Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:18 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (Rick)
2. 06:25 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (john oakley)
3. 06:40 AM - Drilling Holes In Stainless (Norm)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (Lowell Fitt)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (Cudnohufsky's)
6. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (Cudnohufsky's)
7. 07:58 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (Vic Baker)
8. 08:42 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (Guy Buchanan)
9. 09:16 AM - Wire ? (Andy Fultz)
10. 09:38 AM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (darinh)
11. 11:54 AM - Re: Wire ? (Dave G.)
12. 12:21 PM - Stuck on Spraying (Dan Billingsley)
13. 12:48 PM - Different heater questions?? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
14. 12:58 PM - Re: Wire ? (KFN102LG@aol.com)
15. 01:18 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Don Smythe)
16. 01:20 PM - polyfiber (Gerald Jantzi)
17. 01:29 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Vic Baker)
18. 01:34 PM - Re: polyfiber (Dan Billingsley)
19. 02:20 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (akflyer)
20. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Stuck on Spraying (Dan Billingsley)
21. 03:01 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Michael Logan)
22. 03:15 PM - Re: Wire ? (Lowell Fitt)
23. 03:19 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Dan Billingsley)
24. 03:32 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Don Smythe)
25. 03:42 PM - Re: Different heater questions?? (darinh)
26. 05:13 PM - Lynn Matteson's Trip (fox5flyer)
27. 06:20 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Glenn Horne)
28. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Different heater questions?? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
29. 07:30 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (kirk hull)
30. 07:43 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Dan Billingsley)
31. 08:24 PM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (john oakley)
32. 08:33 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (john oakley)
33. 08:34 PM - Punch (john oakley)
34. 08:42 PM - Re: Series 7 heater questions?? (darinh)
35. 08:43 PM - Re: Drilling Holes In Stainless (darinh)
36. 09:03 PM - Re: Stuck on Spraying (Guy Buchanan)
37. 09:03 PM - Re: Re: Different heater questions?? (Guy Buchanan)
38. 10:34 PM - Re: Wire ? (Andy Fultz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Series 7 heater questions?? |
I used a drill first, go slow speed with pressure add lube if you like
with cutting oil. Then use the appropriate hole knock out punch. Much
cleaner. SS is difficult to cut. One inch will probably be OK if your
careful and have a good quality hole saw with metal cutting type teeth.
Dont go fast or you will burn up the teeth and or bit. What make a nice
clean hole if you dont want or have the hole punch is a step drill. You
can find them in and sizes. Good luck. OH be careful of what's on the
other side of the firewall. Sounds simple I know.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:02 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
First:
I am installing the cabin heating kit on my Series 7 and it required me
to cut/drill 2 - 1 inch holes in the SS firewall. I have a metal
flywheel cutter that works great on aluminum and mild steel but
stainless is a beast to drill or cut as it stress hardens with heat. Is
using the flywheel the best way to approach this? I am going to try it
tomorrow but don't want to flub up my firewall. I'm sure many have done
this so I thought I would as before I go forward with it.
Second:
The radiator (Earl's supplied with the heater kit) has two fittings for
the water that have an o-ring seal. The Kitfox manual says to use a
good quality thread sealer, while the Earl's installation instructions
for the radiator say to simply apply a good quality oil to the o-rings
and snug the fittings with a wrench. Do I need to use the thread
sealant and if so, can I use teflon tape? Seems like that would do the
trick and actually be overkill given the o-ring designed seal. Any
thoughts?
Thanks guys,
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116114#116114
11:22 AM
11:22 AM
Message 2
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| Subject: | Series 7 heater questions?? |
Darin,
I am still unpacking and setting up my shop at home, but, I thing I can find
my 1 inch punch. It is a clamshell thing and all you need is a 1/4" (I
think) hole then a wrench to tighten the clamshell. I am headed to Heber
city in the am; I could drop by or meet you.
Do not use the Teflon tape, bad use on an airplane. Teflon in a tube from
loctite can be found at a parts store, if you feel the need. (Napa)the o
rings will do the job just fine.
John Oakley
89 kitfox 4 speedster
750 hours now
Ogden ut
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
First:
I am installing the cabin heating kit on my Series 7 and it required me to
cut/drill 2 - 1 inch holes in the SS firewall. I have a metal flywheel
cutter that works great on aluminum and mild steel but stainless is a beast
to drill or cut as it stress hardens with heat. Is using the flywheel the
best way to approach this? I am going to try it tomorrow but don't want to
flub up my firewall. I'm sure many have done this so I thought I would as
before I go forward with it.
Second:
The radiator (Earl's supplied with the heater kit) has two fittings for the
water that have an o-ring seal. The Kitfox manual says to use a good
quality thread sealer, while the Earl's installation instructions for the
radiator say to simply apply a good quality oil to the o-rings and snug the
fittings with a wrench. Do I need to use the thread sealant and if so, can
I use teflon tape? Seems like that would do the trick and actually be
overkill given the o-ring designed seal. Any thoughts?
Thanks guys,
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116114#116114
Message 3
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| Subject: | Drilling Holes In Stainless |
My suggestion comes from advice given by others and that is the use of a
step drill. Admitted they aren't cheap, but I believe you will find
them to be very useful in the building process. I found them to be
especially useful when drilling stainless. Nor
Norm Beauchamp
Kitfox S/5 1550
Corvair, Warp Drive
San Angelo, Tx
Rick wrote:
>
>I used a drill first, go slow speed with pressure add lube if you like
>with cutting oil. Then use the appropriate hole knock out punch. Much
>cleaner. SS is difficult to cut. One inch will probably be OK if your
>careful and have a good quality hole saw with metal cutting type teeth.
>Dont go fast or you will burn up the teeth and or bit. What make a nice
>clean hole if you dont want or have the hole punch is a step drill. You
>can find them in and sizes. Good luck. OH be careful of what's on the
>other side of the firewall. Sounds simple I know.
>
>Rick
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
Darin,
I think the manal was referring to the taper pipe fittings that were on the
earlier Earl's coolers. If yours has O-rings, I would go with the Earl's
instructions. Regarding the firewall hole. With what is in my shop, I
would try the fly cutter at the slowest speed possible. The punch would be
the best - no heat. I have had poor results with hole saws as they are very
rarely round and have always given me a hole somewhat larger than the
desired dimension.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 870 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:01 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
>
> I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
>
> First:
>
> I am installing the cabin heating kit on my Series 7 and it required me to
> cut/drill 2 - 1 inch holes in the SS firewall. I have a metal flywheel
> cutter that works great on aluminum and mild steel but stainless is a
> beast to drill or cut as it stress hardens with heat. Is using the
> flywheel the best way to approach this? I am going to try it tomorrow but
> don't want to flub up my firewall. I'm sure many have done this so I
> thought I would as before I go forward with it.
>
> Second:
>
> The radiator (Earl's supplied with the heater kit) has two fittings for
> the water that have an o-ring seal. The Kitfox manual says to use a good
> quality thread sealer, while the Earl's installation instructions for the
> radiator say to simply apply a good quality oil to the o-rings and snug
> the fittings with a wrench. Do I need to use the thread sealant and if
> so, can I use teflon tape? Seems like that would do the trick and
> actually be overkill given the o-ring designed seal. Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks guys,
>
> --------
> Darin Hawkes
> Series 7 (under Construction)
> 914 Turbo
> Ogden, Utah
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116114#116114
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
> I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
Darin,
Sounds like you have received some good advise already, knock out punches
work great just make sure they are sharp and close clearance for use on
stainless, another option is to drill a smaller hole than needed, again make
sure you have a sharp bit, use oil and turn the bit slow with lots of
pressure, I also like to back up drilling light stainless with a block of
wood, and then use a dremel tool with a stone to finish out to your desired
size. However you make the hole you will want to debur any sharp edges and
also use a rubber grommet or sleeve in the hole to protect the fluid hoses.
Lloyd C
Upper Mich.
Mod 5 912ul
Maybe next Summer
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip |
Assuming that no one else minds, please post more.
>
> Luis Rodriguez
> 824KF
Luis,
I agree with you, I love to hear the adventures others are having with their
foxes, helps encourage me to make time to complete this project and get back
in the air. Otherwise it kind of sounds like we are all doing alot of work
and little play.
Lloyd Cudnohufsky
Mod 5 1550 912ul
Upper Mi.
Former Mod 4 Flyer
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
Darin,
I just recently installed the heater in my 7. I have the firewall and
engine mounted and did not want to remove to drill the two holes. First I
tried the step drill. It was not possible to get a clean hole and prevent
hole drift. I stopped before making a big mess. I then used a 1.25"
knockout punch to finish. Finally I installed 1.25" OD, .875" ID rubber
grommets. The heater's fittings fit tightly within these. Be sure to make
careful measurements - the fittings and grommets just clear the structural
tubing of the fuse. If you need a couple of grommets, send me your address,
I'll send them to you (I had to buy an entire bag of the silly things!).
Oh, I'll send a couple of photo's (digital via email) if you'd like.
Vic
Vic Baker
Carson City, Nv
K-7 912S Warp 80%
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
>
> > I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
>
> Darin,
> Sounds like you have received some good advise already, knock out punches
> work great just make sure they are sharp and close clearance for use on
> stainless, another option is to drill a smaller hole than needed, again
make
> sure you have a sharp bit, use oil and turn the bit slow with lots of
> pressure, I also like to back up drilling light stainless with a block of
> wood, and then use a dremel tool with a stone to finish out to your
desired
> size. However you make the hole you will want to debur any sharp edges and
> also use a rubber grommet or sleeve in the hole to protect the fluid
hoses.
>
> Lloyd C
> Upper Mich.
> Mod 5 912ul
> Maybe next Summer
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
At 11:01 PM 6/2/2007, you wrote:
>I am installing the cabin heating kit on my Series 7 and it required
>me to cut/drill 2 - 1 inch holes in the SS firewall.
I have a very thin hardened stainless firewall. It's very hard to
drill. For free-standing holes, (those drilled without benefit of a
backing plate, ) I start with a very small drill, on the order of
1/16" and drill a pilot hole. I then enlarge that to about 3/8" with
a step drill. I then go larger with a Dremel and burr. I have found
that no matter how sharp my drills, they cause the hole to divot. (No
backing plate.) And no matter how sharp my step drills, they drill an
out-of-round hole. (Again, no backing plate.) So I use the burr to
enlarge to a marked line. It's not perfect, but the best I could get
without a backing plate.
I never considered using a punch, as I though the stainless was way
too hard. It sounds like I should have tried that first. I would also
contact Murle Williams on this question. He's a perfectionist and has
probably figured the best way to drill large holes in free-standing stainless.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 9
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Good morning guys,
Who has the best prices on tefzel wire. I'm in need of some to finish the
wiring on my AVID and I'm trying to save every dime I can so I can buy fuel
later on. Thanks
Andy Fultz
AVID Speedwing (Extended)
STRATUS EA-81
Starkville, Ms
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
Thanks guys for the info. I will probably take John up on the punch as he lives
nearby. I will let you all know how it turns out.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116159#116159
Message 11
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You'll find the prices are very close. I'd just order from whoever you're
most comfortable with.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Fultz" <andynfultz@bellsouth.net>
<avid_flyer@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wire ?
>
> Good morning guys,
>
> Who has the best prices on tefzel wire. I'm in need of some to finish
> the
> wiring on my AVID and I'm trying to save every dime I can so I can buy
> fuel
> later on. Thanks
>
> Andy Fultz
> AVID Speedwing (Extended)
> STRATUS EA-81
> Starkville, Ms
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Stuck on Spraying |
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it seems
to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not going on
wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I can controll
it). It is a hot dry day outside.
I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box fan pulling
the air through.
I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm wondering if I
need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500 reducer.
A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts reducer...helped
a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough texture when
it drys.
My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the fabric as
I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and buying a
new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
Message 13
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| Subject: | Different heater questions?? |
How is the best way to plumb the heater? I have the cabin heater core in
parallel with my main engine radiator with a valve that can completely shut
off the flow to the cabin. I am not happy with the heat output. It does
well down to about 45 F outside temp, but then it gets cold!
This set up does allow some flow to the main radiator even when the flow
path is open to the cabin. I have been wondering about putting a flow
constrictor in the path through the main radiator or putting a thermostat on
that loop. I don't like complicating things like that,,, but...
Or should it be plumbed to have the full flow through the cabin with no way
to shut it off?
Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH
Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore
Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors
Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip
Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004
Message 14
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I'd try Stein-air, check out the web site. Good prices and excellent
selection.
Click Here: Check out "SteinAir Store. Avionics, Wire, Terminals, and
Hombuilding Supplies"
Larry
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
http://www.polyfiber.com/products/br8600blushretarder.htm
Check the above site. Poly Fiber once told me to use 4 oz per qt.
Works well to prevent what you are talking about.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Billingsley
To: kitfox-list
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush
and it seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It
is not going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book
says).
The factors:
a.. The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage
so I can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
b.. I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a
box fan pulling the air through.
c.. I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
d.. I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
e.. I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber
RR8500 reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3
to 2 parts reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending
up with a rough texture when it drys.
f.. My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from
the fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and
buying a new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
Message 16
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is there any other paint cleaning products I can use such as alcohol etc besides
the c2210 paint cleaning solvent gerry
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
Dan,
I used the Sharpe Finnex HVLP with success. But I did have all kinds of
trouble with it, about 2/3 of the way through the painting process I
came real close to just buying the Binks - but - my budget said no. If
you go with an upgrade to your gun, talk to the people your buying it
from, they will set you up with the proper tip size. I can tell you it
takes some practice, and good lighting - you've got to see the
reflection of the lights as you go otherwise you can't see how much is
going on. At one point my EAA tech fellow suggested I increase the
RR8500 ratio - mistake - the paint runs easily. I finally ended up with
the BR8600 additive to slow drying - that works well. But be careful -
it also tends to run. Try to always shoot onto a horizontal surface.
Advise wise - got most of the good stuff from John McBean - don't be
afraid to call him.
Vic
Vic Baker
Carson City, Nv
K-7 912S Warp 80%
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Billingsley
To: kitfox-list
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush
and it seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It
is not going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book
says).
The factors:
a.. The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage
so I can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
b.. I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a
box fan pulling the air through.
c.. I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
d.. I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
e.. I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber
RR8500 reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3
to 2 parts reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending
up with a rough texture when it drys.
f.. My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from
the fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and
buying a new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
Message 18
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If you are just cleaning up...MEK works great.
Dan
Gerald Jantzi <gvjantzi@yahoo.com> wrote:
is there any other paint cleaning products I can use such as alcohol etc besides
the c2210 paint cleaning solvent gerry
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
when you say small cheapo are you talking about the 10.00 touch up gun?? It so,
they are really not intended for doing large areas. With that said, do you have
different tips. You should also be able to turn the front adjuster ring to
change the spray pattern. Try bringing it in so it is a narrower pattern.
How much hose do you have, and is the air hot? If you compressor is running all
the time, the air can get very hot and that will screw you up too. Alot of
times, you can add more hose and it will cool down by the time it hits the gun.
Do you have the stop screw turned all the way out so you are getting maximum
flow on the paint?
As was mentioned, make sure you have the lights set up so you can look into the
suface and see the glare as you are laying the paint down. I used a dual head
halogen work light so I could adjust it any way I needed to.
What model gun do you have? It may help us to help you if we know for sure the
equipment we are dealing with.
--------
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116209#116209
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
Thanks Leonard,
Yes, I have the small touch-up gun (gravity feed) and that was my concern. I
wasn't sure if it would be an issue, but apparently it is. I have been looking
on line and educating myself a bit more and as you indicated, the tips will make
a difference as well. I thank all the responses and I may try using the blush
retarder if I still have trouble after getting the new gun.
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ
KF-IV, 912s
akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
when you say small cheapo are you talking about the 10.00 touch up gun?? It so,
they are really not intended for doing large areas. With that said, do you have
different tips. You should also be able to turn the front adjuster ring to
change the spray pattern. Try bringing it in so it is a narrower pattern. How
much hose do you have, and is the air hot? If you compressor is running all the
time, the air can get very hot and that will screw you up too. Alot of times,
you can add more hose and it will cool down by the time it hits the gun. Do
you have the stop screw turned all the way out so you are getting maximum flow
on the paint?
As was mentioned, make sure you have the lights set up so you can look into the
suface and see the glare as you are laying the paint down. I used a dual head
halogen work light so I could adjust it any way I needed to.
What model gun do you have? It may help us to help you if we know for sure the
equipment we are dealing with.
--------
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116209#116209
Message 21
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| Subject: | Stuck on Spraying |
Dan,
I see that everyone else is giving you good advice. I used the blush
retarder and it helped tremendously to slow down the drying. You might also
trying cooling it down in your paint booth. If it is hot and dry, the paint
will have a tendency to dry even before it hits the surface. I painted my
plane in the winter time and spent a lot of time and money heating my paint
booth up to the recommended temperature. One day I did not have time to let
it get to full temperature and the surface came out looking better than when
sprayed at a higher temp.
Mike Logan
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it
seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not
going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
* The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I
can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
* I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box
fan pulling the air through.
* I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
* I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
* I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500
reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts
reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough
texture when it drys.
* My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the
fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and buying a
new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
Message 22
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|
Andy,
Not sure this is the best place, but they sell Tefzel in lots of colors
which can make wiring a bit easier. Take a look at:
http://www.steinair.com/wire.htm
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Fultz" <andynfultz@bellsouth.net>
<avid_flyer@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wire ?
>
> Good morning guys,
>
> Who has the best prices on tefzel wire. I'm in need of some to finish
> the
> wiring on my AVID and I'm trying to save every dime I can so I can buy
> fuel
> later on. Thanks
>
> Andy Fultz
> AVID Speedwing (Extended)
> STRATUS EA-81
> Starkville, Ms
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Stuck on Spraying |
Thanks Mike,
Good thought on getting the temp down. Probably be best to paint in the early
mornings and cool things down even more that way. I have heard (for the paint)
if it is refrigerated it helps alot with the finish as well.
Dan
Michael Logan <michael.logan@cox.net> wrote:
Dan,
I see that everyone else is giving you good advice. I used the blush retarder
and it helped tremendously to slow down the drying. You might also trying cooling
it down in your paint booth. If it is hot and dry, the paint will have
a tendency to dry even before it hits the surface. I painted my plane in the
winter time and spent a lot of time and money heating my paint booth up to the
recommended temperature. One day I did not have time to let it get to full
temperature and the surface came out looking better than when sprayed at a higher
temp.
Mike Logan
---------------------------------
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it seems
to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not going on
wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I can controll
it). It is a hot dry day outside.
I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box fan pulling
the air through.
I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm wondering if I
need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500 reducer.
A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts reducer...helped
a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough texture when
it drys.
My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the fabric as
I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and buying a
new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
If you already have some areas that are feeling rough due to the dry
overspray you might try this after about 30 days of paint curing. Get
some 2000 grit wet/dry sand paper (or finer if you can find it). LIGHTLY
wash the plane with warm soapy water and the fine grit paper. I said
LIGHTLY. Go even lighter than light over the solid areas like rib caps.
This will put an outstanding smooth finish on the paint job. I'm
speaking of Poly Tone paint.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Logan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
Dan,
I see that everyone else is giving you good advice. I used the blush
retarder and it helped tremendously to slow down the drying. You might
also trying cooling it down in your paint booth. If it is hot and dry,
the paint will have a tendency to dry even before it hits the surface.
I painted my plane in the winter time and spent a lot of time and money
heating my paint booth up to the recommended temperature. One day I did
not have time to let it get to full temperature and the surface came out
looking better than when sprayed at a higher temp.
Mike Logan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:21 PM
To: kitfox-list
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush
and it seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It
is not going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book
says).
The factors:
a.. The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage
so I can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
b.. I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a
box fan pulling the air through.
c.. I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
d.. I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
e.. I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber
RR8500 reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3
to 2 parts reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending
up with a rough texture when it drys.
f.. My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from
the fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and
buying a new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Different heater questions?? |
Randy,
I have been contemplating the same thing with my heater setup. In my Model 3,
the builder installed a valve in the supply line as you have done to keep the
cabin from getting hot in the summer. In the winter, it would do fine to about
45 degrees as you have stated. The problem was that in the winter, the engine
coolant simply would not get hot enough to heat the cabin below this temp.
To remedy the problem, he installed a cabin actuated baffle over the main radiator
that he could adjust open or closed or somewhere in between to maintain
a higher temp from the main radiator. This seemed to work well as I flew it in
some pretty cold temps (10 to 20 degrees) and it kept the cabin fairly comfortable.
I guess a thermastat would accomplish the same thing and probably easier
to install but less controllable.
A question for you: Where have you installed your shut-off valve to the heater
core? I got looking at the setup and the only place one will go is on the engine
side of the firewall. That makes it a bit tough to turn on the heat inflight
if the temps drop. Is there some type of cable actuated valve that could
be installed with a pull type handle in the cabin to open the valve and allow
the hot coolant to go through the heater core?
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116231#116231
Message 26
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| Subject: | Lynn Matteson's Trip |
I just got off the phone with Lynn. After remaining at Hondo TX yesterday
to attend the first EAA flyin of the year, he left this morning following
Hwy 10 west. He covered 527 statute miles in 6.8 hours with three stops,
landing to RON at Fabens TX, just east of El Paso. He had a relatively
smooth ride most of the way and kept his altitude around 6.5 until he got
closer to El Paso when he climbed to 10.5 to get plenty of room for the
higher ground he was encountering. I think he said the hills were around
6.5 or so.
He received a small surprise landing at Fabens as the airport attendant had
him landing with a slight tailwind, which was no problem, but failed to tell
him that the runway had a 50' downslope. That and the tailwind caused him
to float most of the 4200' runway. Fabens is also the home of astronaut
Frank Borman.
The ride was good for the most part and the Jabiru purred sweetly. Tomorrow
his aim is Blythe CA, but he's not sure he'll be able to make it that far.
Lynn has no "get there" pressures on him and is just taking his time,
meeting lots of people, and making plenty of stops. His spirits are
positive and he's getting plenty of rest. So far, no problems.
Total air miles to date, 2031. Total hours, 22.7.
Deke Morisse
N148DM
S5/Soob/CAP
NE Michigan
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
The setting of 20 lbs is fine if you are using a HVLP gravity feed
spray gun. If you are using
a regular gun you need around 45 lbs at the gun. If its going on dry
add a little more material ( Poly brush).
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Billingsley
To: kitfox-list
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush
and it seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It
is not going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book
says).
The factors:
a.. The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage
so I can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
b.. I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a
box fan pulling the air through.
c.. I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
d.. I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
e.. I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber
RR8500 reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3
to 2 parts reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending
up with a rough texture when it drys.
f.. My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from
the fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and
buying a new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Different heater questions?? |
Darin,
My shut off valve is cable activated and is located on the cabin side of the
firewall just ahead of the heater core. I got the valve and the cable at a
NAPA store.
I just think that a lot of the flow still goes through the radiator rather
than through my heater.
Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH
Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore
Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors
Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip
Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:42 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Different heater questions??
Randy,
I have been contemplating the same thing with my heater setup. In my Model
3, the builder installed a valve in the supply line as you have done to keep
the cabin from getting hot in the summer. In the winter, it would do fine
to about 45 degrees as you have stated. The problem was that in the winter,
the engine coolant simply would not get hot enough to heat the cabin below
this temp. To remedy the problem, he installed a cabin actuated baffle over
the main radiator that he could adjust open or closed or somewhere in
between to maintain a higher temp from the main radiator. This seemed to
work well as I flew it in some pretty cold temps (10 to 20 degrees) and it
kept the cabin fairly comfortable. I guess a thermastat would accomplish
the same thing and probably easier to install but less controllable.
A question for you: Where have you installed your shut-off valve to the
heater core? I got looking at the setup and the only place one will go is
on the engine side of the firewall. That makes it a bit tough to turn on
the heat inflight if the temps drop. Is there some type of cable actuated
valve that could be installed with a pull type handle in the cabin to open
the valve and allow the hot coolant to go through the heater core?
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116231#116231
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Stuck on Spraying |
Or if it is going on dry you can add a longer hose from the blower to the
gun. In the case of the HVLP that I used a piece of garden hose worked.
This is what the HVLP manufacturer suggested to help cool off the air going
to the gun.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Horne
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
The setting of 20 lbs is fine if you are using a HVLP gravity feed spray
gun. If you are using
a regular gun you need around 45 lbs at the gun. If its going on dry add a
little more material ( Poly brush).
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan <mailto:dan@azshowersolutions.com> Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it
seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not
going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
* The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I
can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
* I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box
fan pulling the air through.
* I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
* I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
* I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500
reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts
reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough
texture when it drys.
* My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the
fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and buying a
new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
Thanks Glenn, I started at 40 lbs and went down in pressure. I may try going up
as I am using a conventional system (compressor). I do have a big enough tank
so the air has enough time to cool along with 100' of hose so I think I'm ok
there. I was able to find a Binks model 62 on E-Bay at a reasonable price so I
will be able to try again in a few days. Thanks all for the tips and ideas!
Dan Billingsley
KF-IV, 912s
Mesa, AZ
Glenn Horne <glennflys@verizon.net> wrote:
The setting of 20 lbs is fine if you are using a HVLP gravity feed spray
gun. If you are using
a regular gun you need around 45 lbs at the gun. If its going on dry add a little
more material ( Poly brush).
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Billingsley
To: kitfox-list
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it seems
to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not going on
wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I can controll
it). It is a hot dry day outside.
I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box fan pulling
the air through.
I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm wondering if I
need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500 reducer.
A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts reducer...helped
a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough texture when
it drys.
My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the fabric as
I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have exhausted my knowledge / guesses other than going out and buying a
new spray gun. Anyone have any other thoughts?
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ / KF-IV, 912s
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Series 7 heater questions?? |
Vic,
I think an attachment picture would be proper on the list for everyone. This
is a building list.
John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic Baker
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
Darin,
I just recently installed the heater in my 7. I have the firewall and
engine mounted and did not want to remove to drill the two holes. First I
tried the step drill. It was not possible to get a clean hole and prevent
hole drift. I stopped before making a big mess. I then used a 1.25"
knockout punch to finish. Finally I installed 1.25" OD, .875" ID rubber
grommets. The heater's fittings fit tightly within these. Be sure to make
careful measurements - the fittings and grommets just clear the structural
tubing of the fuse. If you need a couple of grommets, send me your address,
I'll send them to you (I had to buy an entire bag of the silly things!).
Oh, I'll send a couple of photo's (digital via email) if you'd like.
Vic
Vic Baker
Carson City, Nv
K-7 912S Warp 80%
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 7 heater questions??
>
> > I have two questions related to the cabin heater install in my Series 7.
>
> Darin,
> Sounds like you have received some good advise already, knock out punches
> work great just make sure they are sharp and close clearance for use on
> stainless, another option is to drill a smaller hole than needed, again
make
> sure you have a sharp bit, use oil and turn the bit slow with lots of
> pressure, I also like to back up drilling light stainless with a block of
> wood, and then use a dremel tool with a stone to finish out to your
desired
> size. However you make the hole you will want to debur any sharp edges and
> also use a rubber grommet or sleeve in the hole to protect the fluid
hoses.
>
> Lloyd C
> Upper Mich.
> Mod 5 912ul
> Maybe next Summer
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Stuck on Spraying |
Hi Guys,
Have you guys seen the shutters available for the fox, both the radiator and
the oil cooler, Lowell would not blow his own horn, I will.
http://highwingllc.com/
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
Thanks Glenn, I started at 40 lbs and went down in pressure. I may try going
up as I am using a conventional system (compressor). I do have a big enough
tank so the air has enough time to cool along with 100' of hose so I think
I'm ok there. I was able to find a Binks model 62 on E-Bay at a reasonable
price so I will be able to try again in a few days. Thanks all for the tips
and ideas!
Dan Billingsley
KF-IV, 912s
Mesa, AZ
Glenn Horne <glennflys@verizon.net> wrote:
The setting of 20 lbs is fine if you are using a HVLP gravity feed spray
gun. If you are using
a regular gun you need around 45 lbs at the gun. If its going on dry add a
little more material ( Poly brush).
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan <mailto:dan@azshowersolutions.com> Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stuck on Spraying
I thought I would throw this one out to those who have gone before...
I am currently trying to do my first spraying of the the Poly Brush and it
seems to be drying too quickly prior to hitting the elevator. It is not
going on wet enough to make the surface look wet (as the book says).
The factors:
* The ambient temp is about 75 degrees (I have an AC in my garage so I
can controll it). It is a hot dry day outside.
* I built a spray booth that has air filtered in and out with a box
fan pulling the air through.
* I am using a chepo spray gun (small) from Harbor Feight. I'm
wondering if I need to go get a better gun. I have it wide open.
* I'm using a pressure setting of 20 lbs
* I started with the mix of 3 Poly Brush to 1 part Poly Fiber RR8500
reducer. A friend suggested I increase the reducer so I did to 3 to 2 parts
reducer...helped a little...still not wet enough. I'm ending up with a rough
texture when it drys.
* My technique is to hold the sprayer about 5-6 inches away from the
fabric as I make a pass. I have tried going slower...nada.
So I have
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Darin,
I am home and looking.
jo
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| Subject: | Re: Series 7 heater questions?? |
I have made the holes, one turned out ok the other turned out perfect. Here is
what I did.
1st hole: Pilot drilled to 1/4" starting with a #40 and working up in steps spinning
the drill very slowly with lots of pressure. Then I used the flywheel
cutter...ended up sharpening the cutter 3 or 4 times before I got the hole. Then
finished up with the dremel. I wouldn't try this method again.
2nd hole: Drilled the same pilot hole as before but then used my Unibit and it
cut the stainless very easily. I used a 2x4 as a backing plate and drilled slowly.
The hole is very nice and clean with not warping of the stainless. This
is the recommended way if you don't have a laser or punch handy.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116287#116287
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling Holes In Stainless |
Agreed, these are invaluable tools in the building process. In fact, just bought
another today that goes up to 1 1/8"
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116288#116288
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| Subject: | Re: Stuck on Spraying |
At 07:42 PM 6/3/2007, you wrote:
>I was able to find a Binks model 62 on E-Bay at a reasonable price
>so I will be able to try again in a few days. Thanks all for the
>tips and ideas!
I can't over-emphasize the benefits of a good gun. For quality
spraying I purchased a SATA Minijet 4 HVLP gun as an upgrade from a
Home Depot Husky HVLP gun. It made an enormous difference, with much
better atomization. I don't know why. I spent a few hours hanging out
at the supply store where most of the local auto customizers buy
their wares and they reiterated the necessity for starting with good equipment.
One more thing. With HVLP guns, make sure you have a regulator at the
gun. Some come built in, but I added a small regulator to the SATA. I
then run 90 psi in the hose and 20 - 25 at the gun. I also put a
water separator and a HUGE desiccant dryer on my compressor. It might
have been overkill, but I don't like variables.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Re: Different heater questions?? |
At 03:41 PM 6/3/2007, you wrote:
>I guess a thermastat would accomplish the same thing and probably
>easier to install but less controllable.
Your problem is going to be that your heater core is installed in the
radiator circuit. Cars have their heater cores plumbed to the engine,
so they always see high temperatures, regardless of the thermostat
setting and therefore radiator temperature. Ideally you'd figure out
a way to circulate fluid out of the engine independently of the
radiator. I don't know if it's possible on a 912. If you have a blue
head 582 you can pick from the re-circulation hose. If a grey head
582 you can only tap into the radiator circuit and have to limit the
radiator air flow.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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Thanks guys. I'll check out SteinerAir.
Andy
Andy,
Not sure this is the best place, but they sell Tefzel in lots of colors
which can make wiring a bit easier. Take a look at:
http://www.steinair.com/wire.htm
Lowell
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