---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/10/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - SkyStar (was: Model 4 door gas strut parts) (Michael Gibbs) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: VW Kitfox Flyers/Rons update (Paul Morel) 3. 05:44 AM - Throttle cables (Barry West) 4. 05:52 AM - Re: Throttle cables (kitfoxmike) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: Static port trouble (Jim Burke) 6. 05:56 AM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Jim Burke) 7. 05:57 AM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Jim Burke) 8. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Jim Burke) 9. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Static port trouble (kirk hull) 10. 06:11 AM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (kitfoxmike) 11. 07:17 AM - Re: Throttle cables (Lowell Fitt) 12. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Lowell Fitt) 13. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 14. 09:18 AM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (wingnut) 15. 10:18 AM - Re: Throttle cables (Barry West) 16. 11:01 AM - Re: Throttle cables (Giovanni Day) 17. 11:49 AM - Re: Flaperon fixation rivets (Michel Verheughe) 18. 12:33 PM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (kitfoxmike) 19. 12:40 PM - Re: Flaperon fixation rivets (kitfoxmike) 20. 12:47 PM - New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines (Clint Bazzill) 21. 01:18 PM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (wingnut) 22. 01:21 PM - Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines (wingnut) 23. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 24. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Lowell Fitt) 25. 02:43 PM - Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts (akflyer) 26. 03:00 PM - Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines (wingnut) 27. 03:21 PM - Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts (Giovanni Day) 28. 03:30 PM - Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Giovanni Day) 29. 04:01 PM - $100 hamburger Not build related (Lowell Fitt) 30. 04:19 PM - Re: VW Kitfox Flyers (crazyivan) 31. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts (Glenn Horne) 32. 04:38 PM - Re: $100 hamburger Not build related (fox5flyer) 33. 04:39 PM - Re: Sale items remaining (jerry evans) 34. 04:48 PM - Re: $100 hamburger Not build related (akflyer) 35. 09:21 PM - Re: $100 hamburger Not build related (wingnut) 36. 11:01 PM - Re:NSI normal asperated oil blowoff (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:47 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: SkyStar (was: Kitfox-List: Model 4 door gas strut parts) Giovanni sez: >AS far as the new Skystar owners go... Just for the record, there are no new owners of SkyStar--SkyStar no longer exists. A new company called Kitfox LLC purchased the assets of SkyStar from a bankruptcy court in Idaho. Mike G. Kitfox list co-admin N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:06 AM PST US From: "Paul Morel" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VW Kitfox Flyers/Rons update Ron Thank you so much for the info. The Kitfox 4 I have was orginally purchased with the intention of placing a Rotax engine for power. I have a neighbor that purchased an AeroVee for his Sonex and I'm quite impressed with it so far. After measuring the VW engine, I found that it wouldn't fit into the KF4 stock cowl. Since you went through this type of transition, I was hoping you could share with me what I might have to do to install a VW engine. Here are a couple of questions I have: 1. Engine mount? 2. Cowl modification or new one to fit the VW? or any other modifications. 3. Engine Torque? 4. Appearance? How does the 4 look with the larger engine? I would really like to see some pictures. I really would like to make the VW engine work for my project. Thanks Paul pmorel@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron schick" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:30 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: VW Kitfox Flyers/Rons update > > > Hi paul I have a Kitfox IV Speedster with a 1915cc vw I'll send pics and > info direct if you have questions. Since I have not posted to the group > in a while I'll give a brief update on my vw experiance. > With over 60 hours of trouble free flying it was getting weak. This > turned out to be valve adjustment that I had hoped to go 100 hours between > adjustments. Turns out the advice is right that you should adjust at 25 > hours. I also found that with the Valley Engineering redrive it is VERY > easy to set the timing to far advanced. This leads to overheating as well > as hard starting. All in all I am happy again as I am back to flying on > ~3gph of 87 octane= $9.00/hour. 2.5 hours this weekend. This winter I > will build a 2275cc VW to replace the 1915cc as it is a little lazy with > two people. > Ron Schick North Bend, Oregon N541KF Kitfox Speedster 1915cc VW Valley > Engineering 1.6:1 redrive, 72" Ivo N117AF Avid Flyer 582 N67779 C152 > > >>From: "Paul Morel" >>To: >>Subject: Kitfox-List: VW Kitfox Flyers >>Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:15:10 -0400 >> >>Just got a Kitfox IV Speedster still in the building stages and will be >>ready for a powerplant in the near future. Originally purchased with the >>intent of a Rotax from the previous builder, however I find myself leaning >>towards the VW engine. I've heard there are a couple Kitfox IV's flying >>with the VW and I would like very much to get some ideas and rough price >>costs to power a IV. Anyone out there that has a VW IV that I can >>exchange ideas with? Thanks PMorel > > _________________________________________________________________ > Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one > place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:57 AM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables A repeat request. I have a model IV with the 912 S engine and the throttle without the vernier. Both cables and their housings come out of the back of the throttle cartridge. I don't see anyway to open the back of the cartridge up to replace the cables. I wonder if it would be possible to pull the cables through the cartridge with the throttle rod if the cables were loose from the carburetors. In order to check this out I would have to cut the cables because the ends are all spread out and will not come through the housings. Then they would no longer be useable and I would have to buy a whole new cartridge which I would rather not do. Would someone please let me know if the cables will come out with the throttle rod. You can email me direct at barry@pgtc.com if you want. Barry West ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:51 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Throttle cables From: "kitfoxmike" Best thing to do is call John and get a new cable assy. works great. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123020#123020 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:25 AM PST US From: "Jim Burke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Static port trouble congrats!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giovanni Day" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Static port trouble > > I did a little flying this afternoon. Flew with static to ASI only and it > was within 3-5 mph of the gps. I have a EIS with alt. an vsi. I rigged a > connection of its electronic sensor to the static and it worked properly. > I then connected the mechanical vsi (MVSI)and the EIS. The EIS seemed > correct when compared to the GPS but the MVSI was way off as usual. I > tried adjusting the MVSI and it seemed to improve. When I pulled the power > to land after adjusting it, it went crazy. I think I will locate a known > good MVSI and see what it says. > > -------- > _______________________________________ > Giovanni Day > Model 4 speedster 912 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122971#122971 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:40 AM PST US From: "Jim Burke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) CONGRATS!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:21 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) > > At 06:12 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote: >>After four years of off again, on again flying lessons, three address >>changes, three kinds of airplanes and four instructors, I finally passed >>my check ride last weak! > > Congratulations Luis! Well done! (Can't help you with the no-start, > however.) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:27 AM PST US From: "Jim Burke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) MessageCONGRATS!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:45 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) Sounds a bit like a vapour lock even though that usually only happens to an over heated engine. How was the power once you got it started? Did you check the fuel pumps? Are there impulse lines on the 912??? I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of gas right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold cranking. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:42 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Starting problems (also: I passed my > check ride!) > > > > After four years of off again, on again flying lessons, three > address changes, three kinds of airplanes and four > instructors, I finally passed my check ride last weak! It was > not without some drama however as when it came time for the > flying part of the test my Kitfox refused to start. The > examiner offered that I could complete the examination using > one of the rentals they had available. I elected take him up > on the offer and completed my check ride in a Cessna 152 > despite the fact that it had been almost two years since I > had flown a Cessna and even then it was a 172. No doubt the > examiner afforded me a little more latitude then usual as he > passed me despite some difficulty in holding a stable > altitude during maneuvers and a less than stellar > demonstration of a short field landing. > > I returned to my Kitfox after the check ride hoping that I > would not have to find alternate transportation to my home > airport which was 150 driving miles away. To start my kitfox > I normally resort to a technique that I read about on this > list whereby the engine is first cranked for 10 sec with the > mags off to prime the carbs. I then start as normal with one > full turn past idle of the vernier throttle. I gather that my > motor is more stubborn than most as it usually takes a bit of > cranking even at this point. On this occasion however, the > motor showed no signs of life at all even though I persisted > in cranking until the battery began to show signs of wearing > down. Wondering if had somehow flooded the cylinders with > fuel, I removed one of the lower spark plugs but found it > completely dry. > > At this point, one of the attendants from the local FBO > offered me a jump start from some battery powered utility > cart. I fear that the experience will likely have shortened > the life of my starter by at least half as the procedure > provided enough power to the starter to crank the motor to > 400 RPM for several seconds before it finally started. > > She seemed to be running smoothly at that point so I elected > to fly her home with a close eye on all the gauges and plenty > of altitude. On the following day, she started and ran > normally. Any suggestions or ideas would be greatly > appreciated. I'll add that she's always run a bit rough > between 2000 and 2500 RPM when cold though I have no idea if > this is related. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122964#122964 > > > > > > > > ========== > Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; available href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:49 AM PST US From: "Jim Burke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) CONGRATS!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) > > [quote]Are there impulse lines on the 912??? > I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of > gas right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold > cranking. [/quote > I don't know what an 'impulse line' is but I've considered installing a > primer. Maybe it's time I do that. > > >> Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not >> use them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It >> only turns over 2-3 revs before starting. > > Holy cow! Two revs? There must be something wrong with my setup then. I > use the choke but it doesn't seem to help. There's a shop about 50 miles > north west of me that specializes in Rotax. I guess it's time to take it > in and have it inspected throughly. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122986#122986 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:27 AM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Static port trouble That is correct. A leak in the case will cause it to read a constant decent. to check this unhook the static line and go flying. If it still has the same problem then it is not the static port but is most likely a leak in the case. If I remember correctly the Kitfox will not read correctly with out a static system hooked up but it should be close. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:49 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Static port trouble At 03:54 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote: >You got it. When in flight it consistently give an 600-800 fpm >decent. [Embarassed] LOL However when the airplane is at rest it reads zero. I had to go back to my books to confirm how a VSI works, but if I'm not mistaken you could get this error if you had a leak in the case. This would allow the low pressure cockpit air to lower the case pressure constantly, relative to the static port, causing the appearance of a descent. It's not entirely unlikely; I had a leak in my altimeter case that took me days to find. I finally found it by applying a very slight vacuum using a small hand vacuum source, (used to bleed brakes.) The vacuum would decay over time, indicating a leak. I then applied the vacuum and ran a bead of thin cyanoacrylate, (super glue,) where the bezel met the glass. The cyanoacrylate was ingested into the leak and sealed it. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:41 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) From: "kitfoxmike" First off, congrates on the ticket. Starting the 912ul can be a bear if you don't do it right. First off, you need the choke on both carbs. If you only have it on one, than call John and get the a choke cable set up that will do both. Next when you crank it over without the mags on, this is when it hasn't been started for a while, do it with the choke pulled out. If it's over 60degrees outside start with about 4 seconds of this. Then go ahead and turn on the mags and start, be ready to pull the choke, if it runs crappy than pull the choke out. If it continues to run rough, quickly shut it down and start over, mags off and choke out and run the starter for another 4 seconds. Then turn on the mags and start the engine. Make sure that when you use the choke with mags off that the throttle is pull all the way OFF. When you have the mags on have the throttle part throttle in the 2000rpm possision. hope this helps. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123029#123029 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:22 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables Barry, I didn't respond earlier because I didn't understand the question. The Model IV throttle assembly has a ridgid rod (wire) from the vernier throttle to the center arm on a wide bell crank weldment with arms on each end that pass through the firewall to each of the carbs. From what you describe, the throttle has been changed to the version I understand is now used in the later model Kitfoxes. In my mind, this design change was made to eliminate some of the welding needed at the factory to simplify kit production. I can't imagine that it was done to simplify or improve throttle performance. That said, I suspect that if the throttle you have with a splitter is similar to the choke linkage, you would need a total replacement. Although the choke splitter will come apart for repairs, it sounds like yours will not. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp 1998 870 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry West" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables A repeat request. I have a model IV with the 912 S engine and the throttle without the vernier. Both cables and their housings come out of the back of the throttle cartridge. I don't see anyway to open the back of the cartridge up to replace the cables. I wonder if it would be possible to pull the cables through the cartridge with the throttle rod if the cables were loose from the carburetors. In order to check this out I would have to cut the cables because the ends are all spread out and will not come through the housings. Then they would no longer be useable and I would have to buy a whole new cartridge which I would rather not do. Would someone please let me know if the cables will come out with the throttle rod. You can email me direct at barry@pgtc.com if you want. Barry West ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:26 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) I don't know what I can add here. I use the Clint Bazzill start method which has been described pretty well in previous posts. As designed the choke in the carburetor will not work unless the throttle is closed. I think that is the reason for the four seconds with mags off is to fill the float bowl and charge the cylinders with fuel. I then will typically open the throttle to idle speed then mags on and crank. It will usually start promptly. What I have found, though, that once started, throughout the day it will start on subsequent occasions without choking even if totally cooled down. One good suggestion that was made is to check sparkplug gap. As I recall it is recommended that the gap be at about .020 rather than what is found in the book. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp 1998 870 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) > > At 08:37 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote: >>There must be something wrong with my setup then. I use the choke but it >>doesn't seem to help. > > You mentioned in your earlier post: > > "I then start as normal with one full turn past idle of the vernier > throttle." > > My understanding of the 912 carb is that it requires the throttle to be AT > IDLE for the choke to work. I noted this because it is similar to the 582, > which I run. Try starting with the throttle at idle and using the choke. > (Jump in here any time, Lowell.) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:55 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) luis, try full off on the throttle and full on with the choke. this is much more effective for me. lately I further reduced the idle position of the throttle and found it to be even more easy to start. My start position of the idle is down in the 1400 range. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "wingnut" > > [quote]Are there impulse lines on the 912??? > I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of gas > right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold cranking. > [/quote > I don't know what an 'impulse line' is but I've considered installing a primer. > Maybe it's time I do that. > > > > Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not use > them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It only turns > over 2-3 revs before starting. > > Holy cow! Two revs? There must be something wrong with my setup then. I use the > choke but it doesn't seem to help. There's a shop about 50 miles north west of > me that specializes in Rotax. I guess it's time to take it in and have it > inspected throughly. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122986#122986 > > > > > > > > > >
luis, try full off on the throttle and full on with the choke. this is much more effective for me.  lately I further reduced the idle position of the throttle and found it to be even more easy to start.  My start position of the idle is down in the 1400 range.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>

> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut"
>
> [quote]Are there impulse lines on the 912???
> I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of gas
> right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold cranking.
> [/quote
> I don't know what an 'impulse line' is but I've considered installing a primer.
> Maybe it's time I do that.
>
>
> > Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not use
> them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It only turns
> over 2-3 revs before starting.
>
> Holy cow! Two revs? There must be something wrong with my setup then. I use the >
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:02 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) From: "wingnut" > I then will typically open the throttle to idle speed then mags on and crank. I use the same technique Lowell but I'm still a little confused about the notion of "opening" the throttle to idle. If you're opening the throttle then you're talking about some setting other than all the way out right? I have my throttle stops set so that I get 1600 rpm when the engine is warm and I pull all the way out. The problem is that the idle is a bit slower when the engine is cold so "all the way out", will run too slow and I get chatter from the gearbox. The Rotax literature reccomends running at 2500 RPM when cold so that's where I try to set the throttle for starting. Should I be aiming for some point between 2500 and "all the way out" to start? I'll double check my spark plug gaps. I set them to the factory specs at the last change. Could this account for my rough idle between 2000 and 3000 when cold? -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123058#123058 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:27 AM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables Lowell, sorry I didn't make it clear at first. It is easy to replace the cable in the choke system and it should be in the throttle. I disconnected the throttle cables this morning and pulled the control rod back out of the cartridge as far as I could without removing the little clamps from the cables and I believe the rod will come all the way out if I cut the cables. But I would like to know for sure before I cut them. I don't like the cable they used, it just does not stay together well and much better cable is available. Yes, the old way was better. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables > > Barry, > > I didn't respond earlier because I didn't understand the question. The > Model IV throttle assembly has a ridgid rod (wire) from the vernier > throttle to the center arm on a wide bell crank weldment with arms on each > end that pass through the firewall to each of the carbs. From what you > describe, the throttle has been changed to the version I understand is now > used in the later model Kitfoxes. In my mind, this design change was made > to eliminate some of the welding needed at the factory to simplify kit > production. I can't imagine that it was done to simplify or improve > throttle performance. > > That said, I suspect that if the throttle you have with a splitter is > similar to the choke linkage, you would need a total replacement. > Although the choke splitter will come apart for repairs, it sounds like > yours will not. > > Lowell Fitt > Cameron Park, CA > Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp > 1998 870 hrs. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry West" > To: "Kitfox List" > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:48 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle cables > > > A repeat request. I have a model IV with the 912 S engine and the > throttle without the vernier. Both cables and their housings come out of > the back of the throttle cartridge. I don't see anyway to open the back > of the cartridge up to replace the cables. I wonder if it would be > possible to pull the cables through the cartridge with the throttle rod if > the cables were loose from the carburetors. In order to check this out I > would have to cut the cables because the ends are all spread out and will > not come through the housings. Then they would no longer be useable and I > would have to buy a whole new cartridge which I would rather not do. > > Would someone please let me know if the cables will come out with the > throttle rod. You can email me direct at barry@pgtc.com if you want. > > Barry West > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:12 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Throttle cables From: "Giovanni Day" Barry, I have a spare old vernier setup including that parts that go on the frame I am willing to sell if you need them. -------- _______________________________________ Giovanni Day Model 4 speedster 912 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123079#123079 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:57 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flaperon fixation rivets On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:19 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > In that case, maybe replacing the rivets one at a time might work. Thank you, Lowell. That will be good news for him ... if there is an aluminium backing already there. I'll forward the message. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:56 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) From: "kitfoxmike" One thing that I'm trying to understand is if this was a hot engine for restart. If so, it's possible that you didn't let it cool down properly after runing it hard with stall, steep turns and such. It's possible you had vapor lock. Generally a few minutes at idle before shut down is prefered with these 912's. when restarting a hot rotax you need to go about 1/3 throttle and as soon as it kicks over reduce to idle. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123092#123092 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flaperon fixation rivets From: "kitfoxmike" All suggestions are great ones. I would personally drill one rivet out and look inside for the aluminum plate on the inside, if it's there I would go with the next size rivet, if it's NOT there, I would concider taking off the covering and redueing the brackets. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123093#123093 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:13 PM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: Kitfox-List: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines Hi All, I know that a lot of you have been using my start up procedures. It has worked for me a long time. I have worked out a lot beter sytem that has been in use by me for over 80 hours and it's great. Very similar to old one. 1) Ignition off 2) Throttle closed 3) Pull choke and crank engine for 3 or 4 seconds 4) Ignition on/ Open throttle 1 1/4 turns / Keep choke pulled and crank engine 5) Release choke after engine starts and warm up 3000 RPM's or so This system works very well, and the holding the choke does a little and stops false starts which happen on occasion. _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:52 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) From: "wingnut" > One thing that I'm trying to understand is if this was a hot engine for restart. It was not a hot start. The first attempt to start was after it had been resting for over hour from the 45 min ride to the examiners home airport. The seccond attempt to start was after the check ride and all the paperwork was done.. Maybe four hours all together. It would not have started at all without that jump start from the utility cart. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123102#123102 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:46 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines From: "wingnut" That's more or less what I'm doing. It might not be exactly 1 1/4 turns from idle but that's going to vary depending on where you have your idle stop set. I have mine set for 1600 RPM with a warm engine. I'll try adjusting the gaps on my plugs to see if that helps. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123103#123103 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:39 PM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines luis, the one thing that occurs to me is that you are opening the throttle some for the start. the most success seems to come from having it completely closed with full choke then advancing throttle to warm up rpm them closing the choke. your warm idle is about where mine is currently. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "wingnut" > > That's more or less what I'm doing. It might not be exactly 1 1/4 turns from > idle but that's going to vary depending on where you have your idle stop set. I > have mine set for 1600 RPM with a warm engine. I'll try adjusting the gaps on my > plugs to see if that helps. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123103#123103 > > > > > > > > > >
luis, the one thing that occurs to me is that you are opening the throttle some for the start.  the most success seems to come from having it completely closed with full choke then advancing throttle to warm up rpm them closing the choke.  your warm idle is about where mine is currently.
 
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________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:51 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) Luis, I have the idle stop set at about 1600 RPM. Another suggesteed 1400 - I might try that setting. Rotax recommends something above 2000 for smoother idling with the torsional vibration damper in the gear box. I like the lower stop as if the stop is set at 2000 RPM float is increased on landing. What I meant to say is that I do the choking at the 1600 setting - throttle full retarded and then a half turn or so in and I am close to the Rotax recommended idle setting. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:15 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) > > >> I then will typically open the throttle to idle speed then mags on and >> crank. > > > I use the same technique Lowell but I'm still a little confused about the > notion of "opening" the throttle to idle. If you're opening the throttle > then you're talking about some setting other than all the way out right? I > have my throttle stops set so that I get 1600 rpm when the engine is warm > and I pull all the way out. The problem is that the idle is a bit slower > when the engine is cold so "all the way out", will run too slow and I get > chatter from the gearbox. The Rotax literature reccomends running at 2500 > RPM when cold so that's where I try to set the throttle for starting. > Should I be aiming for some point between 2500 and "all the way out" to > start? > > I'll double check my spark plug gaps. I set them to the factory specs at > the last change. Could this account for my rough idle between 2000 and > 3000 when cold? > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123058#123058 > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:28 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts From: "akflyer" The door struts from a KF fit also.. Most parts are interchangable. My brother called to get a set of gear for a Mod. II and ended up going with the Avid wide gear as KFltd was not real keen on jigging up a set. For the record I have purchased lots of stuff from Steve at Airdale...sorry to step on your KF toes.. -------- Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123124#123124 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New Start Up Procedures for 912 Series Engines From: "wingnut" For some reason, this thread has split in two on the web site version of the list but hopefully, everyone involved is reading both versions so I'll limit my response to this thread to avoid clutter (I know this means nothing to those of you using email access). The consensus seems to be that the throttle needs to be set to the "Idle" setting for startup and then accelerating to 2500 rpm for the period only after the engine is started. "Idle", for the sake of this discussion, seems to be defined as somewhere between 1400 and 1600 RPM. This seems like an important detail because for me, pulling the throttle all the way out with a cold engine results in an idle speed that is so low that the gear box chatters. Something that I understand should be avoided as much as possible. I have indeed been using a higher setting for startup so this may end up being my problem. I will also try dropping the gap on my pluggs as Lowel suggested and hopefully this will improve things further. Thanks for all the help folks and thanks the kind words regarding the positive outcome of my flight test. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123127#123127 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:33 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts From: "Giovanni Day" I really do not need the strut, just the bracket for the door and the two balls that the strut mount to. -------- _______________________________________ Giovanni Day Model 4 speedster 912 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123133#123133 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:53 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) From: "Giovanni Day" I have my throttle set so I can kill the engine with the throttle if I like. I usually turn the mags off and pull the throttle all the way out on shut down. This reduces the shutdown vibration. Also I start the engine with the throttle around 1200-1400rpm setting and quickly release the choke and throttle up to 1700-1800 when it fires off. I do not turn the motor over with the mags off and have no trouble getting it started, even if it has sat a week or more. -------- _______________________________________ Giovanni Day Model 4 speedster 912 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123136#123136 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:13 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Kitfox-List: $100 hamburger Not build related Well, I guess we went on the genuine $100 hamburger flight Friday, except the hamburgers were hard to find - the reason for the genuine (near) $100 spent. I got a call Wednesday suggesting that we all fly up to Trinity Lake in what is called the Trinity Alps in Northwestern California for a late breakfast - early lunch. It sounded like a great idea so about 0630 Friday morning, Wray and I departed Cameron Park and circled overhead until we made visual contact with Ken, Larry, Fred and Marvin flying up from Jackson/Westover about 20 minutes South. Once formed up in a rough in line formation we proceeded North East. We immediately recognized the temperature inversion over 80, so Wray and I dropped down to the usual 500 or below AGl with the other guys to enjoy the relatively cooler air and better view the scenery. The winds were a bit of a tail wind but not gusty so ground speeds looked good and the ride was very comfortable - virtually silk smooth. We skirted BAB, (Beal Airforce Base - U-2s and formerly SR-71s) to the East and regained our heading. We crossed numerous small rivers coming out of the western slopes of the Sierras finally crossing the Sacramento River. With Mt. Shasta in the distant North East we flew past Redding. On any day Redding is hot. It is protected on three sides by mountains and becomes a pocket for hot air. Not infrequently, this northernmost city is the hottest part of the Central Valley. It wasn't too long after passing Redding that we arrived at Trinity Center (O85) on the Western shore of Trinity Lake, officially named Claire Engle Lake. The lake was renamed after a politician who apparently did something good for the majority party, but no one remembers who he was anymore, so the old name is what people use. I guess something like Cape Kennedy returning to the old Cape Canaveral Trinity Center is a sight to behold. Several fortunate (if not wealthy as well) souls have homes along the long taxiway with stone enclosed semicircular tiedown areas in back of their homes, but facing the taxiway - the homes face the street to the West. We were informed that approximately two miles to the West was a restaurant - The Yellow Jacket Restaurant. Two miles is not too far to walk for six hungry pilots and the air was still morning cool, so off we went. Two miles later (it actually seemed longer than two miles) and after lots of encouragement from home owners along the way that verified that there was indeed a restaurant called the Yellow Jacket we found what we were looking for. There were two signs on the door. One informing potential customers that if the flag was flying it was closed - it was and they were. The other sign explained that they were off somewhere taking care of grandchildren. Being a grandpa, that excuse was good enough for me. Across the street from the Yellow Jacket was a small country market and we all got a Coke and sat around the tables on the Yellow Jacket's deck, fortunately in the shade as by then it was just plain hot. We gossiped about the guys that were not with us and checked our cell reception to see if we could call and let them know how much fun we were having and all this while trying to ignore our growling stomachs. There was no cell phone signal - a perfect place for a vacation or weekend getaway. We finally decided what we were going to do next. It was a trip to the coast (about 60 miles) for fuel - Eureka - then down the coast to Shelter Cove. There had to be a restaurant there. Fuel at Eureka was $4.50 a gallon and with the 12 gallons I took we were half way to the magic $100. An alternate route South from Eureka - direct - would have taken us over a broad peninsula, but with the low hanging clouds and the beauty of the shore line, down the coast under the marine layer became the plan. As we proceeded South we had a nice tailwind which improved the ground speed considerably, but as we passed Cape Mendocino and Punta Gorda, the winds shifted and resulted in a nice head wind that allowed a straight in approach to Shelter Cove. It was the shifting that wasn't much fun. The northerlies and southerlies met between the Cape and the Point and resulted in a wild ride, and it didn't much matter what altitude we flew or where we were over the water. Most of the coast there consists of vertical cliffs with differing amounts of sandy beach. Over the beach, such as it was, or further out over the water, it was all the same - very bumpy. The straps kept me pretty secure, and I was only separated from the seat cushion one time. Shelter Cove is a great spot and rather than being a cove, it was another small point that jutted out into the Pacific Ocean, unless, of course, the cove was so small we couldn't see it as we explored. We met a guy that came down from one of the private vacation homes, interested in the airplanes, and he told us there was no restaurant at Shelter Cove. On one end of the runway - the north end - there was a pizza place, but it apparently had no seating as he told us that most people simply picked up their hot food and took it home or to their camp. On the south end of the runway and through the camp ground we were told that there was a deli that made sandwiches and had a grill. By then, close to 1 PM it sounded good enough. I guess breakfast was out of the question at that point, so it would have to be lunch. We walked from the tiedown area along the runway and through a large camping area with numerous tents and RVs. The deli was a small building alongside a large deck with wooden picnic tables neatly arranged across it. When we entered the deli, there were two lines. One for made to order deli sandwiches and one for the grill. There was a Summer help wanted poster strategically placed beside the cash register. That should have been a clue of what was to come. Standing in line I saw a tray stacked full of fried fish and thinking that would be a quick in and out, I ordered the fish and chips and took a ticket numbered 123. Most of the others ordered sandwiches, Ken ordered a hamburger - he was 122. I stood by for the food and the first thing I noticed is that the cook really liked his job - sort of like an artist. Lots of motion while he worked, real style. I waited for the fish and chips. Lots of them were assembled in the little red and white cardboard trays and passed to folks that mysteriously appeared at just the right time, but none had my name on them. Then I became aware of the order number he called out - ninety six! I was a hundred and twenty three. I guess it took the better part of an hour for my food to come. The bottle of Coke I was holding in my hand began to warm up. I exchanged it for a cold one. Finally, one twenty two was called. Ken got his hamburger, it was huge. Then after taking another order, they gave me my fish and chips. Shelter Cove, being a fishing center, the fish was absolutely great and well worth the wait - all of them. The guys were kind enough to allow me to eat liesurely and eventually we were off for home. I was a little startled after following them onto the runway to see that our intersection departure was from the last taxiway - the one closest to the departure end of the runway. With the wind and the performance of these great airplanes, we were all off with room to spare and as is usually the case on the trip home, we all programmed our GPSs direct and climbed up to a cool altitude and headed home. It was a great day. What was promised as a quick trip for breakfast and home by one, turned out to be a food seeking odyssey and home at 5. The $100? The site gauges suggested that on arriving home I had used about ten gallons on the return trip. At about $3 a gallon for car gas it was pennies over $80 for gas and $9 for the fish and chips and two Cokes, so I guess unless I can add a litle depreciation in there somewhere, I am still looking for the $100 lunch. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp 1998 870 hrs. Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:37 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: VW Kitfox Flyers From: "crazyivan" No real-world experience with VW in an airplane but I like the looks of the Great Plains VW engine with Nikasil cylinders, water cooled heads, and if you want 120hp, slap on the PSRU. I have read that the VWs have problems with overheating in warm weather when they try to squeeze 100hp or more out of them, especially in a climb. With the water-cooled heads, this shouldn't be a problem. It would be nice to get some real-world feedback of this set-up in a Kitfox. -------- Dave Speedster 912 UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123145#123145 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:35 PM PST US From: "Glenn Horne" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts Get the balls from NAPA. GLENN HORNE Kitfox Model II ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giovanni Day" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 6:20 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Model 4 door gas strut parts > > I really do not need the strut, just the bracket for the door and the two > balls that the strut mount to. > > -------- > _______________________________________ > Giovanni Day > Model 4 speedster 912 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123133#123133 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:35 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: $100 hamburger Not build related Awesome report Lowell. Thanks! Deke Morisse N148DM S5/Soob/CAP NE Michigan "The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of immortality." -- John Quincy Adams do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 6:00 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: $100 hamburger Not build related > > Well, I guess we went on the genuine $100 hamburger flight Friday, except > the hamburgers were hard to find - the reason for the genuine (near) $100 > spent. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:39 PM PST US From: jerry evans Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sale items remaining Do you have all that stuff below? I don't know if I can use the helmet because of the size(might be tight) but would you take 325. plus shipping for all on list? let me know Jerry Mike Couillard wrote: Still have some Items For Sale Remaining--Please feel free to contact me off list--All Prices Reduced Mike Couillard (719) 481-6282 couillard1@msn.com Comtronics Ultra Pro 2000 Helmet with Visor With built in boom mic and headset 1 Excellent Condition 2 Size: Medium 7 - 7 1/8 Retail Value $279+$7.60 for visor (LEAF) 1 Sell for $150--Price Reduced! Delcom Air 960 VHF/AM Handheld Radio With new nicad battery, AC/DC charger, antenna, and cigarette lighter plug 1 Excellent Condition Suitable for panel mounting 1 Sell for $150 OBO--Price Reduced! Quickie Antenna Kit (good for mounting an antenna inside a wooden or composite fuselage)--$22.15 @ Aircraft SpruceSell for $10 Homebuilder Tool Kit (all tools in new condition) Florian Fabric PinkerRetail $35.95Sell $20 1 Shaviv Deburring Tool Retail $19.95Sell $10 2 Assorted Cleco set and Pliers$20 3 One Touch Tach CerMark $54.95 listSell for $30 12 slightly used B8ES NGK Spark Plugs with less than 20 hours engine timeFree with other items (I'll include in the box) Mike Couillard Business Development Manager Aleut Management Services 5520 Tech Center Dr., Ste. 200 Colorado Springs CO 80919 Ph (719) 262-7196 / Fax (719) 623-0538 mike.couillard@aleutmgt.com www.aleutmgt.com Our Service Today, Tomorrow's Benchmark! Jerry Evans 96% done 582 Magalia Calif. N582'er' kitfox 555 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:29 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: $100 hamburger Not build related From: "akflyer" sounds like a great way to spend the day. Punch in PASX and I can promise you the $100 burger. we can make a run up to skwentna.. at 8.00 + a gallon I bet we can show you a 200.00 burger.. but it will be the best darn burger you ever had! -------- Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123153#123153 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:50 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: $100 hamburger Not build related From: "wingnut" Pictures? -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123186#123186 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:21 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re:Kitfox-List: NSI normal asperated oil blowoff Thanks for the help so far on this so far. Peter G, I think his plane and engine are same as yours, minus your many mods. Unfortunately he is not the builder, so his plane is more of a mystery. I am still worried about this Soob driver's oil problem. Here is what he said after reading all of your replies. "From the full mark on the dipstick to the 90 degree angle of the outlet line is 5". I am sure I'm not over filling because when we ran at 4800 RPM it dropped 2qts out and the oil pressure went down to 20 lbs of pressure. We landed quick and found we had to put in the 2qts to bring the oil back up to operating range." 2 qts is a lot and the low oil pressure tells me there is more to this. But he says it is blowing only out this vent line and because it was lengthened, the belly stays clean. I am wondering if he is not seeing it blow out the exhaust or something at higher power and that is the reason for the excess loss? Also why are the top 2 qts so critical? Shouldn't it hold pressure with the last 2 qts? I would think as long as the engine, oil lines full, and at least a little is in the tank he should hold pressure. There has to be more to this story. Is there a way to reverse some lines coming from the oil tank to miss the bottom 2 qts? My impression is that there are only 3 lines - tank to engine pump, return to tank, and vent. But he says there is another line from the bottom of the tank going down and capped off. I thought this was a convenient drain line to reduce the mess when changing, but is it supposed to be the line to the oil pump instead and he is pulling oil from another line swapped by mistake? How are your oil hoses set up? Still doesn't account for the excess loss of 2 qts. Any ideas? Kurt Schrader S-5/NSI turbo Florida and panama Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! 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