---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/01/07: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:56 AM - Simulator Crash (W & R Beck) 2. 05:24 AM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (fox5flyer) 3. 05:49 AM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Don Smythe) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: Simulator Crash (Jim Crowder) 5. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: ELT Requirement (Jose M. Toro) 6. 06:12 AM - Re: Simulator Crash (Jose M. Toro) 7. 06:40 AM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Noel Loveys) 8. 10:17 AM - Re: Flap usage (kitfoxmike) 9. 10:21 AM - Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour (kitfoxmike) 10. 02:05 PM - 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (David Estapa) 11. 02:44 PM - Re: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (Don Smythe) 12. 02:46 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Gas Caps? (RAY Gignac) 13. 05:01 PM - Re: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (Lynn Matteson) 14. 05:12 PM - Re: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (Don Smythe) 15. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour (Clem Nichols) 16. 06:22 PM - Re: ELT Requirement (kirk hull) 17. 06:55 PM - Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour (Rexster) 18. 07:03 PM - Re: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (kurt schrader) 19. 07:09 PM - Re: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (kurt schrader) 20. 07:11 PM - Re: 582 Starter Problem (Malcolmbru@AOL.COM) 21. 11:31 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 22. 11:36 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:03 AM PST US From: "W & R Beck" Subject: Kitfox-List: Simulator Crash Folks: This (scanned) newspaper article has little to do directly with the Kitfox List, but much to do with aviation in general. Please forgive the slightly large file size; it is as small as I could make it and still be legible. Robert Beck Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:56 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Good morning Mr. Smythe. Yup, that's pretty strange all right. Personally, I'm skeptical about the prop having anything to do with it. Probably just coincidence and one of those things that only confuses the issue, causing you to go off in the wrong direction in your trouble shooting. Kurt's idea about taking the electrics out of the picture by going directly to the starter has merit, but isn't your starter at the back of the engine inside that cubby hole in the firewall? Still, you can just use one jumper lead to engine ground and the other to the main power lead going to the starter wherever you can hook on to it. The reason I don't think it's the starter itself is because they will usually give warnings long before they give up the ghost. If none of this works, the Aeroelectric list has a bunch of electrical geeks that love this sort of thing and I'm sure they could lead you to a quick resolution. Good luck. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Deke, That's when things started to get strange. I took a fully charged car battery and jumped the system. The voltage dropped on both batteries after one swing of the prop. In order to get the engine to start I had to temporarily remove the prop. Got a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up (being very careful on the RPM's), I shut down and reinstalled the prop. Warm engine started right up on the first swing???? The above makes me suspect of a bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad starter. Troubleshooting to continue.... Something is telling me not to sell my plane. I had an Air Force Major on the way to PHF this morning to purchase my plane and I really needed to get it started. About half way to my location, his aircraft radio bit the dust. He had to turn around since he couldn't enter class "D" without radio. This is the second time a prospective buyer has had to cancel due to similar junk. Something ain't right here??? Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it? If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals. Good luck. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: Kitfox List Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between 13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand experience with this? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:51 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Deke, The only thing about the prop is, when removed it takes all the load off the starter/engine. Even a weak battery will spin the Rotax with no prop load. You're right, the starter is tucked away so I can't get to the hot lug. I don't like jumping 12 volts directly to a starter. You always get a nice arch before you can get good contact. I would prefer to take the 12 volts directly to the starter through a temporary knife switch or similar device. BTW, it has always been a strong suggestion to "never" run a 582 with the prop removed. I can tell you this much, if you ever do this you better make sure the throttle is off and stand by with your fingers on the kill switch. As soon as the engine starts it will want to idle at about 2400 RPM's. As the engine warms up the RPM's will creep up to about 3000 + by the time you get to operating temps. Don't even try to give any throttle or it can run away easily. Don Smythe Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Good morning Mr. Smythe. Yup, that's pretty strange all right. Personally, I'm skeptical about the prop having anything to do with it. Probably just coincidence and one of those things that only confuses the issue, causing you to go off in the wrong direction in your trouble shooting. Kurt's idea about taking the electrics out of the picture by going directly to the starter has merit, but isn't your starter at the back of the engine inside that cubby hole in the firewall? Still, you can just use one jumper lead to engine ground and the other to the main power lead going to the starter wherever you can hook on to it. The reason I don't think it's the starter itself is because they will usually give warnings long before they give up the ghost. If none of this works, the Aeroelectric list has a bunch of electrical geeks that love this sort of thing and I'm sure they could lead you to a quick resolution. Good luck. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Deke, That's when things started to get strange. I took a fully charged car battery and jumped the system. The voltage dropped on both batteries after one swing of the prop. In order to get the engine to start I had to temporarily remove the prop. Got a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up (being very careful on the RPM's), I shut down and reinstalled the prop. Warm engine started right up on the first swing???? The above makes me suspect of a bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad starter. Troubleshooting to continue.... Something is telling me not to sell my plane. I had an Air Force Major on the way to PHF this morning to purchase my plane and I really needed to get it started. About half way to my location, his aircraft radio bit the dust. He had to turn around since he couldn't enter class "D" without radio. This is the second time a prospective buyer has had to cancel due to similar junk. Something ain't right here??? Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6 years, but it's possible that you have a shorted cell. Unlikely the starter. Cleaning the ground and power lugs is a good idea. Have you tried to jump it? If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad battery. If it doesn't, then suspect the starter or terminals. Good luck. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: Kitfox List Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem I just recently developed a problem with the starter on my 582. I have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used to spin the engine just fine. Now, I get one turn and not enough to start. The battery indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is putting out between 13.8 and 14.5 volts. I've pulled the battery and it does seem to have a problem when charging with my battery charger. Will also replace/clean all ground wires from the battery to the engine. Just wondering worst case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit. Any first hand experience with this? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:01 AM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Simulator Crash Only on April 1st could a thing like this occur. Jim Crowder do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of W & R Beck Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:45 PM To: Kitfox List Subject: Kitfox-List: Simulator Crash Folks: This (scanned) newspaper article has little to do directly with the Kitfox List, but much to do with aviation in general. Please forgive the slightly large file size; it is as small as I could make it and still be legible. Robert Beck Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:08 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: ELT Requirement Thanks for your responses on the ELT requirement! I don't have an ELT in my Kitfox. I just learned from FAR 91.207 that the ELT is not required for Phase 1, but it is for Phase 2. That's why my Kifox was certified without one. Seems like I was doing something wrong, and will need to get legal. Best regards! Jos ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:58:16 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: ELT Requirement I'm not trying to be in any way arguementative, but I just went through this issue with a Mark IV Avid I bought in January. It was built and the flight test hours were never completly flown off. I had to get the FAA to change the flight test area to my location. The plane did not have an ELT and for that matter still doesn't have one. I got the amended airworthness cert with no ploblem and the ELT was discussed durring the FAA inspection. FAR part 91.207 covers ELTs and lists 11 different situations where ELTs are not required. Thanks, Jim >From: "dcsfoto" >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: ELT Requirement >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:19:29 -0700 > > >check with your DAR >my FAA office requires me to record s/n and battery date > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104189#104189 > > _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN Presents today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001 Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:42 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Simulator Crash Is it this an aprilfool joke? :-) ----- Original Message ---- From: W & R Beck Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:44:58 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Simulator Crash Folks: This (scanned) newspaper article has little to do directly with the Kitfox List, but much to do with aviation in general. Please forgive the slightly large file size; it is as small as I could make it and still be legible. Robert Beck Do not archive Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:54 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem I was talking to out old, MIA, quick lipped, bud Dave F. He runs a shop and rebuilds starters among other things. (Jack of all trades) He said he got banned... Another topic not for here. I asked him if he thought the bushings on the starter might be worn to the point that the starter would not produce the proper torque to swing the engine. What he said was: Denzo brushes and a clean of commutator bars would likely fix it . All avail but NOT at Rotax. The starter drive on C box is expen$ive........ The housing the starter bolts to is $350 alone. He also warned me not to tighten the starter too tight and break that part of the case - it is rubber mounted.......... It should have about 1mm clearance ( .040" ) He doubts it is a bad connection but said it was a possibility. If you want to contact him directly on this try: davef@cfisher.com I thought this was pertinent to the list so I decided to chance my membership and make the post for him. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > kurt schrader > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 2:53 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem > > > > > Hi Don and Malcholm, > > >From Malcolm, > > "some time my starter will just buzz the prop will > move a little then the next hit of the switch it will > role just fine and start. my problem is different > than yours don. maybe a little feed back on mine too > good luck don mal michigan" > .................................. > >From Don Smythe > > > Deke, > > That's when things started to get strange. I > > took a fully charged car battery and jumped the > > system. The voltage dropped on both batteries after > > one swing of the prop. In order to get the engine > > to start I had to temporarily remove the prop. Got > > a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up > > (being very careful on the RPM's), I shut down and > > reinstalled the prop. Warm engine started right up > > on the first swing???? The above makes me suspect > > of a bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad > > starter. Troubleshooting to continue.... > ................................................ > Malcholm, yours' do sound different if Don is jumping > to the aircraft battery, not the engine.... > > Don, hopefully a bad ground or starter switch. > Consider this though: > > I don't know the construction of your starters, but > there are only a few variations on the theme. Each > has to have some kind of solenoid to engage the > starter to the flywheel and an internal high amp > contact to power the starter motor. (Unless you have > a starter/generator connected to the engine all the > time. Not likely?) > > I did a field repair on mine a few years ago when the > starter solenoid contactor failed internally. In my > case, the solenoid is supposed to engage the starter > and also make the high amp connection that gives the > electron path to the starter motor. This connector > had burned sufficiently to not allow high current > flow. First it was intermitant, then it got like > yours Malcholm, where it would hardly make contact. > > If this is the case, you should hear the solenoid > cleanly snap the starter gear in place, but then the > starter motor acts weak. If the solenoid or contacts > to it are bad, or the battery is weak, the solenoid > itself vibrates or engages weakly. Since this all > happens very fast, you really have to listen for the > solenoid action before the starter action. > > In my case, I was not able to find someone who was > able to rebuild mine quickly, or get a replacement, so > I made my own contact out of the brass end of a large > $10 fuse from the local hardware store. My repair > lasted until I sold..... ah.... my old Dodge Caravan > at 200,000 miles. Sorry, but a starter is a starter. > > If you want to trouble shoot it, try the following: > > With the prop and ignitions off, connect your jumper > cables directly to the starter cable bolt at the > starter and to a ground on the motor. Battery > negative to ground of course. This takes the aircraft > battery and other wiring out of the loop. > > With a third small jumper wire, connect the jumper > battery + at the starter contact to the small wire > post on the starter used for your start switch. Be > careful! That should turn the starter over. Make > sure the ignitions are off first. Electrons can flow > in directions you don't anticipate. > > If it spins up like new, you have a wiring problem on > the plane or bad battery, not a bad starter. > > If it still shows problems, it is either the starter > motor, or the starter solenoid. That is all you have > connected. > > Don, you said it worked OK with the prop off. You can > carefully try this with the prop on, just be careful > when the starter motor swings the prop. It may take > this greater load to make the problem occur, if your > solenoid contact can still pass some amps, but not > full power. > > This is not to start the engine, as I said. Keep the > fuel and ignition off. All this is done with a jumper > battery up front taking the plane's systems out of the > loop. > > Malcholm, yours does sound like the starter more than > Don's, but both of you need to troubleshoot to know. > > On the starter, you could also have a bad solenoid, > bad solenoid contact, dirty armature contacts, or a > physical problem like case rubbing, or bad bearings. > Don't know if you really want to break it down past > starter or airplane though. Just something if you > want to repair your own starter. Some things are > easier than others. > > Hope that helps, > > Kurt S. > > PS: When I was young, I took stuff apart all the time > at home. Good education, but when I got older and it > stopped being cute, I had to learn to put it all back > together too. :~( > > > > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:51 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flap usage From: "kitfoxmike" To each their own. By the way, when I land it's right on the edge of the runway when I want to be short. Also, I flair for 3 point and do a stall landing, sometimes I drop a foot with a good thump, no bounce, this is the way I learned to do a short landing, no float, just a nice solid thump and land. Roll out is nice and short. The last time I checked my airspeed when flairing and landing it was 38mph. no flaps. I know if I really wanted to land slower just put on the flaps, but I like complete full control so I rather keep the flaps off and have the 100 percent aileron control. After all I really don't need flaps when I have over 1000ft of runway anyway. But I will say, I practice flap landings just to keep up on using them in case I need the extra. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104302#104302 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:38 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour From: "kitfoxmike" Holy crap, I just flew with a new IVO 70". Man O man, what a difference. I can run down the runway at 80mph and pull up and hit 1800ft per minute without having to neutral the stick, just kept climbing. So far cruise is at least 15mph faster. WOW is all I can say. This is the prop for my plane. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104303#104303 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps From: David Estapa Yesterday I flew for the second time in N97DE. The previous reported electrical problems were resolved by replacing the motorcycle supplied by Skystar with an Odessay 680. No blown capacitors and it spins the prop at start much faster. I can't say enough about this battery. We think the old battery had a bad cell. It's too light for a boat anchor so I'll use it as a personal security system and throw it at burglars or muggers. However my oil temps were still high. I have the smooth cowl series 5 with a 912ULS. The oil cooler is in the standard location, inlet just below the spinner. Most posts with this system complain they can't get temps high enough. What am I doing wrong? I did notice that the line from the tank to the cooler is close to the exhaust on the front left cylinder and parallels it for several inches. I have braided stainless covered hoses. Several people at the airport didn't think this could cause the problem. But I am going to reroute it slightly and put a heat shield on the exhaust. Also have ordered a cool collar for the oil filter. Any other suggestions or things to look for? I need to get back in the air. David Estapa Woodstock, GA S5TD N97DE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:22 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps David, Speaking of the Odessay 680, that is the battery that's giving me problems right now. I used to work a little part time for an experimental helicopter company and that's what they used also. They had several of the 680's go bad. As a matter of fact, that's where I got mine. They had another go bad and gave it to me for a replacement from Spruce. Anyway, I have a very early way out theory as to why theirs and mine went bad so fast. I read somewhere that periods of non usage could cause early failure. Their helicopters would sit for months without being used. My plane flew very little last year. Just something to keep in mind. I still don't know if my problem is the battery or not. Will take it to a battery specialist tomorrow for test. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Estapa" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 5:02 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps > > Yesterday I flew for the second time in N97DE. The previous reported > electrical problems were resolved by replacing the motorcycle supplied by > Skystar with an Odessay 680. No blown capacitors and it spins the prop at > start much faster. I can't say enough about this battery. We think the > old battery had a bad cell. It's too light for a boat anchor so I'll use > it as a personal security system and throw it at burglars or muggers. > However my oil temps were still high. I have the smooth cowl series 5 > with a 912ULS. The oil cooler is in the standard location, inlet just > below the spinner. Most posts with this system complain they can't get > temps high enough. What am I doing wrong? I did notice that the line from > the tank to the cooler is close to the exhaust on the front left cylinder > and parallels it for several inches. I have braided stainless covered > hoses. Several people at the airport didn't think this could cause the > problem. But I am going to reroute it slightly and put a heat shield on > the exhaust. Also have ordered a cool collar for the oil filter. Any > other suggestions or things to look for? > > I need to get back in the air. > > David Estapa > Woodstock, GA > S5TD N97DE > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:00 PM PST US From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Tank Gas Caps? Contact John at Kitfoxaircarft, I'm sure he will have what you need. (sportplanellc.com) Ray >From: "kentk" >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Tank Gas Caps? >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:46:36 -0700 > > >Hello, > >I have a model 4-1200 kit and have not been able to locate the caps for the >fuel tanks. Are they included in the kit and mine are long lost, or do you >have to obtain those from some supplier? I also did not find them listed >in the parts list, so my guess is that I get to buy them from Aircraft >Spruce or some place like that. > >Thanks, >Kent > >-------- >kentk25[at]yahoo > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104208#104208 > > _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:31 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps I have an Odyssey (corrected spelling via looking at my battery) 680 battery, and it performs flawlessly. I've had it in my plane for nearly a year....240 hours. The first one I had in the plane got cooked when an exhaust pipe broke off the engine, and the resultant heat licked around the battery box, melted the end cell, and three weeks later...yes, THREE weeks later...the battery died. I replaced it with another Odyssey 680, and it's been starting my Jabiru 2200 engine every time I fly, which is about every 2-3 days including the single digit F. temps here in Michigan's winters. Sometimes I had to go 2 weeks without flying, and the battery needed no boosting during these long periods, even though it was in the plane inside an unheated hangar. I don't think I'll ever use anything but this battery. Lynn Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 On Apr 1, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > > David, > Speaking of the Odessay 680, that is the battery that's giving > me problems right now. I used to work a little part time for an > experimental helicopter company and that's what they used also. > They had several of the 680's go bad. As a matter of fact, that's > where I got mine. They had another go bad and gave it to me for a > replacement from Spruce. Anyway, I have a very early way out > theory as to why theirs and mine went bad so fast. > I read somewhere that periods of non usage could cause early > failure. Their helicopters would sit for months without being > used. My plane flew very little last year. Just something to keep > in mind. I still don't know if my problem is the battery or not. > Will take it to a battery specialist tomorrow for test. > > Don Smythe > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Estapa" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 5:02 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps > > >> >> Yesterday I flew for the second time in N97DE. The previous reported >> electrical problems were resolved by replacing the motorcycle >> supplied by >> Skystar with an Odessay 680. No blown capacitors and it spins the >> prop at >> start much faster. I can't say enough about this battery. We think >> the >> old battery had a bad cell. It's too light for a boat anchor so >> I'll use >> it as a personal security system and throw it at burglars or muggers. >> However my oil temps were still high. I have the smooth cowl series 5 >> with a 912ULS. The oil cooler is in the standard location, inlet just >> below the spinner. Most posts with this system complain they can't >> get >> temps high enough. What am I doing wrong? I did notice that the >> line from >> the tank to the cooler is close to the exhaust on the front left >> cylinder >> and parallels it for several inches. I have braided stainless covered >> hoses. Several people at the airport didn't think this could cause >> the >> problem. But I am going to reroute it slightly and put a heat >> shield on >> the exhaust. Also have ordered a cool collar for the oil filter. Any >> other suggestions or things to look for? >> >> I need to get back in the air. >> >> David Estapa >> Woodstock, GA >> S5TD N97DE >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:49 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps Lynn, That's a good report on the 680. Mine worked like a champ for over a year but, like I said, there is a remote possibility that non-use might be a bad thing. You have lots of hours on yours and that "might" be the answer to longevity. Once I get mine tested and talk to the dealer, I'll report back. Don Smythe Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps > > I have an Odyssey (corrected spelling via looking at my battery) 680 > battery, and it performs flawlessly. I've had it in my plane for nearly a > year....240 hours. The first one I had in the plane got cooked when an > exhaust pipe broke off the engine, and the resultant heat licked around > the battery box, melted the end cell, and three weeks later...yes, THREE > weeks later...the battery died. I replaced it with another Odyssey 680, > and it's been starting my Jabiru 2200 engine every time I fly, which is > about every 2-3 days including the single digit F. temps here in > Michigan's winters. Sometimes I had to go 2 weeks without flying, and the > battery needed no boosting during these long periods, even though it was > in the plane inside an unheated hangar. I don't think I'll ever use > anything but this battery. > > Lynn > Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 > > On Apr 1, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Don Smythe wrote: > >> >> David, >> Speaking of the Odessay 680, that is the battery that's giving me >> problems right now. I used to work a little part time for an >> experimental helicopter company and that's what they used also. They >> had several of the 680's go bad. As a matter of fact, that's where I >> got mine. They had another go bad and gave it to me for a replacement >> from Spruce. Anyway, I have a very early way out theory as to why >> theirs and mine went bad so fast. >> I read somewhere that periods of non usage could cause early failure. >> Their helicopters would sit for months without being used. My plane >> flew very little last year. Just something to keep in mind. I still >> don't know if my problem is the battery or not. Will take it to a >> battery specialist tomorrow for test. >> >> Don Smythe >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Estapa" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 5:02 PM >> Subject: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps >> >> >>> >>> Yesterday I flew for the second time in N97DE. The previous reported >>> electrical problems were resolved by replacing the motorcycle supplied >>> by >>> Skystar with an Odessay 680. No blown capacitors and it spins the prop >>> at >>> start much faster. I can't say enough about this battery. We think the >>> old battery had a bad cell. It's too light for a boat anchor so I'll >>> use >>> it as a personal security system and throw it at burglars or muggers. >>> However my oil temps were still high. I have the smooth cowl series 5 >>> with a 912ULS. The oil cooler is in the standard location, inlet just >>> below the spinner. Most posts with this system complain they can't get >>> temps high enough. What am I doing wrong? I did notice that the line >>> from >>> the tank to the cooler is close to the exhaust on the front left >>> cylinder >>> and parallels it for several inches. I have braided stainless covered >>> hoses. Several people at the airport didn't think this could cause the >>> problem. But I am going to reroute it slightly and put a heat shield on >>> the exhaust. Also have ordered a cool collar for the oil filter. Any >>> other suggestions or things to look for? >>> >>> I need to get back in the air. >>> >>> David Estapa >>> Woodstock, GA >>> S5TD N97DE >>> >>> >>> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:20 PM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour Mike: What prop were you using before you switched to the IVO? Your report is very interesting, to say the least, but only half complete. Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "kitfoxmike" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:20 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour > > Holy crap, I just flew with a new IVO 70". Man O man, what a difference. > I can run down the runway at 80mph and pull up and hit 1800ft per minute > without having to neutral the stick, just kept climbing. So far cruise is > at least 15mph faster. WOW is all I can say. This is the prop for my > plane. > > -------- > kitfoxmike > model IV, 1200 > speedster > 912ul > Do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104303#104303 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:10 PM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: ELT Requirement You can certify with out but as soon as you take passengers ( the 2 seat rule) you need one. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: ELT Requirement Hi All: Do I need an ELT installed in order to certify a Kitfox under 51% rule? Jos=E9 _____ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:33 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallons per hour Mike and Clem, Was that prop tested today (April 1st?) Rex in Michigan -- "Clem Nichols" wrote: Mike: What prop were you using before you switched to the IVO? Your report is very interesting, to say the least, but only half complete. Clem Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "kitfoxmike" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:20 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based on gallo ns per hour > > > Holy crap, I just flew with a new IVO 70". Man O man, what a differen ce. > I can run down the runway at 80mph and pull up and hit 1800ft per minu te > without having to neutral the stick, just kept climbing. So far cruis e is > at least 15mph faster. WOW is all I can say. This is the prop for my > plane. > > -------- > kitfoxmike > model IV, 1200 > speedster > 912ul > Do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104303#104303 > > > ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Mike and Clem,

  Was that prop tested today (April 1st?)

Rex in Michigan

-- "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@ scrtc.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message p osted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>< BR>
Mike:

What prop were you using be fore you switched to the IVO?  Your&n bsp;report is 
very interesting, to say  ;the least, but only half complete.

Clem  Nichols


----- Original Message -----&nbs p;
From: "kitfoxmike" <customtrans@qwest.net>
To:& nbsp;<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, April& nbsp;01, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List:  ;Re: Best prop was: Fuel consumption based  on gallons 
per hour


> -->  Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike"&nb sp;<customtrans@qwest.net>
>
> Holy crap,&nb sp;I just flew with a new IVO 70".&nb sp; Man O man, what a difference. 
> I can run down the runway at&nb sp;80mph and pull up and hit 1800ft p er minute 
> without having to neutr al the stick, just kept climbing.  So  far cruise is 
> at least 15mp h faster.  WOW is all I can say.   This is the prop for my 
&g t; plane.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> model IV, 1200
> speedster
> 9 12ul
> Do not archive
>
>
>
&g t;
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104303#10430 3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================== ========================  Use the Matronics List Features Navigator ;Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse,&n ======================== =           &nb sp;  - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
======================== ======================== =
________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:59 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps Don, I have one of those $25 battery desulfator/chargers on my plane's battery right now. It is supposed to double your battery life, especially for infrequent use. The thing puts out very short pulses of high voltage, so low current, to knock the sulfate off the plates. I just started using it this year, so can't confirm it works. But for $25, saving one battery change covers it. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Don Smythe wrote: > David, > Speaking of the Odessay 680, that is the battery > that's giving me problems right now.......... It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:03 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps Darn gang, I didn't change the subject line myself on my reply. We keep missing this so it is hard to look stuff up in the archive... Also some decide what to read by the subject lines only. Us old folks need frequent reminders.... ;-( Kurt S. Do not archive --- Don Smythe wrote: > David, > Speaking of the Odessay 680, that is the battery > that's giving me > problems right now. I used to work a little part > time for an experimental > helicopter company and that's what they used also. > They had several of the 680's go bad......... Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:52 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Starter Problem I think the need to add moor power to the starter or take the drag off the motor is a sign the starter is wearing out. cleaning some connectors and replacing the other electric parts is all you can do before you take the motor out and I know how much that sucks. A place like leaf or lockwood can tell you in what order to replace the parts and which ones fix the problem most commonly . If I called them tomorrow they could tell me why my starter acts the way it douse and how to fix it. mal ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:26 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Kitfox-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kitfox-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kitfox-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: kitfox-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "kitfox-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Kitfox-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kitfox-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kitfox-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kitfox-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:21 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.