---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/20/07: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:44 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Mike) 2. 03:57 AM - oshkosk (Tex Mantell) 3. 04:52 AM - IO240 prop (W Duke) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: I'm home, safe and sound...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 5. 05:36 AM - Thanks to all who responded...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 6. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Landing light lense??? (kurt schrader) 7. 09:08 AM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kurt schrader) 8. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys) 9. 10:03 AM - King Fox Tires - new email address (Kevin Ridsdale) 10. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (john oakley) 11. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (JC Propellerdesign) 12. 11:36 AM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys) 13. 11:39 AM - Re: Lynn Matteson's Trip (George Wells) 14. 11:41 AM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kitfoxmike) 15. 01:31 PM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Michel Verheughe) 16. 01:56 PM - Re: IO240 prop (n85ae) 17. 03:08 PM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (kitfoxmike) 18. 03:10 PM - Re: OT..Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Noel Loveys) 19. 04:46 PM - Re: oshkosk (kirk hull) 20. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Mike) 21. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Lowell Fitt) 22. 08:01 PM - Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (wingnut) 23. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV (Dan Billingsley) 24. 09:07 PM - Model V Info (Guy Buchanan) 25. 09:30 PM - Re: Model V Info (john oakley) 26. 09:36 PM - OT...Very Cool...ISS and Shuttle (Dan Billingsley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:22 AM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Something that might be helpful.... On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through. My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the manufacturer. All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly recommend it! Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: > Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) > just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be > weighted. > > Jan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: josandt@verizon.net > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM > Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance > for Classic IV > > > I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always > located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate > weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why > can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel > weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to > remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something > here (this being my first build), but what is it? > > John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land > of fruits and nuts) > > < < mathematical < ugger and jump < Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- > List">http://www.matron================= ===== > bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > > > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:58 AM PST US From: "Tex Mantell" Subject: Kitfox-List: oshkosk If anybody is flying from the northeast to Oshkosh, 8 of us will be flying from Rochester NY and welcome anyone with to fly along. We have a variety of airplanes and will take two days to get there. For more info contact me at wb2ssj@earthlink.net. Tex (kitfox N51TM) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:48 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Kitfox-List: IO240 prop I recently had about 6 inches of the leading edge resin separate from my standard issue Skystar Sensenich prop (IO240 engine). They tell me it will be 3 weeks to repair. Does anyone have a Sensenich prop they would like to sell? Incidentally they quote 12 weeks to get a new prop. Maxwell Duke Dublin, GA S6/TD/IO240 --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:04 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: I'm home, safe and sound...off topic I kinda think it would, but the right front cylinder is almost touching the cowl. But an inch or so of forward movement of the cowl would clear it. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/293+ hrs On Jun 19, 2007, at 10:27 PM, Don G wrote: > > Glad you got home safe and sound Lynn, and didnt bend anything on > that good lookin bird! > Speakin of good-lookin, that cowl you have on it... > Is that the cowl that jabiru sells? > Do you know if it will fit on a 912 powered Speedster? > > -------- > Don G. > Central Illinois > Kitfox IV Speedster > Luscombe 8A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:42 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Thanks to all who responded...off topic I'm gonna go to the EAA chapter and be "debriefed" this morning, so I'll get back online later on, but in the meantime, thanks for all the good wishes, and it was quite an adventure, and I'll write up what I haven't reported to Deke along the way, including a couple of "I learned about flying from that" encounters along the way. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/293+ hrs do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:29 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Landing light lense??? Hi Darin, Very interesting. They came up with a balast that can pulse! Great lights, but I wish the price was lower. $500+ ??? Got them on my car and you are right. They seem to go 3 miles on high beam. Hardly used though, or I blind the oncoming guys even far out. Kurt Schrader S-5/NSI turbo Florida and panama Do not archive --- darinh wrote: > Kurt, > > You may be right for many systems but a company here > in Ogden, Utah (www.XeVision.com) has a system that > pulses the HID lights very well........ > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (under Construction) > 914 Turbo > Ogden, Utah Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:53 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Noel, You've got it made. Just mark your floats fore and aft for displacement and balance....use fine graduations...... our Michel in Norway probably has the formulas to use. Need calm waters.... Floats nose down = FWD CG :-) Floats nose up = AFT CG (-: Floats under water = over gross :-( Kurt Schrader S-5/NSI turbo Florida and panama Just kidding Do not archive --- Noel Loveys wrote: > Luis I like the idea of driving the plane up on the > scales before every flight... I'm on floats :-) > > Not only that, on wheels my weight would disappear > from the plane when I got out to read the scales :-) > > Why didn't I think of that??? > Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern > Campbellton, Newfoundland, > Canada > Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA > Aerocet 1100s Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:53 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different equipment. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Something that might be helpful.... On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through. My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the manufacturer. All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly recommend it! Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be weighted. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: josandt@verizon.net Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV josandt@verizon.net> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it? John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land of fruits and nuts) <http://www.matron ==== ================= bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:02 AM PST US From: Kevin Ridsdale Subject: Kitfox-List: King Fox Tires - new email address To our Kitfox customers, We still have 35 sets of tires remaining, as of July 1 the MiPPi Ultralight website will no longer be operating. Our email address will be ksridsdale@yahoo.com The phone number is still the same 734-377-2670 Happy flying, Kevin Kevin Ridsdale wrote: To our Kitfox customers, MiPPi Ultralights would like to confirm the rumors that we will be closing our doors probably by the end of the month, when the remainder of our stock has been sold. We have approx 90 of the 20x12x8 tires remaining for sale, we are selling off some additional stock. The bottom line is, we have lost too many OEM customers in the past year to keep the doors open and the cost of raw material and fuel cost we cannot afford to stay open. The new LSA rule has not been very helpful to the manufacturers or suppliers of PPC's, Trikes, and some Fixed wing aircraft. The end result instead of helping the industry, it pretty much killed it! We received a small shipment of 6" tires (these were already spoken for, however the selling cost have jumped to $85.00 per tire. The manufacturing price for the 8" has also more than doubled. Other factors are shipping increases from Fed Ex and USPS the bottom line sales are down 80%. We wish to thank everyone in the Kitfox community for their support, we do not make this decision lightly. Sincerely, Kevin Ridsdale - President MiPPi Ultralights 734-377-2670 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:10 AM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV When I built my fox, I put together an owners manual that covered many W&B options, as in short wings, long wings, with and with out floats and skis and baggage compartment under. This was accepted by the FAA. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different equipment. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Something that might be helpful.... On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through. My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the manufacturer. All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly recommend it! Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be weighted. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: josandt@verizon.net Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV josandt@verizon.net> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it? John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land of fruits and nuts) <http://www.matron ==== ================= bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:21 AM PST US From: "JC Propellerdesign" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV MessageFor W&B you can use this spread sheet. all you need is a datum, distance from datum to wheel(s) and datum to wing leading edge, plus the MAC in case of constant cord wings MAC is same as cord, use a weight and string to get the points down to floor where it is eazy to measure, you can use 2 inch masking tape to mark it on the floor. and the aircraft must be in the position stated by designer. so one scale under each wheel. And, close the hangar doors! Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:24 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different equipment. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Something that might be helpful.... On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through. My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the manufacturer. All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I highly recommend it! Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be weighted. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: josandt@verizon.net To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it? John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land of fruits and nuts) <http://www.matron ====================== bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:43 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV It's easier than that... When I get aboard of the plane if it floats too nose down (never happened) I am nose heavy and if the sterns of the floats dip under then I'm too tail heavy... All I have to do is watch how much I load into the plane. Also the more weight I put in the plane the further back the CG moves so seeing the tails of the floats dip would mean I'm waaay over loaded. Never the less, I still do my W&B before each flight... Never know when I'll fly another plane... maybe even on wheels or skis. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > kurt schrader > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:38 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & > balance for Classic IV > > > Noel, > > You've got it made. Just mark your floats fore and > aft for displacement and balance....use fine > graduations...... our Michel in Norway probably has > the formulas to use. > > Need calm waters.... > > Floats nose down = FWD CG :-) > Floats nose up = AFT CG (-: > Floats under water = over gross :-( > > Kurt Schrader > S-5/NSI turbo > Florida and panama > > Just kidding > > Do not archive > > --- Noel Loveys wrote: > > > Luis I like the idea of driving the plane up on the > > scales before every flight... I'm on floats :-) > > > > Not only that, on wheels my weight would disappear > > from the plane when I got out to read the scales :-) > > > > Why didn't I think of that??? > > > Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern > > Campbellton, Newfoundland, > > Canada > > Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA > > Aerocet 1100s > > > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative > vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > 

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________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:19 AM PST US From: "George Wells" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lynn Matteson's Trip To my experience with FAA Guys at Spokane,Wa. FSDO is they are upfront and very happy most of the time and I am sure it's not from making people unhappy !! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV From: "kitfoxmike" That's funny, close the hangar doors. Sounds like me, whenever I do anything to the fox, I close the hangar doors. Don't want anybody seeing what you're doing do we. I'm serious here. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119682#119682 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:27 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV On Jun 20, 2007, at 6:07 PM, kurt schrader wrote: > ...... our Michel in Norway probably has the formulas to use. Er ... I am not sure which formula you are referring to Kurt but ... here is how it's done for yachts. You design a hull (float) with a designed waterline i.e. what you wish to be the waterline when built. From the section drawing and for each station (traditionally divided in ten stations from bow to stern) you use a planimeter to measure the surface of each of them under the water line. Then you multiply it by what is called the Simpson's multiplier, which is: 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 1. From that, you get the function which you multiply by the arm (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) and get the moment. Just like for the aircraft weight and balance, the sum of the moments divided by the sum of the functions gives the center of longitudinal buoyancy in sections from section 0 (there where the bow meets the water). If you want then have the seaplane to float on that waterline, you have to balance your place (including the floats!) so that its center of gravity is exactly over the center of buoyancy. Another formula that can be used to calculate the displacement (which is the actual weight of the plane), is: 2/3 x the sum of the functions in feet x 16/9 x the station spacing in feet. That will give you the volume in cubic feet, which when multiplied by 64 (for sea water) will give you the displacement in pounds. If that calculation doesn't match your calculated weight, the seaplane won't float on that waterline. Now, a planimeter, which is an instrument made of articulated arms, a lead weight and a counter, is not commonly found in not cheap to purchase. Instead of that, one can divide the stations into small geometric surfaces such as trapezes and triangles and calculate the surface of each then add them. ... and if you want to know why I am using U.S. measures it is because I learnt yacht design from someone who worked many years with Sparkman and Stephens in New York! :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 prop From: "n85ae" Well, I wasn't planning to sell it, but if you are willing to pay me $5K I'll overnite fedex the one on my plane :) None here. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119703#119703 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV From: "kitfoxmike" I just had a recolection of when I did the weight and balance on my plane. I measured from the front of the wing to the bolt on the tail wheel and got something like 161 and used this for the arm for the tail wheel. Now you should be able to do the same with the nose wheel, but put a negative for the arm. I would think, correct me if I'm wrong. also make sure and go straight out on the measurment, not on an angle from wing to nose wheel. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119717#119717 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:44 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Michel: The frightening part of all that is I think I followed all of it. When I install floats for the first time I generally take one float and fill the front compartment with water until it floats level. Then I find the CG of it which is also the CB (centre of buoyancy) doing this in February is next to impossible! Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michel Verheughe > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:00 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: OT..RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & > balance for Classic IV > > > > On Jun 20, 2007, at 6:07 PM, kurt schrader wrote: > > ...... our Michel in Norway probably has the formulas to use. > > Er ... I am not sure which formula you are referring to Kurt but ... > here is how it's done for yachts. > > You design a hull (float) with a designed waterline i.e. what > you wish > to be the waterline when built. From the section drawing and for each > station (traditionally divided in ten stations from bow to stern) you > use a planimeter to measure the surface of each of them under > the water > line. Then you multiply it by what is called the Simpson's > multiplier, > which is: 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 1. From that, you get the > function which you multiply by the arm (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, > 10) and get the moment. > > Just like for the aircraft weight and balance, the sum of the moments > divided by the sum of the functions gives the center of longitudinal > buoyancy in sections from section 0 (there where the bow meets the > water). > > If you want then have the seaplane to float on that > waterline, you have > to balance your place (including the floats!) so that its center of > gravity is exactly over the center of buoyancy. > > Another formula that can be used to calculate the displacement (which > is the actual weight of the plane), is: 2/3 x the sum of the > functions > in feet x 16/9 x the station spacing in feet. > That will give you the volume in cubic feet, which when multiplied by > 64 (for sea water) will give you the displacement in pounds. > > If that calculation doesn't match your calculated weight, the > seaplane > won't float on that waterline. > > Now, a planimeter, which is an instrument made of articulated arms, a > lead weight and a counter, is not commonly found in not cheap to > purchase. Instead of that, one can divide the stations into small > geometric surfaces such as trapezes and triangles and calculate the > surface of each then add them. > > ... and if you want to know why I am using U.S. measures it > is because > I learnt yacht design from someone who worked many years with > Sparkman > and Stephens in New York! :-) > > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:24 PM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: oshkosk I will be coming from Kansas city and stopping in brodhead for the antique show on the way _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex Mantell Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:57 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: oshkosk If anybody is flying from the northeast to Oshkosh, 8 of us will be flying from Rochester NY and welcome anyone with to fly along. We have a variety of airplanes and will take two days to get there. For more info contact me at wb2ssj@earthlink.net. Tex (kitfox N51TM) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:46 PM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Noel, As a practical matter, we do basically the same thing. For various configurations, we have weight and balance info. This info is always reviewed pre-flight to make sure that we have the flight configuration and the weight and balance in sync. Also, we have the weight and balance data with us as soon as the aircraft is rolled out of the hangar, in the event of a ramp check. Again, all data needs to be logged, and checked pre-flight to insure safety. An airplane that is out of weight and balance limits is not safe to fly. In my mind this is one of the most basic things a pilot can do to ensure a safe flight, along with the rest of the pre-fight checklist. Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in > reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps > keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight > log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. > Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to > designate the installation of different equipment. > > Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for > Classic IV > > Something that might be helpful.... > > On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and > Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, > and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and > balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy > process to go through. > > My job involves running flight operations for an experimental > aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and > therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the > computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to > accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few > simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the > Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always > review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range > specified by the manufacturer. > > All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be > one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I > highly recommend it! > > Mike > > mclayton@rochester.rr.com > Mobile: 585-737-5506 > 8 Adams Trail > Spencerport, NY 14559 > N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) > > > On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: > >> Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) >> just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be >> weighted. >> >> Jan >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: josandt@verizon.net >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM >> Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance >> for Classic IV >> >> >> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always >> located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply >> calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the >> wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then >> say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of >> total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably >> missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it? >> >> John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land >> of fruits and nuts) >> >> <> for <> mathematical <> ugger and jump <> Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- >> List">http://www.matron================ ====== >> bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> >> >> >> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted- >> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- >> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple- >> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com >> > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:27 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them. When I licensed, I weighed/calculated for most adverse forward CG and most adverse aft CG. Basically that limits me to about 25 pounds in my baggage area. This info is in a packet with the airworthiness certificate and resides under the seat cushion. With that known, any combination of passengers, cargo and fuel load is OK as long as the baggage sack is loaded under 25 lbs. and I am not over gross (which calculation I can pretty much do in my head just by looking at my passenger. With that in mind, when I go on one of the protracted cross countrys, I pack most personal gear in a back pack that is strapped in the passenger seat. Then a careful loading of ultra light back packing gear - four pound tent and 1.5 pound sleeping bag etc. goes in the baggage sack - well under 25 lbs. I haven't done a W&B calculation since I changed to the aluminum spring gear back in about 2000. Personally, I don't feel that I am an unsafe pilot for doing it this way. When I worked for UAL for a time, I was what they called a SOR, basically a flight planner. I did W&B calculations for a living but these airplanes spread the payload over a long tube - souls and cargo and a manifest for each flight was required by law before departure and under the circumsances was most certainly prudent. Sometimes we had to block seats and or move passengers. Sometimes the aft cargo pit was not used. It all depended on the specific situation - fuel load along a swept wing, etc. Are those that are doing a W&B before each flight actually flying Kitfoxes? There was a freighter that went down East of Sacramento ten years or so ago due to a mis\-ballanced airplane or shifting cargo, but is anyone aware of a Kitfox going down due to a loading problem. I am curious now. Have I been doing this all wrong or am I just mis reading some of the comments. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp 1998 870 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Noel, As a practical matter, we do basically the same thing. For various configurations, we have weight and balance info. This info is always reviewed pre-flight to make sure that we have the flight configuration and the weight and balance in sync. Also, we have the weight and balance data with us as soon as the aircraft is rolled out of the hangar, in the event of a ramp check. Again, all data needs to be logged, and checked pre-flight to insure safety. An airplane that is out of weight and balance limits is not safe to fly. In my mind this is one of the most basic things a pilot can do to ensure a safe flight, along with the rest of the pre-fight checklist. Mike mclayton@rochester.rr.com Mobile: 585-737-5506 8 Adams Trail Spencerport, NY 14559 N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in > reserve to cover the different gear configurations... Just helps > keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down. The flight > log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time. > Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to > designate the installation of different equipment. > > Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:14 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for > Classic IV > > Something that might be helpful.... > > On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and > Balance Handbook" It does a good job of explaining the concepts, > and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and > balance for your aircraft. As others have said, it is a very easy > process to go through. > > My job involves running flight operations for an experimental > aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and > therefore weight and balance. We maintain a spreadsheet on the > computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to > accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few > simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the > Datum of the aircraft. When we preflight the aircraft, we always > review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range > specified by the manufacturer. > > All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do. It will be > one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight. I > highly recommend it! > > Mike > > mclayton@rochester.rr.com > Mobile: 585-737-5506 > 8 Adams Trail > Spencerport, NY 14559 > N16AF (KF II Rebuild in Progress) > > > On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote: > >> Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way) >> just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be >> weighted. >> >> Jan >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: josandt@verizon.net >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM >> Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance >> for Classic IV >> >> >> I'm going to show my ignorance here. Since the wheels are always >> located a set distance fore and aft, why can't one simply >> calculate weight and balance by examining relative weights on the >> wheels? Why can't you just put scales under all the wheels, then >> say nose wheel weight must not exceed a certain percentage of >> total weight to remain inside CG envelope? I know I'm probably >> missing something here (this being my first build), but what is it? >> >> John Sandt / KF7 / Trigear / Corvair / BRS / Ridgecrest, CA (land >> of fruits and nuts) >> >> <> for <> mathematical <> ugger and jump <> Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- >> List">http://www.matron====================== >> bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com"> >> >> >> - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted- >> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- >> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple- >> converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com >> > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV From: "wingnut" > I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I > guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them. Well said. When I bought my Kitfox, I played with the W&B charts enough to figure out that as long as I didn't put anything in the luggage sack behind the seat, there was no combination of pilot passenger or fuel that would put me outside of the safe zone.. Assuming that I'm under gross. Since then, I only worry about the W part of a W&B. Unfortunately, I'm heavy enough myself that I can't carry full fuel and an FAA standard passenger so it is something I check often. One day, I'm going to want to put some luggage back there and carry a passenger. When that happens, I'll pull out the W&B charts again. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119751#119751 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:58 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV Lowell, If I remember right the KF Lite that the Banks Brothers built went down upon takeoff due to an improper weight distribution. This can happen to any of us if we get careless. Dan Billingsley Mesa, AZ KF-IV , 912-s 314DW Building http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Build1.html ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:56 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: Model V Info Hi all, I'm looking for two things for a buddy just finishing his model V/912ULS: 1. A three view drawing. (Required for registration or AC, I've forgotten.) and 2. A pilot's operating handbook. On the latter, we'd be happy to borrow one and copy, if necessary. Thanks, Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:25 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model V Info Guy, I googled the other day looking for one for my fox 4 and behold one poped up John Oakley Fox 4 speedster short and long 912 ul with cap... working on supercharger for sea level performance -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Model V Info Hi all, I'm looking for two things for a buddy just finishing his model V/912ULS: 1. A three view drawing. (Required for registration or AC, I've forgotten.) and 2. A pilot's operating handbook. On the latter, we'd be happy to borrow one and copy, if necessary. Thanks, Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:41 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Kitfox-List: OT...Very Cool...ISS and Shuttle I was just able to go out and see the ISS and Space Shuttle Atlantis traveling together. If you go to this site http://www.heavens-above.com/main.aspx?Loc=Mesa&Lat=33.422&Lng=-111.822&Alt=386&TZ=Arizona you can figure the best time for your area. They are quite bright. Dan B Mesa, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.