---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/21/07: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:14 AM - Norway. WAS: Rotax 582 failure (semi off-topic) (Michel Verheughe) 2. 03:49 AM - Re: N998DS (Don Smythe) (fox5flyer) 3. 12:41 PM - Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (darinh) 4. 01:02 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (Don Smythe) 5. 01:10 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (Andy Fultz) 6. 01:22 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (john oakley) 7. 01:23 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (john oakley) 8. 02:51 PM - Delaminating aileron traling edge (wingnut) 9. 03:18 PM - Just a reminder where to look for...... (Flyersteve) 10. 03:19 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (Lowell Fitt) 11. 03:33 PM - Re: Maximum Takeoff Weight is not Gross weight..... period. (Flyersteve) 12. 03:56 PM - Re: Delaminating aileron traling edge (john oakley) 13. 04:14 PM - Re: Delaminating aileron traling edge (Lowell Fitt) 14. 04:38 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (Dan Billingsley) 15. 04:48 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (Noel Loveys) 16. 04:53 PM - Re: Delaminating aileron trailing edge (kitfoxmike) 17. 04:56 PM - Re: Delaminating aileron traling edge (Don Smythe) 18. 05:24 PM - Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? (john oakley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:04 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Norway. WAS: Rotax 582 failure (semi off-topic) > From: Herbert R Gottelt [gofalke@sbcglobal.net] > Michel, I'll be in Bergen, Norway, with my wife, about the 16th of June, for a coastal > cruise northbound along and into some of the fiords. Just out of curiosity where is > your home town in relation to Bergen? On the other side, Herb, near Oslo. Eight hours away by car, three by Kitfox! :-) Cheers, Michel Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:31 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N998DS (Don Smythe) Don, I'm not sure whether it's appropriate to offer my congrats or condolences about 998DS. You've been with us a long time and hopefully you'll stay with us to, at the minimum, lurk and offer tidbits of your wisdom from time to time. Enjoy that hot tub and if you need a service call, let me know! Deke Morisse N148DM S5/Soob/CAP NE Michigan Spa and Pool Service ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: Kitfox List Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:38 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: N998DS (Don Smythe) N998DS has been sold. I will now invest the money into a Hot Tub and other things I can enjoy around the house. Here is an interesting point that might help others in the future. I have Falcon insurance and the new buyer was seeking the same company. They insisted that he have one hour with a CFI in my Fox. I called my Falcon agent and asked him who was best qualified to give the new buyer a checkout, a CFI that may have never flown a Fox much less mine or the builder how built the flew the airplane. His comment was, "That makes a lot of since". Long story short, Falcon agreed to insure my buyer under the understanding that "I" would provide one hour of "indoctrination" flight training in my Fox. We did that today and I logged the one hour training into his flight log book. I know the difficulties I've seen on the list with people trying to get flight training with CFI's in a Fox. This proves you can negotiate these issues. Don't take the first thing you here. Use your imagination and negotiate. It might pay off. Don Smythe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:19 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? From: "darinh" I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? Darin Hawkes Series 7 (in progress) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:21 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? It was once stated many years ago here that if a breaker/fuse trips you most likely have a serious problem and it will not reset anyway. In the interest of cost, I installed the more robust automotive blade type fuses. To date, I've never had one blow (about 8 years). Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? > > I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when > it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using > straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics > master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, > navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? > > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (in progress) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:27 PM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? I'm doing as Don did. He failed to mention that it is a bunch less expensive this way also. Andy Fultz -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Smythe Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? It was once stated many years ago here that if a breaker/fuse trips you most likely have a serious problem and it will not reset anyway. In the interest of cost, I installed the more robust automotive blade type fuses. To date, I've never had one blow (about 8 years). Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? > > I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when > it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using > straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics > master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, > navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? > > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (in progress) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:17 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Darin, That is about as complicated a question as the gross weight thing.... There is a thought ,(not agreed by all) that the breakers are a distraction and should be installed not in an accessible place in flight. NASA and many others have studied this ... so my suggestion is to install 2 automotive breaker boxes under the dash. One is the main system, lights, master, avionics, ect. The other is the actual avionics breaker box. This box is controlled by the avionics sw and a 30 amp or so relay to liven up the avionics. One master breaker button to protect the whole thing. That breaker is thrown when the over voltage protector is livened up. A simple system works great and easy to deal with if something goes awry. This is the way I wired my system and you can look it over to see if you like the idea. Gee, I also have lipo battery packs for backup. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? Darin Hawkes Series 7 (in progress) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:29 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Don, I am glad to see you still on the list; I have a lot of respect for you and your experience. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? It was once stated many years ago here that if a breaker/fuse trips you most likely have a serious problem and it will not reset anyway. In the interest of cost, I installed the more robust automotive blade type fuses. To date, I've never had one blow (about 8 years). Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? > > I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when > it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using > straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics > master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, > navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? > > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (in progress) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge From: "wingnut" The tailing edge of my ailerons are riveted at about six inch intervals and glued. Is this typical? The glue has failed in a few spots. Is this something to worry about? A hangar buddy has offered to help me fix it. His suggestion was to drill out all the rivets in the affected sections, clean the aluminum out then glue it with structural epoxy and clamp. Anything else I should keep in mind? Awful timing. My check ride was in two days. I guess I'll have to postpone. -Luis Rodriguez -N824KF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114054#114054 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Just a reminder where to look for...... From: "Flyersteve" Just a reminder ... if you are interested in the Kitfox vs light-sport eligibility issue you may read, reply, and comment on it at the following site... http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/ ...and don't forget to read the OFFICIAL FAA regulatory document that is the only publicition that you can rely on to make a valid decision in determining if YOUR Kitfox is eligible for use under sportpilot rules. (Hint: keep the empty weight to a minimum... for a start. Also...learn the origin of the wording "...since original certification as found in the FAA document.) http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf steve 84KF Series 5 / 912UL This post will be deleated by your administrator(s) for personal reasons in ...5..., 4..., 3... 2...,... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114058#114058 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:09 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Darin, I put in the Potter and Brumfield Push Pull circuit breakers. I liked the simplicity of checking systems during annuals, but really not much of a benefit over what Don suggests. I have never pulled one in flight, but did have one accidentally pull once as I was removing something from the passenger seat. I think it was my camera with the strap that hooked the knob and pulled it. It was the power to my video camera set-up and caused a moments consternation as I tried to determine - on the ground - why my camera suddenly stopped working. This project has been a work in progress for about five years and occasionally it will hiccup with lots of time spend debugging it. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 12:40 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? > > I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when > it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using > straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics > master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, > navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? > > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (in progress) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:05 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Maximum Takeoff Weight is not Gross weight..... period. From: "Flyersteve" Of course there will be no "new" information. The FAA has published all that you need....and spent a lot of time getting it right too. It to bad that it took but a few aviation publications to mis-inform the flying community with wrong assumptions due to the fact that they were not familiar with http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf Unless you read and apply this to the FAR 1.1 definition you will get nowhere. Just telling it like it is folks..... steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114061#114061 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:33 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge Luis, If your aileron is riveted every 6 inches or so I would not make the repair an emergency or grounding, it is still being held just fine. Mine do not have any rivets in them. john -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:50 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge The tailing edge of my ailerons are riveted at about six inch intervals and glued. Is this typical? The glue has failed in a few spots. Is this something to worry about? A hangar buddy has offered to help me fix it. His suggestion was to drill out all the rivets in the affected sections, clean the aluminum out then glue it with structural epoxy and clamp. Anything else I should keep in mind? Awful timing. My check ride was in two days. I guess I'll have to postpone. -Luis Rodriguez -N824KF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114054#114054 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:34 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge Louis, As I recall, the flaperons came glued and the rivets were placed exactly for the reason you describe, to hold the things together when the glue fails. It sounds to me like your fix is exactly what it calls for. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp 1998 850 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:50 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge > > The tailing edge of my ailerons are riveted at about six inch intervals > and glued. Is this typical? > > The glue has failed in a few spots. Is this something to worry about? > > A hangar buddy has offered to help me fix it. His suggestion was to drill > out all the rivets in the affected sections, clean the aluminum out then > glue it with structural epoxy and clamp. Anything else I should keep in > mind? > > Awful timing. My check ride was in two days. I guess I'll have to > postpone. > > -Luis Rodriguez > -N824KF > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114054#114054 > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:23 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Darin, Sometimes it's good to see others that are scratching their heads building as I am. I too had many questions as to the best way to wirre the panel so I went to one of Bob Nuckols seminars. This is his web address http://www.aeroelectric.com/ Look over his web site and think strongly about purchasing his book as it has many wiring schematics that are simply done. If you are hooking up a Rotax 912s it has that covered. You have already received good advice from those on this list...Bob is an advocate of not using breakers for good reasons. The book Aeroelectric Connection covers these philosophies well. Happy Wiring, Dan Billingsley Mesa / KF-IV 912s / N314DW / Building darinh wrote: I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I am thinking about using straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs, strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? Darin Hawkes Series 7 (in progress) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:57 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? I've been reading the mail on this one. And It is obvious that the type of circuit protection is a personal convenience. For example I fly floats in remote locations. Circuit breakers are a nice convenience, should I ever experience a short circuit the popped breaker will make it much easier to locate. Automotive blade type fuses would provide an equal level of protection without the ability to easily unload circuits selectively in flight. My plane has a whopping great five circuits drawing a total of about 10 Amps peak current. Carrying a reasonable supply of spares is also a good idea. Circuit protection is sort of like an insurance policy.... I'm betting I'll need it and the electronic component manufacturers are betting I won't. The important thing to me is not so much what protection you use but where you install it. My advice on that item is to install your protection as close to your busses as possible. Several certified aircraft actually install the breakers directly on the busses. That gives the most protection for everything down stream of the buss. Therefore it is also important to install some protection for the busses them selves too. A good healthy fusible link right on the positive terminal of the battery ( not the starter circuit ) will protect all the busses that line feeds. You will also want to install some current protection between your alternator and your battery or main buss. The last item is neatness. You will have to look at the set up of your electrical system for many hours of enjoyable flight so you should make the installation so it looks neat. Remember if you use the blade fuses to give enough room to easily extract and replace fuses. Auto resetting relays(breakers) like used on automotive headlights should be reserved for that application and with the exception of the Dukes of Hazzard be kept out of the air.. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 5:11 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? > > > > I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone > has done when it comes to breakers and breaker switches? I > am thinking about using straight breakers on the avionics > with them being tied to the avionics master and then using > breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs, > strobes, heater, etc. What have you guys done? > > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (in progress) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:30 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Delaminating aileron trailing edge From: "kitfoxmike" Believe it. I split my ailerons in the back and then revited. Why? so that if any water got inside it would drain out. I also put holes in the bottom rear of the ailerons to assist in drainage of water. I would leave them. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114076#114076 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:35 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge Louis, I'm not sure I'd postpone my check ride unless this is some serious structural failure. Sounds like it's a somewhat common problem that might be more cosmetic than structural. If you are riveted every 6", the flapperon can't come apart. I saw an award winning Fox (No Names) at Sun-N-Fun in about 1997 that had the same thing you are talking about. I noticed it then and decided to double up my rivets (3") on the trailing edge. I didn't feel comfortable using recessed flushed rivets because of the thinness of the material so I used standard 3/32". I then used a dremel tool to trim all the rivets up to the ball on the back side. Once done, I placed a small drop of West Systems epoxy on both sides (one at a time until cured). It formed a small well rounded bubble to help hide the rivet. Worked fine with "NO" delamination to date. Don Smythe Classic IV w/582 Newport News, Va. Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 5:50 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Delaminating aileron traling edge > > The tailing edge of my ailerons are riveted at about six inch intervals > and glued. Is this typical? > > The glue has failed in a few spots. Is this something to worry about? > > A hangar buddy has offered to help me fix it. His suggestion was to drill > out all the rivets in the affected sections, clean the aluminum out then > glue it with structural epoxy and clamp. Anything else I should keep in > mind? > > Awful timing. My check ride was in two days. I guess I'll have to > postpone. > > -Luis Rodriguez > -N824KF > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114054#114054 > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:24 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Dan, Good advise on using Bob Nuckolls book and information. You may not remember, he was once was on this list. Good info and supplies, I have his over voltage protection and many of his tools. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch? Darin, Sometimes it's good to see others that are scratching their heads building as I am. I too had many questions as to the best way to wirre the panel so I went to one of Bob Nuckols seminars. This is his web address http://www.aeroelectric. com/ Look over his web site and think strongly about purchasing his book as it has many wiring schematics that are simply done. If you are hooking up a Rotax 912s it has that covered. You have already received good advice from those on this list...Bob is an advocate of not using breakers for good reasons. The book Aeroelectric Connection covers these philosophies well. Happy Wiring, Dan Billingsley Mesa / KF-IV 912s / N314DW / Building darinh wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.