Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:44 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Mike)
2. 03:57 AM - oshkosk (Tex Mantell)
3. 04:52 AM - IO240 prop (W Duke)
4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: I'm home, safe and sound...off topic (Lynn Matteson)
5. 05:36 AM - Thanks to all who responded...off topic (Lynn Matteson)
6. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Landing light lense??? (kurt schrader)
7. 09:08 AM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kurt schrader)
8. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys)
9. 10:03 AM - King Fox Tires - new email address (Kevin Ridsdale)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (john oakley)
11. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (JC Propellerdesign)
12. 11:36 AM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys)
13. 11:39 AM - Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (George Wells)
14. 11:41 AM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kitfoxmike)
15. 01:31 PM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Michel Verheughe)
16. 01:56 PM - Re: IO240 prop (n85ae)
17. 03:08 PM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kitfoxmike)
18. 03:10 PM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys)
19. 04:46 PM - Re: oshkosk (kirk hull)
20. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Mike)
21. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Lowell Fitt)
22. 08:01 PM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (wingnut)
23. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Dan Billingsley)
24. 09:07 PM - Model V Info (Guy Buchanan)
25. 09:30 PM - Re: Model V Info (john oakley)
26. 09:36 PM - OT...Very Cool...ISS and Shuttle (Dan Billingsley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
Something that might be helpful....
On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and
gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and
balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy
process to go through.
My job involves running flight operations for an experimental
aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and
therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the
computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to
accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few
simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum
of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review
the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified
by the manufacturer.
All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be
one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I
highly recommend it!
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
> Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
> just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
> weighted.
>
> Jan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: josandt@verizon.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
> for Classic IV
>
>
> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always
> located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate
> weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why
> can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel
> weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to
> remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something
> here (this being my first build), but what is it?
>
> John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land
> of fruits and nuts)
>
> <<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
> <<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by
> mathematical <<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly
> ugger and jump <<head first into the math.=C2 nbsp; Features
> Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
> List">http://www.matron=================
=====
> bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 2
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If anybody is flying from the northeast to Oshkosh, 8 of us will be
flying from Rochester NY and welcome anyone with to fly along. We have a
variety of airplanes and will take two days to get there.
For more info contact me at wb2ssj@earthlink.net. Tex (kitfox N51TM)
Message 3
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I recently had about 6 inches of the leading edge resin separate from my standard
issue Skystar Sensenich prop (IO240 engine). They tell me it will be 3 weeks
to repair. Does anyone have a Sensenich prop they would like to sell? Incidentally
they quote 12 weeks to get a new prop.
Maxwell Duke
Dublin, GA
S6/TD/IO240
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I'm home, safe and sound...off topic |
I kinda think it would, but the right front cylinder is almost
touching the cowl. But an inch or so of forward movement of the cowl
would clear it.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/293+ hrs
On Jun 19, 2007, at 10:27 PM, Don G wrote:
>
> Glad you got home safe and sound Lynn, and didnt bend anything on
> that good lookin bird!
> Speakin of good-lookin, that cowl you have on it...
> Is that the cowl that jabiru sells?
> Do you know if it will fit on a 912 powered Speedster?
>
> --------
> Don G.
> Central Illinois
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Luscombe 8A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Thanks to all who responded...off topic |
I'm gonna go to the EAA chapter and be "debriefed" this morning, so
I'll get back online later on, but in the meantime, thanks for all
the good wishes, and it was quite an adventure, and I'll write up
what I haven't reported to Deke along the way, including a couple of
"I learned about flying from that" encounters along the way.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/293+ hrs
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Landing light lense??? |
Hi Darin,
Very interesting. They came up with a balast that can
pulse! Great lights, but I wish the price was lower.
$500+ ???
Got them on my car and you are right. They seem to go
3 miles on high beam. Hardly used though, or I blind
the oncoming guys even far out.
Kurt Schrader
S-5/NSI turbo
Florida and panama
Do not archive
--- darinh <gerns25@netscape.net> wrote:
> Kurt,
>
> You may be right for many systems but a company here
> in Ogden, Utah (www.XeVision.com) has a system that
> pulses the HID lights very well........
> Darin Hawkes
> Series 7 (under Construction)
> 914 Turbo
> Ogden, Utah
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic |
IV
Noel,
You've got it made. Just mark your floats fore and
aft for displacement and balance....use fine
graduations...... our Michel in Norway probably has
the formulas to use.
Need calm waters....
Floats nose down = FWD CG :-)
Floats nose up = AFT CG (-:
Floats under water = over gross :-(
Kurt Schrader
S-5/NSI turbo
Florida and panama
Just kidding
Do not archive
--- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Luis I like the idea of driving the plane up on the
> scales before every flight... I'm on floats :-)
>
> Not only that, on wheels my weight would disappear
> from the plane when I got out to read the scales :-)
>
> Why didn't I think of that???
> Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
> Campbellton, Newfoundland,
> Canada
> Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
> Aerocet 1100s
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in
reserve to
cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep the
paperwork,
which can be considerable, down. The flight log designates which W&B is
in
effect at any given time. Helicopters and spray plane may also have
additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different
equipment.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
Something that might be helpful....
On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
Balance
Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you
all
the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your
aircraft.
As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through.
My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft,
where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore
weight
and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us
to
put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any
aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and
Distance
of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the
aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is
within
the range specified by the manufacturer.
All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one
of
the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly
recommend
it!
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
weighted.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:josandt@verizon.net> josandt@verizon.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
josandt@verizon.net>
I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always located
a
set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate weight and
balance
by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why can't you just put
scales
under all the wheels, then say nose wheel weight must not exceed a
certain
percentage of total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm
probably
missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it?
John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land of
fruits
and nuts)
<<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
<<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by mathematical
<<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly ugger and jump <<head
first into the math.=C2 nbsp; Features Subscriptions
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
====
=================
bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space">
-->
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW
MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | King Fox Tires - new email address |
To our Kitfox customers,
We still have 35 sets of tires remaining, as of July 1 the MiPPi Ultralight website
will no longer be operating. Our email address will be
ksridsdale@yahoo.com
The phone number is still the same 734-377-2670
Happy flying,
Kevin
Kevin Ridsdale <ksridsdale@mipowerparachute.com> wrote:
To our Kitfox customers,
MiPPi Ultralights would like to confirm the rumors
that we will be closing our doors probably by the end
of the month, when the remainder of our stock has been
sold. We have approx 90 of the 20x12x8 tires remaining
for sale, we are selling off some additional stock.
The bottom line is, we have lost too many OEM
customers in the past year to keep the doors open and
the cost of raw material and fuel cost we cannot
afford to stay open. The new LSA rule has not been
very helpful to the manufacturers or suppliers of
PPC's, Trikes, and some Fixed wing aircraft. The end
result instead of helping the industry, it pretty much
killed it!
We received a small shipment of 6" tires (these were
already spoken for, however the selling cost have
jumped to $85.00 per tire. The manufacturing price
for the 8" has also more than doubled. Other factors
are shipping increases from Fed Ex and USPS the bottom
line sales are down 80%.
We wish to thank everyone in the Kitfox community for
their support, we do not make this decision lightly.
Sincerely,
Kevin Ridsdale - President
MiPPi Ultralights
734-377-2670
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
When I built my fox, I put together an owners manual that covered many
W&B
options, as in short wings, long wings, with and with out floats and
skis
and baggage compartment under. This was accepted by the FAA.
John Oakley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in
reserve to
cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep the
paperwork,
which can be considerable, down. The flight log designates which W&B is
in
effect at any given time. Helicopters and spray plane may also have
additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different
equipment.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
Something that might be helpful....
On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
Balance
Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you
all
the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your
aircraft.
As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through.
My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft,
where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore
weight
and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us
to
put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any
aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and
Distance
of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the
aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is
within
the range specified by the manufacturer.
All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one
of
the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly
recommend
it!
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
weighted.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:josandt@verizon.net> josandt@verizon.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
josandt@verizon.net>
I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always located
a
set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate weight and
balance
by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why can't you just put
scales
under all the wheels, then say nose wheel weight must not exceed a
certain
percentage of total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm
probably
missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it?
John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land of
fruits
and nuts)
<<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
<<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by mathematical
<<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly ugger and jump <<head
first into the math.=C2 nbsp; Features Subscriptions
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
====
=================
bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space">
-->
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW
MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
MessageFor W&B you can use this spread sheet.
all you need is a datum, distance from datum to wheel(s) and datum to
wing leading edge, plus the MAC in case of constant cord wings MAC is
same as cord, use a weight and string to get the points down to floor
where it is eazy to measure, you can use 2 inch masking tape to mark it
on the floor. and the aircraft must be in the position stated by
designer. so one scale under each wheel.
And, close the hangar doors!
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in
reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep
the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight log
designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. Helicopters and
spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the
installation of different equipment.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
Classic IV
Something that might be helpful....
On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and
gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance
for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy process to go
through.
My job involves running flight operations for an experimental
aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and
therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the
computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to
accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few
simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of
the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B
data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the
manufacturer.
All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be
one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly
recommend it!
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
weighted.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: josandt@verizon.net
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight &
balance for Classic IV
I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always
located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate
weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why
can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel
weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to remain
inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something here (this
being my first build), but what is it?
John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA
(land of fruits and nuts)
<<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
for <<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by
mathematical <<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly ugger
and jump <<head first into the math.=C2 nbsp; Features
Subscriptions
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
======================
bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space">
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic |
IV
It's easier than that...
When I get aboard of the plane if it floats too nose down (never
happened) I
am nose heavy and if the sterns of the floats dip under then I'm too
tail
heavy... All I have to do is watch how much I load into the plane. Also
the
more weight I put in the plane the further back the CG moves so seeing
the
tails of the floats dip would mean I'm waaay over loaded.
Never the less, I still do my W&B before each flight... Never know when
I'll
fly another plane... maybe even on wheels or skis.
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> kurt schrader
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:38 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight &
> balance for Classic IV
>
>
> Noel,
>
> You've got it made. Just mark your floats fore and
> aft for displacement and balance....use fine
> graduations...... our Michel in Norway probably has
> the formulas to use.
>
> Need calm waters....
>
> Floats nose down = FWD CG :-)
> Floats nose up = AFT CG (-:
> Floats under water = over gross :-(
>
> Kurt Schrader
> S-5/NSI turbo
> Florida and panama
>
> Just kidding
>
> Do not archive
>
> --- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > Luis I like the idea of driving the plane up on the
> > scales before every flight... I'm on floats :-)
> >
> > Not only that, on wheels my weight would disappear
> > from the plane when I got out to read the scales :-)
> >
> > Why didn't I think of that???
>
> > Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
> > Campbellton, Newfoundland,
> > Canada
> > Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
> > Aerocet 1100s
>
>
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
> vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://w
> ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>
>
> </b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip |
To my experience with FAA Guys at Spokane,Wa. FSDO is they are upfront
and very happy most of the time and I am sure it's not from making
people unhappy !!
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
That's funny, close the hangar doors. Sounds like me, whenever I do anything to
the fox, I close the hangar doors. Don't want anybody seeing what you're doing
do we. I'm serious here.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
"if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119682#119682
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic |
IV
On Jun 20, 2007, at 6:07 PM, kurt schrader wrote:
> ...... our Michel in Norway probably has the formulas to use.
Er ... I am not sure which formula you are referring to Kurt but ...
here is how it's done for yachts.
You design a hull (float) with a designed waterline i.e. what you wish
to be the waterline when built. From the section drawing and for each
station (traditionally divided in ten stations from bow to stern) you
use a planimeter to measure the surface of each of them under the water
line. Then you multiply it by what is called the Simpson's multiplier,
which is: 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 1. From that, you get the
function which you multiply by the arm (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
10) and get the moment.
Just like for the aircraft weight and balance, the sum of the moments
divided by the sum of the functions gives the center of longitudinal
buoyancy in sections from section 0 (there where the bow meets the
water).
If you want then have the seaplane to float on that waterline, you have
to balance your place (including the floats!) so that its center of
gravity is exactly over the center of buoyancy.
Another formula that can be used to calculate the displacement (which
is the actual weight of the plane), is: 2/3 x the sum of the functions
in feet x 16/9 x the station spacing in feet.
That will give you the volume in cubic feet, which when multiplied by
64 (for sea water) will give you the displacement in pounds.
If that calculation doesn't match your calculated weight, the seaplane
won't float on that waterline.
Now, a planimeter, which is an instrument made of articulated arms, a
lead weight and a counter, is not commonly found in not cheap to
purchase. Instead of that, one can divide the stations into small
geometric surfaces such as trapezes and triangles and calculate the
surface of each then add them.
... and if you want to know why I am using U.S. measures it is because
I learnt yacht design from someone who worked many years with Sparkman
and Stephens in New York! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 16
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Well, I wasn't planning to sell it, but if you are willing to pay me $5K
I'll overnite fedex the one on my plane :)
None here.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119703#119703
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
I just had a recolection of when I did the weight and balance on my plane. I measured
from the front of the wing to the bolt on the tail wheel and got something
like 161 and used this for the arm for the tail wheel. Now you should be
able to do the same with the nose wheel, but put a negative for the arm. I would
think, correct me if I'm wrong. also make sure and go straight out on the
measurment, not on an angle from wing to nose wheel.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
"if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119717#119717
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic |
IV
Michel:
The frightening part of all that is I think I followed all of it.
When I install floats for the first time I generally take one float and
fill
the front compartment with water until it floats level. Then I find the
CG
of it which is also the CB (centre of buoyancy) doing this in February
is
next to impossible!
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Michel Verheughe
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:00 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight &
> balance for Classic IV
>
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2007, at 6:07 PM, kurt schrader wrote:
> > ...... our Michel in Norway probably has the formulas to use.
>
> Er ... I am not sure which formula you are referring to Kurt but ...
> here is how it's done for yachts.
>
> You design a hull (float) with a designed waterline i.e. what
> you wish
> to be the waterline when built. From the section drawing and for each
> station (traditionally divided in ten stations from bow to stern) you
> use a planimeter to measure the surface of each of them under
> the water
> line. Then you multiply it by what is called the Simpson's
> multiplier,
> which is: 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 1. From that, you get the
> function which you multiply by the arm (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
> 10) and get the moment.
>
> Just like for the aircraft weight and balance, the sum of the moments
> divided by the sum of the functions gives the center of longitudinal
> buoyancy in sections from section 0 (there where the bow meets the
> water).
>
> If you want then have the seaplane to float on that
> waterline, you have
> to balance your place (including the floats!) so that its center of
> gravity is exactly over the center of buoyancy.
>
> Another formula that can be used to calculate the displacement (which
> is the actual weight of the plane), is: 2/3 x the sum of the
> functions
> in feet x 16/9 x the station spacing in feet.
> That will give you the volume in cubic feet, which when multiplied by
> 64 (for sea water) will give you the displacement in pounds.
>
> If that calculation doesn't match your calculated weight, the
> seaplane
> won't float on that waterline.
>
> Now, a planimeter, which is an instrument made of articulated arms, a
> lead weight and a counter, is not commonly found in not cheap to
> purchase. Instead of that, one can divide the stations into small
> geometric surfaces such as trapezes and triangles and calculate the
> surface of each then add them.
>
> ... and if you want to know why I am using U.S. measures it
> is because
> I learnt yacht design from someone who worked many years with
> Sparkman
> and Stephens in New York! :-)
>
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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I will be coming from Kansas city and stopping in brodhead for the antique
show on the way
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex Mantell
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:57 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: oshkosk
If anybody is flying from the northeast to Oshkosh, 8 of us will be flying
from Rochester NY and welcome anyone with to fly along. We have a variety of
airplanes and will take two days to get there.
For more info contact me at wb2ssj@earthlink.net. Tex (kitfox N51TM)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
Noel,
As a practical matter, we do basically the same thing. For various
configurations, we have weight and balance info. This info is always
reviewed pre-flight to make sure that we have the flight
configuration and the weight and balance in sync. Also, we have the
weight and balance data with us as soon as the aircraft is rolled out
of the hangar, in the event of a ramp check. Again, all data needs
to be logged, and checked pre-flight to insure safety. An airplane
that is out of weight and balance limits is not safe to fly. In my
mind this is one of the most basic things a pilot can do to ensure a
safe flight, along with the rest of the pre-fight checklist.
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in
> reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps
> keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight
> log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time.
> Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to
> designate the installation of different equipment.
>
> Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
> Classic IV
>
> Something that might be helpful....
>
> On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
> Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts,
> and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and
> balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy
> process to go through.
>
> My job involves running flight operations for an experimental
> aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and
> therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the
> computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to
> accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few
> simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the
> Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always
> review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range
> specified by the manufacturer.
>
> All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be
> one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I
> highly recommend it!
>
> Mike
>
> mclayton@rochester.rr.com
> Mobile: 585-737-5506
> 8 Adams Trail
> Spencerport, NY 14559
> N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
>
>> Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
>> just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
>> weighted.
>>
>> Jan
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: josandt@verizon.net
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
>> for Classic IV
>>
>>
>> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always
>> located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply
>> calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the
>> wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then
>> say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of
>> total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably
>> missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it?
>>
>> John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land
>> of fruits and nuts)
>>
>> <<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
>> for <<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by
>> mathematical <<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly
>> ugger and jump <<head first into the math.=C2 nbsp; Features
>> Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
>> List">http://www.matron================
======
>> bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">
>>
>>
>> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-
>> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
>> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-
>> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I
guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them.
When I licensed, I weighed/calculated for most adverse forward CG and most
adverse aft CG. Basically that limits me to about 25 pounds in my baggage
area. This info is in a packet with the airworthiness certificate and
resides under the seat cushion. With that known, any combination of
passengers, cargo and fuel load is OK as long as the baggage sack is loaded
under 25 lbs. and I am not over gross (which calculation I can pretty much
do in my head just by looking at my passenger. With that in mind, when I go
on one of the protracted cross countrys, I pack most personal gear in a back
pack that is strapped in the passenger seat. Then a careful loading of
ultra light back packing gear - four pound tent and 1.5 pound sleeping bag
etc. goes in the baggage sack - well under 25 lbs. I haven't done a W&B
calculation since I changed to the aluminum spring gear back in about 2000.
Personally, I don't feel that I am an unsafe pilot for doing it this way.
When I worked for UAL for a time, I was what they called a SOR, basically a
flight planner. I did W&B calculations for a living but these airplanes
spread the payload over a long tube - souls and cargo and a manifest for
each flight was required by law before departure and under the circumsances
was most certainly prudent. Sometimes we had to block seats and or move
passengers. Sometimes the aft cargo pit was not used. It all depended on
the specific situation - fuel load along a swept wing, etc.
Are those that are doing a W&B before each flight actually flying Kitfoxes?
There was a freighter that went down East of Sacramento ten years or so ago
due to a mis\-ballanced airplane or shifting cargo, but is anyone aware of a
Kitfox going down due to a loading problem. I am curious now. Have I been
doing this all wrong or am I just mis reading some of the comments.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 870 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <mclayton@rochester.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV
Noel,
As a practical matter, we do basically the same thing. For various
configurations, we have weight and balance info. This info is always
reviewed pre-flight to make sure that we have the flight
configuration and the weight and balance in sync. Also, we have the
weight and balance data with us as soon as the aircraft is rolled out
of the hangar, in the event of a ramp check. Again, all data needs
to be logged, and checked pre-flight to insure safety. An airplane
that is out of weight and balance limits is not safe to fly. In my
mind this is one of the most basic things a pilot can do to ensure a
safe flight, along with the rest of the pre-fight checklist.
Mike
mclayton@rochester.rr.com
Mobile: 585-737-5506
8 Adams Trail
Spencerport, NY 14559
N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in
> reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps
> keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight
> log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time.
> Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to
> designate the installation of different equipment.
>
> Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for
> Classic IV
>
> Something that might be helpful....
>
> On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and
> Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts,
> and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and
> balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy
> process to go through.
>
> My job involves running flight operations for an experimental
> aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and
> therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the
> computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to
> accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few
> simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the
> Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always
> review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range
> specified by the manufacturer.
>
> All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be
> one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I
> highly recommend it!
>
> Mike
>
> mclayton@rochester.rr.com
> Mobile: 585-737-5506
> 8 Adams Trail
> Spencerport, NY 14559
> N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress)
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:
>
>> Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)
>> just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be
>> weighted.
>>
>> Jan
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: josandt@verizon.net
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
>> for Classic IV
>>
>>
>> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always
>> located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply
>> calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the
>> wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then
>> say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of
>> total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably
>> missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it?
>>
>> John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land
>> of fruits and nuts)
>>
>> <<Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance
>> for <<Classic IV<<The only way I can see to find the CG is by
>> mathematical <<calculation... Level the plane, weigh the muggly
>> ugger and jump <<head first into the math. nbsp; Features
>> Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
>> List">http://www.matron======================
>> bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">
>>
>>
>> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-
>> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
>> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-
>> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
> I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I
> guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them.
Well said. When I bought my Kitfox, I played with the W&B charts enough to figure
out that as long as I didn't put anything in the luggage sack behind the seat,
there was no combination of pilot passenger or fuel that would put me outside
of the safe zone.. Assuming that I'm under gross. Since then, I only worry
about the W part of a W&B. Unfortunately, I'm heavy enough myself that I can't
carry full fuel and an FAA standard passenger so it is something I check often.
One day, I'm going to want to put some luggage back there and carry a passenger.
When that happens, I'll pull out the W&B charts again.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119751#119751
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV |
<is anyone aware of a
Kitfox going down due to a loading problem. >
Lowell,
If I remember right the KF Lite that the Banks Brothers built went down upon
takeoff due to an improper weight distribution. This can happen to any of us if
we get careless.
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ
KF-IV , 912-s 314DW
Building http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Build1.html
Message 24
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Hi all,
I'm looking for two things for a buddy just finishing his
model V/912ULS:
1. A three view drawing. (Required for registration or AC, I've forgotten.)
and
2. A pilot's operating handbook.
On the latter, we'd be happy to borrow one and copy, if necessary.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 25
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Guy,
I googled the other day looking for one for my fox 4 and behold one poped up
John Oakley
Fox 4 speedster short and long
912 ul with cap... working on supercharger for sea level performance
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model V Info
Hi all,
I'm looking for two things for a buddy just finishing his
model V/912ULS:
1. A three view drawing. (Required for registration or AC, I've forgotten.)
and
2. A pilot's operating handbook.
On the latter, we'd be happy to borrow one and copy, if necessary.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 26
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| Subject: | OT...Very Cool...ISS and Shuttle |
I was just able to go out and see the ISS and Space Shuttle Atlantis traveling together. If you go to this site http://www.heavens-above.com/main.aspx?Loc=Mesa&Lat=33.422&Lng=-111.822&Alt=386&TZ=Arizona you can figure the best time for your area. They are quite bright.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
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