Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:43 AM - Flaperons ()
2. 07:08 AM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Cudnohufsky's)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Tom Jones)
4. 08:16 AM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (A Smith)
5. 09:16 AM - Re: Flaperons (A Smith)
6. 11:15 AM - Alternative finishes (Dave G.)
7. 11:46 AM - Re: Alternative finishes (Andy Fultz)
8. 12:10 PM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Andy Fultz)
9. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (kurt schrader)
10. 01:47 PM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (kurt schrader)
11. 02:35 PM - Re: Alternative finishes (Fred Shiple)
12. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Lowell Fitt)
13. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Michel Verheughe)
14. 03:56 PM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (David Estapa)
15. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Lowell Fitt)
16. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? ()
17. 07:23 PM - Re: Flaperons (Mdkitfox@aol.com)
18. 07:36 PM - cargo / belly pod (Chris Budd)
19. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Dee Young)
20. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (kurt schrader)
21. 08:54 PM - Re: Flaperons (Guy Buchanan)
22. 08:54 PM - Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (Guy Buchanan)
23. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? (kurt schrader)
24. 11:57 PM - Re: cargo / belly pod (Rexster)
Message 1
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All: I was just reading in the archives about the slits cut all the way around
on the speedster flaperons.Some of you stated or you thought they were no longer
recommended or required to be there.Has anyone got a good reference or have
it in writing that this was done away with.Mine is a 94 model and it is still
listed in the manual as a procedure to do on the speedster. Also,does anyone
have a good way to remove the film from the flaperons? I have tried WD 40,paint
prep and remover, and "goo-be-gone". No luck.---Leon Morris/Classic4 Spstr/94/50%/Flower
Mound,TX
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Andy,
You have been getting a lot of great advise. A few other things to think of,
A good cover and finish job will easily last 20+ years, so do not short cut
using the right amount of materials or putting the extra time in to get the
results you want, you will be looking at it a long time (And so will
everyone else). You will have to decide what is most important to you in the
finish, light weight, smooth finish, quick build, and choose the finish
materials and color scheme that fits. Simple things in the end make a huge
difference, like making sure tapes are straight and the ends are clean cut,
ironing down tape edges continually, rounding open ends of tapes, if this is
your first cover keep the scheme simple and clean, take the time to draw and
color out the sceme on paper (I used the 3 view drawing in the plans and
blew them up then used them to draw and color different schemes) A few
things I like to do is start wet sanding after 2nd coat of silver, use a
bright white as a base for everything and finish buff the final color.
Have fun,
Lloyd
Fox 5 912
UP Mi.
Rebuild Project
(do not archive)
> suggestions. Thanks.
>
> Andy Fultz
> AVID Speedwing (Extended)
> STRATUS EA-81
> Starkville, Mississippi
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
> Are there any, &(^%(&^%., I wish I had done
> that before I covered, items I need to make sure I have done.
Get plenty of inspection hole covers, paint them, and put them where you can find
them in a couple years.
When trimming the fabric along the top and bottom of the fuselage be careful to
trim close enough so that the two inch finish tape will overlap properly. If
you haven't covered one before this can slip by you until you put the tapes on
then wish you had cut it closer.
Bias finish tapes for the tail curves. http://polyfiber.com/products/finishingtapes.htm
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121356#121356
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Just read the covering manual one more time and start. :-) I just stuck
with one color. Thankfully.
Albert Smith
Mudlake, Id.
All red 5TD NSI turbo and Cap
Message 5
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Set them in the sun and then start one end and pull it back over so you are
pulling 180 deg. If it tears stop and get it to one piece again. It is not a
quick and easy thing. Some chemicals will help it bond better. That is all I
have on that.
Albert Smith
MudLake, Id.
5TD, NSI turbo, Cap
Message 6
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| Subject: | Alternative finishes |
I was looking for a finish process and contacted Stewart Aircraft
finishing systems, which I will probably use to refinish my wings. I can
only say good things about my experience with Stewart Systems so far,
when I asked they sent a full catalog, application manual and a video of
the company principal painting a Colt wing with his system. They have
also provided me a detailed quote and estimated materials list for a
Kitfox. They have been very quick and informative through email. If
their paint system is as good as their people have been so far, it's
going to be great.
I also looked at HIPEC, recommended by friends who have used it, and of
course the Stits which incurs heavy charges for shipping hazardous
materials but is at least of known quality.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Alternative finishes |
Dave,
I can only echo your comments on the Stewart products and the people. I
have been on the phone and e-mail with them several times over the last
several months while trying to decide what to use. I have settled on their
system for my project. Now I just have to bite the bullet and place my
order.
Andy Fultz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave G.
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Alternative finishes
I was looking for a finish process and contacted Stewart Aircraft
finishing systems, which I will probably use to refinish my wings. I can
only say good things about my experience with Stewart Systems so far, when I
asked they sent a full catalog, application manual and a video of the
company principal painting a Colt wing with his system. They have also
provided me a detailed quote and estimated materials list for a Kitfox. They
have been very quick and informative through email. If their paint system is
as good as their people have been so far, it's going to be great.
I also looked at HIPEC, recommended by friends who have used it, and of
course the Stits which incurs heavy charges for shipping hazardous materials
but is at least of known quality.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Thanks guys for the many comments and suggestions you have offered. I THINK
I have done about all I can do in preparation for the covering process. I
have one more wire to run and everything I can think of has at least been
prefit and removed or left in place if it won't interfere with the covering.
I do believe I have about run out of excuses to go ahead and get it done.
If anything else comes to mind I'm still listening. Thanks again.
Andy Fultz
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
There was a plane known as the "Gray Ghost" a few
years ago. Don S. probably knows it best. I know it
was a bit hard to see on a cloudy day when it quietly
slipped out of OSH. The Soob sounded like an electric
motor and the plane earned its name by sight and
sound.
If you want to be seen though, paint it to be seen.
Kurt S.
S-5/NSI turbo
--- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> I can't help to wonder if any one has flown their
> plane with just the poly
> spray... It should reflect the heat of the sun and
> be lighter than anything else.
>
> Noel
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
--- Andy Fultz <andynfultz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Good afternoon guys. I'm about to embark on what I
> hope to be the final big
> step in the build process. I THINK I'm ready to
> cover and paint my project.......
>
> Andy Fultz
Hi Andy,
Don't know the particulars of your plane, but make
sure you provide access to everything for maintenance
before you cover.
On my S-5 I missed using blind nuts on a few places
like the baggage floor and rudder peddle mounts. Much
harder to work on once covered. To remove the rudder
peddles, I needed to remove the firewall and
everything on it! Check for stuff like that first.
Not everything is best done by the plans.
Kurt S.
S-5/NSI turbo
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
protection.
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative finishes |
Dave,
I used the same product known as Aircraft Finishing System before it was sold
to Stewart. The product was very difficult to learn to use as it would run
with exceptionall ease. I had help from a painter with a lot of experience with
polyurethanes who felt the same way. The technique was learnable and I was
pleased with the initial appearance.
However, I've been very disappointed with the abrasion resistance of the product.
It scratches with exceptional ease and as with other polyurethanes, the
repair is not particularly good looking. Disappointing after all the work that
went into the application. Other urethanes I've been around have been far
more durable.
Fred
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Can't agree more with Kurt. In the group that flys the back country
togethere there are all sorts of colors. The least visible is the silver
with blue sunburst on the wings model IV. Then, in my opinion comes white
with yellow the most visible. The silver airplane is visible above the
horizon and gone below - sometimes within 100 yards unless included in a
regular sweep. Take your eyes off for a minute and gone again.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 850 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> There was a plane known as the "Gray Ghost" a few
> years ago. Don S. probably knows it best. I know it
> was a bit hard to see on a cloudy day when it quietly
> slipped out of OSH. The Soob sounded like an electric
> motor and the plane earned its name by sight and
> sound.
>
> If you want to be seen though, paint it to be seen.
>
> Kurt S.
> S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> I can't help to wonder if any one has flown their
>> plane with just the poly
>> spray... It should reflect the heat of the sun and
>> be lighter than anything else.
>>
>> Noel
>
>
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
On Jul 1, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> Then, in my opinion comes white with yellow the most visible.
Lowell and Kurt, I think I read somewhere that the US air force has
decided that black was the best visible colour for an aircraft during
daytime. Can you confirm that or have I just been dreaming?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Andy, I decided that on my 5 it would be difficult to install the
outboard seat belt bolts without pushing fabric out more than I wanted.
So I put a little epoxy on the bolt heads and installed before covering.
Did the same for the tailwheel bolt. Glad I did. Much easier to deal with
now.
C. David Estapa
Woodstock, Georgia
S5TD 912S Warp Drive
Phase 1 Testing
> --- Andy Fultz <andynfultz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > Good afternoon guys. I'm about to embark on what I
> > hope to be the final big
> > step in the build process. I THINK I'm ready to
> > cover and paint my project.......
> >
> > Andy Fultz
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Michel, May be true, but I have no knowledge of it. One more thing on
color. When flying in a group some sort of second color highlight is
helpful. Occasionally we will do a roll call sort of thing and if I report
I am off Larry's wing or I can identify Mark's location it helps the others
know the flight's spread and it helps keep the adrenalin under control when
we know generally where we all are. Mark is white with two broad red
stripes fore and aft mid wing. Wray is yellow with a blue stripe on the
fuselage and blue wingtips, Hal is white with green wing tips etc.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 850 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?
>
> On Jul 1, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>> Then, in my opinion comes white with yellow the most visible.
>
> Lowell and Kurt, I think I read somewhere that the US air force has
> decided that black was the best visible colour for an aircraft during
> daytime. Can you confirm that or have I just been dreaming?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Kurt, I believe the Gray Ghost was our late Mike Harter with a Model IV/Subaru
who lost his life out west several years ago when he got trapped in a canyon he
couldn't climb out of.
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Deke
S5/NSI Subaru/CAP
Northeast Michigan
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:21 -0700 (PDT), kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> There was a plane known as the "Gray Ghost" a few
> years ago. Don S. probably knows it best. I know it
> was a bit hard to see on a cloudy day when it quietly
> slipped out of OSH. The Soob sounded like an electric
> motor and the plane earned its name by sight and
> sound.
>
> If you want to be seen though, paint it to be seen.
>
> Kurt S.
> S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> I can't help to wonder if any one has flown their
>> plane with just the poly
>> spray... It should reflect the heat of the sun and
>> be lighter than anything else.
>>
>> Noel
>
>
>
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
Message 17
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In a message dated 6/30/2007 9:44:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
l.morris@tx.rr.com writes:
Also,does anyone have a good way to remove the film from the flaperons? I
have tried WD 40,paint prep and remover, and "goo-be-gone".
Leon,
I just went thru this exercise a few months ago. First you can try to peel
off the covering by pulling it off. Keep the piece your pulling low and try
to keep an even speed while pulling. After doing this 90% of the covering
will remain. It's time to give up. Go to WalMart or Loews and buy about 2
quarts of paint stripper, loads of paper towels, plastic putty knives, and latex
gloves. Liberally brush the stripper on about a 4 foot long section of the
flaperon. Cover with paper towels, wait about 15-20 minutes and it will
begin to bubble the covering. Pull of what you can with the paper towels, then
take the plastic tool and begin scraping the covering off. Hint: Keep the
covering wet with the stripper, don't let it dry or the covering will re-adhere.
Continue scrapping and removing until the section is clean. Then move on.
The stripper will burn you, be sure to use the gloves. You can wipe off the
residual stripper with watered down paper towels. I kept the strpper away
from the hinges to be sure none got inside the flaperon. It's a dirty nasty
job, with no real short cuts, but it does work. Like you, I tried everything
else. I'm glad it's over!
Rick
Series V Speedster - N39RW
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 18
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| Subject: | cargo / belly pod |
Does anyone know where I can get a cargo / belly pod for a Kitfox Classic IV 1200?
Christopher Budd
buddcr@yahoo.com
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
No doubt.
----- Original Message -----
From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.net<mailto:fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?
<fox5flyer@idealwifi.net<mailto:fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>>
Kurt, I believe the Gray Ghost was our late Mike Harter with a Model
IV/Subaru who lost his life out west several years ago when he got
trapped in a canyon he couldn't climb out of.
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Deke
S5/NSI Subaru/CAP
Northeast Michigan
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:21 -0700 (PDT), kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com<mailto:smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com<mailto:smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>>
>
> There was a plane known as the "Gray Ghost" a few
> years ago. Don S. probably knows it best. I know it
> was a bit hard to see on a cloudy day when it quietly
> slipped out of OSH. The Soob sounded like an electric
> motor and the plane earned its name by sight and
> sound.
>
> If you want to be seen though, paint it to be seen.
>
> Kurt S.
> S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca>>
wrote:
>
>> I can't help to wonder if any one has flown their
>> plane with just the poly
>> spray... It should reflect the heat of the sun and
>> be lighter than anything else.
>>
>> Noel
>
>
>
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
--- fox5flyer@idealwifi.net wrote:
> Kurt, I believe the Gray Ghost was our late Mike
> Harter with a Model IV/Subaru who lost his life out
> west several years ago when he got trapped in a
> canyon he couldn't climb out of.
> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
> Deke
> S5/NSI Subaru/CAP
> Northeast Michigan
That's the one Deke. I was trying not to go any
further with the Ghost name than to tie it to the
color and sound. Mike was always a likeable guy. We
have lost too many from this list already and being
seen is just another way to be a little safer.
I painted my 5 white with red and maroon trim.
I also left the flapperons polished aluminum to flash
in the sun and put mirrored tint on the overhead
glass. Nothing beats a sun reflection.
Kurt Schrader
S-5 NSI turbo
Florida and Panama
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
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Message 21
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At 06:40 AM 6/30/2007, you wrote:
>Also,does anyone have a good way to remove the film from the
>flaperons? I have tried WD 40,paint prep and remover, and "goo-be-gone".
Check the archives; this has been a popular subject.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
At 01:00 PM 6/29/2007, you wrote:
>Are there any, &(^%(&^%., I wish I had done
>that before I covered, items I need to make sure I have done.
I built a baggage compartment in a completed IV. I also installed all
the electrical, hydraulics, firewall penetrations, much of the
pitot/static, and much of the firewall forward detailing. I sure wish
it had all been done before covering. This lead me to think that,
were I to build from scratch I would complete the plane, 100%, prior
to covering, then disassemble, cover, and paint. More work, but a
much better product. For example:
Fair in the aft edge of the cowl shell.
Weld tabs for the baggage compartment.
Weld structure for electrical components. (E.g. support structure.)
Modify the instrument panel attachments for easy access to the back
side. (E.g. hinges, etc.)
Degauss the forward structure so the compass works perfectly.
Check the avionics, radios, and transponder with the engine running
and re-run any noisy wires.
Add upholstery tabs.
Use blind nuts wherever access is covered. (Already mentioned but so
important as to be mentioned again.)
Weld exhaust supports. (Try to get rid of as many Adel clamps as
possible, everywhere.)
Perfect the cooling system.
Sexy gap seals on elevator and rudder.
The list goes on and on.
Note, however, that you do have to be careful with this method. Some
structure will change when covered. The inboard most ribs, if not
supported adequately, will bow away from the fuselage when the
fabric's tensioned. Buildups on the inboard rib and butt rib can
cause interference if they were closely spaced to begin with. Sloppy
fabric termination can interfere with the wing tips. Fuselage tubes
can bow in, modifying internal structure such as baggage
compartments. (Supports should always be at tube junctions, anyway.)
I give up. . .
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts? |
Lowell and Kurt, I think I read somewhere that the US
air force has
decided that black was the best visible colour for an
aircraft during
daytime. Can you confirm that or have I just been
dreaming?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
The best color depends upon where you want to be seen,
or not seen. I always thought it was funny when our
airforce painted their planes green. Didn't they
expect to be flying when trouble came? Now many are
gray, but some are black. I think the black is for
radiation absorption against IR weapons, better hiding
at night and better hiding up high. But I think they
stand out when looking down on them in daylight.
Years ago before the KitFox was introduced, I was
considering another plane and wanted to paint it green
and brown. Looked good on trees! Then I thought
about how anyone would find me if I went down in the
trees.
I once saw an army helo with one white blade and one
black blade on top. You couldn't miss it from above!
Your mind knows it can't fly with one blade and you
are immediately drawn to it. I was impressed with how
well it stood out even from miles away. Still
couldn't bring myself to paint one wing white and the
other black....
Kurt Schrader
S-5 NSI/turbo
Florida and Panama
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: cargo / belly pod |
What did the factory say when you contacted them?
I've had one on mine for the entire 596 hours. It works out well.
Rex in Michigan
Model 3 / 912UL / Warp
-- Chris Budd <buddcr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Does anyone know where I can get a cargo / belly pod for a Kitfox Classi
c IV 1200?
Christopher Budd
buddcr@yahoo.com
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<html><P>What did the factory say when you contacted them?<BR> I've had
one on mine for the entire 596 hours. It works out well.<BR> <BR>Rex in
Michigan<BR>Model 3 / 912UL / Warp</P>
<P><BR><BR>-- Chris Budd <buddcr@yahoo.com> wr
ote:<BR></P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, t
imes, serif">Does anyone know where I can get a cargo / belly pod for a
Kitfox Classic IV 1200?<BR><BR>
<DIV> </DIV>Christopher Budd<BR>buddcr@yahoo.com<BR><BR></DIV><BR>
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