Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:19 AM - ELT Requirement (Jose M. Toro)
2. 11:31 AM - Re: ELT Requirement (Don Smythe)
3. 01:07 PM - Flap usage (Nick Scholtes)
4. 03:42 PM - Re: Flap usage (Randy Daughenbaugh)
5. 04:00 PM - 582 Starter Problem (Don Smythe)
6. 04:22 PM - Re: ELT Requirement (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
7. 05:01 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (fox5flyer)
8. 05:22 PM - Re: ELT Requirement (dcsfoto)
9. 05:55 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Dee Young)
10. 05:59 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Don Smythe)
11. 06:21 PM - Re: Flap usage (Dacha)
12. 06:27 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Don Smythe)
13. 06:57 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
14. 07:21 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Dacha)
15. 07:47 PM - Fuel Tank Gas Caps? (kentk)
16. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: ELT Requirement (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
17. 08:25 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Gas Caps? (jdmcbean)
18. 09:19 PM - Re: Flap usage (kurt schrader)
19. 10:22 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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Hi All:=0A=0ADo I need an ELT installed in order to certify a Kitfox under
51% rule?=0A=0AJos=E9=0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________
___________________________________________=0ANo need to miss a message. Ge
t email on-the-go =0Awith Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.=0Ahttp://mob
ile.yahoo.com/mail
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Requirement |
Jos'e
Off the top of my head, I believe an ELT is required for a "two"
seater aircraft. Doesn't have anything to do with the 51% rule.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Jose M. Toro
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: ELT Requirement
Hi All:
Do I need an ELT installed in order to certify a Kitfox under 51%
rule?
Jos=E9
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Message 3
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Hey KitfoxMike,
I've read several of your posts where you recommend not to use flaps,
and I have scratched my head. Now I understand why you recommend to
people to not use flaps.
I chose a KitFox because I have 600' of pasture behind my barn. It's a
pasture that I keep llamas in, so there's a 5' cedar fence on both
ends. To get in there on a calm day with the IV-1200 Speedster, I GOTTA
use flaps, and I bring it over the approach fence at about 40 MIAS,
which is shy of 1.3Vso, and it's gotta' be on the back side of the power
curve. If I don't do that, it'll float too far. It's not the landing
roll thats the issue, it's the float.
Anyway, I guess my point is, the airplane will land shorter with flaps
than without, and it's important to consider what the person's situation
is. If I was flying out of a tower controlled airport (I don't know of
any that have a short runway), I wouldn't "recommend" flaps either, I
mean why bother with them? But for us true short-field-sters, flaps are
a must.
Best,
Nick
Do Not Archive
>Many times I'll be doing 80 over the numbers and land 500 ft
>down the runway.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>model IV, 1200
>speedster
>912ul
>Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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I suspect that the IV is different than the Series 5/6/7, but I really enjoy
the flaps on my 5/7. I have a friend with a 600 foot strip and the flaps
make it a piece of cake. At an airport near here I have fun by landing and
turning off at the first turn. This just blows some people's minds.
I get off the ground much faster with flaps too. I see no reason not to
use them.
Randy.
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick Scholtes
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flap usage
Hey KitfoxMike,
I've read several of your posts where you recommend not to use flaps,
and I have scratched my head. Now I understand why you recommend to
people to not use flaps.
I chose a KitFox because I have 600' of pasture behind my barn. It's a
pasture that I keep llamas in, so there's a 5' cedar fence on both
ends. To get in there on a calm day with the IV-1200 Speedster, I GOTTA
use flaps, and I bring it over the approach fence at about 40 MIAS,
which is shy of 1.3Vso, and it's gotta' be on the back side of the power
curve. If I don't do that, it'll float too far. It's not the landing
roll thats the issue, it's the float.
Anyway, I guess my point is, the airplane will land shorter with flaps
than without, and it's important to consider what the person's situation
is. If I was flying out of a tower controlled airport (I don't know of
any that have a short runway), I wouldn't "recommend" flaps either, I
mean why bother with them? But for us true short-field-sters, flaps are
a must.
Best,
Nick
Do Not Archive
>Many times I'll be doing 80 over the numbers and land 500 ft
>down the runway.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>model IV, 1200
>speedster
>912ul
>Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | 582 Starter Problem |
I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I have
a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine just
fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery
indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between
13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a
problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean
all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst
case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand
experience with this?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Requirement |
You are not required to have a ELT durring your phase 1 flight testing
though so the plane can be certified without it. Jim
>From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ELT Requirement
>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:30:42 -0400
>
>Jos'e
> Off the top of my head, I believe an ELT is required for a "two"
>seater aircraft. Doesn't have anything to do with the 51% rule.
>
>Don Smythe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jose M. Toro
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:18 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: ELT Requirement
>
>
> Hi All:
>
> Do I need an ELT installed in order to certify a Kitfox under 51% rule?
>
> Jos
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Its tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's
possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning
the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it?
If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it
doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals.
Good luck.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I
have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine
just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery
indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between
13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a
problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean
all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst
case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand
experience with this?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Requirement |
check with your DAR
my FAA office requires me to record s/n and battery date
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104189#104189
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
The starter is probably dragging.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: fox5flyer<mailto:fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's
possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning
the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it?
If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it
doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals.
Good luck.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe<mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
To: Kitfox List<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I
have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine
just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery
indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between
13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a
problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean
all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst
case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand
experience with this?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
Deke,
That's when things started to get strange. I took a fully charged
car battery and jumped the system. The voltage dropped on both
batteries after one swing of the prop. In order to get the engine to
start I had to temporarily remove the prop. Got a good and fast
start...Once the engine warmed up (being very careful on the RPM's), I
shut down and reinstalled the prop. Warm engine started right up on the
first swing???? The above makes me suspect of a bad ground connection
or, the dreaded bad starter. Troubleshooting to continue....
Something is telling me not to sell my plane. I had an Air Force
Major on the way to PHF this morning to purchase my plane and I really
needed to get it started. About half way to my location, his aircraft
radio bit the dust. He had to turn around since he couldn't enter class
"D" without radio. This is the second time a prospective buyer has had
to cancel due to similar junk. Something ain't right here???
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: fox5flyer
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's
possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning
the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it?
If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it
doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals.
Good luck.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I
have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine
just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery
indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between
13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a
problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean
all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst
case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand
experience with this?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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Randy,.
I have had one occasion when full flaps hurt me. Wheel landing, wheels are
on the ground and a gust of cross wind lifted one wing till the other wing
just touched the ground. I too have a short strip, 1200 and 1300, and I use
full flaps except on a windy day. After putting my main wheels on the ground
i drop my flaps putting the tail on the ground and can use the brakes if
needed safer than having the tail up and upending the airplane.
In my 5 I need to come over the fence at least 60, stalls at 55, then touch
down, take the flaps off and roll out.
LeRoy
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
Ok, can you be a little more specific. What is a dragging starter?
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dee Young
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
The starter is probably dragging.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: fox5flyer
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's
possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning
the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it?
If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it
doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals.
Good luck.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem
I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I
have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine
just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery
indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between
13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a
problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean
all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst
case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand
experience with this?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
some time my starter will just buzz the prop will move a little then the
next hit of the switch it will role just fine and start. my problem is
different than yours don maybe a little feed back on mine too good luck don mal
michigan
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
Don,
A dragging starter is caused by the armiture rubbing against the housing
of the starter as it spins around turning the motor.
LeRoy
Message 15
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Gas Caps? |
Hello,
I have a model 4-1200 kit and have not been able to locate the caps for the fuel
tanks. Are they included in the kit and mine are long lost, or do you have
to obtain those from some supplier? I also did not find them listed in the parts
list, so my guess is that I get to buy them from Aircraft Spruce or some place
like that.
Thanks,
Kent
--------
kentk25[at]yahoo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104208#104208
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Requirement |
I'm not trying to be in any way arguementative, but I just went through
this issue with a Mark IV Avid I bought in January. It was built and the
flight test hours were never completly flown off. I had to get the FAA to
change the flight test area to my location. The plane did not have an ELT
and for that matter still doesn't have one. I got the amended airworthness
cert with no ploblem and the ELT was discussed durring the FAA inspection.
FAR part 91.207 covers ELTs and lists 11 different situations where ELTs are
not required. Thanks, Jim
>From: "dcsfoto" <david@kelm.com>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: ELT Requirement
>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:19:29 -0700
>
>
>check with your DAR
>my FAA office requires me to record s/n and battery date
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104189#104189
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Gas Caps? |
We have them in stock...
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kentk
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Tank Gas Caps?
Hello,
I have a model 4-1200 kit and have not been able to locate the caps for the
fuel tanks. Are they included in the kit and mine are long lost, or do you
have to obtain those from some supplier? I also did not find them listed in
the parts list, so my guess is that I get to buy them from Aircraft Spruce
or some place like that.
Thanks,
Kent
--------
kentk25[at]yahoo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104208#104208
--
1:15 PM
--
1:15 PM
Message 18
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Hi Leroy,
--- Dacha <tstaley@centurytel.net> wrote:
..........
> In my 5 I need to come over the fence at least 60,
> stalls at 55, then touch
> down, take the flaps off and roll out.
> LeRoy
Stalls at 55? I have an S-5 with an NSI Soob and it
stalls at 45mph clean. I wonder if your ASI is a bit
off at the low end?
Not really significant if so, because you have a
target speed to use whether correct or not. But if
correct speed, why is it stalling so fast? I thought
mine was stalling fast for a KitFox.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Starter Problem |
Hi Don and Malcholm,
>From Malcolm,
"some time my starter will just buzz the prop will
move a little then the next hit of the switch it will
role just fine and start. my problem is different
than yours don. maybe a little feed back on mine too
good luck don mal michigan"
..................................
>From Don Smythe
> Deke,
> That's when things started to get strange. I
> took a fully charged car battery and jumped the
> system. The voltage dropped on both batteries after
> one swing of the prop. In order to get the engine
> to start I had to temporarily remove the prop. Got
> a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up
> (being very careful on the RPM's), I shut down and
> reinstalled the prop. Warm engine started right up
> on the first swing???? The above makes me suspect
> of a bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad
> starter. Troubleshooting to continue....
................................................
Malcholm, yours' do sound different if Don is jumping
to the aircraft battery, not the engine....
Don, hopefully a bad ground or starter switch.
Consider this though:
I don't know the construction of your starters, but
there are only a few variations on the theme. Each
has to have some kind of solenoid to engage the
starter to the flywheel and an internal high amp
contact to power the starter motor. (Unless you have
a starter/generator connected to the engine all the
time. Not likely?)
I did a field repair on mine a few years ago when the
starter solenoid contactor failed internally. In my
case, the solenoid is supposed to engage the starter
and also make the high amp connection that gives the
electron path to the starter motor. This connector
had burned sufficiently to not allow high current
flow. First it was intermitant, then it got like
yours Malcholm, where it would hardly make contact.
If this is the case, you should hear the solenoid
cleanly snap the starter gear in place, but then the
starter motor acts weak. If the solenoid or contacts
to it are bad, or the battery is weak, the solenoid
itself vibrates or engages weakly. Since this all
happens very fast, you really have to listen for the
solenoid action before the starter action.
In my case, I was not able to find someone who was
able to rebuild mine quickly, or get a replacement, so
I made my own contact out of the brass end of a large
$10 fuse from the local hardware store. My repair
lasted until I sold..... ah.... my old Dodge Caravan
at 200,000 miles. Sorry, but a starter is a starter.
If you want to trouble shoot it, try the following:
With the prop and ignitions off, connect your jumper
cables directly to the starter cable bolt at the
starter and to a ground on the motor. Battery
negative to ground of course. This takes the aircraft
battery and other wiring out of the loop.
With a third small jumper wire, connect the jumper
battery + at the starter contact to the small wire
post on the starter used for your start switch. Be
careful! That should turn the starter over. Make
sure the ignitions are off first. Electrons can flow
in directions you don't anticipate.
If it spins up like new, you have a wiring problem on
the plane or bad battery, not a bad starter.
If it still shows problems, it is either the starter
motor, or the starter solenoid. That is all you have
connected.
Don, you said it worked OK with the prop off. You can
carefully try this with the prop on, just be careful
when the starter motor swings the prop. It may take
this greater load to make the problem occur, if your
solenoid contact can still pass some amps, but not
full power.
This is not to start the engine, as I said. Keep the
fuel and ignition off. All this is done with a jumper
battery up front taking the plane's systems out of the
loop.
Malcholm, yours does sound like the starter more than
Don's, but both of you need to troubleshoot to know.
On the starter, you could also have a bad solenoid,
bad solenoid contact, dirty armature contacts, or a
physical problem like case rubbing, or bad bearings.
Don't know if you really want to break it down past
starter or airplane though. Just something if you
want to repair your own starter. Some things are
easier than others.
Hope that helps,
Kurt S.
PS: When I was young, I took stuff apart all the time
at home. Good education, but when I got older and it
stopped being cute, I had to learn to put it all back
together too. :~(
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