---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/16/07: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:18 AM - Re: Another Kitfox flies! (avtar412) 2. 01:15 AM - Re: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (Michel Verheughe) 3. 02:27 AM - Re: wingtip crack- class glass products - floats (D. Fisher) 4. 03:34 AM - Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (Bob) 5. 04:29 AM - Re: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (Michel Verheughe) 6. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (fox5flyer) 7. 06:11 AM - Re: Ram Engines Experience? (Michael Logan) 8. 08:37 AM - 912ULS heavy duty starter ? (alnanarthur) 9. 09:05 AM - Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (n85ae) 10. 09:29 AM - Turtledeck Flutter (n85ae) 11. 09:34 AM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (84KF) 12. 09:36 AM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (n85ae) 13. 10:01 AM - Re: Turtledeck Flutter (fox5flyer) 14. 10:02 AM - Re: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? (Clint Bazzill) 15. 10:45 AM - Re: Turtledeck Flutter (n85ae) 16. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (Marco Menezes) 17. 12:27 PM - Re: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? (Randy Daughenbaugh) 18. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Turtledeck Flutter (fox5flyer) 19. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Another Kitfox flies! (Lynn Matteson) 20. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (Noel Loveys) 21. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: wingtip crack- class glass products - floats (Noel Loveys) 22. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (Glenn Horne) 23. 03:01 PM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (vft@aol.com) 24. 04:05 PM - want kitfox (DEAN TINAGLIA) 25. 04:21 PM - Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > (akflyer) 26. 04:57 PM - Re: AD's question for airworthy cert (dcsfoto) 27. 06:08 PM - Weight & Balance issues () 28. 06:45 PM - Re: AD's question for airworthy cert (pilotpat) 29. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert (Clem Nichols) 30. 07:09 PM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (n85ae) 31. 07:41 PM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (Noel Loveys) 32. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (Jim Crowder) 33. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (Noel Loveys) 34. 08:51 PM - Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum (84KF) 35. 09:44 PM - Re: AD's question for airworthy cert (84KF) 36. 10:12 PM - Off topic Garbled e-mail from 84KF (me) (84KF) 37. 11:50 PM - Re: Off topic Garbled e-mail from 84KF (me) (Jim Crowder) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:36 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Another Kitfox flies! From: "avtar412" :D Kerry, congratulations to Johann and your self. Having done the same just 1 year back I know the wonderful feeling you must have, well done. John A. New Zealand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100946#100946 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:48 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > From: john perry [eskflyer@lvcisp.com] > If you have a problem with someone who cannot glass that is one thing but to > insinuate that someone who builds boats does not know what they are doing > is not very nice. Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, while being constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? :-) Michel do not archive
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:49 AM PST US From: "D. Fisher" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack- class glass products - floats >>Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, while being >>constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? > > Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? << You glass guys have most likely run into a set of these floats, very popular with the SuperCub guys. Well a little big for Kitfox but these are my neighbour's product and becoming very popular. http://www.clamarfloats.com It has been very popular so far and now a 3500 will be dressing up the Murphy Mooses this year. Look for him as Sun n Fun if you are going. After seeing the results,I would say that these have proven to be one of the toughest floats on the market now. I flew in there on Monday this week with 16 inches now - now it about 95% gone. And before you ask , he wil not be making anything under 2200s unless you are willing to pay 25k for striaght floats. Personally I think there is market for a 1400 to 1600 float for LSA stuff and there are some new ones to surface in the next year or so. That being said the Aerocet 1100s a decent float but could affoard to be a little bigger displacement on the heavier Kitfoxes. What would you pay for a set of floats ? 1400s straight or amphib ? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 4:15 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > >> From: john perry [eskflyer@lvcisp.com] >> If you have a problem with someone who cannot glass that is one thing but >> to >> insinuate that someone who builds boats does not know what they are doing >> is not very nice. > > Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, while being > constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? > > Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? > > > :-) Michel > > do not archive > > > 

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________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:16 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > From: "Bob" Whew, touchy bunch and methinks my answer was misconstrued a bit here. :) No offense meant or taken, but my exact words were "...preferabley from somebody who knows the difference between..." because there is a frequently a difference. Hey, if you're comfortable working both, so much the better. For those who don't know what this means, airplane work uses a lot less resin, is more limited in types of resins to be used, typically uses more plies, of much finer weaves, with strict ply control. I wasn't even referring to vacuum bagging or autoclaves. Some marine/boat applications are identical, especially in the high performance sailboats. If you want to see a boat application with really high quality control, check out the mast or spar construction for some of the racers! The fabric and resin control in some of the offshore racers and racing motorcycle parts is fantastic! However, there are a lot of people who do NOT know the difference. They'll get whatever resin from Home Depot, have no idea about the cloth they buy or use some old automotive cloth that was kept behind an oil furnace (oil can keep resin from wetting the cloth), slop it on with a big old paintbrush of any type, then fill it smooth with nice heavy automotive Bondo, and paint to match. I can think of at least two homebuilts that had in-flight failures from this kind of construction and have talked to FAA inspectors who see a lot of really heavy composite homebuilts. I grew up on Atwood Lake in Ohio and worked QC for several years in a CT composites shop where our main products were rotorblades and other aircraft parts, so I have some idea of both ends of the spectrum. Sorry if I offended, but I loved the wit, too! Bob -------- Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100953#100953 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:36 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > From: Bob [dswaim1119@comcast.net] > However, there are a lot of people who do NOT know the difference. Of course, Bob! (Did you note the smiley at the end of my email?) The key word here is; certification. If you have an aircraft or a boat that is certified, it will be built according to some strict rules. If you have a boat that is certified by e.g. Lloyds or DNV, you can be assured that it was not built with just anything; the life of a seafarer is as important as the life of an airman. This being said, I am not sure you are right with the amount of resin used for both application. When it comes to polyester resin and glassfiber, certification authorities agree that the percentage of weight should be 70-30 with 70% of glassfiber. That is what they have tested to give the best strenght-weight ratio, I think. One main difference must certainly be the weight, which is not so important for seagoing craft. For an aircraft, strong but costly carbon fiber is certainly the way to go if you can afford it. Kevlar is also a beautiful product. But there are other improving techniques like my 27 feet sailboat that was built in polyester and glassfiber but without catalyser. The hull is then put in an "oven" and "baked" at 85 degrees C for 48 hours. The strenght is then supposed to be 120% that of the catalyser technique. Of course, very few yards can afford such an "oven" room. Cheers, Michel do not archive
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:56 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > DO NOT ARCHIVE !!! Need I say more? Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "john perry" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > > UHHH i dunno what ya talkin about that 3 inch whatever you said thingy is > actually a shotgun blast from the last time we went snipe hunting and tilt > is to the right you were facing backwards fring out the door when you got > the tip . and all that weight is from the duct tape and gorilla glue with > the bluejean patch on top . dang cant you remember anything after burning a > few . > > Cant hardly wait to get back home and fly with ya bro > Fly safe fly low fly slow > John Perry > Kitfox 2 N718PD > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "akflyer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:44 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > > > > > > now I know why your bird flys with the left wing down all the > > time....musta got a bit too much glass on that side.. I told you that a > > full gallon of resin was not necessary for a lil ole 3" " linear > > indication" (I hate the "c" word)..... > > > > Didn't Dad teach you the difference between roving, mat and cloth and the > > appropriate times to use each... I swear us boat guys must be stupid or > > something...maybe from huffing too much acetone...I guess we better seek > > profesional help next time we need to fix something as elementary as > > fibergalss..... > > > > -------- > > Leni > > Avid C W/582 > > 1260 full lotus > > > > .......DO NOT ARCHIVE..... > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:11 AM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ram Engines Experience? I have experience with RAM engines and it has been nothing but good. I saw the email from someone (I deleted it) that said he would not go to Ron again because of bad quality control. At least he makes good on all the problems that might come up. When you first start up and get swamped by work, like we have put on Ron, you have to expand and it takes time to get all the employees up to speed with quality. At least Ron owns up to his mistakes and fixes them. I remember Lance at NSI saying every time I called with a problem that it had never happened before, but he had a fix for it right then (very strange). Of course you had to pay full price for the fix and there were lots of others that had the same problem. Lance did not know Subaru engines very well and his QC on the engine itself was terrible. Ron KNOWS Subaru engines and is always striving to improve on them. He knows what can be improved and what can't. He is also very willing to help out with any problems you might have, whether you got your engine from him or not. Mike Logan S5 formerly NSI SHO (boat anchor) now RAM (stump puller) -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:15 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Ram Engines Experience? Does anyone have experience with the Ram Engines 140hp EA81 Subaru? I am contemplating this engine for my Series 7 and would like to hear the good and the bad about it as it would pertain to a series 5, 6 or 7. I have read plenty about the NSI engines and people seem to either like them or hate them but I understand this is a completely different setup from the NSI. Ram actually reworks there engines completely and engineers them for aircraft use (that is what is said on the website anyway). I would likely be sticking a IFA prop on the end like the Airmasters or the IVO. Any info would be great on this particular setup and actual performance numbers would be even better. Thanks guys (and gals if there are any), Darin H. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100807#100807 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:53 AM PST US From: alnanarthur Subject: Kitfox-List: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? List, I have a Kitfox 5 with an early 912ULS engine which does not have the heavy duty starter. Can anyone tell me the dimensions of the heavy duty starter. I have only about 1/2 in. clearance between the back of my present starter and one of the engine mount tubes. Allan Arthur Kitfox 5, N40AA Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:14 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: "n85ae" Just to stir up the corrosion pot again. For what it's worth. I screwed some bare aluminum pieces (6061) to the back fence about 6 years ago as a sanity check when building my plane. Through sun and dark, acid rain, sleet, hail, you name it. There's no sign of any corrosion whatsoever ... I live in Chicago, so we do have bad weather. The only corrosion on my Kitfox has been a tiny bit on the landing gear plates, and the engine mount where some powder coat got chipped off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101021#101021 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:00 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtledeck Flutter From: "n85ae" Anybody out there tried turbulating the airflow upstream of the turtledeck to see if turtledeck flutter can be reduced? Vortex generators, etc? Deke, you mentioned to me once it was an experiment you had in mind for future trial. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101027#101027 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: "84KF" Jeff, Through sun and dark, acid rain, sleet, hail, you name it.... I live in Chicago, so we do have bad weather. And then that stuff blows east across the big lake towards me and Lynn. Now we know who to blame.... Steve :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101030#101030 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:55 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: "n85ae" I only accept responsibility for the hail ... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101032#101032 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:15 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtledeck Flutter I'm not sure who I'm talking to, but thanks for reminding me of it. Events over the winter kept me from doing it, but I still intend to try it. Yes, I was planning on VGs on top of the windshield somewhere, possibly about 6 inches back from where it makes the bend around the front carry through. Hopefully I can get to it this summer. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:28 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtledeck Flutter > > Anybody out there tried turbulating the airflow upstream of the turtledeck > to see if turtledeck flutter can be reduced? > > Vortex generators, etc? > > Deke, you mentioned to me once it was an experiment you had in mind > for future trial. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:03 AM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? The only thing that the heavy duty starter does is turn the engine faster. If you have a good starting procedure its a waste of money. Clint Half Moon Bay From: alnanarthur Subject: Kitfox-List: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? List, I have a Kitfox 5 with an early 912ULS engine which does not have the heavy duty starter. Can anyone tell me the dimensions of the heavy duty starter. I have only about 1/2 in. clearance between the back of my present starter and one of the engine mount tubes. Allan Arthur Kitfox 5, N40AA Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8 _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:46 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Turtledeck Flutter From: "n85ae" Hi Deke - If you do test it out, post the results. Regards, Jeff hays Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101057#101057 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:41 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum What about that brown snow that fell on Northern Michigan in great abundance a few weeks ago? I've heard the brown was contributed by Chicago. do not archive n85ae wrote: I only accept responsibility for the hail ... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101032#101032 Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:48 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? Allan, I had to modify (Actually Skystar did it for me!) my motor mount in order to use the heavy duty starter. I suspect that you will need the modification. In the absence of other problems, I think you should consider Clint's advice. Randy Series 5/7 912S . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of alnanarthur Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:38 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912ULS heavy duty starter ? List, I have a Kitfox 5 with an early 912ULS engine which does not have the heavy duty starter. Can anyone tell me the dimensions of the heavy duty starter. I have only about 1/2 in. clearance between the back of my present starter and one of the engine mount tubes. Allan Arthur Kitfox 5, N40AA Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:41 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Turtledeck Flutter Will do Jeff. Deke do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Turtledeck Flutter > > Hi Deke - > > If you do test it out, post the results. > > Regards, > Jeff hays > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101057#101057 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:22 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Another Kitfox flies! Congrats! Mine also flew for the first time a year ago...what a great year it's been. Lynn do not archive On Mar 16, 2007, at 3:17 AM, avtar412 wrote: > > > :D Kerry, congratulations to Johann and your self. Having done the > same just 1 year back I know the wonderful feeling you must have, > well done. John A. New Zealand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100946#100946 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:33 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > The process you described for aircraft will produce a part with extremely high strength.... But ( here we go again) BUT it permeable to water. Not to the point where it will flow like a Tetley teabag but bad enough that after filling with water it can delaminate if allowed to freeze. Boat construction as you said uses a lot more resin. This also gives a good strong product but is much heavier and of course is impermeable to water. Boats will often have wrinkles and things in their design to make them more rigid... Planes need the same thing but all the stiffeners need to be inside out of the airflow. Most people who use fibre glass know what is required to do either type of work. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:04 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > > > > Whew, touchy bunch and methinks my answer was misconstrued a > bit here. :) > No offense meant or taken, but my exact words were > "...preferabley from somebody who knows the difference > between..." because there is a frequently a difference. Hey, > if you're comfortable working both, so much the better. > > For those who don't know what this means, airplane work uses > a lot less resin, is more limited in types of resins to be > used, typically uses more plies, of much finer weaves, with > strict ply control. I wasn't even referring to vacuum > bagging or autoclaves. Some marine/boat applications are > identical, especially in the high performance sailboats. If > you want to see a boat application with really high quality > control, check out the mast or spar construction for some of > the racers! The fabric and resin control in some of the > offshore racers and racing motorcycle parts is fantastic! > > However, there are a lot of people who do NOT know the > difference. They'll get whatever resin from Home Depot, have > no idea about the cloth they buy or use some old automotive > cloth that was kept behind an oil furnace (oil can keep resin > from wetting the cloth), slop it on with a big old paintbrush > of any type, then fill it smooth with nice heavy automotive > Bondo, and paint to match. I can think of at least two > homebuilts that had in-flight failures from this kind of > construction and have talked to FAA inspectors who see a lot > of really heavy composite homebuilts. > > I grew up on Atwood Lake in Ohio and worked QC for several > years in a CT composites shop where our main products were > rotorblades and other aircraft parts, so I have some idea of > both ends of the spectrum. Sorry if I offended, but I loved > the wit, too! > > Bob > > -------- > Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100953#100953 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:35 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack- class glass products - floats Definitely a market there... Not for my 'Fox ...MTOW 950 Lb. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D. Fisher > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:57 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack- class glass products - floats > > > > > >>Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, > while being > >>constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? > > > > Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? > << > > You glass guys have most likely run into a set of these floats, very > popular with the SuperCub guys. > Well a little big for Kitfox but these are my neighbour's > product and > becoming very popular. > > http://www.clamarfloats.com > > It has been very popular so far and now a 3500 will be > dressing up the > Murphy Mooses this year. Look for him as Sun n Fun if you are going. > After seeing the results,I would say that these have proven > to be one of the > toughest floats on the market now. > > I flew in there on Monday this week with 16 inches now - now > it about 95% > gone. > > And before you ask , he wil not be making anything under > 2200s unless you > are willing to pay 25k for striaght floats. Personally I > think there is > market for a 1400 to 1600 float for LSA stuff and there are > some new ones to > surface in the next year or so. > That being said the Aerocet 1100s a decent float but could > affoard to be a > little bigger displacement on the heavier Kitfoxes. > > What would you pay for a set of floats ? > 1400s straight or amphib ? > > Dave > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Verheughe" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 4:15 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > > > > >> From: john perry [eskflyer@lvcisp.com] > >> If you have a problem with someone who cannot glass that > is one thing but > >> to > >> insinuate that someone who builds boats does not know what > they are doing > >> is not very nice. > > > > Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, > while being > > constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? > > > > Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? > > > > > > :-) Michel > > > > do not archive > > > > > > 

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> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:31 PM PST US From: "Glenn Horne" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > John, I think he was saying that there was two ways of doing the glass work. One for boats and one for aircraft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 4:15 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > >> From: john perry [eskflyer@lvcisp.com] >> If you have a problem with someone who cannot glass that is one thing but >> to >> insinuate that someone who builds boats does not know what they are doing >> is not very nice. > > Question: What is exposed to sun, rain and gale winds 24/7, while being > constantly flexed by corrosive salty water masses? > > Is it a bird? ... is it a plane? ... could it be a boat? > > > :-) Michel > > do not archive > > > 

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________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: vft@aol.com Please excuse the intrusion of a metal basher on the list:) but Hey! this is a subject I know a bit about especially as my current project is practically all aluminum:) Basically, whether or not to do any corrosion proofing depends on where you live and fly. For the most part unless you operate near salt water just keeping things nice and clean will protect things very well. Just a small amount of salt in the air can change that dramatically. When we built N24ZM we lived approx 15 miles from the ocean. and the airport it was based at was around 8 miles inland. Most of our flying was inland as well and we never had a corrosion issue. That changed when we moved up to MLB which is maybe 2 miles inland. We also tended to fly low up and down the coast a lot. The result was that corrosion would creep in anywhere the paint was scratched, nicked, or where the metal was left unprotected. On the F1 everything gets etched, alodined, and primed with a fluid resistant epoxy primer prior to paint. Danny Melnik F1 #25 Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory -----Original Message----- From: n85ae@yahoo.com Sent: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum Just to stir up the corrosion pot again. For what it's worth. I screwed some bare aluminum pieces (6061) to the back fence about 6 years ago as a sanity check when building my plane. Through sun and dark, acid rain, sleet, hail, you name it. There's no sign of any corrosion whatsoever ... I live in Chicago, so we do have bad weather. The only corrosion on my Kitfox has been a tiny bit on the landing gear plates, and the engine mount where some powder coat got chipped off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101021#101021 ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:54 PM PST US From: "DEAN TINAGLIA" Subject: Kitfox-List: want kitfox Hey.....Anyone know of a kitfox for sale with 100hp Rotax engine, prefer tri-gear series 5, however would consider taildrager, if loaded, ie radios, lights, full panel, etc..must also meet sport license, ...as 1320 gw. speeds, and no cabin control of prop since new, plus well built, a pure machine....have cash...thanks call 605 745 4449 or e mail ann7ddt@aol.com Dean Tinaglia ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:19 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wingtip crack< FOR BOB > From: "akflyer" yeah john... and dont you try to confuse the issue with comments about "burning one" you will start a whole new war.... I catagorically deny having any involvment in your above mentioned activities. DO NOT ACHIVE enough said -------- Leni Avid C W/582 1260 full lotus .......DO NOT ARCHIVE..... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101120#101120 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert From: "dcsfoto" First the AD Biweekly changes every two weeks. Yes ADs do not apply to our type aircraft but the FAA wants that block filled in on the Form 8130-6. will look like "2007-06" S-SLA must be built from a kit, that the mfg has built and certified at least one aircraft. E-LSA is called the "wild west" it is what the "fat" ultralights that are not 51% built are using. S-SLA have 2" LIGHT SPORT placards. E-LSA has 2" EXPERIMENTAL placards that is the easy way to tell diferance. Go E-LSA if you did not build the and want to get a repairmans certificate all you need to do is go to a short ( 2 or 3 weeks ) school and get a E-LSA repairmans cert. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101128#101128 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:23 PM PST US From: Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight & Balance issues Is anyone out there with a tri-gear willing to share the recorded weights of their three wheels? Two main gear weights and the nosegear weight. Your assistance in sharing these weights would help me assess the viability of my current "rough" setup. I just need a frame of reference for GENERAL weight adjustment. Not planning on using the info for final weight and balance issues! Would certainly appeciate anyone's help. I also think this would be very useful info for anyone building a trigear. Does anyone have this kind of info on file? If so, please indicate which model/series you own. It would be helpful to me because I have major weight/balance issues caused by addition of Corvair engine/BRS chute/special manifold mods/etc. John Sandt Series 7 Sport / Corvair / BRS / Tri-gear / under construction ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert From: "pilotpat" Again, can't say it enought, What a great site this is and thanks to you guys for your input. That is exactly what I needed, so I could fill in the block. It was more my misunderstanding than anything else , as I just thought I didnt need to enter that info, but the DAR explained to me what it was and along with you guys giving me the site location, I was able to find it and go thru things. Learning lots, mostly from my mistakes and you all bailing me out...Was use to just flying the cherokee and Cessna till my friend got me into this kitfox flying.. so here I am, probably will have a new quest for you soon. as I need to write a flight plan. any ideas....later -------- Pilotpat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101142#101142 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:30 PM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert Re: ELSA repairman's certificate All you need to get the repairman's certificate (which enables you to do the annual inspection on your own ELSA plane) is to successfully complete the 16 hour course. The 2 or 3 week course enables you to inspect and work on your SLSA plane. As I understand it, anyone, certificate or not, can work on any experimental plane. Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "dcsfoto" Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert > > First the AD Biweekly changes every two weeks. Yes ADs do not apply to our > type aircraft but the FAA wants that block filled in on the Form 8130-6. > will look like "2007-06" > S-SLA must be built from a kit, that the mfg has built and certified at > least one aircraft. > E-LSA is called the "wild west" it is what the "fat" ultralights that are > not 51% > built are using. > S-SLA have 2" LIGHT SPORT placards. > E-LSA has 2" EXPERIMENTAL placards that is the easy way to tell diferance. > Go E-LSA if you did not build the and want to get a repairmans > certificate > all you need to do is go to a short ( 2 or 3 weeks ) school and get a > E-LSA repairmans cert. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101128#101128 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: "n85ae" But more importantly Danny, did Skystar pay you guys for your comments on the sales video :) I still get pissed every time my Kitfox doesn't go up at 2000 fpm, and I couldn't build my plane with just a hammer an pliers either :) Regards, Jeff Hays Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101147#101147 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:07 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum To cause corrosion you need an electrolyte... Salt water sounds pretty good to me. Fresh water is not an electrolyte and can even "wash" salt off a plane. I know one old bush pilot who used to regularly land his 4130 framed Super Cub in the brine. I asked him how come it didn't rust to bits. He told me after landing in salt water he would always fly through a few clouds (VFR??) on his way to home base. He said the fresh water of the cloud would wash the salt from his plane. Being a relatively new pilot I have decided not to plant my 'Fox into any salt water but it is stored in a garage about 30' from the North Atlantic, a considerable source of salt. Yes I love to fly low and slow at about 10' off the swells, keep an eye out for the big one! I always land in fresh water and not too often do I fly in rough weather so my plane is about as salt free as can be expected in this location. I do have a bit of a question about the aluminium on the fence.... Is the steel part of the fence rusted where it came in contact with the aluminium? Also remember aluminium forms a thin protective layer of oxide over itself in short order. Unless there is an abundance of electrolyte (salt) around I'm not too surprised that it hasn't corroded to bits. One of these days I'll have to try the funny round rubber things that came with the plane or maybe the boards. (skis) Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vft@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum Please excuse the intrusion of a metal basher on the list:) but Hey! this is a subject I know a bit about especially as my current project is practically all aluminum:) Basically, whether or not to do any corrosion proofing depends on where you live and fly. For the most part unless you operate near salt water just keeping things nice and clean will protect things very well. Just a small amount of salt in the air can change that dramatically. When we built N24ZM we lived approx 15 miles from the ocean. and the airport it was based at was around 8 miles inland. Most of our flying was inland as well and we never had a corrosion issue. That changed when we moved up to MLB which is maybe 2 miles inland. We also tended to fly low up and down the coast a lot. The result was that corrosion would creep in anywhere the paint was scratched, nicked, or where the metal was left unprotected. On the F1 everything gets etched, alodined, and primed with a fluid resistant epoxy primer prior to paint. Danny Melnik F1 #25 Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory -----Original Message----- From: n85ae@yahoo.com Sent: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum > Just to stir up the corrosion pot again. For what it's worth. I screwed some bare aluminum pieces (6061) to the back fence about 6 years ago as a sanity check when building my plane. Through sun and dark, acid rain, sleet, hail, you name it. There's no sign of any corrosion whatsoever ... I live in Chicago, so we do have bad weather. The only corrosion on my Kitfox has been a tiny bit on the landing gear plates, and the engine mount where some powder coat got chipped off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic. php?p=101021#101021 _____ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:27 PM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum Steve, When I attempt to read your emails, a lot of the characters are gibberish. Other members have also commented on it. At first I was using Eudora as my email client and I blamed that, but now I am using Outlook and still reading your emails is a strain. They are never boring and I do enjoy reading them. Still may I suggest that you set your software to send "Plain Text" when posting List email. I believe that would fix the problem and remove an annoyance to List readers. Since you read your postings with the same software you use to send, they display normally and you are totally unaware of the problem for most, or all of the rest of us. Thanks, Jim Crowder -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of 84KF Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum Jeff, Through sun and dark, acid rain, sleet, hail, you name it.... I live in Chicago, so we do have bad weather. And then that stuff blows east across the big lake towards me and Lynn. Now we know who to blame.... Steve :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101030#101030 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:49 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum Hmmm hammer and pliers, Eh? If the pliers were Vise Grips you could probably build a Harley...but you would need a big hammer :-) Sorry Mssrs. Davidson. See it Do not archive it! Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:39 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum > > > > But more importantly Danny, did Skystar pay you guys for your comments > on the sales video :) > > I still get pissed every time my Kitfox doesn't go up at 2000 > fpm, and I couldn't build my plane with just a hammer an > pliers either :) > > Regards, > Jeff Hays > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101147#101147 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protecting Aluminum From: "84KF" Jim, Sorry... I do realize that my post may show up somewhat "corrupted" when read through misc. e-mail clients. All I can say is when viewed using the actual Kitfox List web site http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=83b6acbe5602af72d6c023eab4688518 all will be right and legible. I sometimes compose using Microsoft works, then cut and paste to the List Message Body window, and this might be a cause of corrupted e-mail. It does not affect the List site viewing. I post right to the site, and forget that others receive through e-mail. While I regret the e-mail corruption, it is not my intention to send e-mail to every viewerreader. IMHO, the List site is the only way to go. Thanks for the input. Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101168#101168 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:05 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert From: "84KF" The following is from ..., well you should know by know... 44794 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations The FAA believes that the maximum take-off weight is an appropriate limiting parameter for lightsport aircraft, because it is an objective measure that can easily be determined when the aircraft configuration is specified. ---------------- 44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations Operating limitations specified in 91.319 for experimental light-sport aircraft certificated under 21.191(i)(3) are more restrictive than the operating limitations issued to special light-sport aircraft. ----------------- 44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations In experimental certificate, the word experimental indicates that there is no known standard for the design or production of the aircraft. Therefore, the FAA believes that experimental certificates are appropriate for kit-built aircraft. 44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations Proposed paragraph (i)(2) addressed operating a light-sport aircraft that was assembled from an eligible kit. Proposed 21.0193(e)(5) stated that the assembler of an aircraft, seeking certification under paragraph (i)(2), had to provide the instructions used to assemble the aircraft. There was no requirement in 21.191(i)(2) that a person had to assemble the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturers assembly instructions. In the final rule, therefore, 21.191(i)(2) now includes the requirement that the aircraft kit be assembled in accordance with the manufacturers assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard. A commenter stated that experimental certificates should not be issued for light-sport aircraft that are not intended for experimental use but are intended to be mass-produced on production line. The commenter said that the FAA should create another status for aircraft whose certification falls between current type-certificated aircraft and true experimental aircraft. The FAA believes that the special light-sport aircraft certificate serves this purpose. In experimental certificate, the word experimental indicates that there is no known standard for the design or production of the aircraft. Therefore, the FAA believes that experimental certificates are appropriate for kit-built aircraft. The same commenter noted that proposed 21.191(i) would allow certification of aircraft carrying persons for compensation or hire that have never been shown to meet any design or production airworthiness standard. The FAA notes that these aircraft will not be permitted to be used for the full range of compensation or hire operations normally carried out by aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates. Operating limitations for these aircraft will restrict their use, as specified in 91.319. The commenter also stated that there is no rigid conformity requirement for kit-built aircraft certificated under this section. The FAA disagrees and notes that an applicant seeking to certificate a kit-built aircraft under 21.191(i)(2) must also comply with 21.193(e) and provide a statement of compliance issued by the aircrafts manufacturer that contains the information generally required by 21.190(c). The commenter was also concerned that an operator of a special light-sport aircraft could decide to obtain an experimental light sport certificate when that operator no longer intends to comply with the more stringent operating limitations of the special light-sport aircraft. The commenter asserts that the operator could still engage in many of the operations permitted for special lightsport aircraft without meeting those more stringent limitations. The FAA disagrees. Operating limitations specified in 91.319 for experimental light-sport aircraft certificated under 21.191(i)(3) are more restrictive than the operating limitations issued steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101172#101172 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Off topic Garbled e-mail from 84KF (me) From: "84KF" I'm sorry that some e-mail clients do not reproduce some postings in the original format as written. If there is a problem with reading postings using e-mail as an elected source, (signed up for it..) then go right to the source... http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=83b6acbe5602af72d6c023eab4688518 The ability to accent and highlight statements is provided here, but when these benefits are used, it does mess up e-mails. I will (again) try to remember that not all use the 'site', but I see using the 'site' as the best source..., as originally intended.. Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101173#101173 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:32 PM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Off topic Garbled e-mail from 84KF (me) Steve, Thanks for thinking of us email reading members. The Kitfox List was an email list years before it was moved to Matronics. I even hosted the list on the now extinct Colorado Super Net for quite a while. I think you would be very surprised to learn how many of us read postings via email. It would be interesting to know. There are reasons for this. The Kitfox list is only a part of my life. I read email from many sources. I even belong to another flying list. I also actively receive email from five addresses currently. My email client is programmed to check each of these every ten minutes when I am at my computer. I do a lot of other work at my computer and often welcome a break when email arrives. I then know very quickly when an email is posted without going to each address. I also have a very effective spam checker that automatically deletes most of the spam I receive even if it comes from a mailing list as often happens. The posting I am replying to came through with no garbage and I for one do appreciate that. I will try to get along with whatever comes my way, but I do appreciate it when it is clean. As a further thought, the three clients I have used are very mainstream and are used on most PCs except for those who use the site provided by their service provider such as AOL. I have no idea if they see the garbage. I suspect the garbage we are speaking of appears on ALL email clients. If not, I stand to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable. I can always go to the Matronics site if I think it is worth the extra trouble. Otherwise I guess that is what the delete key is for. I intend to not beat this horse further and I want to remain a friend. Jim Crowder DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of 84KF Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:12 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Off topic Garbled e-mail from 84KF (me) I'm sorry that some e-mail clients do not reproduce some postings in the original format as written. If there is a problem with reading postings using e-mail as an elected source, (signed up for it..) then go right to the source... http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=83b6acbe5602af72d6c023eab4 688518 The ability to accent and highlight statements is provided here, but when these benefits are used, it does mess up e-mails. I will (again) try to remember that not all use the 'site', but I see using the 'site' as the best source..., as originally intended.. Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101173#101173 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.