Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:57 AM - Re: EGT mal function (floran higgins)
2. 07:45 AM - Re: EGT mal function (Noel Loveys)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: EGT mal function (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
4. 08:57 AM - Re: grove landing gear (Jacques Voynaud)
5. 10:10 AM - Re: grove landing gear (kitfoxmike)
6. 01:33 PM - Re: EGT mal function (michel dierick)
7. 02:43 PM - Re: EGT mal function (Lowell Fitt)
8. 02:46 PM - Re: EGT mal function (Michel Verheughe)
9. 05:30 PM - What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ? (Marwynne Kuhn)
10. 05:34 PM - Re: [ Don Usher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (akflyer)
11. 05:35 PM - familiar rattlesnake (kkmachinery)
12. 05:36 PM - familiar rattlesnake (kkmachinery)
13. 06:08 PM - Re: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ? (kirk hull)
14. 06:11 PM - Re: Importation from Canada (Larry Martin)
15. 06:35 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re: What are the differenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?es between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q? Kitfox- =3F? (KFN102LG@aol.com)
16. 07:30 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__What_are_the_differences_between_a_Model_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?IV_1050_and_Model_1200_Kitfox-_=3F? (clemwehner)
17. 07:43 PM - Re: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ? (Clint Bazzill)
18. 08:42 PM - Re: EGT mal function (Noel Loveys)
19. 08:47 PM - Re: EGT mal function (Noel Loveys)
20. 09:13 PM - Re: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ? (clemwehner)
21. 09:40 PM - Re: EGT mal function (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
22. 10:13 PM - Re: EGT mal function (paul wilson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EGT mal function |
The thermocouples sometime burn out.
I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt
Speedster
912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord" to reach the
instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one or more of
witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is shot. Jim
Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
>From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
>
>Hi everybody,
>
> I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my Kitfox Classic
> III.
>
> I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT gauge. I -
> well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
> temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the reading of the
> first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
>
> As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT probes are
> well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made of metal touch
> each other while between de engine and the instrument.
>
>Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
>
> How did you guys solve this problem.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the weather isn't very
> "summer" today.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on
>all webmail accounts. Find out more.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 2
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| Subject: | EGT mal function |
So called "extension chords" of copper should never be used. By using a
copper wire extension you have just introduced resistances not to mention
four more couples to the circuit. Wires should be of continuous alloys from
the couple.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> floran higgins
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:25 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
>
> <cliffh@outdrs.net>
>
> The thermocouples sometime burn out.
> I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
>
> Floran Higgins
> Helena, Mt
> Speedster
> 912ULS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
>
> <thesupe@hotmail.com>
>
> The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord" to reach the
> instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one
> or more of
> witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
> thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is
> shot. Jim
> Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
>
>
> >From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
> >
> >Hi everybody,
> >
> > I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my
> Kitfox Classic
> > III.
> >
> > I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT
> gauge. I -
> > well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
> > temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the
> reading of the
> > first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
> >
> > As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT
> probes are
> > well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made
> of metal touch
> > each other while between de engine and the instrument.
> >
> >Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
> >
> > How did you guys solve this problem.
> >
> > Greetz,
> >
> > Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the
> weather isn't very
> > "summer" today.
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with
> unlimited storage on
> >all webmail accounts. Find out more.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm
> Initiative now.
> It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | EGT mal function |
I was refering to the extentions supplied with the gauges. Most
thermocouples I've seen are 4' long (to short to reach the gauge) and have
male ends. The connections on the gauge are also male. Therefore, you
need the extention to make the connection. Thanks, Jim Chuk Avid MK IV
>From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:12:35 -0230
>
>
>So called "extension chords" of copper should never be used. By using a
>copper wire extension you have just introduced resistances not to mention
>four more couples to the circuit. Wires should be of continuous alloys
>from
>the couple.
>
>Noel
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > floran higgins
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:25 AM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >
> >
> > <cliffh@outdrs.net>
> >
> > The thermocouples sometime burn out.
> > I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
> >
> > Floran Higgins
> > Helena, Mt
> > Speedster
> > 912ULS
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >
> >
> > <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> >
> > The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord" to reach the
> > instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one
> > or more of
> > witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
> > thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is
> > shot. Jim
> > Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
> >
> >
> > >From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
> > >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> > >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
> > >
> > >Hi everybody,
> > >
> > > I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my
> > Kitfox Classic
> > > III.
> > >
> > > I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT
> > gauge. I -
> > > well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
> > > temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the
> > reading of the
> > > first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
> > >
> > > As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT
> > probes are
> > > well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made
> > of metal touch
> > > each other while between de engine and the instrument.
> > >
> > >Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
> > >
> > > How did you guys solve this problem.
> > >
> > > Greetz,
> > >
> > > Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the
> > weather isn't very
> > > "summer" today.
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with
> > unlimited storage on
> > >all webmail accounts. Find out more.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm
> > Initiative now.
> > It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this share your photos and you could win big!
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: grove landing gear |
Regarding CG and W&B, the grove gear makes the tail quite heavier on groun
d, wich makes it harder to move the plane around if you have to lift the t
ail but when airborne, no difference=2E You can turn the gear 180 degs und
er the plane to get the tail a little lighter, because the gear blade is a
ngled=2E The aft side would then be in the fwd direction=2EI got this info
from a member of this list and confirmed with Grove=2E
Jack
Jacques Voynaud
Conseiller en formation
Cegep de l'Abitibi-T=E9miscamingue
Centre de Ville-Marie (819)629-3211
jacques=2Evoynaud@cegepat=2Eqc=2Eca
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: grove landing gear |
I guess that is a good tip for the Grove gear. I have no reason to lift the tail,
if it's to go over the bump when putting in the hanger, I find that if you
go slow the tail wheel goes right over. I guess that would help if you do landings
and the tail bangs down on the runway, I don't have that issue either so
I guess I'll continue with the way it's set up. It would be real easy to do,
but you might have an issue with brake line runs, will need new ones.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
"if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121086#121086
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: EGT mal function |
Well Michel, now you got me.
And what do I do now ? Do I respond in english, in het nederlands ou en franais
? hahaha !
If you want to see my Kitfox, I put 2 pictures of my UL on the kitfox/photoshare.
I'll put tape around to avoid shortcuts and check the connection. It has been
put on the exhaust and not on the cylinders but it's possible that they are
not well placed. I'll check.
I bought the Kitfox in France (Airfield Brienne-le-Chateau) and continue to have
it registered in FR via DGAC Lille Lesquin. The procedure to fly with the
Kitfox in Belgium is to ask the Belgian Authorities a 'Laiss passer de survol"
so that you can enter Belgian Airspace.
Greetings from where we had wonderful cumulus today (good for glider pilots)
Michel
Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:08 PM, michel dierick wrote:
> I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my Kitfox
> Classic III.
Hello Michel,
Well, I think we have a problem here :-) My name is also Michel and I
am also from Belgium, although I have been living 30 years in Norway.I
also have a Kitfox III which also had a 582 but now changed for a
Jabiru 2200. Incidentally, I think the Kitfox Classic is the model IV
and not III.
> Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
Well, since the EGTs are thermo-couplers and measure a variation in
electrical resistance, it is certainly not good to have them shortcut.
But I fail to understand why this would show one working correctly and
the other showing nothing. Another thing is that the EGT probes have to
be connected to the exhaust manifold (hence the name) and not the
cylinders but I guess that's what you meant.
By the way, do you fly a Kitfox in Belgium? Under the experimental or
the UL rule? The reason I ask is that I know there are no Kitfox
registered in Belgium under the UL rule. You might be the first. I
always wondered why. Norway that has half the population of Belgium has
about six Kitfoxes in flying condition.
Greetings from Norway where the summer isn't much better either,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
---------------------------------
Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on all
webmail accounts. Find out more.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: EGT mal function |
Not quite true Noel. As I understand it the temp difference between the
sensor in the probe in the exhaust and the end of the braided end (cold
junction) determines the EGT reading. When we wired the Lancair there was
insuffecient length to run to the gauge so we ensured that all the ends were
in the same ralative location and pigtails are run from there to the gauge.
This system is working fine. Actually my Kitfox is wired the same way with
copper from the cold junction to the gauge.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 850 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
> So called "extension chords" of copper should never be used. By using a
> copper wire extension you have just introduced resistances not to mention
> four more couples to the circuit. Wires should be of continuous alloys
> from
> the couple.
>
> Noel
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> floran higgins
>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:25 AM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>>
>>
>> <cliffh@outdrs.net>
>>
>> The thermocouples sometime burn out.
>> I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
>>
>> Floran Higgins
>> Helena, Mt
>> Speedster
>> 912ULS
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>>
>>
>> <thesupe@hotmail.com>
>>
>> The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord" to reach the
>> instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one
>> or more of
>> witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
>> thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is
>> shot. Jim
>> Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
>>
>>
>> >From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
>> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>> >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
>> >
>> >Hi everybody,
>> >
>> > I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my
>> Kitfox Classic
>> > III.
>> >
>> > I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT
>> gauge. I -
>> > well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
>> > temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the
>> reading of the
>> > first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
>> >
>> > As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT
>> probes are
>> > well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made
>> of metal touch
>> > each other while between de engine and the instrument.
>> >
>> >Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
>> >
>> > How did you guys solve this problem.
>> >
>> > Greetz,
>> >
>> > Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the
>> weather isn't very
>> > "summer" today.
>> >
>> >
>> >---------------------------------
>> >Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with
>> unlimited storage on
>> >all webmail accounts. Find out more.
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm
>> Initiative now.
>> It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EGT mal function |
On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:29 PM, michel dierick wrote:
> I'll put tape around to avoid shortcuts and check the connection.
You received some very good advices from the people on this list,
Michel. Try them and maybe switch the two thermocouplers as advised
first. Incidentally, it is a good way to check how they work. You'll
always see one cooler than the other. To check if it is the gauge or
the real temperature, you swap them and see how it works then. Good
luck.
For the rest, I have sent you a direct email in French. We will not
bother our English speaking friends and force them to use Babelfish!
:-)
Greetings from Norway where we also have perfect glider weather. (due
to prevailing winds, whatever weather is over Belgium, it will be over
Norway 24 hours later! )
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and Model |
1200 Kitfox ?
Does anyone know what the differences between a Kitfox model IV 1050 and
model 1200? I have found some vague remarks, but nothing definite.
I have a Model 1050 and wonder what it would take to make it a 1200
series ?
Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [ Don Usher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
When I put the full lotus floats on a PA12 I lost 5 MPH. On EDOs it was about
a 15 MPH loss.
On my PA22 I lost about 8 MPH but could only get off the water with myself and
full fuel when I used the cruise prop.
went to an 82X41 and I lost 20 MPH but could then yank it off the water by a 6
count and hang it on the prop.
These floats are not as draggy as you think. I think the worst drag is from guys
using round tubing for the rigging. I think with the wide flat bottoms they
fly themselves in the air.
--------
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121135#121135
Message 11
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| Subject: | familiar rattlesnake |
jmkmyx
yxele
cbndx fipvkd
Message 12
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| Subject: | familiar rattlesnake |
jmkmyx
yxele
cbndx fipvkd
Message 13
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| Subject: | What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and |
Model 1200 Kitfox ?
I know the wings of a 1200 have an I beam in the wing spars that the 1050
does not. Other then that I am not sure what else changed\
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marwynne Kuhn
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and
Model 1200 Kitfox ?
Does anyone know what the differences between a Kitfox model IV 1050 and
model 1200? I have found some vague remarks, but nothing definite.
I have a Model 1050 and wonder what it would take to make it a 1200 series ?
Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Importation from Canada |
Marco,
You might have to have them sent via a Customs broker and pay a duty.
Key word MIGHT. I bought an engine in Canada and did not have to pay
duty. It did go through a custom's broker though and had to pay a small
service fee to them. I would suggest that you look at US Custom's
website, or call Customs and ask specifically. You may want to ask if
there would be a difference between "parts" and "complete unit". I
didn't have to pay duty because it was "some old airplane parts". This
was before the current NAFA agreement, so there might not be anything to
worry about with regard to duty. If you can't get a phone number from
the Customs site, try calling an airport's custom's office for guidance.
Don't be scared of because of the beaurocacy - they are there for YOU!
Larry
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What are the differenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?es |
between a Model IV 1050 and Model 1200?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q? Kitfox- =3F?
I believe there are more and/or larger diameter tubing in the overhead area
of the fuselage in addition to the reinforcements in the wing. Be careful to
consider all the differences before you increase the gross weight. I
remember seeing someone post a detailed list of the difference between models,
try
the archives.
Larry
Model 4/1200/912
RV6/O360
**************************************
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Message 16
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| Subject: | o-8859-1?Q?RE:_Kitfox-List:_What_are_the_differences_between_a_Model_?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?IV_1050_and_Model_1200_Kitfox-_=3F?
There was a time in early 1992, when the tech guys at Denney Aerocraft
would discuss modding the 1050 to a 1200. I discussed it with one of
them at length. The recommendations included changing to spring gear,
the larger diameter lift struts that came with the 1200, addition of a
lower lift strut carry-thru rectangular tube paralleled with the
existing carry-thru. Their recommendations for this added carry-thru
were very specific. He also suggested that one might put triangular
webbing of plywood inside the triangles of tubing behind the seat.
There was no mention of a beefier upper carry-thru tube. There was no
mention of any changes to the wing structure. I took really detailed
notes, but I cannot share them. I
Now, this was one of two discussions I had with one of the tech guys. I
won't mention his name, but you old guys will remember him well. It
wasn't long after Skystar took over that they would no longer discuss
it. The best advice I can give you is to fly it as it was designed. I
have no idea if the suggestions I was given would be safe.
Clem
KF IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KFN102LG@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV
1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ?
I believe there are more and/or larger diameter tubing in the overhead
area of the fuselage in addition to the reinforcements in the wing. Be
careful to consider all the differences before you increase the gross
weight. I remember seeing someone post a detailed list of the
difference between models, try the archives.
Larry
Model 4/1200/912
RV6/O360
Message 17
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| Subject: | What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and |
Model 1200 Kitfox ?
I have seen the 1050 and the1200 side by side. They are very different.
Would not think that it would work to try and made a 1200 out of a 1050.
Clint
From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050
and Model 1200 Kitfox ?
I know the wings of a 1200 have an I beam in the wing spars that the 1050
does not. Other then that I am not sure what else changed\
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marwynne Kuhn
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and
Model 1200 Kitfox ?
Does anyone know what the differences between a Kitfox model IV 1050 and
model 1200? I have found some vague remarks, but nothing definite.
I have a Model 1050 and wonder what it would take to make it a 1200 series ?
Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
<< image001.jpg >>
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Message 18
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| Subject: | EGT mal function |
Let me see if I have this right you are saying that you can connect
copper
to the alloys of a thermocouple with out creating a thermo couple within
the
connection. To maintain a linear calibration the wires should have
alloy
continuity right from the hot junction to the cold junction to the gauge
itself.
What is true is the small EGT gauges we use may not be sensitive enough
to
display the difference and lets face it none of us are flying in -60C so
the
use of a cold junction is or questionable value. However no one, other
than
the man upstairs, will know for sure what the introduction of another
four
cold junctions will do for the linearity and accuracy of the system as a
whole.
Ref: Aircraft Instruments, Second Edition, ISBN 0-582-01898-6, E.J.H.
Pallett
Ch. 11, Pg.291
External Circuit and Resistance
The external circuit of a thermoelectric indicating system consists of a
thermocouple and it's leads, and leads form the junction box at the
engine
bulkhead to the indicator terminals. From this point of view, it might
therefore be considered as a simple and straight forward electrical
instrument system. However, whereas the latter may be connected up by
means
of the appropriate copper leads or cable normally used in aircraft, it
is
not acceptable to do so in a thermoelectric system.
This may be explained by taking the case of a copper/constantan
thermocouple
which is to be connected to a cylinder-head temperature indicator. If a
length of normal twin-core cable is connected to the thermocouple
terminal
box, the one copper lead will be joined to it's thermocouple partner,
but
the other one will be joined to the constantan lead. It is thus
apparent
that the joining of two dissimilar metals introduces another effective
hot
junction which will respond to temperature changes at the junction box,
and
in unbalancing the temperature/e.m.f. will cause the indicator readings
to
be in error. Similarly, all terminal connections which may be necessary
for
routing the leads through the aircraft and connections at the indicator
itself will create additional hot junctions and so aggravate indicator
errors.
In order to eliminate those hot junctions, it is the practice to use
leads
made of the same materials as the thermocouple itself, such leads being
known as extension leads. It is sometimes the practice also to use
thermocouple materials having similar thermoelectric characteristics in
combination; for example, a chromel/alumel thermocouple may be joined to
it's indicator by copper/constantan leads, known as compensating leads.
These leads not only compensate for parasitic effects but also reduce
the
cost as chromel/alumel is expensive.
There is more going into consistency of resistance to the system but I
think
you get the idea.
As anyone who has read my posts will know there will probably be enough
typos in here to qualify me into the non-typist pool... I apologize for
typo
errors that may occur as I transposed this myself.
Long and short is it may work, after a fashion, with speaker or
telephone
copper wire extensions wired in, but it is in no way right or proper.
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Archive this one
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:10 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
>
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Not quite true Noel. As I understand it the temp difference
> between the
> sensor in the probe in the exhaust and the end of the braided
> end (cold
> junction) determines the EGT reading. When we wired the
> Lancair there was
> insuffecient length to run to the gauge so we ensured that
> all the ends were
> in the same ralative location and pigtails are run from there
> to the gauge.
> This system is working fine. Actually my Kitfox is wired the
> same way with
> copper from the cold junction to the gauge.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
> 1998 850 hrs.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:42 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
>
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> >
> > So called "extension chords" of copper should never be
> used. By using a
> > copper wire extension you have just introduced resistances
> not to mention
> > four more couples to the circuit. Wires should be of
> continuous alloys
> > from
> > the couple.
> >
> > Noel
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> >> floran higgins
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:25 AM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >>
> >>
> >> <cliffh@outdrs.net>
> >>
> >> The thermocouples sometime burn out.
> >> I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
> >>
> >> Floran Higgins
> >> Helena, Mt
> >> Speedster
> >> 912ULS
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
> >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >>
> >>
> >> <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> >>
> >> The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord"
> to reach the
> >> instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one
> >> or more of
> >> witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
> >> thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is
> >> shot. Jim
> >> Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
> >> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> >Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >> >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
> >> >
> >> >Hi everybody,
> >> >
> >> > I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my
> >> Kitfox Classic
> >> > III.
> >> >
> >> > I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT
> >> gauge. I -
> >> > well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
> >> > temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the
> >> reading of the
> >> > first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
> >> >
> >> > As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT
> >> probes are
> >> > well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made
> >> of metal touch
> >> > each other while between de engine and the instrument.
> >> >
> >> >Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
> >> >
> >> > How did you guys solve this problem.
> >> >
> >> > Greetz,
> >> >
> >> > Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the
> >> weather isn't very
> >> > "summer" today.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >---------------------------------
> >> >Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with
> >> unlimited storage on
> >> >all webmail accounts. Find out more.
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
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> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | EGT mal function |
You can also test the output of the thermocouples at relatively low
temperatures by putting the tips of the probes in boiling water ( just
below
212 F for most people) or in the flame of a butane lighter which should
be
above 500F... just make sure you test both probes at the same time. and
get
the same readings.
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Michel Verheughe
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:14 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:29 PM, michel dierick wrote:
> > I'll put tape around to avoid shortcuts and check the connection.
>
> You received some very good advices from the people on this list,
> Michel. Try them and maybe switch the two thermocouplers as advised
> first. Incidentally, it is a good way to check how they work. You'll
> always see one cooler than the other. To check if it is the gauge or
> the real temperature, you swap them and see how it works then. Good
> luck.
>
> For the rest, I have sent you a direct email in French. We will not
> bother our English speaking friends and force them to use Babelfish!
> :-)
>
> Greetings from Norway where we also have perfect glider weather. (due
> to prevailing winds, whatever weather is over Belgium, it
> will be over
> Norway 24 hours later! )
>
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | What are the differences between a Model IV 1050 and |
Model 1200 Kitfox ?
My model IV-1050 has I-beams in the wing spars. I know because I built
the wings. My serial # was 1461. I don't know if earlier model IV-1050s
were without them or not, but I think they all had them.
Clem
KF IV-1050
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV
1050 and Model 1200 Kitfox ?
I know the wings of a 1200 have an I beam in the wing spars that the
1050 does not. Other then that I am not sure what else changed\
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marwynne
Kuhn
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: What are the differences between a Model IV 1050
and Model 1200 Kitfox ?
Does anyone know what the differences between a Kitfox model IV 1050 and
model 1200? I have found some vague remarks, but nothing definite.
I have a Model 1050 and wonder what it would take to make it a 1200
series ?
Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | EGT mal function |
I believe that in the directions that come with the gauge, there is a number
(resistance?) you should be able to read on an electrical meter between the
black and white wire on the thermocouple if it is working correctly. I just
looked at an instruction sheet for a Westach gauge. They call the
"extention cord" I refered to a patch cable. This is what they say: Patch
cable may be shortened or lengthened up to 20 feet without affecting
accurity of unit. Useing 20-22 gauge stranded wire is recommended. Thanks,
Jim Chuk Avid MK IV
>From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
>Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:15:00 -0230
>
>You can also test the output of the thermocouples at relatively low
>temperatures by putting the tips of the probes in boiling water ( just
>below
>212 F for most people) or in the flame of a butane lighter which should be
>above 500F... just make sure you test both probes at the same time. and get
>the same readings.
>
>
>Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
>Campbellton, Newfoundland,
>Canada
>Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
>Aerocet 1100s
> <mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > Michel Verheughe
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:14 PM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:29 PM, michel dierick wrote:
> > > I'll put tape around to avoid shortcuts and check the connection.
> >
> > You received some very good advices from the people on this list,
> > Michel. Try them and maybe switch the two thermocouplers as advised
> > first. Incidentally, it is a good way to check how they work. You'll
> > always see one cooler than the other. To check if it is the gauge or
> > the real temperature, you swap them and see how it works then. Good
> > luck.
> >
> > For the rest, I have sent you a direct email in French. We will not
> > bother our English speaking friends and force them to use Babelfish!
> > :-)
> >
> > Greetings from Norway where we also have perfect glider weather. (due
> > to prevailing winds, whatever weather is over Belgium, it
> > will be over
> > Norway 24 hours later! )
> >
> > Michel Verheughe
> > Norway
> > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> >
> >
>
><< Signature1.jpg >>
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
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Message 22
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|
| Subject: | EGT mal function |
The aeroelectric list has beat this subject to death. Small
error, just keep the junctions in the same place. Lots of planes
flying with copper wire extensions. No need to be theoretically
correct for EGT.
Test it at low temps and see a big error. Test it at 1400 degrees and
the error is lost.
Paul
======================
At 09:39 PM 6/28/2007, you wrote:
>Let me see if I have this right you are saying that you can connect
>copper to the alloys of a thermocouple with out creating a thermo
>couple within the connection. To maintain a linear calibration the
>wires should have alloy continuity right from the hot junction to
>the cold junction to the gauge itself.
>
>What is true is the small EGT gauges we use may not be sensitive
>enough to display the difference and lets face it none of us are
>flying in -60C so the use of a cold junction is or questionable
>value. However no one, other than the man upstairs, will know for
>sure what the introduction of another four cold junctions will do
>for the linearity and accuracy of the system as a whole.
>
>Ref: Aircraft Instruments, Second Edition, ISBN 0-582-01898-6,
>E.J.H. Pallett
>Ch. 11, Pg.291
>External Circuit and Resistance
>The external circuit of a thermoelectric indicating system consists
>of a thermocouple and it's leads, and leads form the junction box at
>the engine bulkhead to the indicator terminals. From this point of
>view, it might therefore be considered as a simple and straight
>forward electrical instrument system. However, whereas the latter
>may be connected up by means of the appropriate copper leads or
>cable normally used in aircraft, it is not acceptable to do so in a
>thermoelectric system.
>This may be explained by taking the case of a copper/constantan
>thermocouple which is to be connected to a cylinder-head temperature
>indicator. If a length of normal twin-core cable is connected to
>the thermocouple terminal box, the one copper lead will be joined to
>it's thermocouple partner, but the other one will be joined to the
>constantan lead. It is thus apparent that the joining of two
>dissimilar metals introduces another effective hot junction which
>will respond to temperature changes at the junction box, and in
>unbalancing the temperature/e.m.f. will cause the indicator readings
>to be in error. Similarly, all terminal connections which may be
>necessary for routing the leads through the aircraft and connections
>at the indicator itself will create additional hot junctions and so
>aggravate indicator errors.
>In order to eliminate those hot junctions, it is the practice to use
>leads made of the same materials as the thermocouple itself, such
>leads being known as extension leads. It is sometimes the practice
>also to use thermocouple materials having similar thermoelectric
>characteristics in combination; for example, a chromel/alumel
>thermocouple may be joined to it's indicator by copper/constantan
>leads, known as compensating leads. These leads not only compensate
>for parasitic effects but also reduce the cost as chromel/alumel is expensive.
>
>There is more going into consistency of resistance to the system but
>I think you get the idea.
>As anyone who has read my posts will know there will probably be
>enough typos in here to qualify me into the non-typist pool... I
>apologize for typo errors that may occur as I transposed this myself.
>
>
>Long and short is it may work, after a fashion, with speaker or
>telephone copper wire extensions wired in, but it is in no way right or proper.
>
>
>[]
>
>
>Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
>Campbellton, Newfoundland,
>Canada
>Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
>Aerocet 1100s
><mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca>noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>
>Archive this one
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >
> [<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> > Lowell Fitt
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:10 PM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >
> >
> > <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Not quite true Noel. As I understand it the temp difference
> > between the
> > sensor in the probe in the exhaust and the end of the braided
> > end (cold
> > junction) determines the EGT reading. When we wired the
> > Lancair there was
> > insuffecient length to run to the gauge so we ensured that
> > all the ends were
> > in the same ralative location and pigtails are run from there
> > to the gauge.
> > This system is working fine. Actually my Kitfox is wired the
> > same way with
> > copper from the cold junction to the gauge.
> >
> > Lowell Fitt
> > Cameron Park, CA
> > Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
> > 1998 850 hrs.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:42 AM
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> >
> >
> > <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> > >
> > > So called "extension chords" of copper should never be
> > used. By using a
> > > copper wire extension you have just introduced resistances
> > not to mention
> > > four more couples to the circuit. Wires should be of
> > continuous alloys
> > > from
> > > the couple.
> > >
> > > Noel
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > >>
> [<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> > >> floran higgins
> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:25 AM
> > >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> <cliffh@outdrs.net>
> > >>
> > >> The thermocouples sometime burn out.
> > >> I have had to replace both of mine over the years.
> > >>
> > >> Floran Higgins
> > >> Helena, Mt
> > >> Speedster
> > >> 912ULS
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Jim_and_Lucy Chuk" <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> > >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:55 PM
> > >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> <thesupe@hotmail.com>
> > >>
> > >> The thermocouples probably connect to an "extention cord"
> > to reach the
> > >> instrument. Eight connections there all togeather, any one
> > >> or more of
> > >> witch could be somewhat corroded. Also you might try to switch the
> > >> thermocouples around to determine if one half of the gauge is
> > >> shot. Jim
> > >> Chuk, Avid MK IV, Chisholm MN
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >From: michel dierick <michel.dierick@yahoo.com.au>
> > >> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >> >Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT mal function
> > >> >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:08:28 +1000 (EST)
> > >> >
> > >> >Hi everybody,
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm new to this list and I already have a question for my
> > >> Kitfox Classic
> > >> > III.
> > >> >
> > >> > I just bought my Kitfox but have a problem with the EGT
> > >> gauge. I -
> > >> > well - my kitfox has the Rotax 582 engine. The EGT indicates the
> > >> > temperature of 1 cylinder, not the second. In flight, the
> > >> reading of the
> > >> > first cylinder also stops, having no egt readings at all.
> > >> >
> > >> > As I looked in the engine compartment, I see that the EGT
> > >> probes are
> > >> > well connected to the cylinder but both lines that are made
> > >> of metal touch
> > >> > each other while between de engine and the instrument.
> > >> >
> > >> >Do I have to put some tape around them to avoid contact ?
> > >> >
> > >> > How did you guys solve this problem.
> > >> >
> > >> > Greetz,
> > >> >
> > >> > Mchel Dierick "TheDailyFly" from Belgium where the
> > >> weather isn't very
> > >> > "summer" today.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >---------------------------------
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> > >> unlimited storage on
> > >> >all webmail accounts. Find out more.
> > >>
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> >
> <http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07>http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
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