---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/21/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:10 AM - My "Florida" trip...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 2. 04:57 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (kirk hull) 3. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (Lynn Matteson) 4. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (Larry Huntley) 5. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (Noel Loveys) 6. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (Guy Buchanan) 7. 06:36 AM - Re: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods (Guy Buchanan) 8. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (Noel Loveys) 9. 06:49 AM - Re: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods (Tom Jones) 10. 07:39 AM - Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E (Mike) 11. 07:53 AM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (Michel Verheughe) 12. 09:13 AM - Re: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E (kurt schrader) 13. 10:21 AM - Re: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods (Guy Buchanan) 14. 10:46 AM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (dcsfoto) 15. 10:46 AM - Re: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 16. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: cabin doors (kirk hull) 17. 11:57 AM - Re: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods (Dacha) 18. 12:26 PM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 19. 02:21 PM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (Michel Verheughe) 20. 06:22 PM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 21. 10:44 PM - Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:11 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic Off topic, other than telling how GREAT a plane the Kitfox is in saving one's bacon during less-than-perfect flying conditions. This is a description of my recent attempt to fly to the Sun 'n' Fun Fly-in, held in Lakeland, Florida. A friend, Nihl, was flying in his own plane, a very nice 1963 Cessna 150. I was flying my own Kitfox Model IV Speedster with a Jabiru 2200 engine for power. We left the Napoleon, MI airport (3NP), at 7:30 am local time, last Monday, and flew the 230 statute miles to Sporty's Pilot Shop at Batavia, OH, in 96 minutes. Along the way I was showing 108mph Indicated airspeed, while my GPS was showing 177mph ground speed...we had a 70 mph tailwind! Nearing Dayton, Ohio's airspace, Nihl called to notify ATC that we wished to transit their airspace, saying we were a flight of two. The controller could not locate a flight of two, and we discovered that Nihl's transponder did not transmit. I was asked to squawk 0346, which I did and the controller told us that my transponder worked, but his did not. Still not being real comfortable with use of the radio, I was letting Nihl handle the radio chores, while I became the designated transponder operator. ( I was handling my own "self-announce" at the untowered airports) Landing at Sporty's was a bit tricky, as the wind was almost a direct crosswind, but both planes landed ok. We spent about an hour at Sporty's, Nihl buying charts and fuel...I did not need fuel. During our stopover at Sporty's, the wind increased, and became more of a direct crosswind, and I was nervous about taking off using the regular runway. I asked for permission to use what I found out was called "high-speed turnoffs" for part of my takeoff "runway". This was granted, so I taxied onto the normal taxiway, turned around, and started out, using about 50 feet of the normal taxiway, turning left onto the high-speed turnoff which is at 45 degrees to the taxiway and the main runway, and crossing the main runway, I lifted off with an approximately 45 degree crosswind. This worked out quite well for me. Nihl, with his heavier plane, used the runway with no problems. My flight instructor had told me before I left that since I was used to following section lines as part of my Michigan-based VFR navigation procedures, that I would not find a recognizable section line in Kentucky, and he was right. Suddenly there were no more straight lines to follow, just curves, and hills and wandering rivers. I had my chart and my GPS, so navigation was no problem. Nihl called and told me we were clear to fly at 5500 feet elevation, which became too bumpy, so I asked him to ask for permission to go to 7500, which was granted. Minutes later, he called to say "Lynn, go to 5500 feet IMMEDIATELY!" I did, and it turned out traffic was the reason for the command. A few minutes later the traffic was gone...whatever it was...and we were cleared to go back up to 7500. It was getting very bumpy, and I could see puffy clouds coming up, and avoided then, but could feel the bumps as they passed by. Seeing a bank of clouds that I wanted to avoid, I climbed even higher...we were no longer under the jurisdiction of the ATC by this time. I was getting closer to the ridge of clouds, and was at 9500 feet, close to my Sport Pilot-mandated ceiling of 10,000 feet, and could see that I was not going to make it over the clouds even if I bent the rules "for safety", so I decided to head down. All this last 10 minutes or so, the turbulence was getting greater, and as I descended, I was getting hammered, and Nihl came on the radio and said he was going to land, pointing out an airport below. I had the airport in sight, and was thinking the same thing. I was well into the yellow band of my airspeed indicator, and had to flatten out the descent to keep the speed down into the green, even though this meant spending more time getting bounced around. At one point I noticed that my GPS had lost power, due to the cigar lighter power supply becoming loose due to the vibration, bouncing, bumping, and slamming around that the plane was getting. I had to circle the field to try and find the windsock, and saw that it was straight out and at a 90 degree angle to the left side of the runway, and I saw no other choices for landing. I came in with left wing down as much as I could try to hold it there, and the plane was really getting tossed. The left wheel made contact, bounced a bit, and the left wing came up, slamming the right wheel down with the plane starting to point to the left. I got lucky as hell that the plane didn't groundloop, or cartwheel or anything else. I got stopped pointing into the wind at the left side of the runway, completed the rest of the turn to the left and back taxied off at the first turnoff and pulled the plane up to a closed hangar for shelter from the wind. I got out to assess the damage, and found that the right wheel pant was slightly damaged due to the tire being flexed sideways (during that hard hit) and grabbing the fairing and causing the fairing to be pulled into and bent upwards, inside the pant, and dragging on the tire. I unscrewed the fairing and left it off and tied the plane down with help from a guy at the airport. During this time, Nihl was trying to get down, and on his third attempt was successful. We later discovered that we had landed at Scott County Airport (SCX), near Oneida, Tennessee. More later on what a great facility, and great people they have down there. In retrospect, I'm surprised that the tire didn't roll off the rim. I have tubeless tires with no tubes, and even though there are good deep bead retention grooves in the wheels, I'm tempted to put tubes in them if for nothing other than making it easier....if I can find tubes with bent stems....to check tire pressure. Next: Staying at the airport, making decisions, and getting back. DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:33 AM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I did not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Ok now I have the pictures. The installation was done with two small pieces of angle. I used some metal (about .032") which I bent into angle. The angle is is held to the cross tube behind the pilot and to the frame of the back of the door. I put the strut on the back of the door because I fly floats and have to enter from the front. The angle extrusions are slotted With a Dremel tool right at the angle to allow them to be mounted on the tubes with small gear clamps. Every thing is out in the open where it is easy to inspect. Surprisingly none of the four gear clamps have loosened at all. The brackets have a hole drilled in them which the ball end of the two ball and socket ends is bolted through. The height of the bracket on the door is important. It should be higher than the distance of the lower bracket form the door closed position to give an over centre positive close to the door when the door is pulled down. The position of the door bracket is set to allow an almost a full closure of the strut while closing the door. This strut is 9 in. long, 10.5 in over all and has the ball and socket joints with the balls at both ends. I got this strut from a local salvage yard and have no idea what it came out of. I'm sure you can find the complete unit at an automotive supply shop if you don't have a salvage yard you can browse. The next picture is a close up of the bracket on the cross tube. It strut ball is mounted far enough into the plane so as not to interfere with the operation of the door. I put this on my door as occasionally I like to fly and always taxi with the door open. If the salvage yard had two of these struts I would have installed both of them. It has worked well for the past year or so so I guess the next thing to do is paint the brackets to make them look as if they belonged there. I'm far from a fortune teller but I do see another trip to the salvage yard for me in the near future. Removing the door is easy as there is a little metal clip that holds the socket of the strut over the ball. I just have to make sure to keep the clips with the strut. Clear as Mud?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xfire > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:55 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors > > > > > [quote="Float Flyr"]I put one on the pilot side without > drilling any holes.... I'll send a couple of pictures tomorrow. > > > > Noel > > > > -- > > > Noel, can you please send the pics to me also > > Thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107902#107902 > > > ========== > Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; available href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:45 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors I've opened mine in flight , but only at or about 50mph. Lynn p.s. The installation of the struts is a lot cleaner if using the pre- made parts probably available from John McBean. My parts came with my kit. The mounting "angles" are actually a piece of tubing with the mounting flange welded on (you can make these if you can weld), then cut lengthwise. The roundness of the tubing gives a better contact with the door frame. On Apr 21, 2007, at 7:57 AM, kirk hull wrote: > My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I > did not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of > people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:42 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors MessageMy 4 Has no struts,but the doors fly in the up position when open in flight. It is a long reach over nothing to reach out and close the left one ,but if you slip a bit it will come down and close by itself. You just have to latch it. I usually don't open it til after takeoff as the wheels throw stuff on the glass. I guess it wouldn't make any difference if you are flying off dry pavement. Larry Huntley 4-1200 ----- Original Message ----- From: kirk hull To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:57 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I did not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:34 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Ok now I have the pictures. The installation was done with two small pieces of angle. I used some metal (about .032") which I bent into angle. The angle is is held to the cross tube behind the pilot and to the frame of the back of the door. I put the strut on the back of the door because I fly floats and have to enter from the front. The angle extrusions are slotted With a Dremel tool right at the angle to allow them to be mounted on the tubes with small gear clamps. Every thing is out in the open where it is easy to inspect. Surprisingly none of the four gear clamps have loosened at all. The brackets have a hole drilled in them which the ball end of the two ball and socket ends is bolted through. The height of the bracket on the door is important. It should be higher than the distance of the lower bracket form the door closed position to give an over centre positive close to the door when the door is pulled down. The position of the door bracket is set to allow an almost a full closure of the strut while closing the door. This strut is 9 in. long, 10.5 in over all and has the ball and socket joints with the balls at both ends. I got this strut from a local salvage yard and have no idea what it came out of. I'm sure you can find the complete unit at an automotive supply shop if you don't have a salvage yard you can browse. The next picture is a close up of the bracket on the cross tube. It strut ball is mounted far enough into the plane so as not to interfere with the operation of the door. I put this on my door as occasionally I like to fly and always taxi with the door open. If the salvage yard had two of these struts I would have installed both of them. It has worked well for the past year or so so I guess the next thing to do is paint the brackets to make them look as if they belonged there. I'm far from a fortune teller but I do see another trip to the salvage yard for me in the near future. Removing the door is easy as there is a little metal clip that holds the socket of the strut over the ball. I just have to make sure to keep the clips with the strut. Clear as Mud?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xfire > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:55 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors > > > > > [quote="Float Flyr"]I put one on the pilot side without > drilling any holes.... I'll send a couple of pictures tomorrow. > > > > Noel > > > > -- > > > Noel, can you please send the pics to me also > > Thanks > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107902#107902 > > > > > > > > ========== > Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; available href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 4/19/2007 5:56 PM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:45 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Some guys have strutted the doors from the front the hose clamps would have to be placed through between the glass and the frame. Because the installation isn't permanent you can move from front to back in a few minutes. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GONER752@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Noel, Thanks for posting the pic's. I've been wanting to strut the doors, but really couldn't imagine any mounts pop riveted to tubing lasting against the forces of the struts.Good job.These are keepers for me. Greg G 375KL Mod 2 582 _____ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:28 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors At 04:57 AM 4/21/2007, you wrote: >My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I did >not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of >people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. I open mine in flight. I don't like distractions during takeoff. I have the struts aft so they vibrate a little when open above 65 mph. They are bubble doors and generate quite a bit of lift. You have to be careful opening them lest they rip out of your hands and you have to pull hard to close them. It's a great view, though! Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:28 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods At 08:39 PM 4/20/2007, you wrote: >Are there any special tricks to removing the wings, or is it just >finding enough people to hold it up while I remove the bolts. I used a 6' step ladder to support the outboard end. I then disconnected the lower strut bolt and half pulled the upper spar bolts. I then had someone hold the outboard end while I pulled the spar bolts and we carried the wing, with strut, to a pair of waiting padded sawhorses. I then disassembled the strut, first supporting the free end of the strut from the ceiling. I was able to do most of the work myself. My wife and I moved the wing, though she was a little hard pressed at the outboard end. Obviously all fuel and electrical lines should be disconnected, spooled, tie-wrapped, and free. If you anticipate trouble with these have another person ready to free them. The wing isn't heavy, but you won't want to be standing around all day trying to do a military press with one hand while you sort things out with the other. Obviously you have to be careful what you grab and how you support, as the skin is thin and the ribs are wood. And don't let the tip move vertically with the spar pins fully in. Half in and the tip can move a little vertically. Oh, and don't poke the fuselage skin with the inboard end of the strut. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:29 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors I guess that depends on what you are doing. My model III-A cruises something less than 90 mph. If I want to take a picture or something I will slow that down to below 70 and open the door with no problem. At cruise it gets a bit cold and that's enough reason to keep the doors closed. On the water I think it's a good idea to at least unlatch the door....Just in case. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I did not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Ok now I have the pictures. The installation was done with two small pieces of angle. I used some metal (about .032") which I bent into angle. The angle is is held to the cross tube behind the pilot and to the frame of the back of the door. I put the strut on the back of the door because I fly floats and have to enter from the front. The angle extrusions are slotted With a Dremel tool right at the angle to allow them to be mounted on the tubes with small gear clamps. Every thing is out in the open where it is easy to inspect. Surprisingly none of the four gear clamps have loosened at all. The brackets have a hole drilled in them which the ball end of the two ball and socket ends is bolted through. The height of the bracket on the door is important. It should be higher than the distance of the lower bracket form the door closed position to give an over centre positive close to the door when the door is pulled down. The position of the door bracket is set to allow an almost a full closure of the strut while closing the door. This strut is 9 in. long, 10.5 in over all and has the ball and socket joints with the balls at both ends. I got this strut from a local salvage yard and have no idea what it came out of. I'm sure you can find the complete unit at an automotive supply shop if you don't have a salvage yard you can browse. The next picture is a close up of the bracket on the cross tube. It strut ball is mounted far enough into the plane so as not to interfere with the operation of the door. I put this on my door as occasionally I like to fly and always taxi with the door open. If the salvage yard had two of these struts I would have installed both of them. It has worked well for the past year or so so I guess the next thing to do is paint the brackets to make them look as if they belonged there. I'm far from a fortune teller but I do see another trip to the salvage yard for me in the near future. Removing the door is easy as there is a little metal clip that holds the socket of the strut over the ball. I just have to make sure to keep the clips with the strut. Clear as Mud?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xfire > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:55 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors > > > > > [quote="Float Flyr"]I put one on the pilot side without > drilling any holes.... I'll send a couple of pictures tomorrow. > > > > Noel > > > > -- > > > Noel, can you please send the pics to me also > > Thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107902#107902 > > > ========== > Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; available href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:20 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods From: "Tom Jones" Jim, one helper is enough and a must if you haven't installed or removed kitfox wings before. When you start pulling the wing attch bolts and pins a wing can swing back or foreward unexpectidly and you will be stuck there holding it untill someone comes along to help you. Or if you can yell loud enough for someone in the house to hear you. It is easiest if you raise the tail to level the fuselage. Have your helper hold the wing tip. It is not heavy but a stick or board cut to the right length to support the tip helps a lot. Just make sure your helper knows to hold on to the wing tip and keep it in that position until you have all the bolts out and you have hold of the wing at the root then slide it away and off to the safe storage rack or whatever you will store the wing on. Tom Jones, classic 4 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108281#108281 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:21 AM PST US From: Mike Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E Does anyone have experience with the HKS 700E engine, particularly on a KitFox Model II? I have been researching the changeover, as the KitFox I am rebuilding had a 532 in it, which appears to be a quite outdated design, plus suffered a serious prop strike. I would want to pull the 532 apart for visual and mechanical inspection and magnaflux if I decide to use it. However, it appears to be a poorer design than the 582 (single ignition, coil and points, etc). On the other hand, I have it! The HKS seems to be a very good engine for the Model II at a gross weight of 950 lbs, and the engine has a very good reputation in the ultralight community. I personally like four cycle engines over two cycle, because of lower maintenance costs and better reliability. Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone yet, other than dealers, who has experience with this conversion. Anyone have any experience? Can you offer suggestions as to where I might find someone who has been thru the conversion? Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:41 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic Thanks for the PIREP, Lynn. I love reading that stuff and you're good at writing too. It feels like being there. Keep your reports coming in. On Apr 21, 2007, at 1:12 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > Minutes later, he called to say "Lynn, go to 5500 feet IMMEDIATELY!" Here I get a bit puzzled. When you fly formation, don't you both listen to the same ATC frequency? Over here, we fly together, one leading, talking and squawking and the other one remaining silent of the ATC frequency. Then one or the other may request to change for a few minutes to a Unicom frequency to chat a bit, then back to the ATC. The main point here is that ATC knows at any time on which frequency you are. This is especially a must when you fly with a flight plan. > had to flatten out the descent to keep the speed down into the green, > even though this meant spending more time getting bounced around. Do you side-slip to increase your ROD without gaining speed? Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:20 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E If anyone is going to Sun&Fun, there was a model I or II in the ultralight area with an HKS. You might find the owner and pass on some info. Unfortunately I was only there for one day and didn't know the info was needed. Kurt S. --- Mike wrote: >........The HKS seems to be a very good engine for > the Model II at a gross weight of 950 lbs, and the > engine has a very > good reputation in the ultralight community. I > personally like four > cycle engines over two cycle, because of lower > maintenance costs and better reliability. > > Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone yet, other > than dealers, who > has experience with this conversion. Anyone have > any experience? > Can you offer suggestions as to where I might find > someone who has > been thru the conversion? > > Mike __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:10 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods At 08:39 PM 4/20/2007, you wrote: >Are there any special tricks to removing the wings, or is it just >finding enough people to hold it up while I remove the bolts. I forgot to add, though someone else already did, that it's much easier if you put the tail on a sawhorse first so the plane's level. Sorry, Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:46 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: My "Florida" trip...off topic From: "dcsfoto" enjoyed the report great job Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108326#108326 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:49 AM PST US From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E There is a Mike Ricketts on either this list or the Yahoo Avid list that has a HKS in either a Kitfox or an Avid if I'm not mistaken. Thanks, Jim >From: Mike >To: Kitfox Forum >Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 vs HKS 700E >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:38:40 -0400 > >Does anyone have experience with the HKS 700E engine, particularly on a >KitFox Model II? I have been researching the changeover, as the KitFox I >am rebuilding had a 532 in it, which appears to be a quite outdated >design, plus suffered a serious prop strike. I would want to pull the 532 >apart for visual and mechanical inspection and magnaflux if I decide to >use it. However, it appears to be a poorer design than the 582 (single >ignition, coil and points, etc). On the other hand, I have it! The HKS >seems to be a very good engine for the Model II at a gross weight of 950 >lbs, and the engine has a very good reputation in the ultralight >community. I personally like four cycle engines over two cycle, because >of lower maintenance costs and better reliability. > >Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone yet, other than dealers, who has >experience with this conversion. Anyone have any experience? Can you >offer suggestions as to where I might find someone who has been thru the >conversion? > >Mike > >mclayton@rochester.rr.com >Mobile: 585-737-5506 >8 Adams Trail >Spencerport, NY 14559 > > _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:44 AM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Well I guess on the next warm day I will just have to slow it down a little bit and open the doors. Thanks for the input _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 6:57 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors My classic 4 came with the strut mounts as part of the kit but I did not know it was safe to open the doors in flight. Do a lot of people open them in flight or just leave them open when taking off. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors Ok now I have the pictures. The installation was done with two small pieces of angle. I used some metal (about .032") which I bent into angle. The angle is is held to the cross tube behind the pilot and to the frame of the back of the door. I put the strut on the back of the door because I fly floats and have to enter from the front. The angle extrusions are slotted With a Dremel tool right at the angle to allow them to be mounted on the tubes with small gear clamps. Every thing is out in the open where it is easy to inspect. Surprisingly none of the four gear clamps have loosened at all. The brackets have a hole drilled in them which the ball end of the two ball and socket ends is bolted through. The height of the bracket on the door is important. It should be higher than the distance of the lower bracket form the door closed position to give an over centre positive close to the door when the door is pulled down. The position of the door bracket is set to allow an almost a full closure of the strut while closing the door. This strut is 9 in. long, 10.5 in over all and has the ball and socket joints with the balls at both ends. I got this strut from a local salvage yard and have no idea what it came out of. I'm sure you can find the complete unit at an automotive supply shop if you don't have a salvage yard you can browse. The next picture is a close up of the bracket on the cross tube. It strut ball is mounted far enough into the plane so as not to interfere with the operation of the door. I put this on my door as occasionally I like to fly and always taxi with the door open. If the salvage yard had two of these struts I would have installed both of them. It has worked well for the past year or so so I guess the next thing to do is paint the brackets to make them look as if they belonged there. I'm far from a fortune teller but I do see another trip to the salvage yard for me in the near future. Removing the door is easy as there is a little metal clip that holds the socket of the strut over the ball. I just have to make sure to keep the clips with the strut. Clear as Mud?? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xfire > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:55 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: cabin doors > > > > > [quote="Float Flyr"]I put one on the pilot side without > drilling any holes.... I'll send a couple of pictures tomorrow. > > > > Noel > > > > -- > > > Noel, can you please send the pics to me also > > Thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107902#107902 > > > ========== > Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; available href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:25 AM PST US From: "Dacha" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV wing modsClassic IV wing mods Not much rocket science here. Pulled the wings off of a Kitfox4. Just had to remove fuel lines,elect. wires and such. First put a ladder or such to hold the wings in somewhat a safe position. Then remove the jury strut, making sure that fuel tanks are empty for weight. Then the bolts on the wing spar. Done deal. LeRoy ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:08 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic I'm very new to the formation flying bit, and still don't have my "radio endorsement", so I was letting the other flier handle the radio chores. I would have preferred to just go around the areas that required radio contact...at least until I have confidence in my radio manners and expertise. We were flying without flight plan. There was no way in hades that I was going to slip at that altitude, or under those turbulent conditions. At least, I don't THINK that it would be safe. Maybe someone could enlighten me. I'm going to run the whole scenario past my flight instructor, but he's out of town. Thinking back on it, the other flier was good on the radio, but a bit off when it came to navigation. His GPS was not the moving map variety, and because I was following him, and trying to coax him back onto our heading, we got off-track by a bunch. No excuses, but I'd rather have been the one heading up the mission, because I had the more up-to-date GPS, and would have steered us around the busy airspaces, and away from radio talk. Using the charts was problematic at best in Kentucky, because of the wide separation between towns, landmarks, whatever, and also the lack of good N-S and E-W section lines. I was relying on my GPS to guide me, and even though I had my chart marked, I hadn't written down a list of landmarks to guide me visually. I made a big mistake in not doing that. When the turbulence became a factor, it didn't matter where we were, because the chart was the last thing on my mind, because I saw the airport below. If my GPS would have crapped out before it did, and I had no idea where I was, then reverting back to the chart would have been the only option, or steering over to I-75 (a divided Interstate highway), which was also in view. Before I go on another trip, I'll learn more about weather, and what conditions cause what, and be better prepared to observe what I'm getting into, and make a decision earlier as to when to go down, or stay down 'til another day, or 'til conditions improve. Lynn do not archive On Apr 21, 2007, at 10:53 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > Thanks for the PIREP, Lynn. I love reading that stuff and you're > good at writing too. It feels like being there. Keep your reports > coming in. > > On Apr 21, 2007, at 1:12 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> Minutes later, he called to say "Lynn, go to 5500 feet IMMEDIATELY!" > > Here I get a bit puzzled. When you fly formation, don't you both > listen to the same ATC frequency? Over here, we fly together, one > leading, talking and squawking and the other one remaining silent > of the ATC frequency. Then one or the other may request to change > for a few minutes to a Unicom frequency to chat a bit, then back to > the ATC. The main point here is that ATC knows at any time on which > frequency you are. This is especially a must when you fly with a > flight plan. > >> had to flatten out the descent to keep the speed down into the >> green, even though this meant spending more time getting bounced >> around. > > Do you side-slip to increase your ROD without gaining speed? > > Cheers, > Michel > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:04 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic On Apr 21, 2007, at 9:25 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > I'm very new to the formation flying bit, and still don't have my > "radio endorsement", so I was letting the other flier handle the radio > chores. If I understand correctly, Lynn, you were listening to a unicom frequency while your friend was on the ATC frequency. I think it is better that you both are on the same frequency. Then you would both had received the instruction to descend in order to avoid another traffic. Of course, while on the ATC frequency you can't talk to the other plane but you can e.g. ask ATC to change frequency to unicom. At that moment, your friend will also know that he must change frequency because you wish to talk to him. In any case, and for a reason of safety, anyone can break international radio rules if it is to prevent a fatal accident. This is valid for maritime, aviation and ham radio. As seen from ATC point of view, it is also important that the controller knows at any moment on which frequency you are. If you are a flight of two, or more, he or she would expect to have you both on the same frequency. Since you were warned of a meeting traffic, it meant that you were under radar coverage and even if you were in a G zone, the controller will prefer to give you traffic information rather than seeing a mid-air crash and a lot of paper work for him/her to do. At least, that's my experience in Europe. > There was no way in hades that I was going to slip at that altitude, > or under those turbulent conditions. I understand. Maybe I would also hesitate to do it. Was it very bad? Thermal or mechanic turbulence? Were you in a mountainous region? But I think side slipping is an important technique which I practice very often. Today, to warm up my engine for the oil change at the 200 hours of my Jabiru, I went for a few traffic pattern where each one was very high on final and I side slipped both ways to come fast to land on the mark. Last time was with the engine off. The reason is: If I loose power one day, and see a nice patch of grass to land on, I may be too low to do a 360 and fast sink rate will be my only alternative not to overshoot the field. Beside that, side slipping makes me feel I have control over the plane. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:59 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic You understand correctly, Michel...me on unicom, he on ATC freq. Later, on the return trip, I did tune into ATC frequency, so I could hear first-hand the directions. At one point I had lost sight of the other plane, but I was on ATC freq., when I heard my friend call for clearance for transit through their airspace. It was granted. He was well ahead of me judging from his report of being 3 miles out. I was 5 miles out. We were flying against a 20 mph headwind, and it seemed like forever for me to get to the airport. When I did get there, I made a call, stating that my friend called for clearance, but had neglected to say a flight of two. I told him where I was, altitude, etc., and he cleared me too. Even though there was no traffic (the controller said so), I felt better about making the call....got me over the mike fright, too. Since that call, I've either monitored the ATC freq., or made my own calls. The day following our return, we flew into Jackson, MI (JXN) airport, class D, and I made my own call. That was my first solo landing at a towered airport, and, explaining my "greenness" on the radio the controller said I was "doing fine". Maybe now my instructor will sign my radio endorsement...we'll see. As to the turbulence, I'm not sure whether it was thermal or mechanical...how do you tell? We were on the edge of a tapering off mountain range, as the range gained altitude toward the east, and we were heading south, skirting the range to the west. The airport elevation was 1545 feet, and the nearby ridges are at about 3400-3500 feet, within 20 miles. There is a windmill farm on those ridges...studying the chart now tells me something that I should have read back then. Telling other pilots about where we were, elicits the response of "you should've gone further west." And had we been flying the chart that I marked, we would have been 20 miles further west. Hard to say if 20 miles would have been more comfortable, but looking at the contours, the terrain would have been much flatter, and this seems to me now to have been a better route...hindsight and all that. Was the turbulence bad? Did I mention that my friend's right seat came out of it's moorings? I don't think I did. He said the seat came over and hit him, and that stuff on the seat was flying about the cockpit. He later said he probably didn't have the belt tightened enough. I didn't look at his plane and how the seat was held in, but I will. I practice slips a lot, because I have some fields that have trees on both ends with 1700-2600 feet runway between...mine is 1700 with trees at the normal approach end. I need to practice slips with slowing the plane with up elevator. I'm usually at full (20) flaps when I slip. I'm better slipping with left wing down, and need to do more right slips, because I don't like to do them. Lynn do not archive On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:20 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > On Apr 21, 2007, at 9:25 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> I'm very new to the formation flying bit, and still don't have my >> "radio endorsement", so I was letting the other flier handle the >> radio chores. > > If I understand correctly, Lynn, you were listening to a unicom > frequency while your friend was on the ATC frequency. I think it is > better that you both are on the same frequency. Then you would both > had received the instruction to descend in order to avoid another > traffic. Of course, while on the ATC frequency you can't talk to > the other plane but you can e.g. ask ATC to change frequency to > unicom. At that moment, your friend will also know that he must > change frequency because you wish to talk to him. In any case, and > for a reason of safety, anyone can break international radio rules > if it is to prevent a fatal accident. This is valid for maritime, > aviation and ham radio. > As seen from ATC point of view, it is also important that the > controller knows at any moment on which frequency you are. If you > are a flight of two, or more, he or she would expect to have you > both on the same frequency. Since you were warned of a meeting > traffic, it meant that you were under radar coverage and even if > you were in a G zone, the controller will prefer to give you > traffic information rather than seeing a mid-air crash and a lot of > paper work for him/her to do. > At least, that's my experience in Europe. > >> There was no way in hades that I was going to slip at that >> altitude, or under those turbulent conditions. > > I understand. Maybe I would also hesitate to do it. Was it very > bad? Thermal or mechanic turbulence? Were you in a mountainous > region? But I think side slipping is an important technique which I > practice very often. Today, to warm up my engine for the oil change > at the 200 hours of my Jabiru, I went for a few traffic pattern > where each one was very high on final and I side slipped both ways > to come fast to land on the mark. Last time was with the engine > off. The reason is: If I loose power one day, and see a nice patch > of grass to land on, I may be too low to do a 360 and fast sink > rate will be my only alternative not to overshoot the field. Beside > that, side slipping makes me feel I have control over the plane. > > Cheers, > Michel > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:40 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My "Florida" trip...off topic At 12:25 PM 4/21/2007, you wrote: >I would have preferred to just go around the areas that >required radio contact...at least until I have confidence in my radio >manners and expertise. Best thing I ever did for radio work was buy and use the COMM-1 PC software for VFR flight. I still use it to brush up before a big cross-country. I also do preparatory cross countries before big cross countries. In the preparatory I do everything I would do on the long one, but do it all in one hour. >There was no way in hades that I was going to slip at that altitude, >or under those turbulent conditions. A slip would not be unsafe if you were flying at less than maneuvering speed, Va, which I assume you were doing, given the conditions. >Using the charts was problematic >at best in Kentucky, because of the wide separation between towns, >landmarks, whatever, and also the lack of good N-S and E-W section >lines. I had a good friend teach me pilotage in the wilds of Wyoming. It is amazing what you can identify on a chart and how you can cross-correlate that information to find your location. If you ever get a chance to do a mountain check-out, make sure the instructor helps you with this. You can often quite easily identify mountain geometry, stream and dry beds, lakes, and man-made objects sufficient to identify your location. When I flew to Ft. Worth from San Diego I used pilotage exclusively until I got to west Texas, where it became so flat I started to rely more on the GPS. Even then I kept a close track on where I was on the chart and made it a game to identify landmarks and locate them and myself. >Before I go on another trip, I'll learn more about weather, and what >conditions cause what, and be better prepared to observe what I'm >getting into, and make a decision earlier as to when to go down, or >stay down 'til another day, or 'til conditions improve. I can't remember, did you get a full weather briefing from Flight Service before departure? If so, did they mention a turbulence AIRMET? Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.