a 70 volt peak for a split second. Also we talk about 13.8 volts as controlled by our regulator but our club Jabiru for instance is often charging at 16 volts. Now this is not good for our battery if it happens all the time but we do need to allow for it when choosing our voltage rating for our capacitor plus we always go bit more for a safety margin like 20 volts rating. Electroytic capacitor manufacturers have stopped putting the two ratings on and my understanding is that the stated rating is the working voltage and if you want the peak you need to find information from the manufacturer or just guess as we all do from experience. OK so why wouldn't a 20 volt capacitor suffice. Well it rightfully should except we do have those high peaks on our waveform out of our alternator and regulator. Most regulators don't act quick enough to cut these sharp peaks. Also the crude method of shorting being used in the regulators these days does nothing to most of these peaks. So let's say I'm about right when I talk about 70 volt peaks and I'm also right in saying the peak rating of a capacitor is at best double the stated [ working ] voltage. What voltage do we then need ? Well as I said a miniumum of 20 volts but due to peaks that might be 70 volts we need to cover 70 plus a good safety margin so we will opt for 100. Now if the peak rating of a capacitor is double the stated voltage that means a 50 volt [ 1/2 of 100 ] rated capacitor is what is required. So why does a 50 volt capacitor sometimes still blow. Well normally it shouldn't and I guess normally it doesn't but if we get an odd higher peak than we expect perhaps due to a loose battery terminal or a million other reasons then we stand a good chance of blowing the capacitor. I think you will find a lot of one Farad capacitors used as noise suppressor and filter and reservoir in car stereo systems are rated at 100 volts for this reason. I don't think they state it but the 100 volt figure is peak. I guess they just choose to quote the higher figure and not define what it is because the higher figure looks better. They do that with wattage output figures on stereo systems all the time. Anyway if you want to do really well you could go for a one farad 100 volt capacitor. Be warned though they usually cost about $100 AU. On the other hand a 50 volt capacitor will probably be OK although you could lose it sometime and for that reason connecting in circiut with a fuse is a sensible precaution. Someone also mentioned reverse voltage spikes. Well it's generally considered an electrolytic can handle 10% of it's rating in this regard but it's not easy to know what might be required so I'd say in your case ignore that. In any case if that was a consideration I'd go for a data sheet rather than guess this one. Also as some one said "Are you sure you need the capacitor" I haven't got one but I do use a little circuit instead. A lot have no cicuit or capacitor and they are just fine. Hope all this helps. Rex. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:08 PM PST US From: "TC" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Carbs Todd, Fuel is running out the vent tubes due to the shaking of the carbs. The idle mixture needs to be established before syncing. Be sure the engine is at temp before trying to do any tuning. Do you have the Bing manual? I rebuilt mine late last year and it took some time to get them back into sync and running smoothly. Give Bing a call. Those guys are very helpful. Regards, Ted _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Leiss Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:38 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Carbs Looking for some help. My Rotax 912UL is running very rough at Idle. Also have fuel running out the vent tubes unless idle is above 2400rpm. I have rebuilt both carbs (Bing 64) with kits from Bing. Initial set-up as described in the Bing instructions. I have synchronize the carbs with duel vacuum gauges. However, adjusting the mixture screws has virtually no effect in RPM or the vacuum gauge readings. Ignition is working fine, all new plugs. All new connectors and good drop-offs when switching A or B (Mag Check). I have compared my engines performance with two other 912 equipped planes on the field. Mine is much rougher at low and medium speeds. One question is if the Carb piston vents go towards the intake manifold (as I have them) or the intake. Engine has 200 hours (192 by previous owner), 1 hour flight time since I've owned it and the rest are ground runs trying to get it running right. Thanks, Todd Leiss Kitfox IV Speedster N926JB Merritt Island Florida ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:02 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Carbs Hi Todd, I had the exact same problem after a rebuild with the Bing kit. I traced it to the carb float needles. Apparently they offer three types. I don't recall which ones are which, although they can be identified by color. The 912ULS has a black one, Mine are yellow metal, as I recall and the other ones are white metal. I finally had to go back to the old ones per the Rotax inspection procedures. Smothed right out and no more fuel dripping. The inspection procedure is issentially to look at the spring loaded pin end and if you see no wear under the crimp where the pin flange would be. They are good to go. I called Bing and learned this stuff, but got no satisfaction. That is why the change back to the old needles. Regarding the guages. It is my understanding that you set the cable lengths to balance the carbs. The start point of the idle jets is 1.5 turns from full closed. After the cables are adjused to balance the vacuum gauges, the jet can be tweeked to improve idle. What you are doing in this procedure is making sure the throttle butterflys are opening at the same time, hence the vacuum gauges. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Leiss" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 4:38 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Carbs > Looking for some help. > > My Rotax 912UL is running very rough at Idle. Also have fuel running out > the vent tubes unless idle is above 2400rpm. I have rebuilt both carbs > (Bing 64) with kits from Bing. Initial set-up as described in the Bing > instructions. I have synchronize the carbs with duel vacuum gauges. > However, adjusting the mixture screws has virtually no effect in RPM or > the vacuum gauge readings. Ignition is working fine, all new plugs. All > new connectors and good drop-offs when switching A or B (Mag Check). > > I have compared my engines performance with two other 912 equipped planes > on the field. Mine is much rougher at low and medium speeds. > > One question is if the Carb piston vents go towards the intake manifold > (as I have them) or the intake. > > Engine has 200 hours (192 by previous owner), 1 hour flight time since > I've owned it and the rest are ground runs trying to get it running right. > > Thanks, > > Todd Leiss > Kitfox IV Speedster > N926JB > Merritt Island Florida ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:51 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rated Capacitor Voltage Rex: I liked your explanations. I've seen caps with several thousand uF but I've never seen a one farad cap. When I was in school they told me you couldn't move a one farad cap with a semi rig. While this was probably a gross exaggeration isn't a one F cap a monster! What I was getting at was to be sure the capacitor was installed after the rectifier (new installation) and to be sure there wasn't something wrong with the rectifier bridge. Generally, when a lytic pops I go looking for a reason.... sometimes I find one, sometimes I don't. All the times I've looked at wave forms on a scope all the nasty voltage spikes all but disappeared when a battery was installed in the circuit. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Shaw Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 5:46 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Rated Capacitor Voltage Last weekend when running my engine to check static RPM before first flight my noise capacitor blew. The engine has run several hours with no problems. I was told by one "airport bum" it was undersized (came from Skystar- 25 V). He indicated I needed at least 50V. David, you already have a lot of good advice on this but as a retired electronics tech I'll try to explain a bit more. First years ago all electrolytic capacitors [ that's what you are really talking about ] were marked not only with their capacity in microfarads [ mfd ] but the voltage. This voltage rating was actually two. One was working voltage and the other peak. Now that 12 volts you talk about as yours planes voltage is just really a figure of speech because even a good battery is about 12.6 volts or slightly more for an Odyssey type [ Absorbed Glass Mat ] When your battery is being charged by the alternator on the plane the voltage should be approx 13.8 volts however that 13. 8 is really an average. It's all happening many times a second but it's not a rock steady 13.8 volts that it might appear to be on your gauge on the panel if you have one. A graph of that voltage would show a lot of very fast or short duration spikes considerably above 13.8 volts. The 13.8 figure is an average. That's why electrolytic capacitors were marked working voltage [ 13.8 or more required ] and peak voltage. Generally twice 13.8 would be a good guide for peak requirements but it does depend on that waveform ie:- the size of those peaks. I would think one could not rule out seeing a 70 volt peak for a split second. Also we talk about 13.8 volts as controlled by our regulator but our club Jabiru for instance is often charging at 16 volts. Now this is not good for our battery if it happens all the time but we do need to allow for it when choosing our voltage rating for our capacitor plus we always go bit more for a safety margin like 20 volts rating. Electroytic capacitor manufacturers have stopped putting the two ratings on and my understanding is that the stated rating is the working voltage and if you want the peak you need to find information from the manufacturer or just guess as we all do from experience. OK so why wouldn't a 20 volt capacitor suffice. Well it rightfully should except we do have those high peaks on our waveform out of our alternator and regulator. Most regulators don't act quick enough to cut these sharp peaks. Also the crude method of shorting being used in the regulators these days does nothing to most of these peaks. So let's say I'm about right when I talk about 70 volt peaks and I'm also right in saying the peak rating of a capacitor is at best double the stated [ working ] voltage. What voltage do we then need ? Well as I said a miniumum of 20 volts but due to peaks that might be 70 volts we need to cover 70 plus a good safety margin so we will opt for 100. Now if the peak rating of a capacitor is double the stated voltage that means a 50 volt [ 1/2 of 100 ] rated capacitor is what is required. So why does a 50 volt capacitor sometimes still blow. Well normally it shouldn't and I guess normally it doesn't but if we get an odd higher peak than we expect perhaps due to a loose battery terminal or a million other reasons then we stand a good chance of blowing the capacitor. I think you will find a lot of one Farad capacitors used as noise suppressor and filter and reservoir in car stereo systems are rated at 100 volts for this reason. I don't think they state it but the 100 volt figure is peak. I guess they just choose to quote the higher figure and not define what it is because the higher figure looks better. They do that with wattage output figures on stereo systems all the time. Anyway if you want to do really well you could go for a one farad 100 volt capacitor. Be warned though they usually cost about $100 AU. On the other hand a 50 volt capacitor will probably be OK although you could lose it sometime and for that reason connecting in circiut with a fuse is a sensible precaution. Someone also mentioned reverse voltage spikes. Well it's generally considered an electrolytic can handle 10% of it's rating in this regard but it's not easy to know what might be required so I'd say in your case ignore that. In any case if that was a consideration I'd go for a data sheet rather than guess this one. Also as some one said "Are you sure you need the capacitor" I haven't got one but I do use a little circuit instead. A lot have no cicuit or capacitor and they are just fine. Hope all this helps. Rex. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:47 PM PST US From: "Todd Leiss" Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: 912 Carbs Some more info on my carb problem: My vent tubes are the proscribed length (about 4 inches), and tucked under the float bowl spring clip. I have new Boots or Flanges. Vents under Carb inlets are free. Carbs are facing the correct way. Synchronized by the Lockwood method (two Vacuum gauges) adjusting the throttle cables as described in a "power-up" article. On the bottom of the Carb slide (with long needle valve set at proscribed clip position) there are two vent holes. Do these face the air filter or Intake manifold (as I have them)? I have a new (Jan 07) Fuel pump from Lockwood. I had ignition issues, which I solved, but around the same time my old fuel pump started to leak. The carbs didn't have the fuel running out the vents before the new pump, but it never occurred to me that the pump could be the problem. This may very well be the issue. I will definitely check with Lockwood tomorrow concerning the fuel pressure. Keep the wonderfully helpful cards and letters coming. All the Best, Todd > [Original Message] > From: Roger Lee > To: > Date: 3/1/2007 10:15:21 PM > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 Carbs > > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" > > Hi Todd, > > > Question: Are both carbs actting up in the same way? > > Those vents you describe on the carb throat edges are actually inlets. They must face out towards the air cleaner side or you will have the problems as you describe. These intakes help work the diaphram in the top of your carb for pressure changes. > > If this was the problem your home free, if not: > One of the things you need to check is your fuel pump pressure. There is a new service bulletin out on certain serial numbered engines that they want these pumps replaced. The symptoms are as you describe. The max pressure (without the manual in front of me) is 5.6 psi and some of these pumps are putting out in the 9psi range. > This type of pressure will cause what you have described. There is a replacement program as I understand it. > Your mixture screw should be set at 1.5 turns and left alone. Then you should set the carb's idel screw with the engine off and then while it is running. > > > My bet is that your carbs are facing the wrong way. > > Good luck! > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98230#98230 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:08 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kitfox-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:06 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.