Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:09 AM - : REPLY TO GENTRYLL : Nose gear converting for Classic IV (barryhuston)
2. 05:29 AM - Survivability (was door locks) (Bob)
3. 06:33 AM - Re: Door Locks? (wwillyard@aol.com)
4. 07:04 AM - Re: Door Locks? (kitfoxmike)
5. 07:52 AM - Re: Door Locks? (84KF)
6. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Door Locks? (Noel Loveys)
7. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Door Locks? (Guy Buchanan)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Door Locks? (kitfoxmike)
9. 09:04 AM - Electric Attitude (jareds)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Electric Attitude (fox5flyer)
11. 10:50 AM - Re: Electric Attitude (Michel Verheughe)
12. 11:01 AM - FW: Re: Door Locks? (clemwehner)
13. 11:05 AM - Re: Electric Attitude (jareds)
14. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Door Locks? (Noel Loveys)
15. 12:10 PM - Re: a/c smells (84KF)
16. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox website FAQ (Lowell Fitt)
17. 12:39 PM - Re: Door Locks? (Lowell Fitt)
18. 12:45 PM - Re: Electric Attitude (Lowell Fitt)
19. 01:14 PM - Re: Electric Attitude (jareds)
20. 03:46 PM - Re: Door Locks? (Cudnohufsky's)
21. 06:46 PM - Re: Door Locks? (wwillyard@AOL.COM)
22. 06:57 PM - Re: Electric Attitude (James Shumaker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | : REPLY TO GENTRYLL : Nose gear converting for Classic IV |
I am converting a 1992 Model IV - 1200 tail wheel to Tri-gear - John
McBean supplied everything.
The engine had to be suspended and disconnected from the motor mounts to
facilitate welding.
It did not involve disconnecting anything major since the engine had to be
tilted away a short distance
>From the bottom of the frame.
If you would like to discuss --- send me you phone number "off list" and I
will call you.
Barry
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GENTRYLL@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Nose gear convertion for Classic IV
Is this a conversion avaialble from Univar or does John handle them. Can it
be used on the older Kitfox's say 1993?
_____
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| Subject: | Survivability (was door locks) |
I'm not sure if you were serious about leaving access, but don't worry about doing
something special for emergency medical services (EMS). They are used to
steel car doors and I've seen them go through the windshield of a Canadair Challenger,
which is nearly 2 inches thick. A Kitfox door will probably pop open
on impact and even if not, and it is jammed so bad the latch doesn't work, the
door will be gone as soon as a big gloved hand pulls hard. As the Borg would
say, "resistance is futile."
Survivability is generally about deceleration in a survivable space without fire.
Unless falling out of a stall (bad in any tube airplane), these airplanes are
slow enough that survivability is pretty good in typical landing and takeoff
accidents.
Interesting to note that for off-airport ops, the Supercub crowd is increasingly using helmets after realizing that something like 3/4 of their fatailities have been head injuries (search www.supercub.org for specifics).
Bob
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99420#99420
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Nick, I installed locks in both my doors using cam-lock mechanisms purchased from
a lock shop. I had them keyed the same for simplicity. By attaching a small
piece of aluminum to the inside handle of the door latch, the cam-lock can be
used to secure the door without hindering normal door operation when in flight.
See attached photo.
Also here is a link that will show some of the many cam-lock options available.
http://www.monroeengineering.com/locks/Cam-Lock/index.htm
Bill W.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick@Scholtes1.com
> Is a locking mechanism for the KitFox IV doors already invented?
________________________________________________________________________
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The kitfox is not a bank vault. But, the thing I hate most is when people get
snoopy, or just want to see the experimental out front. Usually they want to
sit inside and play with the controls, of course without you knowing. Having
some sort of lock on the door takes care of this.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99436#99436
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"...the thing I hate most is when people get snoopy, or just want to see the experimental
out front. Usually they want to sit inside and play with the controls...."
Those non-aviation creeps should just learn to control their dreams and desires.
We need a new FAR.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99443#99443
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My main worry about leaving the plane out where unknowing people have easy
access to it is that many people don't realize the plane is actually covered
with cloth. On one occasion I had to stop one fellow form checking to see
if it really was cloth with his pocket knife. I live in an area where
snowmobiles are as common as grass. I've been asked, not if the engine came
out of a Ski-Doo but did I think it would fit in a Ski-Doo and have more
power.
I had a friend who had his Seawind 3000 vandalized and the idiot broke the
canopy and stole the battery. The next day he was stopped for speeding and
the Mountie saw the battery in the back of his truck. When he was asked
about the strange looking battery, I think it was a NiCad, he said it was
picked up from a friend the night before. His finger prints matched and he
was prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
In Gander, CYQX, at the seaplane base there is free open access to the
waterfront. A few years ago they put up signs asking people not to fish in
the vicinity of the planes. Since the signs went up there has been no
problems. The people are used to seeing planes and now don't bother them.
There are also better places to fish close to Gander. Of the dozen or so
planes docked there I don't know of any that are locked...those that have
ignition keys ( The beavers generally don't ) the keys are generally
removed. There are no locks on the moorings.
The past few years I've always towed my plane to the pond I fly from. This
costs me an extra hour or two in time to go flying and an extra hour or two
to get the plane back to the garage. More than once I towed the plane to
the beach, unfolded the wings, fuelled the plane and then had to undo
everything and tow back home. (a bit over a mile) In that time the worst
thing that can happen is to have someone offer to help me either launch or
recover the plane.
That was where the fellow was going to see for himself if the plane was
cloth covered. I asked him how he would feel about it if I were to hack a
piece out of his new truck with my knife... His answer was, "Sorry I never
thought about that".
Next summer I have a more remote area to beach the plane in mind. As soon
as I am sure there are no little kids around the two camps close to the
beach I'll pull the plane up there and carry my fuel in to the plane with an
ATV. Any time I'm expecting bad weather the plane will go back to the
garage.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kitfoxmike
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:34 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Door Locks?
>
>
> <customtrans@qwest.net>
>
> The kitfox is not a bank vault. But, the thing I hate most
> is when people get snoopy, or just want to see the
> experimental out front. Usually they want to sit inside and
> play with the controls, of course without you knowing.
> Having some sort of lock on the door takes care of this.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> model IV, 1200
> speedster
> 912ul
> Do not archive
Message 7
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At 07:04 AM 3/8/2007, you wrote:
>The kitfox is not a bank vault. But, the thing I hate most is when
>people get snoopy, or just want to see the experimental out
>front. Usually they want to sit inside and play with the controls,
>of course without you knowing. Having some sort of lock on the door
>takes care of this.
In that case Murle Williams' door latches will work. His require an
Allen wrench to open from the outside. I used a modified version of
his design and am quite happy with it.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 8
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I've had more problems with other pilots, generaly the ones with the certified
airplanes, the older folks that can't fly anymore... the list goes on.
I really like to be at an airshow where there are kids and I'm there with the plane,
I like putting the kids in the plane and watch their eyes light up. The
fox fits the kids much better than one of those spam cans.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99456#99456
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electric Attitude |
My falcon guage electic gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so
after purchase.
They really put the shaft to me when requesting service to their product
so i refuse to do business with them again or pay the money for inferior
product.
So I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
alternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.
I hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the peace
of mind of having one just in case could save lives.
Any good alternatives you builders have found?
I do not have vaccuum installed so must be electric.
Jared
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Attitude |
Those Chinese produced AHs are famous for playing dead and nobody wants to
work on them. R$C Allen isn't much better and costs a fortune to have it
serviced.
Jared, I installed the TruTrak ADI electronic artificial horizon. It uses
no gyros and works fine for me. It also has a track info that is interfaced
with my Garmin 196 that, in my opinion, is better than a compass. I believe
the warranty is 5 years, but it's been awhile. Will fit in the same hole as
your Falcon. Good value for the money.
Deke
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "jareds" <jareds@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Attitude
>
> My falcon guage electic gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so
> after purchase.
> They really put the shaft to me when requesting service to their product
> so i refuse to do business with them again or pay the money for inferior
> product.
>
> So I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
> alternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.
> I hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the peace
> of mind of having one just in case could save lives.
>
> Any good alternatives you builders have found?
> I do not have vaccuum installed so must be electric.
>
> Jared
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Electric Attitude |
> From: fox5flyer [fox5flyer@idealwifi.net]
> Jared, I installed the TruTrak ADI electronic artificial horizon.
I have the TruTrak turn coordinator and I am VERY pleased with it. Not only with
the instrument but their services. Once I did the mistake of starting the engine
when the instrument was already on. Because of the voltage fall, the instrument
went behaving erratically. I thought something was wrong and I wrote to
TruTrak asking how to proceed. They answered at once that I could send them the
instrument and that they will fix it free of charge (it was only one year old).
Next time on the airfield, I realized my blunder and this time the instrument
was working perfectly. I wrote to them that it was my wrong doing, nothing
wrong with the instrument.
Still, it's nice to see friendly customer support when one lives in a tiny country
on the corner of a continent, far far up north.
Cheers,
Michel
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 12
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This subject comes up every few years on this list. A few years back,
the simplest solution proposed was to drill a hole through the bottom of
both door frames and put an aluminum rod through the door frames across
the cockpit with a lock on one end. It can be done with almost no
visible change to the aircraft except for the 2 small holes. It can be a
small lock, because as someone said you don't need a big lock because
you won't prevent a determined intruder anyway, but might deter some
idiot who just wants to sit inside and play with your knobs.
Clem
Lawton, OK
KF-IV, 912
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy
Buchanan
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Door Locks?
At 07:04 AM 3/8/2007, you wrote:
>The kitfox is not a bank vault. But, the thing I hate most is when
>people get snoopy, or just want to see the experimental out front.
>Usually they want to sit inside and play with the controls, of course
>without you knowing. Having some sort of lock on the door takes care
>of this.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Attitude |
Deke,
Best option i have found so far if i read their website right but I'm
still hesitant about spending so much money.
I thought they priced it at about $1000. I sent them an email anyway to
see if they might give us builders and EAA special.
Will see what they say.
Thanks for the tip!
fox5flyer wrote:
>
>Those Chinese produced AHs are famous for playing dead and nobody wants to
>work on them. R$C Allen isn't much better and costs a fortune to have it
>serviced.
>Jared, I installed the TruTrak ADI electronic artificial horizon. It uses
>no gyros and works fine for me. It also has a track info that is interfaced
>with my Garmin 196 that, in my opinion, is better than a compass. I believe
>the warranty is 5 years, but it's been awhile. Will fit in the same hole as
>your Falcon. Good value for the money.
>Deke
>http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "jareds" <jareds@verizon.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:03 PM
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Attitude
>
>
>
>
>>
>>My falcon guage electic gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so
>>after purchase.
>>They really put the shaft to me when requesting service to their product
>>so i refuse to do business with them again or pay the money for inferior
>>product.
>>
>>So I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
>>alternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.
>>I hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the peace
>>of mind of having one just in case could save lives.
>>
>>Any good alternatives you builders have found?
>>I do not have vaccuum installed so must be electric.
>>
>>Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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I agree....The operative words here are, "I'm there with the plane".
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kitfoxmike
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:09 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Door Locks?
>
>
> <customtrans@qwest.net>
>
> I've had more problems with other pilots, generaly the ones
> with the certified airplanes, the older folks that can't fly
> anymore... the list goes on.
>
> I really like to be at an airshow where there are kids and
> I'm there with the plane, I like putting the kids in the
> plane and watch their eyes light up. The fox fits the kids
> much better than one of those spam cans.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> model IV, 1200
> speedster
> 912ul
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99456#99456
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Dean.
Hope this might eliminate some possible sources.
Here is a short list of possible, and known causes for interior smells. Not sure
about particular engine connections other then the use of cabin heat will sometimes
intensify a normally faint order.
Dead critters such as mice,baby birds, mice bedding ,droppings. old birdnest(s),
droppings
Sanitation after the fact. History of missing. improper use of, or defective
airsickness bags (even Yeager got sick...)
mold on organic materials.(seat coverings. etc. Cotten and Linen airframe covering
had a lot of this.
Dry rot onin improperly protected or untreated wood parts.
Wet damp insulation behind kick panels,and headliners.
If Not Poly-Fiber, possible residual covering solvent smells.leaching out.
( the dope stinks)
Try Free-Breezee (spelling?) spray freshener. Works with cigar and pet smell
on most materials.
A auto paint and bump man I know claims car dealers like to hide clothes dryer
fabrics oftener sheets in a used older car to present that new car smell.
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99505#99505
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox website FAQ |
Hey, Steve, Aren't you flying yet? It seems that if we agreed with you it
wouldn't mean a hill of beans to your insureance carrier or the FAA. Or
that we disagree with you is of no interest to them either. Can't remember
a time where any government agency or insurance company for that matter put
it to a vote before making a determination on anything.
If you are absolutely convinced you are right, just go flying. I doubt
anyone else really cares what you do in your own airplane - but just don't
fly over my house, OK?
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "84KF" <stevebenesh@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 4:12 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox website FAQ
>
> Mr, West,
> Tell me, or show me , where or when my Series 5 was ever certified with
> a" FAA official" gross weight. Nothing in operating limitations, AW cert
> data plate or current W&B. There is record, in the entire aircraft
> history, from application for AW cert through compliance with phase 1 and
> beyond, nor is it necessary under MY ops limits or FAA regs to even
> mention it or declare one.
> My local FAA FSDO has reviewed it all and declared every thing in proper
> order.
> It's a dog-gone Experimental-amateur built, with the proper and legal
> paperwork, and meets the definition in FAR 1.1 with the exception of a
> "certified gross weight" ....which it does not have, and is not required.
> That leaves the official FAA definition of "maximum takeoff weight" as
> published in the FAADOT Final Rule which states the restriction to remain
> at or below 1320lbs at time of take-off. How strong it was built , eg.
> it's design limit of 1500LBS, has nothing to to with the mass of the
> aircraft at take-off. And that is the key to the riddle. It's stated in
> the final rule that it is mass, and only mass that that is of concern. Not
> silly paperwork.
> Read it for yourself. I don't expect you to believe me.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98946#98946
>
>
>
Message 17
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Nick,
I used a couple of pieces of SS cable with swaged loops on the ends that
can fit through the holes on the outside door handles and passes under the
fuse. I put some heat shrink on critical areas to prevent scuffing the
fabric and lock it with a hasp lock. As someone else suggested, it will
keep the relatively honest out, but nothing, I guess will keep the real bad
guy out.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Scholtes" <Nick@Scholtes1.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Door Locks?
>
> All,
>
> I envision taking my 'Fox to places where I want to leave it sit on the
> ramp unattended for a while. Is a locking mechanism for the KitFox IV
> doors already invented? Does someone have plans, or is there an
> aftermarket device? I've studied it, and don't want to re-invent the
> wheel if I don't have to.
>
> Best,
>
> Nick
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Attitude |
Jared,
My Falcon Turn Coordinator went south twice the first year. I called and
asked if it was even worth fixing a second time. The nice lady on the phone
told me to take it apart and clean and polish the commutator with crocus
cloth. Did that about four years ago and perfect ever since. Give it a try
before you trash it and spend more money.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "jareds" <jareds@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:03 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Attitude
>
> My falcon guage electic gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so
> after purchase.
> They really put the shaft to me when requesting service to their product
> so i refuse to do business with them again or pay the money for inferior
> product.
>
> So I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
> alternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.
> I hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the peace of
> mind of having one just in case could save lives.
>
> Any good alternatives you builders have found?
> I do not have vaccuum installed so must be electric.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Attitude |
This was one of their new fangled attitutude gyros... and curiousity got
the cat so i opened up mine after they told me it would cost as much to
fix as a new one. What i didnt realize was that they are VACUUM SEALED
.........haaaa
That big pufff of air wasn't a sigh of relief!!
Actually from what i coudl tell the magnetic motor in mine died but
still sad that they wouldnt fix it.
THanks Lowell... wisehed it had been that easy but now it's just a
mantle piece!!
Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
> Jared,
>
> My Falcon Turn Coordinator went south twice the first year. I called
> and asked if it was even worth fixing a second time. The nice lady on
> the phone told me to take it apart and clean and polish the commutator
> with crocus cloth. Did that about four years ago and perfect ever
> since. Give it a try before you trash it and spend more money.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jareds" <jareds@verizon.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:03 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Attitude
>
>
>>
>> My falcon guage electic gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so
>> after purchase.
>> They really put the shaft to me when requesting service to their
>> product so i refuse to do business with them again or pay the money
>> for inferior product.
>>
>> So I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
>> alternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.
>> I hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the
>> peace of mind of having one just in case could save lives.
>>
>> Any good alternatives you builders have found?
>> I do not have vaccuum installed so must be electric.
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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Bill,
I like your setup, I had the same in my IV less the bungy and the lock.
One thing I added to mine was another latching leg alongside the one you
have that goes down along the inside of the fuselage holding the door
closed. It was positioned farther in towards the seat to allow the
original one to go on the outside of the fuselage and the new one on the
inside, this would hold the door about a half inch open for those hot
days that you wanted to get a little breeze but something that would not
blow everything around the cockpit.
Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: wwillyard@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door Locks?
Nick, I installed locks in both my doors using cam-lock mechanisms
purchased from a lock shop. I had them keyed the same for simplicity. By
attaching a small piece of aluminum to the inside handle of the door
latch, the cam-lock can be used to secure the door without hindering
normal door operation when in flight. See attached photo.
Also here is a link that will show some of the many cam-lock options
available.
http://www.monroeengineering.com/locks/Cam-Lock/index.htm
Bill W.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick@Scholtes1.com
> Is a locking mechanism for the KitFox IV doors already invented?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message 21
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Thanks Lloyd, I may give that a try.
Bill W.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: 7suds@Chartermi.net
Sent: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door Locks?
Bill,
I like your setup, I had the same in my IV less the bungy and the lock. One thing
I added to mine was another latching leg alongside the one you have that goes
down along the inside of the fuselage holding the door closed. It was positioned
farther in towards the seat to allow the original one to go on the outside
of the fuselage and the new one on the inside, this would hold the door about
a half inch open for those hot days that you wanted to get a little breeze
but something that would not blow everything around the cockpit.
Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: wwillyard@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Door Locks?
Nick, I installed locks in both my doors using cam-lock mechanisms purchased from
a lock shop. I had them keyed the same for simplicity. By attaching a small
piece of aluminum to the inside handle of the door latch, the cam-lock can be
used to secure the door without hindering normal door operation when in flight.
See attached photo.
Also here is a link that will show some of the many cam-lock options available.
http://www.monroeengineering.com/locks/Cam-Lock/index.htm
Bill W.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick@Scholtes1.com
> Is a locking mechanism for the KitFox IV doors already invented?
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Attitude |
Dynon makes an electronic Attitude indicator. Known to be reliable.=0A=0AJ
im Shumaker=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: jareds <jareds@veri
zon.net>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 9:
03:21 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Electric Attitude=0A=0A=0A--> Kitfox-List
message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>=0A=0AMy falcon guage electic
gyro brand new bit the dust only a year or so =0Aafter purchase.=0AThey re
ally put the shaft to me when requesting service to their product =0Aso i r
efuse to do business with them again or pay the money for inferior =0Aprodu
ct.=0A=0ASo I am hoping some of you ingenious listers have found some good
=0Aalternatives that are inexpensive to have an electric attitude gyro.=0AI
hope i never have to rely on it like i have in the past but the peace =0Ao
f mind of having one just in case could save lives.=0A=0AAny good alternati
ves you builders have found?=0AI do not have vaccuum installed so must be e
======
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