Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:36 AM - Re: Irons for covering (Barry West)
2. 04:27 AM - Re: alcoholic gas tanks (Bob)
3. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: alcoholic gas tanks ()
4. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: alcoholic gas tanks (Guy Buchanan)
5. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: alcoholic gas tanks (jdmcbean)
6. 08:31 AM - alcoholic gas tanks-structural? (fox5flyer)
7. 09:07 AM - Plastic/Poly tanks (Don Smythe)
8. 09:33 AM - Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? (Rexinator)
9. 09:40 AM - Re: Plastic/Poly tanks (xfire)
10. 11:03 AM - signature ()
11. 11:43 AM - SIGNATURE ()
12. 01:44 PM - 582 Oil Injection tank (Don Smythe)
13. 02:23 PM - Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? (Lowell Fitt)
14. 02:29 PM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 04/25/07 (charles cook)
15. 02:54 PM - Fox With A Vair (Norm)
16. 03:02 PM - Re: tire valve stem extentions for wheel pants? (Lynn Matteson)
17. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? ()
18. 06:45 PM - Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? (Bob)
19. 07:26 PM - Need wheel(s) for Model IV (Lynn Matteson)
20. 08:32 PM - Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? (Guy Buchanan)
21. 11:10 PM - Check your Gear legs (John Allen)
22. 11:10 PM - Check your Gear legs (John Allen)
23. 11:16 PM - Hand Propping Aeronca 7AC & Brakes - off topic (John Allen)
24. 11:37 PM - Re: Check your Gear legs (xfire)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Irons for covering |
OK, I have to throw this in. I drilled a hole in the small iron that
receives a precision laboratory thermometer with a dial indicator. The
hole is more than an inch deep. This way, I have a constant reading of the
temperature. I believe this could be done with the household iron. Based
on my experience, most of these thermostats are terribly inaccurate and
inconsistent. I tried several before finding one that is nearly consistent.
It is a Sunbeam. I calibrated it by the Polyfiber instructions.
N880BW has been flying for 6 years now and has 500 hours on it and the
fabric is holding up well.
Barry West. Model IV, 1200
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks |
As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new tanks will
do that job?
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109327#109327
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks |
Bob, When I pulled the factory-installed tanks (Sky Star '94) out of a Series 5
factory-built wing, I noticed that 90% of the adhesive designed to bond the tank
to the spars was cured without any contact with the spar. This was because
of the large gap between the tank's front and rear surfaces and the spar surfaces.
With almost no adhesive bond, how strong could that be? It was mostly just
the small tank flanges glued to the top surface of the spar (most of which
was also loose). The fabric is glued down to the top of the tank, but how strong
could that be? Anyway, the new tanks connect with small aluminum tubes connected
between the spars, plywood over and under the tanks - glued all the way
around, and expanding foam filling the voids. I've built houses, surfboards, worked
on boat construction, etc. And all I can say is that this APPEARS that it
will be at least as strong as what was there. And that's just an opinion, I'm
not an aero engineer. As you say, info on the net is worth what you pay. But
ours is an experimental hobby by nature. Steve of "WingTanks.com" says that other
experimentals are flying with this type of tank and similar wing construction
- I believe he said "Just Aircraft" are using this type of tank.
John Sandt / Series 7 / tri-gear / Corvair / Ridgecrest, CA
<<As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new tanks will
do that job?>>
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109327#109327
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks |
At 04:26 AM 4/26/2007, you wrote:
>As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new
>tanks will do that job?
Hi Bob. Would you please put your full name, approximate location,
aircraft and engine type, and build / flying status in your
signature? Mike and I are trying to make the place a little more
friendly and the information helps people get to know each other a
little better.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks |
Just for the record..
To the best of my knowledge SkyStar never installed fuel tanks in other
then factory demonstrators.. factory built wings did not include fuel tank
installation.
The install is very different in the other aircraft and usually results in
much less fuel capapcity.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
josandt@verizon.net
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: alcoholic gas tanks
Bob, When I pulled the factory-installed tanks (Sky Star '94) out of a
Series 5 factory-built wing, I noticed that 90% of the adhesive designed to
bond the tank to the spars was cured without any contact with the spar. This
was because of the large gap between the tank's front and rear surfaces and
the spar surfaces. With almost no adhesive bond, how strong could that be?
It was mostly just the small tank flanges glued to the top surface of the
spar (most of which was also loose). The fabric is glued down to the top of
the tank, but how strong could that be? Anyway, the new tanks connect with
small aluminum tubes connected between the spars, plywood over and under the
tanks - glued all the way around, and expanding foam filling the voids. I've
built houses, surfboards, worked on boat construction, etc. And all I can
say is that this APPEARS that it will be at least as strong as what was
there. And that's just an opinion, I'm not an aero engineer. As you say,
info on the net !
is worth what you pay. But ours is an experimental hobby by nature. Steve
of "WingTanks.com" says that other experimentals are flying with this type
of tank and similar wing construction - I believe he said "Just Aircraft"
are using this type of tank.
John Sandt / Series 7 / tri-gear / Corvair / Ridgecrest, CA
<<As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new tanks
will do that job?>>
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109327#109327
12:19 PM
12:19 PM
Message 6
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| Subject: | alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
This wing tank business has gotten me to thinking which can sometimes be
dangerous. To me, this is a "chicken and egg" question. Are the wing tanks
really a necessary structural part of the wing? Having built both a M2 and
S5 Kitfoxes, my experience with them has given me cause to wonder about what
this actually means. My full question is are the wing tanks actually a
necessary structural part of the wing or do they become structural when
they're installed? As I recall, the early Kitfoxes had no standard wing
tanks at all, but were optional, relying on the tank behind the instrument
panel. Some had a six gallon tank on one side and nothing on the other and
others had a thirteen on one side and a six on the other, but I think this
was later in the evolution. My M2 had optional aluminum six gallon wing
tanks and prior to selling it at about 400 hours I hadn't had any problems
with them leaking, but I understand that the new owner eventually had
leaking problems due to cracking at the welded seams. The cracking problem
is well known because the wing flexes so much and by anchoring the tanks in
there rigidly, in turbulence, something eventually has to give.
I can definitely see the merit in the tanks provided by Steve Winder. They
just sit in a cavity and essentially float so that they aren't affected by
flexing. By dividing into two separate, but connected tanks, any amount of
tank flexing is further reduced, IMO. Personally, I think it's a better
concept because they still allow the wing to flex through it's full length
where the standard thirteen gallon tanks don't flex at all which means the
there might eventually be a problem with stress in a local area of the spar
just outboard of the tanks.
Good post John! Keep us in the loop on the process.
Now, if we could do something about that price! :-)
Deke Morisse
NE Michigan
S5/Soob/CAP
>
> Bob, When I pulled the factory-installed tanks (Sky Star '94) out of a
Series 5 factory-built wing, I noticed that 90% of the adhesive designed to
bond the tank to the spars was cured without any contact with the spar. This
was because of the large gap between the tank's front and rear surfaces and
the spar surfaces. With almost no adhesive bond, how strong could that be?
It was mostly just the small tank flanges glued to the top surface of the
spar (most of which was also loose). The fabric is glued down to the top of
the tank, but how strong could that be? Anyway, the new tanks connect with
small aluminum tubes connected between the spars, plywood over and under the
tanks - glued all the way around, and expanding foam filling the voids. I've
built houses, surfboards, worked on boat construction, etc. And all I can
say is that this APPEARS that it will be at least as strong as what was
there. And that's just an opinion, I'm not an aero engineer. As you say,
info on the net !
> is worth what you pay. But ours is an experimental hobby by nature. Steve
of "WingTanks.com" says that other experimentals are flying with this type
of tank and similar wing construction - I believe he said "Just Aircraft"
are using this type of tank.
> John Sandt / Series 7 / tri-gear / Corvair / Ridgecrest, CA
>
> <<As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new
tanks will do that job?>>
>
> --------
> Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109327#109327
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Plastic/Poly tanks |
Here's my concerns on Plastic/Poly tanks of any kind. I had my 2 stoke
rotary valve tank crack, my 2 stroke oil injection tank crack (high
density polyethylene). Non Kitfox related but, I had a new plastic
shower stored in my attic for 2 years. Installed it and it fell apart
on the first use (cracked). Had two brand new auto tires in the same
attic. Gave them to a friend and they came apart the initial air up.
With all the above, I'm starting to get a real Leary feeling toward
the word Plastic. Concerning wing tanks, I would be very very careful
to have only White paint covering those wings. For my attic problems I
tend to blame excessive heat. As some of you may remember, I had my 2"
Poly tapes shrink on my wing tops. The paint color was Gray. I did a
little extensive research with Poly Fiber on internal/external wing
temps. I don't recall the numbers now but the temps inside a wing can
easily go higher than the average temps in an attic. Any color other
than White and the temps start to drastically increase.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/582
Newport News, Va.
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
When I took apart my broken right wing the 13 gallon wing tank was in
place and IMHO was acting mostly as a wing form for the fabric covering.
I don't think the tanks were designed to be structural as in "load
bearing", but rather to take the place of the rib that must be omitted
to fit them in the wing.
Of course I'm no engineer and as always advice from the interenet is
worth what you paid. :-)
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
fox5flyer wrote:
>
>This wing tank business has gotten me to thinking which can sometimes be
>dangerous. To me, this is a "chicken and egg" question. Are the wing tanks
>really a necessary structural part of the wing? Having built both a M2 and
>S5 Kitfoxes, my experience with them has given me cause to wonder about what
>this actually means. My full question is are the wing tanks actually a
>necessary structural part of the wing or do they become structural when
>they're installed? As I recall, the early Kitfoxes had no standard wing
>tanks at all, but were optional, relying on the tank behind the instrument
>panel. Some had a six gallon tank on one side and nothing on the other and
>others had a thirteen on one side and a six on the other, but I think this
>was later in the evolution. My M2 had optional aluminum six gallon wing
>tanks and prior to selling it at about 400 hours I hadn't had any problems
>with them leaking, but I understand that the new owner eventually had
>leaking problems due to cracking at the welded seams. The cracking problem
>is well known because the wing flexes so much and by anchoring the tanks in
>there rigidly, in turbulence, something eventually has to give.
>I can definitely see the merit in the tanks provided by Steve Winder. They
>just sit in a cavity and essentially float so that they aren't affected by
>flexing. By dividing into two separate, but connected tanks, any amount of
>tank flexing is further reduced, IMO. Personally, I think it's a better
>concept because they still allow the wing to flex through it's full length
>where the standard thirteen gallon tanks don't flex at all which means the
>there might eventually be a problem with stress in a local area of the spar
>just outboard of the tanks.
>Good post John! Keep us in the loop on the process.
>Now, if we could do something about that price! :-)
>Deke Morisse
>NE Michigan
>S5/Soob/CAP
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Plastic/Poly tanks |
I have 20 year old outboard motor tanks that have been exposed to the sun all year.
they are a bit faded, but still pliable and fully functional. This is not
"new" technology, but tested, tried and true plastics.
I too had the overflow bottle literally crumble in my hands) when I tried to remove
it from the firewall (a sports type water bottle was used). One thing to
think about is that I have seen lots of pics of plastic water bottles and such
being used to oil and overflow tanks. these were not made to hold petroleum
products, but as we are playing with experimental planes, we can put anything
we want in them.
I have snowmachines that are 23 years old and the oil injection tanks and plastic
expansion bottles are fine.
I think that alot of the products we use were not really designed for the application,
but adapted over from another intended use. Steves tanks were developed
and tested for a single particular use, and as such, I have no idea where all
the concernes are coming from.
Just my .02 (that probably is not worth that much lol)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109391#109391
Message 10
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I too got an email on this from guy. not sur what you watching carefully, i
never went anywhere.
I have no idea how to set it on my outlook as I have more than one email
address.
So my signature is what I type, unless someone tells me how to do it in
outlook express.
Dave
I won;t be writing this everytime so better teach me or memorize it .
________________________________-
www.cfisher.com Kitfox movies etc
Site show KF IV 582 -Skis amphibs wheels -
---Not limited to pavement---
Licensed Pilot and Mechanic for nearly 30 years
with a few ratings and endorsements <snicker>
_____________________________________
Hi Dave. It's great to have you back. I've been watching you
carefully and you've been especially helpful and on-topic.
One thing. Would you please put your full name, approximate
location, aircraft and engine type, and build / flying status in your
signature for Kitfox list messages? Mike and I are trying to make the
place a little more friendly and the information helps people get to
know each other a little better.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: alcoholic gas tanks
>
> At 04:26 AM 4/26/2007, you wrote:
>>As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new tanks
>>will do that job?
>
>
> Hi Bob. Would you please put your full name, approximate location,
> aircraft and engine type, and build / flying status in your signature?
> Mike and I are trying to make the place a little more friendly and the
> information helps people get to know each other a little better.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 11
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Ok still no signature unless i clik on Signature. ?
Not part of my every day email thingy so If i remember too which is unlikely
I will.
Thanks to Don for the info on how to do it .
Dave
www.cfisher.com Kitfox movies etc
Site shows KF IV 582 -Skis amphibs wheels -
---Not limited to pavement---
Licensed Pilot and Mechanic for nearly 30 years
> with a few ratings and endorsements <snicker>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: alcoholic gas tanks
>
> At 04:26 AM 4/26/2007, you wrote:
>>As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new tanks
>>will do that job?
>
>
> Hi Bob. Would you please put your full name, approximate location,
> aircraft and engine type, and build / flying status in your signature?
> Mike and I are trying to make the place a little more friendly and the
> information helps people get to know each other a little better.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | 582 Oil Injection tank |
I just received my new oil injection tank to replace the cracked
one. I had a hard time since John didn't have one in stock. Finally
got an original replacement from US Plastics (Nalgene). Was exactly the
same that came with the Kit in 95.
I compared the old with the new and both seemed to have the same
flexibility. However, I was able to completely crush the old tank in my
hands. I have this feeling that the heat from the engine over time
caused this problem.
Go check your tanks and if you see small cracks around the top
corners, you might want to get rid of it. BTW, the new tank does not
have the outlet fitting. Will have to use a metal bulkhead type.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/582
Newport News, Va.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
Before quick-build in the days of no tanks, wing lockers, 6 and 13 gallon
tank options there were several ways to lay out the wing on the jig for
assembly. My guess is that since quick build wings became available, the
most frequent configuration was the 13 gallon tank on both wings, so maybe
that is the configuration most are familiar with.
I pulled out my builders manual and there are three wing diagrams for laying
out the diagonal braces (drag-anti-drag tubes). The first with wing locker
only, the second with 6 gallon tank and the third with the 13 gallon tank.
The only diagrams that doesn't show the diagonal braces in all the rib bays
is when the tanks are in place and then the brace configuration varies so
that the diagonal braces are always terminated at the outboard side of the
tank.
With the wing locker, the brace passes through the locker - essentially no
unbraced wing bay.
The Rans airplanes have the tanks sitting above the diagonal braces, so the
braces
are continuous throughout the wing structure - a major limiting factor for
theie relatively smaller fuel capacity.
The diagrams tend to indicate a structural component to the
tank, essentially replacing the drag-anti-drag tubes in that area.
I scanned the page, but feel reluctant to post it as it is clearly
copywrited by SS.
In the event the tank / wing locker configuration doesn't allow for the
braces to continue to their logical termination at a wing spar, the unbraced
segment of wing is at the wing tip. This suggests that at the root of the
wing, diagonal bracing is important. With regard to the RTV 90% unattached
to the wing, I suggest that was a builder issue rather than a design issue.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 850 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: alcoholic gas tanks-structural?
>
> This wing tank business has gotten me to thinking which can sometimes be
> dangerous. To me, this is a "chicken and egg" question. Are the wing
> tanks
> really a necessary structural part of the wing? Having built both a M2
> and
> S5 Kitfoxes, my experience with them has given me cause to wonder about
> what
> this actually means. My full question is are the wing tanks actually a
> necessary structural part of the wing or do they become structural when
> they're installed? As I recall, the early Kitfoxes had no standard wing
> tanks at all, but were optional, relying on the tank behind the instrument
> panel. Some had a six gallon tank on one side and nothing on the other
> and
> others had a thirteen on one side and a six on the other, but I think this
> was later in the evolution. My M2 had optional aluminum six gallon wing
> tanks and prior to selling it at about 400 hours I hadn't had any problems
> with them leaking, but I understand that the new owner eventually had
> leaking problems due to cracking at the welded seams. The cracking
> problem
> is well known because the wing flexes so much and by anchoring the tanks
> in
> there rigidly, in turbulence, something eventually has to give.
> I can definitely see the merit in the tanks provided by Steve Winder.
> They
> just sit in a cavity and essentially float so that they aren't affected
> by
> flexing. By dividing into two separate, but connected tanks, any amount
> of
> tank flexing is further reduced, IMO. Personally, I think it's a better
> concept because they still allow the wing to flex through it's full length
> where the standard thirteen gallon tanks don't flex at all which means the
> there might eventually be a problem with stress in a local area of the
> spar
> just outboard of the tanks.
> Good post John! Keep us in the loop on the process.
> Now, if we could do something about that price! :-)
> Deke Morisse
> NE Michigan
> S5/Soob/CAP
>
>>
>> Bob, When I pulled the factory-installed tanks (Sky Star '94) out of a
> Series 5 factory-built wing, I noticed that 90% of the adhesive designed
> to
> bond the tank to the spars was cured without any contact with the spar.
> This
> was because of the large gap between the tank's front and rear surfaces
> and
> the spar surfaces. With almost no adhesive bond, how strong could that be?
> It was mostly just the small tank flanges glued to the top surface of the
> spar (most of which was also loose). The fabric is glued down to the top
> of
> the tank, but how strong could that be? Anyway, the new tanks connect with
> small aluminum tubes connected between the spars, plywood over and under
> the
> tanks - glued all the way around, and expanding foam filling the voids.
> I've
> built houses, surfboards, worked on boat construction, etc. And all I can
> say is that this APPEARS that it will be at least as strong as what was
> there. And that's just an opinion, I'm not an aero engineer. As you say,
> info on the net !
>> is worth what you pay. But ours is an experimental hobby by nature.
>> Steve
> of "WingTanks.com" says that other experimentals are flying with this type
> of tank and similar wing construction - I believe he said "Just Aircraft"
> are using this type of tank.
>> John Sandt / Series 7 / tri-gear / Corvair / Ridgecrest, CA
>>
>> <<As the tanks are load-bearing structurally, how do you know the new
> tanks will do that job?>>
>>
>> --------
>> Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109327#109327
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 04/25/07 |
Getting ready to put a coat of clear coat. Does anybody know how much it takes
to cover a kitfox?
Charles
Kitfox-List Digest Server <kitfox-list@matronics.com> wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 15
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I've been busy helping build my hanger, so haven't had much time with
the Fox. I did have time today to change the plenum going to the oil
cooler somewhat. I also made some adjustments to the intake inlets. It
seems to have paid off. I only flew for 30 min. but every thing stayed
in the green. Back to hangering tomorrow But I'll sneak another flight
soon. Norm
P.S. This is a test for the requested trailing information.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: tire valve stem extentions for wheel pants? |
I went to that site, saw what they had and decided that maybe what I
wanted was not a bent extension, but a bent valve *stem.* I went to
my local off-road dealer and found Yamaha tubeless valve stems that
are rubber and brass, bent, and very short. This will allow the stem
to miss the wheel bolts/nuts too. (I recall someone saying that they
had a set of wheels where the stem contacted the bolt/nut) If anybody
is looking for something like this, the part # is 93900-00802...$4.99
each. Honda has a similar part but plated, and cost about $6 more each.
Lynn Matteson
Lower Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/250+ hrs
On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Rexinator wrote:
>
> Seems I remember someone mentioning they needed to find a tube with
> the longer extended valve stem for use with wheel pants. I just
> happened to see these nifty items and thought I would pass the link
> along for general interest.
>
> http://www.dual-star.com/index2/Equipment/valve_stem_extensions41.htm
>
> Rex Hefferan
> SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
Lowell, Good point. However, keep in mind that the guy I bought the wing from flew
it for 10 years, and it is in great condition today.
No stress cracks, signs of warpage or fatigue, etc. If the tank had been designed
as a structural member, wouldn't there have been some consequence to the spars
from years of flying without it adequately glued in? P.S. I'm not going to
have it dissected and subjected to microscopic analysis - don't go there.
<In the event the tank / wing locker configuration doesn't allow <for the braces
to continue to their logical termination at a wing <spar, the unbraced segment
of wing is at the wing tip. This <suggests that at the root of the wing, diagonal
bracing is <important. With regard to the RTV 90% unattached to the wing,
I <suggest that was a builder issue rather than a design issue.
John Sandt / Kitfox 7 builder / tri-gear / Corvair / Ridgecrest, CA
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
Lowell made some good observations about the bracing and it fits with John McBean
writing:
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks
I have been trying to stay away from this discussion but have found it necessary to point out a few issues that I do not believe are being considered. The Kitfox wing was structrually tested with the current tanks and the tanks ARE part of the wing structure unlike many other designs where the tank is cradled beneath the surface. The tank IS part of the airfoil shape of the TOP part of the wing. It is also part of the Drag/Anti-drag component of the wing. Safety of Flight - Kitfox does not endorse or promote the use of aftermarket tanks for safety of flight issues. I can go on but those are the highlights Fly Safe !! John McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
With respect to the lack of bonding of the tanks to the spars in one airplane,
I'll agree that it was probably one builder's installation and add that it's not
what the construction manual shows. Compression bracing doesn't take much
structure, but structure does need to be there and in the correct orientation,
especially as you approach Vne. We could reverse-engineer to see how much margin
this may have had left, or argue that these airplanes are indeed legally
exerimental and you could use toilet paper on yours if you'd like to. However,
the reality is that we are actually dealing with kits that were engineered to
place specific pieces of structure where each is needed. Not knowing whether
some additional engineering basis existed for the different tanks was why I
asked whether there was something to substantiate them. So far, I'll stick with
John's advice.
Bob S.
A&P, Aero Eng
Damascus, MD
Series 5 Vixen Kit #27 in-work with no engine yet.
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109456#109456
Message 19
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| Subject: | Need wheel(s) for Model IV |
I am looking for one or two wheels for my 1994 Model IV. The existing
wheels are the Douglas welded wheels, 8", with brake lugs welded on,
and with 3 mounting holes for the hub.
When I took my wheel pants off today to repair the one damaged last
week, I found that my hard landing had bent the outer portion of the
wheel. I hammered it kinda straight, but would like to find a
replacement wheel(s), just to make sure.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/250+ hrs
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: alcoholic gas tanks-structural? |
At 02:23 PM 4/26/2007, you wrote:
>The diagrams tend to indicate a structural component to the
>tank, essentially replacing the drag-anti-drag tubes in that area.
It is true that the tanks could possibly act as drag braces in their
bays. It is also true that some amount of drag bracing is required,
though it is not clear how much. You really are in "experimental
land". I hope that if you can't prove the new tanks are at least as
strong as the old that you'll use some kind of parachute for the
initial envelope expansion.
(I am a structural engineer, but the information's still only worth
what you paid for it. ;-) )
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Check your Gear legs |
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Check your Gear legs
[Grove Gear]
I have to second the favorable comments on the Grove
gear. I went to it after putting up with a squirrly
bungee gear far too long. Finally, a bungee broke.
With the Grove gear, it taxies straight, isn't wobbly
or springy, just lands straight, even in a crosswind.
Whether you flare too low, run into the ground and
bounce back up or flare too high, all you have to do
is hold the stick back and let it drop in. The gear
absorbs it, but is not stiff, either.
The Grove gear is cheaper than the repairs occasioned
by the bungee gear, I figured. I weighed the bungee
gear, with brakes, tires, and wheels, but without
bungees or wheel pants, and could not see much
difference from the Grove gear. I didn't see any
difference in speed either, but left the wheel pants
off. Mine has real airplane wheels and tires on it,
too, and dual caliper brakes that will handle tundra
tires when I am ready to go there. Now, what about
some little fenders to keep the mud off the wings and
tail?
John Allen
Kitfox IV Speedster, 912 UL, in CA
__________________________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Check your Gear legs |
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Check your Gear legs
[Grove Gear]
I have to second the favorable comments on the Grove
gear. I went to it after putting up with a squirrly
bungee gear far too long. Finally, a bungee broke.
With the Grove gear, it taxies straight, isn't wobbly
or springy, just lands straight, even in a crosswind.
Whether you flare too low, run into the ground and
bounce back up or flare too high, all you have to do
is hold the stick back and let it drop in. The gear
absorbs it, but is not stiff, either.
The Grove gear is cheaper than the repairs occasioned
by the bungee gear, I figured. I weighed the bungee
gear, with brakes, tires, and wheels, but without
bungees or wheel pants, and could not see much
difference from the Grove gear. I didn't see any
difference in speed either, but left the wheel pants
off. Mine has real airplane wheels and tires on it,
too, and dual caliper brakes that will handle tundra
tires when I am ready to go there. Now, what about
some little fenders to keep the mud off the wings and
tail?
John Allen
Kitfox IV Speedster, 912 UL, in CA
__________________________________________________
Message 23
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| Subject: | Hand Propping Aeronca 7AC & Brakes - off topic |
Aeronca 7AC Champs have heel brakes that really need
pushing. They are only for holding it on runup, and,
if space is tight, when doing a clearing 360 turn
before takeoff. I don't think you could hold the
brakes with blocks. I always liked heel brakes much
better than toe brakes, they are out of the way when
you don't need them and easy to get to if you do
(which is seldom in an Aeronca). You could never
apply them unintentionally. The Champ is real
forgiving, easy to fly, lands softly anywhere, is
roomy, and has great visibility, even on flairing.
Passengers enjoy riding in the back and being able to
look out both sides.
The small Continentals pop and sputter to life slowly
at low RPM with a closed throttle, and idle at a few
hundred RPM, without any tendency to go anywhere. It
takes a while for oil pressure to develop, so should
not be revved up any more than necessary. I assume
most pilots do take some precautions, such as tie or
chain the tail or chock the wheels, or have someone
standing on the brakes, ready to turn off the switch.
With its big wing, the Champ loves to fly, and will go
off by itself if you let it. There are two incidences
I have heard of, one in PA and one in CA, where Champs
took off and went flying around with no occupants,
until running out of gas and landing into the trees.
I can't see a Kitfox doing that.
Hand propping a Rotax is a different matter. The
plane definitely has to be well secured and the person
propping very careful, especially with 3 blades, since
it starts up so fast.
John Allen
Kitfox IV Speedster, 912 UL, in CA
Do not archive
__________________________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Check your Gear legs |
Thanks for the grove gear tips... the intent of the post was to make guys aware
that there could be a crack in the the gear UNDER THE BUNGIES that you CANT SEE.
This post is for those who have the bungie gear in hopes it may save someone
a bit of repair time, frustration and possibly harm.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109482#109482
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