Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:26 AM - Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (wingnut)
2. 06:59 AM - Re: 912UL starting problems. (kitfoxmike)
3. 07:22 AM - Re: Pitot lines (Joel)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: 912UL starting problems. (paul wilson)
5. 09:54 AM - Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (Charles Bloom)
6. 10:39 AM - Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 (1Dill Family)
7. 10:44 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: Engine 'tick' (Stan Tew)
8. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (RRTRACK@aol.com)
9. 10:48 AM - Re: 912UL starting problems. (kitfoxmike)
10. 12:47 PM - Re: Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 (Marco Menezes)
11. 01:01 PM - Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (JC Propellerdesign)
12. 02:27 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (Rick)
13. 03:24 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (crazyivan)
14. 03:27 PM - Re: Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 (fox5flyer)
15. 03:42 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (Randy Daughenbaugh)
16. 04:30 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (kirk hull)
17. 05:08 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (Lowell Fitt)
18. 05:15 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (N81JG@aol.com)
19. 06:47 PM - Lynn's Trip (Jimmie Blackwell)
20. 07:30 PM - Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag (akflyer)
21. 09:19 PM - Items for Sale (Mike Couillard)
22. 10:56 PM - Re: S5 912S overheating - cowling? (Joel)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip |
That's only 93mph. Did he hit some headwinds on the way?
Thanks for posting by the way. I don't know how the rest of the forum feels about
it but I like coming here to read about the adventures of other kitfox enthusiasts
as much as I like all the excellent technical advise. Assuming that no
one else minds, please post more.
Luis Rodriguez
824KF
> I just spoke via cell phone to Lynn Matteson who completed his first leg his
trip from Grass Lake Michigan to Sacramento CA area. After a 5.75 flying hours
he completed about 523 miles landing at Gilbertsville KY (M34) and is tent camping
at Kentucky Dam St Park. He got 22.61mpg and 4.12gph with his Jabaru 2200
Model IV. If all goes well tomorrow, next stop is Texarkana. I'll try to keep
up daily reports on his progress when I can
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115355#115355
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL starting problems. |
THere is something that happens with the 912 engine in a fox. After sitting a
while the oil will run into the back of the engine, then it fills the back two
cylinders (runs past the rings) and then to clear it you need to remove the back
cylinder plugs and spray brake cleaner or solvent into the cylinder to clean
it out and blow air in there, then put in clean or replace the plugs.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115360#115360
Message 3
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When building my model 5 I installed the Dynon with pitot and AOA lines. Drilling
one hole in the spar gave me the willies, TWO?? So I ran the lines out to
the wing tip, lacing them with rib stitching along the way and then back through
the entire length of the rear spar and used a foam plug to center the lines
for anti chafing. 40 hours since new. One more flight and phase 1 is complete.
--------
Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115364#115364
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL starting problems. |
Viscosity of your oil? Heavier is better
================
At 07:58 AM 5/29/2007, you wrote:
>
>THere is something that happens with the 912 engine in a fox. After
>sitting a while the oil will run into the back of the engine, then
>it fills the back two cylinders (runs past the rings) and then to
>clear it you need to remove the back cylinder plugs and spray brake
>cleaner or solvent into the cylinder to clean it out and blow air in
>there, then put in clean or replace the plugs.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>model IV, 1200
>speedster
>912ul
>building
>RV7a
>slowbuild wings, fuse
>Do not archive
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115360#115360
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip |
I second Wingnut's comment. It is nice to hear about what others are doing with
their Kitfox's and I think is in keeping with the intent of the list.
do not archive
Chuck
.
Charles Bloom
kj7sr@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 |
I am looking for some softer rubber to reduce the vibration coming from
my 582. I just got off the phone with CPS and conclude that their mount
is the wrong fit. I see from the Skystar schematic that the hole in the
plate is 0.75", and their mount was just a little over 0.5", expanding
to about 1.5" at the wider dimension.
John McBean has the part, but carries only one softness, which I am
assuming is the same part I have now. Can anybody tell me a supplier
who has this part in a variety of softness? Any other tips on how to
tame this low RPM vibration?
Jeffrey R. Dill, 767JD, M2
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List Digest: Engine 'tick' |
I have KF II with Rotax 582 (blue head) in the past was equipped with 582 (gray
head) that nearly destroyed itself by ticking. I felt it on the rudder pedals
like someone had hit the airframe with a small hammer. Or as you put it list
a hit on the rudder. After trying everything while at Sun N Fun I talked to a
guy at the LEAF booth that said the engine was too lean. He was absolutey RIGHT.
This can occur due to a variety of causes but the result is the same. You'll
end up with a nice circular hole in the dome of the pistion unless you correct
it.
STAN 2
----- Original Message ----
From: Kitfox-List Digest Server <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:58:49 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 05/27/07
*
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Kitfox-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 05/27/07: 16
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:37 AM - N998DS (Don Smythe) (Don Smythe)
2. 09:43 AM - radio endorsement (Lynn Matteson)
3. 11:35 AM - 582 Engine Tick (Don Smythe)
4. 02:33 PM - Re: 582 Engine Tick (kurt schrader)
5. 02:40 PM - Weight & Balance Form (Charles Bloom)
6. 03:29 PM - Re: Best software for logging build progress? (wingnut)
7. 03:32 PM - Re: 582 Engine Tick (Tom Jones)
8. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: Best software for logging build progress? (kirk hull)
9. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: 582 Engine Tick (Lynn Matteson)
10. 06:15 PM - Re: 582 Engine Tick (Tom Jones)
11. 06:27 PM - Re: Weight & Balance Form (Tom Jones)
12. 06:27 PM - Re: Re: 582 Engine Tick (Don Smythe)
13. 06:45 PM - Re: 582 Engine Tick (Tom Jones)
14. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: 582 Engine Tick (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
15. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: 582 Engine Tick (dwight purdy)
16. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: 582 Engine Tick (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 09:37:01 AM PST US
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: N998DS (Don Smythe)
Well, I got up early this morning and drove two hours to pick up the new
buyer at his home airport. Drove back to PHF where he officially took
deliver. Once around the pattern and off he headed to the North. I sat
next to the runway for his departure and must say I had a moment of
sadness as he rolled the wings and headed off.
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 09:43:01 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: radio endorsement
I just flew out to the local Class D airport (JXN) with my flight
instructor, did 6 landings, including some on-purpose x-winds, stop-
and-goes, options, full stop and park, right traffic
patterns...pretty much the works, and I've now got my long-awaited
radio endorsement for B, C, and D.
I'm out of here tomorrow morning for the trip to Hondo,TX, and then
on to Lowell's 9th Cameron Park Kitfox fly-in and BBQ on June 9. See
some of you there.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/293+ hrs
do not archive
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 11:35:33 AM PST US
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Engine Tick
Oh well, I had a feeling something would come back on me. Last week,
when the new buyer and I were test flying the engine gave out a few Tick
sounds like a fouled plug. I changed the plugs before delivery today
and he made a successful 100 mile flight with no problems. When he
descended from 4500' at his location the Tick's started to come back.
Assuming this is another fouled plug, what could be causing this on such
a short time? I've never experienced this situation except for one
other time when it was for sure a fouled plug. Any ideas?
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/582 (sold)
Newport News, Va.
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 02:33:05 PM PST US
From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Engine Tick
Don,
You are supposed to have today off! Congrats on .....
no, I can't say it. Still sorry your plane is gone.
Selfish, I know.
Normally a rich running or oil burning engine fouls
the plugs, but on 2 cycles, other ignition problems
are more common than on 4 cycle engines. I think that
since you have oil in the gas, the 2 cycle engine are
designed to be better able to handle some fouling and
that leaves the other ignition problems a bit more
likely, by percentage, than on a 4 cycle. At least
that has been my experience.
Plug gap? Plug color? All OK?
So have him check the timing and spark plug wires too.
Make sure a good connection is there and no arcing
from a wire to some ground. If he has a timing light,
check each plug wire when it is running to see where
the miss is. A little harder to check for weak
ingition, but that may do it too.
The usual suspects I am afraid. But you and I may be
the only ones here, so thought I would at least say
"Hello"
Kurt S.
Do not archive
S-5/NSI turbo
--- Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
> Oh well, I had a feeling something would come back
> on me. Last week, when the new buyer and I were
> test flying the engine gave out a few Tick sounds
> like a fouled plug. I changed the plugs before
> delivery today and he made a successful 100 mile
> flight with no problems. When he descended from
> 4500' at his location the Tick's started to come
> back. Assuming this is another fouled plug, what
> could be causing this on such a short time? I've
> never experienced this situation except for one
> other time when it was for sure a fouled plug. Any
> ideas?
>
> Don Smythe
> Classic IV w/582 (sold)
> Newport News, Va.
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 02:40:50 PM PST US
From: "Charles Bloom" <kj7sr@earthlink.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight & Balance Form
When I got my Kitfox I had the weight and balance information but they were on
a sheet of yellow tablet paper. I was wondering if someone could send me an example
of what the sheet on weight and balance that is carried in the airplane
should look like. I would sure appreciate it.
Chuck
do not archive.
Charles Bloom
Kitfox, Model One
Missoula, MT
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 03:29:09 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best software for logging build progress?
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Hey guys. I write software for a living. I might be interested in taking a stab
at writing something if I could get good details on what people would want such
a program to actually do for them.
Luis Rodriguez
824KF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115094#115094
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 03:32:35 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Don, my engine is a 503 Rotax but has the same carbs as yours. When I reduce throttle
to the mid range the needle controls the mixture. I have the arctic sparrow
adjustable needles and richen a turn or two to keep the EGT's down when
I descend with the throttle in the mid range. When it starts to get a little
too rich the engine "ticks" (four strokes).
It took me a while to figure out what was causing this sound. It could be a rich
mid range (needle adjustment) in his carbs???
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503, Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115096#115096
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 04:56:52 PM PST US
From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Best software for logging build progress?
I would start with a simple d base that holds the text logs of what was done
then dates it and stores it with the pictures of what was done. Then add
more features from there
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Best software for logging build progress?
Hey guys. I write software for a living. I might be interested in taking a
stab at writing something if I could get good details on what people would
want such a program to actually do for them.
Luis Rodriguez
824KF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115094#115094
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 05:02:57 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
Could this ticking sound be the sound of the exhaust pipes cooling
off due to the rich mixture?
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/293+ hrs
On May 27, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> Don, my engine is a 503 Rotax but has the same carbs as yours.
> When I reduce throttle to the mid range the needle controls the
> mixture. I have the arctic sparrow adjustable needles and richen a
> turn or two to keep the EGT's down when I descend with the throttle
> in the mid range. When it starts to get a little too rich the
> engine "ticks" (four strokes).
>
> It took me a while to figure out what was causing this sound. It
> could be a rich mid range (needle adjustment) in his carbs???
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV, Phase one
> 503, Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
Time: 06:15:41 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
> Could this ticking sound be the sound of the exhaust pipes cooling
> off due to the rich mixture?
The "Ticking" I was referring to is the very eary stages of a 2 cycle engine beginning
to 4 cycle because it is too rich...I think. It is not missing every
other stroke yet but once every second or two, or three I confirmed by leaning
the needles one turn and the "Ticking" stopped. This was during my first two
flights so any unususal sounds caught my immediate attention.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503, Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115112#115112
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
Time: 06:27:24 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Weight & Balance Form
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Charles, if someone with a model I weight and balance form doesn't reply, let me
know and I will get you the information I have for my Classic 4.
The form I use has "Adverse foreward" and Adverse aft" sections. My kitfox has
a pannel tank. The CG of the panel tank is foreward of the datum. There is
a computer program around to compute and print the form but it has a flaw.
It is designed to move the CG foreward as fuel is burned. This works with Kitfox
wing tanks but not with a panel tank. As fuel in the panel tank is burned
the CG moves aft. I have a 'Brute force" method to deal with this but it becomes
very confusing to try and explain. If you can get an actual clean copy of
a Model I form the confusion factor will be much less.
Or...did I hear someone just mention they are a computer programer?
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503, Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115115#115115
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
Time: 06:27:42 PM PST US
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
Tom,
I will work toward this direction of thought. I'll also rephrase the
"Ticking". The tick is in conjunctions with an engine miss. It was very
intermittent and not present on the ground at idle or taxi. Rather than a
tick it was a slight bump like an engine miss. A bit hard to explain.
Today it occurred during his long decent from over 4000' I assume he was
throttled back but the mixture was probably on the rich side.
Don Smythe
Newport News, Va.
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
>
>
>> Could this ticking sound be the sound of the exhaust pipes cooling
>> off due to the rich mixture?
>
>
> The "Ticking" I was referring to is the very eary stages of a 2 cycle
> engine beginning to 4 cycle because it is too rich...I think. It is not
> missing every other stroke yet but once every second or two, or three I
> confirmed by leaning the needles one turn and the "Ticking" stopped. This
> was during my first two flights so any unususal sounds caught my immediate
> attention.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV, Phase one
> 503, Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115112#115112
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
Time: 06:45:05 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
> it was a slight bump like an engine miss.
This describes the sound I referr to exactly.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503, Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115121#115121
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
Time: 08:05:17 PM PST US
From: Malcolmbru@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
I called Jerry at Green sky about something very similar and he described it
to me this way. Don't worry about it. between the way the muffler is
chopped ,the motor mounts , jetting, it just sets up a vibration at a certain
RPM that makes it feel that way. sometimes I think I feel like the rutter
is being hit buy something . I just don't fly it in that configuration.the
cdi ignition ether works or it don't. ether way you need to cut the cord with
this guy man. it is his plane now let him join the list and make the
call's. mal
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________
Time: 08:05:45 PM PST US
From: dwight purdy <dpurdy@comteck.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
Don
I try to never pull the power clear back till short short final. This way
I can keep the egt above 1000 to 1100 till then. Is this new owner
experienced with two stroke flying? Were you burning 100LL?
Dwight Purdy
503 model ll
Marion IN
At 09:27 PM 5/27/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Tom,
> I will work toward this direction of thought. I'll also rephrase the
> "Ticking". The tick is in conjunctions with an engine miss. It was very
> intermittent and not present on the ground at idle or taxi. Rather than
> a tick it was a slight bump like an engine miss. A bit hard to explain.
> Today it occurred during his long decent from over 4000' I assume he was
> throttled back but the mixture was probably on the rich side.
>
>Don Smythe
>Newport News, Va.
>
>Do Not Archive
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:15 PM
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
>
>
>>
>>
>>>Could this ticking sound be the sound of the exhaust pipes cooling
>>>off due to the rich mixture?
>>
>>
>>The "Ticking" I was referring to is the very eary stages of a 2 cycle
>>engine beginning to 4 cycle because it is too rich...I think. It is not
>>missing every other stroke yet but once every second or two, or three I
>>confirmed by leaning the needles one turn and the "Ticking"
>>stopped. This was during my first two flights so any unususal sounds
>>caught my immediate attention.
>>
>>--------
>>Tom Jones
>>Classic IV, Phase one
>>503, Warp
>>Ellensburg, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115112#115112
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM
--
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________
Time: 08:30:27 PM PST US
From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
What were the EGT temps when it was makeing the tick? My guess is that they
were on the low side. It sounds to me like the midrange is to rich. I'm
not an expert but I have been flying these two strokes for about 7 years in
various different UL/airplanes and have heard the same noise (miss) when I
got to rich. Just my two cents worth. Thanks
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV, Avid B
both 582
>From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:27:18 -0400
>
>
>Tom,
> I will work toward this direction of thought. I'll also rephrase the
>"Ticking". The tick is in conjunctions with an engine miss. It was very
>intermittent and not present on the ground at idle or taxi. Rather than a
>tick it was a slight bump like an engine miss. A bit hard to explain.
>Today it occurred during his long decent from over 4000' I assume he was
>throttled back but the mixture was probably on the rich side.
>
>Don Smythe
>Newport News, Va.
>
>Do Not Archive
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:15 PM
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Engine Tick
>
>
>>
>>
>>>Could this ticking sound be the sound of the exhaust pipes cooling
>>>off due to the rich mixture?
>>
>>
>>The "Ticking" I was referring to is the very eary stages of a 2 cycle
>>engine beginning to 4 cycle because it is too rich...I think. It is not
>>missing every other stroke yet but once every second or two, or three I
>>confirmed by leaning the needles one turn and the "Ticking" stopped. This
>>was during my first two flights so any unususal sounds caught my immediate
>>attention.
>>
>>--------
>>Tom Jones
>>Classic IV, Phase one
>>503, Warp
>>Ellensburg, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115112#115112
>>
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_________________________________________________________________
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip |
I too really enjoy hearing about the Kitfox adventures. I think we can all
learn from them, and plan better trips with the information. And help inspire
those who are still building!
Mark
Hartford, Wisconsin
Kitfox 5 Vixen 912 UL
70" IVO Prop
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL starting problems. |
I don't think the vis. of the oil will do much for the year storage and the drain
back into the engine from the oil reservoir. When I had my fox sitting for
9 months it did it. I just removed the spark plugs, put some solvent in the
cylinders and then drained the oil in the block, removed the rear plug(real pain),
found I needed to replace the return hose so two things taken care of at
the same time. Glad I saw this before starting or tried to start the engine because
I woud think the engine would have locked on top dead of the rear cyl.
as well.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115407#115407
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 |
Hi Jeff.
I think consensus is that the 582 just vibrates alot at idle speed. "Softer"
mounts probably won't cure that apparently immutable characterstic of the engine.
Having said this, there are some workarounds. You can speed up the idle or
unload the engine by installing the prop slip-clutch system (available for the
C box).
I have the slip clutch and like it, though I do worry some about what a free,
windmilling prop will do to my glide in the event of engine failure.
1Dill Family <1Dillfamily@comcast.net> wrote:
I am looking for some softer rubber to reduce the vibration coming
from my 582. I just got off the phone with CPS and conclude that their mount
is the wrong fit. I see from the Skystar schematic that the hole in the plate
is 0.75", and their mount was just a little over 0.5", expanding to about 1.5"
at the wider dimension.
John McBean has the part, but carries only one softness, which I am assuming
is the same part I have now. Can anybody tell me a supplier who has this part
in a variety of softness? Any other tips on how to tame this low RPM vibration?
Jeffrey R. Dill, 767JD, M2
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
Hi Guys,
I have a question from a Polish Pilot, if drag is less or not from a
free spinning propeller (engine with clutch) or stopped propeller, when
engine is stopped or out, and how much it will do on sink rate?
I think we all agree on the fact that drag is higher if propeller is
rotating and driving the engine, then if propeller and engine is
stopped.
I can't think about a better place to ask this question then here on
this active list with all different engine / prop setup that exists on
kitfoxes.
The Polish guy is replacing his VW with a modern BMW with a 2,75/1
reduction on a Tulak airplane.
Best
Jan Carlsson
Message 12
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| Subject: | Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
For those that would argue differently. If the prop did not create drag
in free rotation helicopters could not auto rotate. As far as how much.
It take some nerve to test that feature. I never intentionally shut off
the engine in flight. There must be some formula to do the math. I did
once go beta and full power. That was way different being pulled forward
while in the air. Went back to regular flight real quick. Fun though.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC
Propellerdesign
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
Hi Guys,
I have a question from a Polish Pilot, if drag is less or not from a
free spinning propeller (engine with clutch) or stopped propeller, when
engine is stopped or out, and how much it will do on sink rate?
I think we all agree on the fact that drag is higher if propeller is
rotating and driving the engine, then if propeller and engine is
stopped.
I can't think about a better place to ask this question then here on
this active list with all different engine / prop setup that exists on
kitfoxes.
The Polish guy is replacing his VW with a modern BMW with a 2,75/1
reduction on a Tulak airplane.
Best
Jan Carlsson
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Kitfox-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
11:40 AM
11:40 AM
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
There are a few guys on this list that like to shut the engine off in flight.
I, on the other hand, am too chicken. What I can offer is the drag difference
between different pitches of prop. I had my IvoProp set for a flat (climb) pitch
and it was tough to get the prop to spin at 2000rpm at idle on final at 55mph
but the drag was noticable. When I had a fatter pitch set for cruise, I had
to be careful to keep the rpm above 1800 (gear box chatter) and I had a harder
time slowing down...I had to make a flatter approach.
There wasn't a big difference, but it was noticable. If I lost the engine on final,
I'm certain that there would be reduced drag from a stationary prop. I'm
not sure how much and I ain't gonna find out on purpose unless I'm over the
great salt flats.
--------
Dave
Speedster 912 UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115445#115445
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582 |
As for the softer mounts, they may help some, but reducing the engine
shake would help the most.
Jeffrey, the roughness you feel is normal for the 582 when idling. Part
of it is the nature of the two stroker, part is the tortional vibration
of the pistons trying to turn the prop, and part is the nature of the
gearbox. You can usually improve the idle considerably by going to
leaner idle jets and also by keeping the rpms up over 2200 when idling.
Ensure you have the throttle adjusted so you can pull it back to about
1500 so you can land without floating.
Your mileage will vary and you'll probably get several more replies to
this common phenomenon of the 582.
Deke Morisse
N148DM
S5/Soob/CAP
NE Michigan
----- Original Message -----
From: 1Dill Family
To: Kitfox-List@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Softer Flat plate Engine mount for 582
I am looking for some softer rubber to reduce the vibration coming
from my 582. I just got off the phone with CPS and conclude that their
mount is the wrong fit. I see from the Skystar schematic that the hole
in the plate is 0.75", and their mount was just a little over 0.5",
expanding to about 1.5" at the wider dimension.
John McBean has the part, but carries only one softness, which I am
assuming is the same part I have now. Can anybody tell me a supplier
who has this part in a variety of softness? Any other tips on how to
tame this low RPM vibration?
Jeffrey R. Dill, 767JD, M2
Message 15
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| Subject: | Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
Rick,
Shut off the engine.
Perhaps it helps that I started out as a glider pilot, but I enjoy shutting
off the engine and enjoying quiet flight. Sometimes I do it just to show
passengers that it is no big deal. Sometimes, like this past Sunday, I do
it to work the thermals. The Kitfox does not have a great glide ratio, but
that is not what is needed to work thermals. What is needed is a low sink
rate - lower than the vertical speed of the thermal. I get about a 500 fpm
sink rate at about 63 mph airspeed. That's not too bad for a starter
glider, but a high performance glider can get under 200 fpm.
If your engine is off for a long time, start it early enough so you can warm
the engine before you get close to the ground. Usually, unless you are
going to do a dead stick landing this will be only 6 - 12 minutes anyway so
your engine is still warm.
To get back on topic, with my old prop, I had to slow nearly to full stall
to get the engine to stop windmilling. So it was easy to measure sink rate
with it windmilling or without. I didn't test it real carefully, but sink
rate was over 600 fpm with the prop windmilling versus 500 with the prop
stopped.
With my new prop, I can get the prop to stop windmilling if I just slow to
about 55 mph. I haven't tried to measure windmilling versus stopped.
To start the engine, I just have to bump the starter and it starts right off
with the air pushing it.
Try it. You will like it! And it will make you a more confident pilot.
Randy
Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH
Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore
Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors
Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip
Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
For those that would argue differently. If the prop did not create drag in
free rotation helicopters could not auto rotate. As far as how much. It
take some nerve to test that feature. I never intentionally shut off the
engine in flight. There must be some formula to do the math. I did once go
beta and full power. That was way different being pulled forward while in
the air. Went back to regular flight real quick. Fun though.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC
Propellerdesign
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
Hi Guys,
I have a question from a Polish Pilot, if drag is less or not from a free
spinning propeller (engine with clutch) or stopped propeller, when engine is
stopped or out, and how much it will do on sink rate?
I think we all agree on the fact that drag is higher if propeller is
rotating and driving the engine, then if propeller and engine is stopped.
I can't think about a better place to ask this question then here on this
active list with all different engine / prop setup that exists on kitfoxes.
The Polish guy is replacing his VW with a modern BMW with a 2,75/1 reduction
on a Tulak airplane.
Best
Jan Carlsson
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
by AVG Release Date: 5/28/2007 11:40 AM
11:40 AM
Message 16
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| Subject: | Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
>From the aerodynamics classes that I took ( what I remember of them anyway)
a freewheeling prop looks like a solid circle to the air. In other words a
lot of drag. As far as stopping the engine in flight , it was removed from
the training curriculum for a reason.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
For those that would argue differently. If the prop did not create drag in
free rotation helicopters could not auto rotate. As far as how much. It
take some nerve to test that feature. I never intentionally shut off the
engine in flight. There must be some formula to do the math. I did once go
beta and full power. That was way different being pulled forward while in
the air. Went back to regular flight real quick. Fun though.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC
Propellerdesign
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
Hi Guys,
I have a question from a Polish Pilot, if drag is less or not from a free
spinning propeller (engine with clutch) or stopped propeller, when engine is
stopped or out, and how much it will do on sink rate?
I think we all agree on the fact that drag is higher if propeller is
rotating and driving the engine, then if propeller and engine is stopped.
I can't think about a better place to ask this question then here on this
active list with all different engine / prop setup that exists on kitfoxes.
The Polish guy is replacing his VW with a modern BMW with a 2,75/1 reduction
on a Tulak airplane.
Best
Jan Carlsson
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
by AVG Release Date: 5/28/2007 11:40 AM
11:40 AM
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
I have never done it but this topic came up during the trip to So. Cal. and
the other three pilots had done it and our most experienced pilot said he
guessed it would be 20-30 greater glide. That corresponds pretty well with
Randy's experience.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 850 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
> Rick,
>
> Shut off the engine.
>
>
> Perhaps it helps that I started out as a glider pilot, but I enjoy
> shutting
> off the engine and enjoying quiet flight. Sometimes I do it just to show
> passengers that it is no big deal. Sometimes, like this past Sunday, I do
> it to work the thermals. The Kitfox does not have a great glide ratio,
> but
> that is not what is needed to work thermals. What is needed is a low sink
> rate - lower than the vertical speed of the thermal. I get about a 500
> fpm
> sink rate at about 63 mph airspeed. That's not too bad for a starter
> glider, but a high performance glider can get under 200 fpm.
>
>
> If your engine is off for a long time, start it early enough so you can
> warm
> the engine before you get close to the ground. Usually, unless you are
> going to do a dead stick landing this will be only 6 - 12 minutes anyway
> so
> your engine is still warm.
>
>
> To get back on topic, with my old prop, I had to slow nearly to full stall
> to get the engine to stop windmilling. So it was easy to measure sink
> rate
> with it windmilling or without. I didn't test it real carefully, but sink
> rate was over 600 fpm with the prop windmilling versus 500 with the prop
> stopped.
>
>
> With my new prop, I can get the prop to stop windmilling if I just slow to
> about 55 mph. I haven't tried to measure windmilling versus stopped.
>
>
> To start the engine, I just have to bump the starter and it starts right
> off
> with the air pushing it.
>
>
> Try it. You will like it! And it will make you a more confident pilot.
>
>
> Randy
>
>
> Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH
>
> Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore
>
> Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors
>
> Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip
>
> Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
>
>
> For those that would argue differently. If the prop did not create drag in
> free rotation helicopters could not auto rotate. As far as how much. It
> take some nerve to test that feature. I never intentionally shut off the
> engine in flight. There must be some formula to do the math. I did once go
> beta and full power. That was way different being pulled forward while in
> the air. Went back to regular flight real quick. Fun though.
>
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC
> Propellerdesign
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:59 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag
>
> Hi Guys,
>
>
> I have a question from a Polish Pilot, if drag is less or not from a free
> spinning propeller (engine with clutch) or stopped propeller, when engine
> is
> stopped or out, and how much it will do on sink rate?
>
>
> I think we all agree on the fact that drag is higher if propeller is
> rotating and driving the engine, then if propeller and engine is stopped.
>
>
> I can't think about a better place to ask this question then here on this
> active list with all different engine / prop setup that exists on
> kitfoxes.
>
>
> The Polish guy is replacing his VW with a modern BMW with a 2,75/1
> reduction
> on a Tulak airplane.
>
>
> Best
>
>
> Jan Carlsson
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
> "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> by AVG Release Date: 5/28/2007 11:40 AM
>
>
> 11:40 AM
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
A wind-milling, undriven rotor (no motor drag) is what allows a helicopter
to descend in autorotation. A stopped rotor will not allow an autorotation,
only descent like a brick. Hence rotating blades have more drag.
John Greaves
VariEze N81JG
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 19
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|
Just talked to Lynn via cell phone. He was in Bald Knob Arkansas and
planning on staying there tonight. Said he just had a dinner of
crawfish and alligator. With that kind of meal we know he is getting
down South. Hopefully, he will be in Texas tomorrow and we can get him
some einchaladas and maybe a margarita or two.
Jimmie
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Stoped / windmilling propeller drag |
[quote="N81JG(at)aol.com"]A wind-milling, undriven rotor (no motor drag) is what
allows a helicopter to descend in autorotation. A stopped rotor will not allow
an autorotation, only descent like a brick. Hence rotating blades have more
drag.
John Greaves
VariEze N81JG
Close... In a helicopter, autorotation is possible from the stored energy in the
blades. If you can go to negative pitch, you can acutally gain rotor RPM.
To auto rotate, you go negative on the pitch and fly with the cyclic as you normaly
would. you start you flare a little later than normal and pretty much arrest
forward speed then you pull the pitch to gently set her down...all this
happens very fast. A huey can store enough energy to autorotate, land then lift
off do a complete pedal turn and set back down... if it was empty to begin
with..
This is an issue I am wrestling with on my Avid with the clutch.. If I have an
engine out, I still fall like a rock with the prop windmilling and cant stop it.
See what's free at AOL.com (http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503).
> [b]
--------
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115474#115474
Message 21
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Since I am no longer building an airplane I have the following items for
sale in case anyone is interested--See below
Homebuilder's Items For Sale
Mike Couillard (719) 481-6282 couillard1@msn.com
* Mechanic's Hardware Kit and Cabinet with Lots of Extra Hardware
* Many extra items added to this kit that retails for $178
(Aircraft Spruce)
1 Extra hardware includes expensive items such as numerous
rod end bearings, clevis pins, drilled AN bolts, anchor nuts, tinnerman
fasteners, structural machine screws, Dzus and Camlock fasteners, and
loop type aluminum alloy clamps for securing hoses and wiring to
airframe
2 Sell for $120 OBO
* Comtronics Ultra Pro 2000 Helmet with Visor
* With built in boom mic and headset
1 Excellent Condition
2 Size: Medium 7 - 7 1/8
* Retail Value $279+$7.60 for visor (LEAF)
1 Sell for $170
* Delcom Air 960 VHF/AM Handheld Radio
* With new nicad battery, AC/DC charger, antenna, and cigarette
lighter plug
1 Excellent Condition
* Suitable for panel mounting
1 Sell for $180 OBO
* Quickie Antenna Kit (good for mounting an antenna inside a
wooden or composite fuselage)--$22.15 @ Aircraft Spruce-Sell for $15
* 16 Scotch Bright Pads (3M 7447, Magenta)-Nearly full box! Sell
for $15
1 Harbor Freight Model 34231 Bench Top Drill Press (1/3 HP)-Sell
for $40
2 Books:
* Aircraft Sheet Metal (Aviation Technician Training Series) $5
1 Aircraft Electrical Systems (Aviation Technician
Training Series) $5
2 Standard Aircraft Handbook $8
3 Aircraft Mechanic's Digest $8
4 Kitplane Construction (Ron Wanttaja) $12
5 Polyfiber How to Cover An Aircraft-Free!
* Tony Bingelis 3 Book Set: The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane
Construction Techniques, and Firewall Forward ($19.95 each @ Aircraft
Spruce)-Sell set for $35
* Homebuilder Tool Kit (all tools in new condition)
* Florian Fabric Pinker-Retail $35.95-Sell $23
1 Cable Swaging Tool #2 $16.95 Retail-Sell $10
2 Shaviv Deburring Tool Retail $19.95-Sell $10
3 ATS Speed Deburring Tool, extension & extra bit Retail
$25.95-Sell $20
4 Set of Reamers for Kitfox and hand chuck-Sell for $45
5 Assorted Cleco set and Pliers-$25
6 One Touch Tach CerMark $54.95 list-Sell for $40
7 Plexiglass Cleaner and Microfiber Cloth-Sell for $5
* Consolidated Devices, Inc. (CDI) Dial Torque Wrench Model 6002
LDIN KL45 (0 to 600 inch pounds range) Retail $207-Sell for $150
1 Leading Edge Airfoil Prop Balancing Tool-Sell for $5
* Purolator F21124 Fuel Filter for Mini Max-Sell for $3
* 32 count pint containers of Pennzoil 2 cycle oil (meets
specification HIPHA 324280/07145; NMMA TC-W/TC-WII/TC-W3)-All for $30
* 2 new-B8ES NGK Spark Plugs-Sell for $4
1 12 slightly used B8ES NGK Spark Plugs with 20 hours engine
time-All for $10
Mike Couillard
Mike Couillard
Business Development Manager
Aleut Management Services
5520 Tech Center Dr., Ste. 200
Colorado Springs CO 80919
Ph (719) 262-7196 / Fax (719) 623-0538
mike.couillard@aleutmgt.com
www.aleutmgt.com <http://www.aleutmgt.com/>
Our Service Today, Tomorrow's Benchmark!
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: S5 912S overheating - cowling? |
My model 5 with 7 fwf 912uls is running very warm now that summer is arriving.
How successful has opening the cowl exit been at lowering your temps? Do you have
any overlap between the bottom of the cowl and the lower edge of the firewall?
I fabricated a heat sink for the oil tank in an attempt to cool it down
a little, but only saw a few degree difference.
--------
Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs
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