Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:26 AM - Re: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again (Don Smythe)
2. 05:32 AM - Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (fox5flyer)
3. 05:46 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) ()
4. 05:53 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Don Smythe)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Vertical Fin Height...Model 2 or 3? (Rexinator)
6. 07:55 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)/plastic drop in tanks (RRTRACK@aol.com)
7. 08:14 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Bob)
8. 08:34 AM - Re: Starter grinding noise (alnanarthur)
9. 10:51 AM - Re: Starter grinding noise (fox5flyer)
10. 11:10 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Lowell Fitt)
11. 11:47 AM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (fox5flyer)
12. 12:41 PM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Michel Verheughe)
13. 01:57 PM - Re: Starter grinding noise (Don Smythe)
14. 02:13 PM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Don Smythe)
15. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey battery WAS: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps (GONER752@aol.com)
16. 03:44 PM - Re: Vertical Fin Height...Model 2 or 3? (Aerobatics@aol.com)
17. 03:55 PM - Re: Starter grinding noise ()
18. 04:41 PM - Re: Starter grinding noise (Don Smythe)
19. 04:49 PM - Re: Starter grinding noise (Noel Loveys)
20. 05:11 PM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Lowell Fitt)
21. 05:19 PM - Battery box for Odyssey PC625 battery (Jose M. Toro)
22. 05:27 PM - Re: Battery box for Odyssey PC625 battery (Don Smythe)
23. 05:34 PM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (Don Smythe)
24. 06:08 PM - Re: Starter grinding noise ()
25. 11:16 PM - Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again |
John,
I've made this comment (opinion) a couple times over the years when the
Kreeme subject comes up and nobody has ever come back and told me I'm stupid
for saying it. Here goes... Lets make a very wild untrue statement and say
that Ethanol will eat a hole in a fiberglass tank like a hot spark through
plastic. Now, this is not the case but let's say that Ethanol over time
will damage fiberglass.
Kreeme was designed (per the Manufacturer) to fill small holes in small
round metal motorcycle tanks. Kreeme was not designed to protect the metal
of the tanks.
Kreeme in our fiberglass tanks has without doubt (several proven cases,
including mine) either spider cracked or come loose in sheets.
Kreeme is very difficult to slosh in it's original consistency.
Therefore, it must be heavily thinned with MEK to do the job. The original
Kreeme installation in my tanks was either sprayed or painted before the
tank tops were epoxied together.
Assuming you were able to get a "good" 100% sloshing and there is
absolutely zero fiberglass exposed then Kreeme might provide a temporary
barrier between the Ethanol and the Fiberglass. However, if later the
Kreeme cracks/peels/or chips (even a spot the size of a pencil) then the
Ethanol is going to find a path to the fiberglass and wick itself as it
softens.
To me, this is very similar to trying to get one more flight out of my
bad starter and hoping the flywheel doesn't come apart Sort of like putting
a band-aid on a broken arm. IMHO, no sloshing material will provide 100%
assurance at protecting the base material of our tanks. All it would take
is one small hairline crack or chip and the whole barrier has been violated.
Last time I used the "example" of making a tank out of Styrofoam and
filling with gas. We all know what happens when gasoline hits Styrofoam.
Then, risking your life by taking the same Styrofoam tanks and coating it
with some gasoline proof barrier and hoping the gasoline never gets past it.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again
>
> Due to concern about fiberglas tanks and ethanol in CA
> car gas, I studied tank sealants last year, from info
> on this list, searching the inernet, and contacting
> the manufacturers. My conclusion was Kreem was the
> one to try to protect fiberglas tanks from ethanol.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic and has far reaching
effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks who have been around
Kitfoxes for a long time, most of you already know all about the Kreem and
the problems we've had with it in our wing tanks. For those of you who are
relatively new Kitfoxers, whether builders or buyers, it may pay you to
search the archives with key word "Kreem" and read all you can about it
because there is a ton of information on it. Sportflight.com has an
extensive searchable archive of Kitfox topics, not to mention Matronics.
Historically, the early Kitfoxes used to have aluminum tanks, but the
flexing of the wings tended to cause them to crack and leak. Not all of
them cracked, but often enough that Skystar decided to change to fiberglass
tanks. Even these tanks were troublesome because the glass fibers would
wick fuel through the tank wall and the tank tended to seep fuel. Again,
not all of them, but enough to take action and the action taken was Kreem.
Kreem is a fuel tank sealer that is used throughout the fuel tank industry,
often in fuel tanks that have rusted inside and have slight leaks. It does
a good job if it's applied properly.
In the case of the Skystar tanks, they were not properly prepped, meaning
the mold release agent wasn't thoroughly cleaned out and the result was that
over time the Kreem tended to flake off in sheets, often before the tank was
even installed in the wing. These builders were the lucky ones because it
was easy to fix the problem with the tank out of the wing. Some poor souls
had to recoat the tanks with the tanks installed. Not an easy task.
Not all people recoated their tanks and to my knowledge had no problems. I
personally did recoat, but my tanks were not yet installed and it wasn't
that big of a deal to do it. So far, after six years, no problems.
Supposedly the Kreem is resistant to alcohol and it's derivatives, but at
that time, there wasn't much of it being used in fuels so it's a wait 'n see
thing on that. Personally, I'm not going to make any moves and hope the
Kreem does it's job when the Ethanol becomes common place.
Currently I don't know what material is being used in the fuel tanks being
manufactured for the Kitfoxes, but I hope whatever it is is resistant to
Ethanol. Actually, our problems are insignificant to others. The in-ground
fuel tanks being used for mass storage in gas stations must be resistant or
we're going to have some serious pollution problems in the future. Whatever
they're using I would suspect would be the answer.
Sorry for the length of this. I just wanted to bring everyone up to speed
on this to answer questions I'm sure many have in their mind about their
fuel tanks. As far as each individual goes, it's probably best to assess
what tanks you have, whether they're coated or not, then make a decision as
to whether you need to take action to avert problems down the road or not do
anything unless there's a problem. My recommendation would be the latter.
Rotationally molded plastic seems to me to be the long term answer, but it's
expensive to produce unless in large quantities. I think Rans has been
using them for many years.
If any of the above is inaccurate, feel free to straighten me up. OK, I'll
get down off of my milk crate now.
Deke
NE Michigan
40f, windy, overcast with snow on the way
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again
>
> Due to concern about fiberglas tanks and ethanol in CA
> car gas, I studied tank sealants last year, from info
> on this list, searching the inernet, and contacting
> the manufacturers. My conclusion was Kreem was the
> one to try to protect fiberglas tanks from ethanol.
>
> As it is not compatible with all fiberglas tanks, they
> recommended checking the tank with MEK and acetone
> soaking first. I tried that and alcohol on mine and
> it seemed impervious. I decided not to slosh it. In
> the time since, I have not noticed any problems with
> using car gas.
>
> There was rumor, maybe from this list, that the Kitfox
> tank composition was changed around 1994, which is
> around when the wing tanks on mine were made.
> Sacramento Sky Ranch sells Kreem.
>
> John Allen
> Kitfox IV Speedster
>
>
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Deke,
I will wait and see my self and then look for replacement tanks if they fail
.
I would guess that the best replacement would be a drop in plastic tank
where you could cut open the top of the existing tank and drop in a new
"fuel cell" with close to came capacity .
Would a tank made of same plastic that gas cans are made of be a suitable
material ?
Would be simple fix in my opinion. Drop in attach lines,secure and cover and
/or paint and done in an afternoon.
But The question is where can you get one of these made ?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
> Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic and has far reaching
> effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks who have been around
> Kitfoxes for a long time, most of you already know all about the Kreem and
> the problems we've had with it in our wing tanks. For those of you who
> are
> relatively new Kitfoxers, whether builders or buyers, it may pay you to
> search the archives with key word "Kreem" and read all you can about it
> because there is a ton of information on it. Sportflight.com has an
> extensive searchable archive of Kitfox topics, not to mention Matronics.
> Historically, the early Kitfoxes used to have aluminum tanks, but the
> flexing of the wings tended to cause them to crack and leak. Not all of
> them cracked, but often enough that Skystar decided to change to
> fiberglass
> tanks. Even these tanks were troublesome because the glass fibers would
> wick fuel through the tank wall and the tank tended to seep fuel. Again,
> not all of them, but enough to take action and the action taken was Kreem.
> Kreem is a fuel tank sealer that is used throughout the fuel tank
> industry,
> often in fuel tanks that have rusted inside and have slight leaks. It
> does
> a good job if it's applied properly.
> In the case of the Skystar tanks, they were not properly prepped, meaning
> the mold release agent wasn't thoroughly cleaned out and the result was
> that
> over time the Kreem tended to flake off in sheets, often before the tank
> was
> even installed in the wing. These builders were the lucky ones because it
> was easy to fix the problem with the tank out of the wing. Some poor
> souls
> had to recoat the tanks with the tanks installed. Not an easy task.
> Not all people recoated their tanks and to my knowledge had no problems.
> I
> personally did recoat, but my tanks were not yet installed and it wasn't
> that big of a deal to do it. So far, after six years, no problems.
> Supposedly the Kreem is resistant to alcohol and it's derivatives, but at
> that time, there wasn't much of it being used in fuels so it's a wait 'n
> see
> thing on that. Personally, I'm not going to make any moves and hope the
> Kreem does it's job when the Ethanol becomes common place.
> Currently I don't know what material is being used in the fuel tanks being
> manufactured for the Kitfoxes, but I hope whatever it is is resistant to
> Ethanol. Actually, our problems are insignificant to others. The
> in-ground
> fuel tanks being used for mass storage in gas stations must be resistant
> or
> we're going to have some serious pollution problems in the future.
> Whatever
> they're using I would suspect would be the answer.
> Sorry for the length of this. I just wanted to bring everyone up to speed
> on this to answer questions I'm sure many have in their mind about their
> fuel tanks. As far as each individual goes, it's probably best to assess
> what tanks you have, whether they're coated or not, then make a decision
> as
> to whether you need to take action to avert problems down the road or not
> do
> anything unless there's a problem. My recommendation would be the latter.
> Rotationally molded plastic seems to me to be the long term answer, but
> it's
> expensive to produce unless in large quantities. I think Rans has been
> using them for many years.
> If any of the above is inaccurate, feel free to straighten me up. OK,
> I'll
> get down off of my milk crate now.
> Deke
> NE Michigan
> 40f, windy, overcast with snow on the way
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:25 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again
>
>
>>
>> Due to concern about fiberglas tanks and ethanol in CA
>> car gas, I studied tank sealants last year, from info
>> on this list, searching the inernet, and contacting
>> the manufacturers. My conclusion was Kreem was the
>> one to try to protect fiberglas tanks from ethanol.
>>
>> As it is not compatible with all fiberglas tanks, they
>> recommended checking the tank with MEK and acetone
>> soaking first. I tried that and alcohol on mine and
>> it seemed impervious. I decided not to slosh it. In
>> the time since, I have not noticed any problems with
>> using car gas.
>>
>> There was rumor, maybe from this list, that the Kitfox
>> tank composition was changed around 1994, which is
>> around when the wing tanks on mine were made.
>> Sacramento Sky Ranch sells Kreem.
>>
>> John Allen
>> Kitfox IV Speedster
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Deke,
I think your history lesson is close enough to bringing everything up to
present. My long post was meant to open everyone's mind to look in another
direction when it comes to protecting the base fiberglass material with a
barrier product. This was an opinion with no testing to prove it.
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
> Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic and has far reaching
> effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks who have been around
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Fin Height...Model 2 or 3? |
Anliker, Mark wrote:
> Trying to determine if my friend has a Model 2 or Model 3 Kitfox.
> Vertical fin height was measured as 44. Rudder height was measured as
> 43.25. Would appreciate replies from those with ready access to their
> Kitfox and a tape measure. Thanks.
>
My Model 2 measures 44" for both the vertical fin and rudder at the hinge.
Actually slightly under 44" by about 1/16". Can you be more specific as
to where you want the measurement taken?
(You should also be able to tell by serial number, mine is S/N 496 )
Rex
Colorado
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)/plastic drop in |
tanks
Airdale Flyer Co.(Avid) was making 6 gallon drop in plastic tanks that fit
inside ribs to replace or drop into existing glass wing tanks. Should work for
most Kitfox wings, call Steve!
_ukav8r@mindspring.com_ (mailto:ukav8r@mindspring.com)
Steve @ 208-459-6254
Mark
Wisconsin
Kitfox 5 Vixen 912 UL (IVO on order)
Avid "B" STOL 582
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Great job on capturing the subject by Don and Deke. Since I'm just finishing my
tail and about to start on the wings, plus we do have 5-10% ethanol in our car
gas in Maryland, so this is extremely timely for me. Thanks to both of you.
My tanks are from the very first lot of Series 5 parts, probably built in 1993,
and never installed, so I've been researching possible approaches before I install
them. The simplest was from one of the more experienced people in the group
and he suggested rinsing the old fiberglass tanks out with acetone, then
re-Kreem. He did point out that Kreem does have a "life" and after a half-dozen
years the tanks may again need to be rinsed and re-Kreemed.
The extreme "other end" approach is to make new tanks out of plastic. I started
researching this by Googling what the car makers have done. They've kept treated
steel as the tank material in a number of vehicles for cost. Otherwise, the
automakers started wide-spread use of HDPE (like red plastic jerry cans) in
the early 1990s and their tanks are expected to last a minimum of 10 years.
Their current problem is that basic HDPE is permiable and some fuel components
will outgas, so they are going to multi-layer plastic tanks, but this is way
past what we are concerned about. The bottom-line is that HDPE as a material should
work for us.
Next part of the puzzle is how to make the tank. The car makers form theirs through
rotational or blow-molding, which is out of our cost league. However, the
boat industry seems to be getting along fine with welded tanks. Google found
that they are going to 8-12mm HDPE with baffles every 300mm and doing proof
tests at 0.2 bar (2.9 psi) pressurization. Aviation pressure requirements are
3.5psi, so a Kitfox tank would need to decrease the baffle spacing.
There is a plastic welding firm in Baltimore that has done good work for me before
and making various types of plastic industrial tanks is most of their business,
so I'm seriously looking at whether this is something I want to do. I'll
probably still have to stay away from auto gas here because of the downstream
issues, such as replacing the fuel lines (easy), carburetor concerns (hmm), etc.
Any input would be appreciated.
Bob
home email = dswaim1119 at comcast dot net
ps - Thanks to Jeff and a couple of others for reminding me that Rustoleum dissolves
with MEK - I couldn't remember if it did or not. I used the Rustoleum as
a temporary measure to keep the steel from rusting until I can get epoxy paint.
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104878#104878
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
Don,
How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine
has started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
engine then as the engine goes faster then the
starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've
looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin-
up without turning the engine. Once I heard a
scraping noise.
Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
Allan Arthur
Kitfox 5, N40AA
Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>
> Kurt,
> I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I
> had already just about come to that conclusion but your email
> tipped the scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off
> and get her back in the air by mid next week.
>
> Thanks
> Don Smythe
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
I think the 582 starter uses a Bendix type of connection, similar to an
automobile starter.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "alnanarthur" <alnanarthur@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
> Don,
>
> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine
> has started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
> engine then as the engine goes faster then the
> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've
> looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>
> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin-
> up without turning the engine. Once I heard a
> scraping noise.
>
> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>
>
> Allan Arthur
> Kitfox 5, N40AA
> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>
> >
> > Kurt,
> > I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
> > tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I
> > had already just about come to that conclusion but your email
> > tipped the scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off
> > and get her back in the air by mid next week.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Don Smythe
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
A couple of things here.
On the way to the Desert Fox fly-in we overnighted in Overton, NV and our
host took us on a tour of the local builders hangars. One had a Rans
rotationally molded tank. I am not entirely clear on this, but when the
tank comes it is rather hourglass shaped - at normal contour at the ends,
fore and aft, but collapsed in the middle of the flat surfaces. Their
instructions call for filling with water to reform the tanks to more or less
the countour of the airfoil. These have no internal baffles to help hold
the shape or to keep the fuel from sloshing. Using them as part of the
airfoil as the Kitfox fiberglass tanks would be unwise as they will most
certainly change shape as the amount of fuel in them changes - just like the
jugs we use will bulge out when full and return to their manufactured shape
when empty.
The Tans tanks hold about 10 gallons or so each and are mounted on top of
the drag - antidrag tubes. They definitely introduce an entirely new set of
issues.
Regarding the Kreem. I checked again this morning for the purpose of this
note, the floats I have been soaking in denatured alcholol and mogas. As
reported previously, the vinyl ester resin float has the typical (typical as
far as this test is concerned) dull mat surface going to a frosted white
appearance in some areas. The Kreem coated float also has it's typical
appearance - a shiny surface not different in any way from the day it was
inserted into the alcohol bath.
I have read that when resins cure, they cure in chains of molecules forming
a matt like matrix with areas of lesser cured resin interspersed - much like
glass mat with resin. It is my thought that the alcohol attacks the
interspersed resin which gives the dull non reflective surface and also
explains the multitude of tiny bubbles given off when the float is once
again returned to it's bath and taken up to the test altitude of 14,000 ft
in the bell jar.
It is interesting to note that the liquids in the tubes have darkened in
color as illustrated in the photo. From left Vinyl Ester (VE) in California
auto fuel (6% EOH), VE in 97% EOH, Kreem in 97% EOH, VE in 97% EOH (This
needs explanation, The 2OZ refers to the mixing container I used. In this
case it was one of the small 2 oz. condiment containers commonly used in
restaurants (?) for on the side salad dressings, tarter sauce, etc. I
wondered if the brief contact with the plastic cup would contaminate the
resin - conclusion, yes. The resin for all the other floats was mixed in a
glass container). The far right tube contains auto gas with the JC Whitney
tank sealer, which behaves identically with the Kreem, but as you can see it
is snow white and did not change the color of the fluid bath.
The other photo is of the floats in the 97% EOH. Notice the sheen on the
Kreem and the frosty patches on the VE resin. A fingernail on the VE resin
indicates some softening. These have been soaking in denatured alcohol for
six months and 4 days.
A note on VE resins. There are numerous formulations for various
applications. It is difficult to impossible to find in small quantaties as
we would need for tanks. The material I used is from ACS and comes in an
essentially non labeled can. From their catalog it is listed as a 3M
product and that is as far as it goes.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <davef@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
> Deke,
>
> I will wait and see my self and then look for replacement tanks if they
> fail .
> I would guess that the best replacement would be a drop in plastic tank
> where you could cut open the top of the existing tank and drop in a new
> "fuel cell" with close to came capacity .
>
> Would a tank made of same plastic that gas cans are made of be a suitable
> material ?
> Would be simple fix in my opinion. Drop in attach lines,secure and cover
> and /or paint and done in an afternoon.
>
> But The question is where can you get one of these made ?
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:25 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
>
>>
>> Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic and has far reaching
>> effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks who have been around
>> Kitfoxes for a long time, most of you already know all about the Kreem
>> and
>> the problems we've had with it in our wing tanks. For those of you who
>> are
>> relatively new Kitfoxers, whether builders or buyers, it may pay you to
>> search the archives with key word "Kreem" and read all you can about it
>> because there is a ton of information on it. Sportflight.com has an
>> extensive searchable archive of Kitfox topics, not to mention Matronics.
>> Historically, the early Kitfoxes used to have aluminum tanks, but the
>> flexing of the wings tended to cause them to crack and leak. Not all of
>> them cracked, but often enough that Skystar decided to change to
>> fiberglass
>> tanks. Even these tanks were troublesome because the glass fibers would
>> wick fuel through the tank wall and the tank tended to seep fuel. Again,
>> not all of them, but enough to take action and the action taken was
>> Kreem.
>> Kreem is a fuel tank sealer that is used throughout the fuel tank
>> industry,
>> often in fuel tanks that have rusted inside and have slight leaks. It
>> does
>> a good job if it's applied properly.
>> In the case of the Skystar tanks, they were not properly prepped, meaning
>> the mold release agent wasn't thoroughly cleaned out and the result was
>> that
>> over time the Kreem tended to flake off in sheets, often before the tank
>> was
>> even installed in the wing. These builders were the lucky ones because
>> it
>> was easy to fix the problem with the tank out of the wing. Some poor
>> souls
>> had to recoat the tanks with the tanks installed. Not an easy task.
>> Not all people recoated their tanks and to my knowledge had no problems.
>> I
>> personally did recoat, but my tanks were not yet installed and it wasn't
>> that big of a deal to do it. So far, after six years, no problems.
>> Supposedly the Kreem is resistant to alcohol and it's derivatives, but at
>> that time, there wasn't much of it being used in fuels so it's a wait 'n
>> see
>> thing on that. Personally, I'm not going to make any moves and hope the
>> Kreem does it's job when the Ethanol becomes common place.
>> Currently I don't know what material is being used in the fuel tanks
>> being
>> manufactured for the Kitfoxes, but I hope whatever it is is resistant to
>> Ethanol. Actually, our problems are insignificant to others. The
>> in-ground
>> fuel tanks being used for mass storage in gas stations must be resistant
>> or
>> we're going to have some serious pollution problems in the future.
>> Whatever
>> they're using I would suspect would be the answer.
>> Sorry for the length of this. I just wanted to bring everyone up to
>> speed
>> on this to answer questions I'm sure many have in their mind about their
>> fuel tanks. As far as each individual goes, it's probably best to assess
>> what tanks you have, whether they're coated or not, then make a decision
>> as
>> to whether you need to take action to avert problems down the road or not
>> do
>> anything unless there's a problem. My recommendation would be the
>> latter.
>> Rotationally molded plastic seems to me to be the long term answer, but
>> it's
>> expensive to produce unless in large quantities. I think Rans has been
>> using them for many years.
>> If any of the above is inaccurate, feel free to straighten me up. OK,
>> I'll
>> get down off of my milk crate now.
>> Deke
>> NE Michigan
>> 40f, windy, overcast with snow on the way
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:25 AM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Due to concern about fiberglas tanks and ethanol in CA
>>> car gas, I studied tank sealants last year, from info
>>> on this list, searching the inernet, and contacting
>>> the manufacturers. My conclusion was Kreem was the
>>> one to try to protect fiberglas tanks from ethanol.
>>>
>>> As it is not compatible with all fiberglas tanks, they
>>> recommended checking the tank with MEK and acetone
>>> soaking first. I tried that and alcohol on mine and
>>> it seemed impervious. I decided not to slosh it. In
>>> the time since, I have not noticed any problems with
>>> using car gas.
>>>
>>> There was rumor, maybe from this list, that the Kitfox
>>> tank composition was changed around 1994, which is
>>> around when the wing tanks on mine were made.
>>> Sacramento Sky Ranch sells Kreem.
>>>
>>> John Allen
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Great report Lowell. Thanks. Am I correct that your personal opinion is
that properly applied Kreem is an effective deterrent against damage from
Ethanol?
Deke
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
> A couple of things here.
>
> On the way to the Desert Fox fly-in we overnighted in Overton, NV and our
> host took us on a tour of the local builders hangars. One had a Rans
> rotationally molded tank. I am not entirely clear on this, but when the
> tank comes it is rather hourglass shaped - at normal contour at the ends,
> fore and aft, but collapsed in the middle of the flat surfaces. Their
> instructions call for filling with water to reform the tanks to more or
less
> the countour of the airfoil. These have no internal baffles to help hold
> the shape or to keep the fuel from sloshing. Using them as part of the
> airfoil as the Kitfox fiberglass tanks would be unwise as they will most
> certainly change shape as the amount of fuel in them changes - just like
the
> jugs we use will bulge out when full and return to their manufactured
shape
> when empty.
>
> The Tans tanks hold about 10 gallons or so each and are mounted on top of
> the drag - antidrag tubes. They definitely introduce an entirely new set
of
> issues.
>
> Regarding the Kreem. I checked again this morning for the purpose of this
> note, the floats I have been soaking in denatured alcholol and mogas. As
> reported previously, the vinyl ester resin float has the typical (typical
as
> far as this test is concerned) dull mat surface going to a frosted white
> appearance in some areas. The Kreem coated float also has it's typical
> appearance - a shiny surface not different in any way from the day it was
> inserted into the alcohol bath.
>
> I have read that when resins cure, they cure in chains of molecules
forming
> a matt like matrix with areas of lesser cured resin interspersed - much
like
> glass mat with resin. It is my thought that the alcohol attacks the
> interspersed resin which gives the dull non reflective surface and also
> explains the multitude of tiny bubbles given off when the float is once
> again returned to it's bath and taken up to the test altitude of 14,000 ft
> in the bell jar.
>
> It is interesting to note that the liquids in the tubes have darkened in
> color as illustrated in the photo. From left Vinyl Ester (VE) in
California
> auto fuel (6% EOH), VE in 97% EOH, Kreem in 97% EOH, VE in 97% EOH (This
> needs explanation, The 2OZ refers to the mixing container I used. In
this
> case it was one of the small 2 oz. condiment containers commonly used in
> restaurants (?) for on the side salad dressings, tarter sauce, etc. I
> wondered if the brief contact with the plastic cup would contaminate the
> resin - conclusion, yes. The resin for all the other floats was mixed in
a
> glass container). The far right tube contains auto gas with the JC
Whitney
> tank sealer, which behaves identically with the Kreem, but as you can see
it
> is snow white and did not change the color of the fluid bath.
>
> The other photo is of the floats in the 97% EOH. Notice the sheen on the
> Kreem and the frosty patches on the VE resin. A fingernail on the VE
resin
> indicates some softening. These have been soaking in denatured alcohol
for
> six months and 4 days.
>
> A note on VE resins. There are numerous formulations for various
> applications. It is difficult to impossible to find in small quantaties
as
> we would need for tanks. The material I used is from ACS and comes in an
> essentially non labeled can. From their catalog it is listed as a 3M
> product and that is as far as it goes.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <davef@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
>
> >
> > Deke,
> >
> > I will wait and see my self and then look for replacement tanks if they
> > fail .
> > I would guess that the best replacement would be a drop in plastic tank
> > where you could cut open the top of the existing tank and drop in a new
> > "fuel cell" with close to came capacity .
> >
> > Would a tank made of same plastic that gas cans are made of be a
suitable
> > material ?
> > Would be simple fix in my opinion. Drop in attach lines,secure and cover
> > and /or paint and done in an afternoon.
> >
> > But The question is where can you get one of these made ?
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:25 AM
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
> >
> >
<fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
> >>
> >> Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic and has far reaching
> >> effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks who have been
around
> >> Kitfoxes for a long time, most of you already know all about the Kreem
> >> and
> >> the problems we've had with it in our wing tanks. For those of you who
> >> are
> >> relatively new Kitfoxers, whether builders or buyers, it may pay you to
> >> search the archives with key word "Kreem" and read all you can about it
> >> because there is a ton of information on it. Sportflight.com has an
> >> extensive searchable archive of Kitfox topics, not to mention
Matronics.
> >> Historically, the early Kitfoxes used to have aluminum tanks, but the
> >> flexing of the wings tended to cause them to crack and leak. Not all
of
> >> them cracked, but often enough that Skystar decided to change to
> >> fiberglass
> >> tanks. Even these tanks were troublesome because the glass fibers
would
> >> wick fuel through the tank wall and the tank tended to seep fuel.
Again,
> >> not all of them, but enough to take action and the action taken was
> >> Kreem.
> >> Kreem is a fuel tank sealer that is used throughout the fuel tank
> >> industry,
> >> often in fuel tanks that have rusted inside and have slight leaks. It
> >> does
> >> a good job if it's applied properly.
> >> In the case of the Skystar tanks, they were not properly prepped,
meaning
> >> the mold release agent wasn't thoroughly cleaned out and the result was
> >> that
> >> over time the Kreem tended to flake off in sheets, often before the
tank
> >> was
> >> even installed in the wing. These builders were the lucky ones because
> >> it
> >> was easy to fix the problem with the tank out of the wing. Some poor
> >> souls
> >> had to recoat the tanks with the tanks installed. Not an easy task.
> >> Not all people recoated their tanks and to my knowledge had no
problems.
> >> I
> >> personally did recoat, but my tanks were not yet installed and it
wasn't
> >> that big of a deal to do it. So far, after six years, no problems.
> >> Supposedly the Kreem is resistant to alcohol and it's derivatives, but
at
> >> that time, there wasn't much of it being used in fuels so it's a wait
'n
> >> see
> >> thing on that. Personally, I'm not going to make any moves and hope
the
> >> Kreem does it's job when the Ethanol becomes common place.
> >> Currently I don't know what material is being used in the fuel tanks
> >> being
> >> manufactured for the Kitfoxes, but I hope whatever it is is resistant
to
> >> Ethanol. Actually, our problems are insignificant to others. The
> >> in-ground
> >> fuel tanks being used for mass storage in gas stations must be
resistant
> >> or
> >> we're going to have some serious pollution problems in the future.
> >> Whatever
> >> they're using I would suspect would be the answer.
> >> Sorry for the length of this. I just wanted to bring everyone up to
> >> speed
> >> on this to answer questions I'm sure many have in their mind about
their
> >> fuel tanks. As far as each individual goes, it's probably best to
assess
> >> what tanks you have, whether they're coated or not, then make a
decision
> >> as
> >> to whether you need to take action to avert problems down the road or
not
> >> do
> >> anything unless there's a problem. My recommendation would be the
> >> latter.
> >> Rotationally molded plastic seems to me to be the long term answer, but
> >> it's
> >> expensive to produce unless in large quantities. I think Rans has been
> >> using them for many years.
> >> If any of the above is inaccurate, feel free to straighten me up. OK,
> >> I'll
> >> get down off of my milk crate now.
> >> Deke
> >> NE Michigan
> >> 40f, windy, overcast with snow on the way
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:25 AM
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol - again
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Due to concern about fiberglas tanks and ethanol in CA
> >>> car gas, I studied tank sealants last year, from info
> >>> on this list, searching the inernet, and contacting
> >>> the manufacturers. My conclusion was Kreem was the
> >>> one to try to protect fiberglas tanks from ethanol.
> >>>
> >>> As it is not compatible with all fiberglas tanks, they
> >>> recommended checking the tank with MEK and acetone
> >>> soaking first. I tried that and alcohol on mine and
> >>> it seemed impervious. I decided not to slosh it. In
> >>> the time since, I have not noticed any problems with
> >>> using car gas.
> >>>
> >>> There was rumor, maybe from this list, that the Kitfox
> >>> tank composition was changed around 1994, which is
> >>> around when the wing tanks on mine were made.
> >>> Sacramento Sky Ranch sells Kreem.
> >>>
> >>> John Allen
> >>> Kitfox IV Speedster
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol |
... tagadap, tagadap, tagadap ... Woooow! ... Howdy, partners!
Here is a PDF data sheet for PRC that says that it is resistant to
alcohol. I think that includes ethanol, right?
http://home.online.no/~michel/tmp/PRC.pdf
Please, don't shoot me, I am only the messenger for a guy from the
Jabiru list!
So long! ... ... tagadap, tagadap, tagadap ... (riding in the sunset,
exit the messenger)
Michel
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
Allan,
My starter is similar to an auto starter. When it spins up it throws
the gear fwd to engage the flywheel. Once the engine starts, it throws is
aft again. At least, I think.
I just came home from pulling the engine. Everything lookes good and
clean with no abnormal wear on the flywheel or starter gears. There was no
evidence of metal dust anywhere.
The only thing I have left to do is pull the rear cover off the starter
and inspect the brushes. This is where I stopped until someone can tell me
what to expect when I pull that cover off. I once had a nightmare pulling
the back cover off a tractor starter. As I said before, parts flew
everywhere. Didn't you say that you have had the brushes out of your
starter. Can you tell me if there is a nightmare ahead or are there any
tricks to removing that aft cover?????
I haven't talked to anyone yet. Was waiting to get the engine out and
get a look see. I'd appreciate a quick response since I'm up against the
clock. BTW, the clutch action on my starter gear is nice a free.
Don Smythe
>
> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine has
> started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the engine
> then as the engine goes faster then the
> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've looked
> at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>
> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin- up
> without turning the engine. Once I heard a
> scraping noise.
>
> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>
>
> Allan Arthur
> Kitfox 5, N40AA
> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>
>>
>> Kurt,
>> I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
>> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I had
>> already just about come to that conclusion but your email tipped the
>> scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off and get her
>> back in the air by mid next week.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Don Smythe
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
lowell,
As usual, you get down to some serious testing even to the point of
making those professional little labels. I will sometimes back down and can
even change my mind when solid facts are presented. As Deke implied, are
you getting prepared to say (from your test) that Kreem might be an
acceptable product to protect the fiberglass tank from ethanol. I still
have to ask, what if a small section of the tank gets untreated or a crack
develops later down stream?
I once made some little fairing covers that went on the bottom of my
wings over the bottom tank vents. I used Styrofoam eggs (cut in half) from
the hobby store. Once they were shaped and drilled, I practically soaked
them in West Epoxy and then painted to match the plane. A couple months
later, I noticed one of the looking a little wrinkled. Sure enough, I had a
small gasoline weep and it had eaten all the Styrofoam of the egg and on the
epoxy and paint remained.
Nice testing job,
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey battery WAS: 2nd Flight-High Oil Temps |
Don,
It's been a couple of years since I replaced the brushes, so memory's a
little fuzzy here. I'm pretty sure I recall the brushes being part of the rear
housing, but I don't recall that much of a hassle coming apart or going back
together. Pretty straight forward, just the usual finagling getting the rear
housing on while holding the brushes back.
Greg Gerace
375KL
Mod 2
582
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Fin Height...Model 2 or 3? |
In a message dated 4/2/2007 4:38:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
manliker@uiuc.edu writes:
Trying to determine if my friend has a Model 2 or Model 3 Kitfox. Vertical
fin height was measured as 44=9D. Rudder height was measured as 43.2
5=9D.
Would appreciate replies from those with ready access to their Kitfox and a
tape
measure. Thanks.
Hi Mark I have a 2 and its 44 inches... hmmmmmm maybe he has a 2?
good luck,
Fly today?
Dave
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
Don,
Here is what is inside
http://www.ultralightnews.ca/582electricstart/1.html
You can usually source out the brushes and holders at a automotive shop or
Bob Robertson. They are just Denso parts I would put a new starter drive
in as well and They are pretty well an exclusive item. But if you going to
stater shop take the starter if you do not know what you doing and get the
armature checked as well. Although It most likely ok but might need turning.
Just gotta ask the right people who have done these :)
Simple job. We book 2 hours R & R engine + .5 hour for a starter over haul
Plus parts.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
> Allan,
> My starter is similar to an auto starter. When it spins up it throws
> the gear fwd to engage the flywheel. Once the engine starts, it throws is
> aft again. At least, I think.
> I just came home from pulling the engine. Everything lookes good and
> clean with no abnormal wear on the flywheel or starter gears. There was
> no evidence of metal dust anywhere.
> The only thing I have left to do is pull the rear cover off the starter
> and inspect the brushes. This is where I stopped until someone can tell
> me what to expect when I pull that cover off. I once had a nightmare
> pulling the back cover off a tractor starter. As I said before, parts
> flew everywhere. Didn't you say that you have had the brushes out of your
> starter. Can you tell me if there is a nightmare ahead or are there any
> tricks to removing that aft cover?????
> I haven't talked to anyone yet. Was waiting to get the engine out and
> get a look see. I'd appreciate a quick response since I'm up against the
> clock. BTW, the clutch action on my starter gear is nice a free.
>
> Don Smythe
>
>>
>> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine has
>> started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
>> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
>> engine then as the engine goes faster then the
>> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've looked
>> at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
>> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>>
>> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin- up
>> without turning the engine. Once I heard a
>> scraping noise.
>>
>> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>>
>>
>> Allan Arthur
>> Kitfox 5, N40AA
>> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
>> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Kurt,
>>> I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
>>> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I had
>>> already just about come to that conclusion but your email tipped the
>>> scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off and get her
>>> back in the air by mid next week.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Don Smythe
>>> Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
Dave,
I'm trying to be a little on the rush side. However, I fully understand
that you can only rush so much. My starter is working just fine after
replacing and cleaning all the grounds and hot wires. All I want to do
right now is pull the rear end of the starter and check for any wear and
tear plus the condition of the brushes. I really feel I need to go this
extra mile since pulling the engine ain't fun. My "BIG" concern is, how
many parts fly out of the starter when the rear cover is removed? Are there
any tricks to performing this little task. I've been into a few starters
and realize they can be a bear putting back together. Just looking for some
first hand tips. If I hadn't heard that little grinding noise, I wouldn't
have pulled the engine. However by pulling the engine I've uncovered a
couple little things that did need attention. So, pulling the engine wasn't
a complete waste and might be something that others might consider if it's
been several years since first installation. If I find a problem with the
brushes, that will be the next step. I need to get this thing back 100% by
the first of next week (If possible).
Thanks,
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: <davef@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
> Don,
>
> Here is what is inside
> http://www.ultralightnews.ca/582electricstart/1.html
>
> You can usually source out the brushes and holders at a automotive shop or
> Bob Robertson. They are just Denso parts I would put a new starter drive
> in as well and They are pretty well an exclusive item. But if you going
> to stater shop take the starter if you do not know what you doing and get
> the armature checked as well. Although It most likely ok but might need
> turning.
>
> Just gotta ask the right people who have done these :)
>
> Simple job. We book 2 hours R & R engine + .5 hour for a starter over
> haul Plus parts.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
>
>>
>> Allan,
>> My starter is similar to an auto starter. When it spins up it throws
>> the gear fwd to engage the flywheel. Once the engine starts, it throws
>> is aft again. At least, I think.
>> I just came home from pulling the engine. Everything lookes good and
>> clean with no abnormal wear on the flywheel or starter gears. There was
>> no evidence of metal dust anywhere.
>> The only thing I have left to do is pull the rear cover off the
>> starter and inspect the brushes. This is where I stopped until someone
>> can tell me what to expect when I pull that cover off. I once had a
>> nightmare pulling the back cover off a tractor starter. As I said
>> before, parts flew everywhere. Didn't you say that you have had the
>> brushes out of your starter. Can you tell me if there is a nightmare
>> ahead or are there any tricks to removing that aft cover?????
>> I haven't talked to anyone yet. Was waiting to get the engine out and
>> get a look see. I'd appreciate a quick response since I'm up against the
>> clock. BTW, the clutch action on my starter gear is nice a free.
>>
>> Don Smythe
>>
>>>
>>> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine has
>>> started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
>>> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
>>> engine then as the engine goes faster then the
>>> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've
>>> looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
>>> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>>>
>>> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin- up
>>> without turning the engine. Once I heard a
>>> scraping noise.
>>>
>>> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allan Arthur
>>> Kitfox 5, N40AA
>>> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
>>> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt,
>>>> I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
>>>> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I had
>>>> already just about come to that conclusion but your email tipped the
>>>> scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off and get her
>>>> back in the air by mid next week.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Don Smythe
>>>> Do Not Archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Starter grinding noise |
It is a Bendix style engagement.
Sprague clutches are famous for chattering. It amazes me that it is Sprague
clutches that transfer the power to the rotors of most helicopters....
Without the Sprague clutch autorotation would be impossible. This is what
frightens me about the Airscooter design.... With an engine out you change
form a flying machine to an anchor with the chain let go.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> alnanarthur
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:04 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
>
> <alnanarthur@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Don,
>
> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine
> has started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
> engine then as the engine goes faster then the
> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've
> looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>
> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin-
> up without turning the engine. Once I heard a
> scraping noise.
>
> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>
>
> Allan Arthur
> Kitfox 5, N40AA
> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Deke and Don,
This is a tough question to answer actually. At one time, and Deke is privy
to this, I used the Kreem over an epoxy base on the floats. I guess the
idea was to create a firm base for the Kreem like in our tanks. We had one
instance where the epoxy bubbled under the Kreem causing a mechanical
interference with the float's movement. I had had the low fuel system in my
Model IV for about four years and this was a real heads-up. Since then I
have been looking at a single coating system for the floats. What I want is
the failure mode to be false positives as might happen if the float lost
buoyancy rather than simple non operation like the Ray Volk report when he
told me that the optical cone in his optical low fuel indicatior system
simply melted in the fuel and dropped, as he said, to form a Hershey's Kiss
like mound on the bottom of his header tank.
My feelings are that Kreem is pretty much impervious to auto gas and
alcohol - at least for the 6 months duration of my test and expect the Kreem
to go on for a long time in the future. I am curious how long the Vinyl
Ester will keep the floats floating. My advantage with the floats is that
they are of balsa wood and the Kreem will soak into the outer fibers and
there is no way the Kreem will come off. There is one difficulty that has
arisen when the end grain of the balsa has large pores. The Kreem will not
bridge these even with the three brush coats I give them. I will then mix a
bit of micro balloons with some Kreem and apply it to the pores with a very
small spatula. I give the floats the three coats with a full drying period
in between. I guess the past experience would suggest that the weak spot in
the system is the preparation of the glass surface for Kreem adhesion
coupled with Kreems inability to bridge large voids (Maybe #60 drill size).
That said, I suspect voids in the lay-ups that large to be quite rare to
non existant.
I like Kreem's resistnce to alcohol and Mogas and have had it in my tanks
for nine years - I did re-slosh one tank about three years ago, though.
When building, I had one tank not fit the wing spars - not jigged properly
when closed at the tank shop and as a result I have tanks from two separate
batches. The (good) left tank was the replacement tank, ca. July 1993,
whereas the resloshed tank was in the kit, ca. March 1993.
After re-reading this, I know it doesn't answer all the questions.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
> lowell,
> As usual, you get down to some serious testing even to the point of
> making those professional little labels. I will sometimes back down and
> can even change my mind when solid facts are presented. As Deke implied,
> are you getting prepared to say (from your test) that Kreem might be an
> acceptable product to protect the fiberglass tank from ethanol. I still
> have to ask, what if a small section of the tank gets untreated or a crack
> develops later down stream?
> I once made some little fairing covers that went on the bottom of my
> wings over the bottom tank vents. I used Styrofoam eggs (cut in half)
> from the hobby store. Once they were shaped and drilled, I practically
> soaked them in West Epoxy and then painted to match the plane. A couple
> months later, I noticed one of the looking a little wrinkled. Sure
> enough, I had a small gasoline weep and it had eaten all the Styrofoam of
> the egg and on the epoxy and paint remained.
>
> Nice testing job,
> Don Smythe
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Battery box for Odyssey PC625 battery |
Hi All:
Where can I buy a battery box for a Odyssey PC625 battery?
Thanks!
Jose
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Battery box for Odyssey PC625 battery |
Jose,
I have the Odyssey 680 and I understand it does not require a
battery box. This may be the case of your PC625. Just fabricate a tray
and securing method for the battery to sit on.
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Jose M. Toro
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Battery box for Odyssey PC625 battery
Hi All:
Where can I buy a battery box for a Odyssey PC625 battery?
Thanks!
Jose
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
lowell,
I still have the original low fuel warning you sent me "years" ago. We
went through a couple exchanges on floats but the last one is "still"
working just fine. Actually, it will flash a couple times under different
circumstances such as a bump in the air. The flash is re-assuring that the
unit is still works. When the fuel is actually low, it comes on bright.
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
> Deke and Don,
>
> This is a tough question to answer actually. At one time, and Deke is
> privy to this, I used the Kreem over an epoxy base on the floats. I guess
> the idea was to create a firm base for the Kreem like in our tanks. We
> had one instance where the epoxy bubbled under the Kreem causing a
> mechanical interference with the float's movement. I had had the low fuel
> system in my Model IV for about four years and this was a real heads-up.
> Since then I have been looking at a single coating system for the floats.
> What I want is the failure mode to be false positives as might happen if
> the float lost buoyancy rather than simple non operation like the Ray Volk
> report when he told me that the optical cone in his optical low fuel
> indicatior system simply melted in the fuel and dropped, as he said, to
> form a Hershey's Kiss like mound on the bottom of his header tank.
>
> My feelings are that Kreem is pretty much impervious to auto gas and
> alcohol - at least for the 6 months duration of my test and expect the
> Kreem to go on for a long time in the future. I am curious how long the
> Vinyl Ester will keep the floats floating. My advantage with the floats
> is that they are of balsa wood and the Kreem will soak into the outer
> fibers and there is no way the Kreem will come off. There is one
> difficulty that has arisen when the end grain of the balsa has large
> pores. The Kreem will not bridge these even with the three brush coats I
> give them. I will then mix a bit of micro balloons with some Kreem and
> apply it to the pores with a very small spatula. I give the floats the
> three coats with a full drying period in between. I guess the past
> experience would suggest that the weak spot in the system is the
> preparation of the glass surface for Kreem adhesion coupled with Kreems
> inability to bridge large voids (Maybe #60 drill size). That said, I
> suspect voids in the lay-ups that large to be quite rare to non existant.
>
> I like Kreem's resistnce to alcohol and Mogas and have had it in my tanks
> for nine years - I did re-slosh one tank about three years ago, though.
> When building, I had one tank not fit the wing spars - not jigged properly
> when closed at the tank shop and as a result I have tanks from two
> separate batches. The (good) left tank was the replacement tank, ca. July
> 1993, whereas the resloshed tank was in the kit, ca. March 1993.
>
> After re-reading this, I know it doesn't answer all the questions.
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>
>
>>
>> lowell,
>> As usual, you get down to some serious testing even to the point of
>> making those professional little labels. I will sometimes back down and
>> can even change my mind when solid facts are presented. As Deke implied,
>> are you getting prepared to say (from your test) that Kreem might be an
>> acceptable product to protect the fiberglass tank from ethanol. I still
>> have to ask, what if a small section of the tank gets untreated or a
>> crack develops later down stream?
>> I once made some little fairing covers that went on the bottom of my
>> wings over the bottom tank vents. I used Styrofoam eggs (cut in half)
>> from the hobby store. Once they were shaped and drilled, I practically
>> soaked them in West Epoxy and then painted to match the plane. A couple
>> months later, I noticed one of the looking a little wrinkled. Sure
>> enough, I had a small gasoline weep and it had eaten all the Styrofoam of
>> the egg and on the epoxy and paint remained.
>>
>> Nice testing job,
>> Don Smythe
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Starter grinding noise |
Don,
I would call a Rotax shop to confirm your findings and get parts sent out if
needed over night ...... This is a short week though. Starter drives can
do funny things as well. Just make sure of slides ok on the splines and
thast the clutch inside that drive is working properly. Ask your Rotax guy
but it sounds electrical possibly other than the noise.
Also ask your Rotax shop for proper tightening of starter amd you check with
a feeler gauge and set for 1 mm ( about .040 ) Too tight and that starter
housing will break (300 to 350 $ for those) The Studs go throught a stack
of 2 diferent sizes of o rings.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
> Dave,
>
> I'm trying to be a little on the rush side. However, I fully understand
> that you can only rush so much. My starter is working just fine after
> replacing and cleaning all the grounds and hot wires. All I want to do
> right now is pull the rear end of the starter and check for any wear and
> tear plus the condition of the brushes. I really feel I need to go this
> extra mile since pulling the engine ain't fun. My "BIG" concern is, how
> many parts fly out of the starter when the rear cover is removed? Are
> there any tricks to performing this little task. I've been into a few
> starters and realize they can be a bear putting back together. Just
> looking for some first hand tips. If I hadn't heard that little grinding
> noise, I wouldn't have pulled the engine. However by pulling the engine
> I've uncovered a couple little things that did need attention. So,
> pulling the engine wasn't a complete waste and might be something that
> others might consider if it's been several years since first installation.
> If I find a problem with the brushes, that will be the next step. I need
> to get this thing back 100% by the first of next week (If possible).
>
> Thanks,
> Don Smythe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <davef@cfisher.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>
>
>>
>> Don,
>>
>> Here is what is inside
>> http://www.ultralightnews.ca/582electricstart/1.html
>>
>> You can usually source out the brushes and holders at a automotive shop
>> or Bob Robertson. They are just Denso parts I would put a new starter
>> drive in as well and They are pretty well an exclusive item. But if you
>> going to stater shop take the starter if you do not know what you doing
>> and get the armature checked as well. Although It most likely ok but
>> might need turning.
>>
>> Just gotta ask the right people who have done these :)
>>
>> Simple job. We book 2 hours R & R engine + .5 hour for a starter over
>> haul Plus parts.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starter grinding noise
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Allan,
>>> My starter is similar to an auto starter. When it spins up it throws
>>> the gear fwd to engage the flywheel. Once the engine starts, it throws
>>> is aft again. At least, I think.
>>> I just came home from pulling the engine. Everything lookes good and
>>> clean with no abnormal wear on the flywheel or starter gears. There was
>>> no evidence of metal dust anywhere.
>>> The only thing I have left to do is pull the rear cover off the
>>> starter and inspect the brushes. This is where I stopped until someone
>>> can tell me what to expect when I pull that cover off. I once had a
>>> nightmare pulling the back cover off a tractor starter. As I said
>>> before, parts flew everywhere. Didn't you say that you have had the
>>> brushes out of your starter. Can you tell me if there is a nightmare
>>> ahead or are there any tricks to removing that aft cover?????
>>> I haven't talked to anyone yet. Was waiting to get the engine out
>>> and get a look see. I'd appreciate a quick response since I'm up
>>> against the clock. BTW, the clutch action on my starter gear is nice a
>>> free.
>>>
>>> Don Smythe
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How does your starter disconnect from the crank after the engine has
>>>> started? The 912 has a sprag clutch,
>>>> which is a centrifugal clutch which grabs the crank to start the
>>>> engine then as the engine goes faster then the
>>>> starter it disconnects. This is what failed in my engine. I've
>>>> looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582
>>>> and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.
>>>>
>>>> My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin-
>>>> up without turning the engine. Once I heard a
>>>> scraping noise.
>>>>
>>>> Have you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Allan Arthur
>>>> Kitfox 5, N40AA
>>>> Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade
>>>> Byron Airport, CA (C83) Hanger C8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt,
>>>>> I just hate good opinions don't you? I'm going to head out early
>>>>> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench. I had
>>>>> already just about come to that conclusion but your email tipped the
>>>>> scale. How knows, I just might be able to pull this off and get her
>>>>> back in the air by mid next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Don Smythe
>>>>> Do Not Archive
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Glassfiber tanks and ethanol (Kreem) |
Another keeper for my files Deke,
Thanks. I'll probably be facing this issue sometime
in the future too. This is the kind of stuff that
makes this list so important.
Kurt S.
Do not archive
--- fox5flyer <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> wrote:
> Good morning everyone! This is a very good topic
> and has far reaching
> effects for most of us Kitfoxers. For all you folks
> who have been around
> Kitfoxes for a long time, most of you already know
> all about the Kreem and
> the problems we've had with it in our wing tanks.
> For those of you who are
> relatively new Kitfoxers, whether builders or
> buyers, it may pay you to
> search the archives with key word "Kreem" and read
> all you can about it
> because there is a ton of information on it.
> Sportflight.com
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