Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:54 AM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (Noel Rodriguez)
2. 01:57 AM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (Noel Rodriguez)
3. 02:19 AM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (Steve Shinabery)
4. 04:16 AM - John King? (fox5flyer)
5. 06:43 AM - Re: gascolator question (Perkins, Mike)
6. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (tc9008@aol.com)
7. 08:13 AM - Re: gascolator question (Noel Loveys)
8. 08:48 AM - Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
9. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) (Lowell Fitt)
10. 09:28 AM - Re: gascolator question (Noel Loveys)
11. 10:02 AM - Re: gascolator question (eskflyer)
12. 10:39 AM - Re: gascolator question (wingnut)
13. 11:48 AM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (Marco Menezes)
14. 11:57 AM - Re: gascolator question (clemwehner)
15. 12:08 PM - Re: barb-tite fittings (clemwehner)
16. 12:45 PM - Re: gascolator question (John W. Hart)
17. 01:07 PM - Re: gascolator question (Marco Menezes)
18. 01:19 PM - Re: gascolator question (Glenn Horne)
19. 02:01 PM - Re: gascolator question (clemwehner)
20. 02:04 PM - Re: pacoddy (OT) (clemwehner)
21. 02:07 PM - Re: gascolator question (Noel Loveys)
22. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 (GONER752@aol.com)
23. 04:40 PM - 912 (Dee Young)
24. 05:05 PM - OT: Re: gascolator question (John W. Hart)
25. 05:12 PM - OT : Re: gascolator question (John W. Hart)
26. 05:47 PM - Bubble door strut (Greaves)
27. 07:50 PM - Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
28. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
29. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
30. 08:02 PM - Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
31. 08:02 PM - Re: gascolator question (paul wilson)
32. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: gascolator question (Guy Buchanan)
33. 08:51 PM - Re: Bubble door strut (Guy Buchanan)
34. 08:51 PM - Re: OT : Re: gascolator question (Guy Buchanan)
35. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: barb-tite fittings (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Please Mr. Ray send me also that diagram for flaps lock
Thanking tou in advance Noel
RAY Gignac <kitfoxpilot@msn.com> wrote:
Yes there is, John King designed a flap lock system that works very well! I
made one for my plane. I can Fax you an actual diagram if you want. Consist
of a flat piece of metal cut with notches, a wood dowl, spring and nail and
two adel clamps!
Ray
>From: Steve Shinabery
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:18:39 -0400
>
>
>I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick locks
>up.what is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will push flap
>back up.they will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one place.is
>there a way to lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery, St.Marys Ohio.
> N554KF Kitfox2
>
>wingnut wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you supposed
>>>to hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"?
>>
>>That works for people using the web version of this list but many people
>>access this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to keep
>>emails grouped based on the title but some email programs use different
>>semantics in the reply heading that defeats the forum logic.
>>
>>--------
>>Luis Rodriguez
>>Model IV 1200
>>Rotax 912UL
>>Flying Weekly
>>Laurens, SC (34A)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Please send me that Flap lock diagram also
Thanks Noel (noelro10@yahoo.com)
RAY Gignac <kitfoxpilot@msn.com> wrote:
Yes there is, John King designed a flap lock system that works very well! I
made one for my plane. I can Fax you an actual diagram if you want. Consist
of a flat piece of metal cut with notches, a wood dowl, spring and nail and
two adel clamps!
Ray
>From: Steve Shinabery
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:18:39 -0400
>
>
>I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick locks
>up.what is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will push flap
>back up.they will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one place.is
>there a way to lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery, St.Marys Ohio.
> N554KF Kitfox2
>
>wingnut wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you supposed
>>>to hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"?
>>
>>That works for people using the web version of this list but many people
>>access this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to keep
>>emails grouped based on the title but some email programs use different
>>semantics in the reply heading that defeats the forum logic.
>>
>>--------
>>Luis Rodriguez
>>Model IV 1200
>>Rotax 912UL
>>Flying Weekly
>>Laurens, SC (34A)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!
http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Hi ray thanks for your info.please send me the needed info for my flap
handle problem..Steve Shinabery N554KF St.Marys Ohio,,,KF2 582
Noel Rodriguez wrote:
> Please send me that Flap lock diagram also
>
> Thanks Noel
> (noelro10@yahoo.com)
>
> */RAY Gignac <kitfoxpilot@msn.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> Yes there is, John King designed a flap lock system that works
> very well! I
> made one for my plane. I can Fax you an actual diagram if you
> want. Consist
> of a flat piece of metal cut with notches, a wood dowl, spring and
> nail and
> two adel clamps!
>
> Ray
>
>
> >From: Steve Shinabery
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
> >Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:18:39 -0400
> >
> >
> >I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick
> locks
> >up.what is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will
> push flap
> >back up.they will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one
> place.is
> >there a way to lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery,
> St.Marys Ohio.
> > N554KF Kitfox2
> >
> >wingnut wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you
> supposed
> >>>to hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"?
> >>
> >>That works for people using the web version of this list but
> many people
> >>access this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to
> keep
> >>emails grouped based on the title but some email programs use
> different
> >>semantics in the reply heading that defeats the forum logic.
> >>
> >>--------
> >>Luis Rodriguez
> >>Model IV 1200
> >>Rotax 912UL
> >>Flying Weekly
> >>Laurens, SC (34A)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow>
> (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 4
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Anybody heard from John King lately? Haven't heard a peep from him on the
list in a year or more?
Deke Morisse
N148DM
S5/Soob/CAP
NE Michigan
"The influence of each human being on others in this life is a kind of
immortality."
-- John Quincy Adams
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "RAY Gignac" <kitfoxpilot@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
>
> Yes there is, John King designed a flap lock system that works very well!
I
> made one for my plane. I can Fax you an actual diagram if you want.
Consist
> of a flat piece of metal cut with notches, a wood dowl, spring and nail
and
> two adel clamps!
>
> Ray
>
>
> >From: Steve Shinabery <shinco@bright.net>
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
> >Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:18:39 -0400
> >
> >
> >I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick locks
> >up.what is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will push flap
> >back up.they will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one
place.is
> >there a way to lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery, St.Marys
Ohio.
> > N554KF Kitfox2
> >
> >wingnut wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you
supposed
> >>>to hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"?
> >>
> >>That works for people using the web version of this list but many people
> >>access this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to keep
> >>emails grouped based on the title but some email programs use different
> >>semantics in the reply heading that defeats the forum logic.
> >>
> >>--------
> >>Luis Rodriguez
> >>Model IV 1200
> >>Rotax 912UL
> >>Flying Weekly
> >>Laurens, SC (34A)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!
> http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
The answer to your question is yes and no. Fundamentally, a gascolator
is nothing more than a "bulging low spot" in the fuel system where
anything heavier than fuel can collect. Water can, and often does,
collect there because water is heavier than fuel.
Gascolators were really designed as an inexpensive fuel filter for
stationary engines before filters were created. The screen inside will
pass water as well as fuel. There's no guarantee that some water won't
make it through because a gascolator is really a "static collector."
If the plane is sitting still and water accumulates in the tanks of a
high-wing aircraft from condensation, it can "fall down" there if the
conditions are right (path is open, etc). This is why it's a good idea
to leave the tank valves open. But water will accumulate in the first
low spot it comes to.
Kitfoxes have a header tank which is usually rectangular. So on the
ground, the header tank has "nooks and crannies" where water can
accumulate. Only the excess water that overflows from the nook or cranny
can make it out of the header tank in this attitude. Also, Kitfoxes have
fuel lines that typically run up hill when the aircraft sits on the
ground, so water can't get to the gascolator unless there's a whole lot
of it.
Now start the engine. Any accumulated water in the fuel lines makes it
to the gascolator. However, the water which is stuck the nooks and
crannies stays in place until the aircraft is in an attitude where this
water can run downhill to the gascolator. Imagine a stepped waterfall
where each step has its own low spots where water can collect - when the
water flow stops, these low spots still contain water. A good fuel
system is one where fuel is always running downhill, even from the nooks
and crannies. Most Kitfoxes aren't made like this. Only when you tip the
whole waterfall forward can the water run out of these places.
While the engine is running, in the gascolator itself, if the turbulence
is low enough, water will settle to the bottom. However, if flow rate
and liquid turbulence in the bowl is great enough, water can make it
through to the engine. Turbulence in the bowl can be caused by the flow
itself, the vibration of the engine, and aircraft maneuvers.
Almost all airplanes have a gascolator, yet many engines have stopped in
flight because of water in the fuel.
One more thing. If there's any alcohol in the fuel, water will combine
with it. Get some 100LL fuel. Mix fuel and water about 50:1. The water
will go right to the bottom. Shake it up. The water still goes to the
bottom. A gascolator can catch this water.
But now use fuel containing ethanol and do the same thing. Strange
things happen. Sometimes the water "disappears." Sometimes the water
eventually makes it to the bottom and sometimes it doesn't. It's really
an interesting experiment to do in a test tube. With ethanol fuel, the
gascolator is being called upon to do something that it wasn't designed
to do.
Someone makes a water separator funnel you can use when fueling your
airplane. I've heard it really works well. But then afterwards, water
can condense in your tanks. The only real way to get the fuel and water
to separate is to have your aircraft designed where fuel can always run
downhill to the gascolator when the airplane is sitting on the ground
and then not use ethanol fuels. Otherwise it's just sheer luck.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Would you mind posting that diagram or my fax number is 919-643-4070
Travis
Kitfox IV
-----Original Message-----
From: RAY Gignac <kitfoxpilot@msn.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 9:32 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2
?
Yes there is, John King designed a flap lock system that works very well! I made
one for my plane. I can Fax you an actual diagram if you want. Consist of a
flat piece of metal cut with notches, a wood dowl, spring and nail and two adel
clamps!?
?
Ray?
?
>From: Steve Shinabery <shinco@bright.net>?
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com?
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2?
>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:18:39 -0400?
>?
>?
>I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick locks >up.what
is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will push flap >back up.they
will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one place.is >there a way to
lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery, St.Marys Ohio. > N554KF Kitfox2?
>?
>wingnut wrote:?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>>If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you supposed >>>to
hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"??
>>?
>>That works for people using the web version of this list but many people >>access
this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to keep >>emails grouped
based on the title but some email programs use different >>semantics in
the reply heading that defeats the forum logic.?
>>?
>>--------?
>>Luis Rodriguez?
>>Model IV 1200?
>>Rotax 912UL?
>>Flying Weekly?
>>Laurens, SC (34A)?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>Read this topic online here:?
>>?
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
?
_________________________________________________________________?
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1?
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
It was recommended to me that after refuelling a plane take twenty
minutes
to have a coffee. In that time any water in the gas will dissipate out
and
can then be drained off when the tanks are dripped before flying on.
I know of at least one lake LA-4 that crashed due to water in the fuel
which
was just purchased at a large airport. Had that pilot taken his time
and
dripped his tanks before taking off he would probably still be alive
today.
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perkins,
Mike
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The answer to your question is yes and no. Fundamentally, a gascolator
is
nothing more than a "bulging low spot" in the fuel system where anything
heavier than fuel can collect. Water can, and often does, collect there
because water is heavier than fuel.
Gascolators were really designed as an inexpensive fuel filter for
stationary engines before filters were created. The screen inside will
pass
water as well as fuel. There's no guarantee that some water won't make
it
through because a gascolator is really a "static collector."
If the plane is sitting still and water accumulates in the tanks of a
high-wing aircraft from condensation, it can "fall down" there if the
conditions are right (path is open, etc). This is why it's a good idea
to
leave the tank valves open. But water will accumulate in the first low
spot
it comes to.
Kitfoxes have a header tank which is usually rectangular. So on the
ground,
the header tank has "nooks and crannies" where water can accumulate.
Only
the excess water that overflows from the nook or cranny can make it out
of
the header tank in this attitude. Also, Kitfoxes have fuel lines that
typically run up hill when the aircraft sits on the ground, so water
can't
get to the gascolator unless there's a whole lot of it.
Now start the engine. Any accumulated water in the fuel lines makes it
to
the gascolator. However, the water which is stuck the nooks and crannies
stays in place until the aircraft is in an attitude where this water can
run
downhill to the gascolator. Imagine a stepped waterfall where each step
has
its own low spots where water can collect - when the water flow stops,
these
low spots still contain water. A good fuel system is one where fuel is
always running downhill, even from the nooks and crannies. Most Kitfoxes
aren't made like this. Only when you tip the whole waterfall forward can
the
water run out of these places.
While the engine is running, in the gascolator itself, if the turbulence
is
low enough, water will settle to the bottom. However, if flow rate and
liquid turbulence in the bowl is great enough, water can make it through
to
the engine. Turbulence in the bowl can be caused by the flow itself, the
vibration of the engine, and aircraft maneuvers.
Almost all airplanes have a gascolator, yet many engines have stopped in
flight because of water in the fuel.
One more thing. If there's any alcohol in the fuel, water will combine
with
it. Get some 100LL fuel. Mix fuel and water about 50:1. The water will
go
right to the bottom. Shake it up. The water still goes to the bottom. A
gascolator can catch this water.
But now use fuel containing ethanol and do the same thing. Strange
things
happen. Sometimes the water "disappears." Sometimes the water eventually
makes it to the bottom and sometimes it doesn't. It's really an
interesting
experiment to do in a test tube. With ethanol fuel, the gascolator is
being
called upon to do something that it wasn't designed to do.
Someone makes a water separator funnel you can use when fueling your
airplane. I've heard it really works well. But then afterwards, water
can
condense in your tanks. The only real way to get the fuel and water to
separate is to have your aircraft designed where fuel can always run
downhill to the gascolator when the airplane is sitting on the ground
and
then not use ethanol fuels. Otherwise it's just sheer luck.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
Mike,
Great job of explaining the old school
gascolator. You are totally correct in all respects.
I would only add:
Skystar recognized the disfunction of a tail
dragger high wing with a gascolator which is why they did 3 things.
1) Eliminated the gascolater
2) Replaced the gascolator with an automotive final fuel filter
3) Started selling a proper header (or collector) tank
The logic went just as you said when parked the
water would drain to the header. So they provided
a sump with quick drain in the header. I have not
measured the sump volume, but rest assured it is
many times the size of any gascolator. (The
outlet to the engine is some distance above the
bottom of the header in order to achieve this sump function).
This design makes the quick drains in the tiny
sump in the wing tanks superfluous, thus they can be eliminated.
I understand that MurleWilliams gets the credit
for urging the factory to get it correct.
Conclusion. Copy the latest Skystar fuel system
design and have a much safer plane.
Regards, Paul
========================
At 07:43 AM 7/13/2007, Perkins, Mike wrote:
>The answer to your question is yes and no.
>Fundamentally, a gascolator is nothing more than
>a =93bulging low spot=94 in the fuel system where
>anything heavier than fuel can collect. Water
>can, and often does, collect there because water is heavier than fuel.
>
>Gascolators were really designed as an
>inexpensive fuel filter for stationary engines
>before filters were created. The screen inside
>will pass water as well as fuel. There=92s no
>guarantee that some water won=92t make it through
>because a gascolator is really a =93static collector.=94
>
>If the plane is sitting still and water
>accumulates in the tanks of a high-wing aircraft
>from condensation, it can =93fall down=94 there if
>the conditions are right (path is open, etc).
>This is why it=92s a good idea to leave the tank
>valves open. But water will accumulate in the first low spot it comes to.
>
>Kitfoxes have a header tank which is usually
>rectangular. So on the ground, the header tank
>has =93nooks and crannies=94 where water can
>accumulate. Only the excess water that overflows
>from the nook or cranny can make it out of the
>header tank in this attitude. Also, Kitfoxes
>have fuel lines that typically run up hill when
>the aircraft sits on the ground, so water can=92t
>get to the gascolator unless there=92s a whole lot of it.
>
>Now start the engine. Any accumulated water in
>the fuel lines makes it to the gascolator.
>However, the water which is stuck the nooks and
>crannies stays in place until the aircraft is in
>an attitude where this water can run downhill to
>the gascolator. Imagine a stepped waterfall
>where each step has its own low spots where
>water can collect ' when the water flow stops,
>these low spots still contain water. A good fuel
>system is one where fuel is always running
>downhill, even from the nooks and crannies. Most
>Kitfoxes aren=92t made like this. Only when you
>tip the whole waterfall forward can the water run out of these places.
>
>While the engine is running, in the gascolator
>itself, if the turbulence is low enough, water
>will settle to the bottom. However, if flow rate
>and liquid turbulence in the bowl is great
>enough, water can make it through to the engine.
>Turbulence in the bowl can be caused by the flow
>itself, the vibration of the engine, and aircraft maneuvers.
>
>Almost all airplanes have a gascolator, yet many
>engines have stopped in flight because of water in the fuel.
>
>One more thing. If there=92s any alcohol in the
>fuel, water will combine with it. Get some 100LL
>fuel. Mix fuel and water about 50:1. The water
>will go right to the bottom. Shake it up. The
>water still goes to the bottom. A gascolator can catch this water.
>
>But now use fuel containing ethanol and do the
>same thing. Strange things happen. Sometimes the
>water =93disappears.=94 Sometimes the water
>eventually makes it to the bottom and sometimes
>it doesn=92t. It=92s really an interesting
>experiment to do in a test tube. With ethanol
>fuel, the gascolator is being called upon to do
>something that it wasn=92t designed to do.
>
>Someone makes a water separator funnel you can
>use when fueling your airplane. I=92ve heard it
>really works well. But then afterwards, water
>can condense in your tanks. The only real way to
>get the fuel and water to separate is to have
>your aircraft designed where fuel can always run
>downhill to the gascolator when the airplane is
>sitting on the ground and then not use ethanol
>fuels. Otherwise it=92s just sheer luck.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!) |
Luis,
I drilled a hole through the plastic choke knob and threaded a key ring
through it then put some black vinyl tubing - drip system - on the ring to
hide the chrome. It makes it easy to pull.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp
1998 870 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)
>
> In case anyone was wondering. It turns out that the problem was simply
> that I wasn't pulling the choke hard enough. The nob has always been a
> little sticky and I'd been reluctant to pull on it too hard for fear of
> breaking something. A local A&P at the airport inspected the carbs while I
> held the choke lever at the position that I was accustomed to and he
> informed me that the choke was not fully actuated. I just needed to put a
> little more muscle into it. Now she starts right off. No need to crank
> with the mags off. This is how a fifteen thousand dollar motor is supposed
> to run :-).
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123529#123529
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point of
the
fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
separate
some grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a fuel
filter
before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the
gascolator.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Mike,
Great job of explaining the old school gascolator. You are totally
correct
in all respects.
I would only add:
Skystar recognized the disfunction of a tail dragger high wing with a
gascolator which is why they did 3 things.
1) Eliminated the gascolater
2) Replaced the gascolator with an automotive final fuel filter
3) Started selling a proper header (or collector) tank
The logic went just as you said when parked the water would drain to the
header. So they provided a sump with quick drain in the header. I have
not
measured the sump volume, but rest assured it is many times the size of
any
gascolator. (The outlet to the engine is some distance above the bottom
of
the header in order to achieve this sump function).
This design makes the quick drains in the tiny sump in the wing tanks
superfluous, thus they can be eliminated.
I understand that MurleWilliams gets the credit for urging the factory
to
get it correct.
Conclusion. Copy the latest Skystar fuel system design and have a much
safer
plane.
Regards, Paul
At 07:43 AM 7/13/2007, Perkins, Mike wrote:
The answer to your question is yes and no. Fundamentally, a gascolator
is
nothing more than a "bulging low spot" in the fuel system where anything
heavier than fuel can collect. Water can, and often does, collect there
because water is heavier than fuel.
Gascolators were really designed as an inexpensive fuel filter for
stationary engines before filters were created. The screen inside will
pass
water as well as fuel. There's no guarantee that some water won't make
it
through because a gascolator is really a "static collector."
If the plane is sitting still and water accumulates in the tanks of a
high-wing aircraft from condensation, it can "fall down" there if the
conditions are right (path is open, etc). This is why it's a good idea
to
leave the tank valves open. But water will accumulate in the first low
spot
it comes to.
Kitfoxes have a header tank which is usually rectangular. So on the
ground,
the header tank has "nooks and crannies" where water can accumulate.
Only
the excess water that overflows from the nook or cranny can make it out
of
the header tank in this attitude. Also, Kitfoxes have fuel lines that
typically run up hill when the aircraft sits on the ground, so water
can't
get to the gascolator unless there's a whole lot of it.
Now start the engine. Any accumulated water in the fuel lines makes it
to
the gascolator. However, the water which is stuck the nooks and crannies
stays in place until the aircraft is in an attitude where this water can
run
downhill to the gascolator. Imagine a stepped waterfall where each step
has
its own low spots where water can collect - when the water flow stops,
these
low spots still contain water. A good fuel system is one where fuel is
always running downhill, even from the nooks and crannies. Most Kitfoxes
aren't made like this. Only when you tip the whole waterfall forward can
the
water run out of these places.
While the engine is running, in the gascolator itself, if the turbulence
is
low enough, water will settle to the bottom. However, if flow rate and
liquid turbulence in the bowl is great enough, water can make it through
to
the engine. Turbulence in the bowl can be caused by the flow itself, the
vibration of the engine, and aircraft maneuvers.
Almost all airplanes have a gascolator, yet many engines have stopped in
flight because of water in the fuel.
One more thing. If there's any alcohol in the fuel, water will combine
with
it. Get some 100LL fuel. Mix fuel and water about 50:1. The water will
go
right to the bottom. Shake it up. The water still goes to the bottom. A
gascolator can catch this water.
But now use fuel containing ethanol and do the same thing. Strange
things
happen. Sometimes the water "disappears." Sometimes the water eventually
makes it to the bottom and sometimes it doesn't. It's really an
interesting
experiment to do in a test tube. With ethanol fuel, the gascolator is
being
called upon to do something that it wasn't designed to do.
Someone makes a water separator funnel you can use when fueling your
airplane. I've heard it really works well. But then afterwards, water
can
condense in your tanks. The only real way to get the fuel and water to
separate is to have your aircraft designed where fuel can always run
downhill to the gascolator when the airplane is sitting on the ground
and
then not use ethanol fuels. Otherwise it's just sheer luck.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
To tell people to remove the gascolator is bullshit and eliminate it totally is
insane . HMMMM lets see i go from taildragger to floats and then what geee i
need a gascolator . You always need one i dont care who thinks they dont . use
it or loose it to drain your fuel off and get the water out . This is a no bariner
one .
My model 2 has the 9 1/2 gallon front tank and a 14 gallon wing tank . no room
for a header tank in front so a gascolator is a must and even if it did have a
header tank it would still have the gascolator .
Im just going to ask . Would you be willing to go on record and sign a logbook
of someones to say remove gascolator you dont need it .
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
WHEELS NorthAire Floats
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123610#123610
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
Back when I ran Mogas, I'd often get water out of my gascolator. Maybe the gascolator
wasn't catching all the water but if it catches any at all then it's a
good thing right? Having the gascolator doesn't hurt anything does it? I switched
to 100LL six months ago and have not found water in my fuel since.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123619#123619
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Steve:
Tighten the bolt (with the leather washers) that flap handle pivots on. I had
the same experience and a couple cranks with the ratchet corrected in-flight
flap slippage. As for a stop, I went low-tech with an Adel clamp strategically
located on the fuselage tubing just above and behind the flap handle. Pull the
flap handle up until you notice that roll control begins to become affected
(about 20 degrees). Back the handle down slightly and tightly mount your Adel
clamp just behind the handle (clamp's tang is on same side as handle). Voila!
Your flaps now stop at 20 degrees. Takes 5 minutes and costs 20 cents.
Steve Shinabery <shinco@bright.net> wrote:
I need to add a stop for the flap handle.at full flaps.the stick locks
up.what is the best way?all so,when using flaps,the wind will push flap
back up.they will not stay where I put it.it will not stay in one
place.is there a way to lock flaps in place. Thanks Steve Shinabery,
St.Marys Ohio. N554KF Kitfox2
wingnut wrote:
>
>
>
>> If you are replying on this list to a previous post, aren't you supposed to
hit the "Post Reply" button, not "New Topic"?
>>
>
> That works for people using the web version of this list but many people access
this list via email. I gather that the web sight tries to keep emails grouped
based on the title but some email programs use different semantics in the reply
heading that defeats the forum logic.
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123368#123368
>
>
>
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and
lay it on us.
Message 14
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
in-line fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the fuel
pump. Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
there are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help.
(now that John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than
Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point of
the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
separate some grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a
fuel filter before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is
the gascolator.
Noel
Message 15
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| Subject: | RE: barb-tite fittings |
Guy,
What about using the "Barb-Tite" fitting with typical fuel injection
hose? Since everyone recommended the fuel injection hose over the old
H6000, I changed all the hoses to fuel injection hose. But now I wonder
if I can use it with the barb-tite fitting. Would it hold?
Thanks for the help,
Clem Wehner
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy
Buchanan
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: barb-tite fittings
At 10:03 PM 7/11/2007, you wrote:
Will these work with fuel injection hose or will they only work with
specially designed hoses? Is it really safe to have a fuel line
without a hose clamp?
I use them extensively, but only as designed. There is an entire
Aeroquip series that is clamp-less. Aeroquip is reputable and I'm
ASSUMING their design is proven, though I didn't prove it myself. I used
this system previously on a Porsche remote oil cooler and in 12 years
never had a fitting failure, though I once had a mid-hose failure. Of
course I replaced the line every few years.
On all other "barbs" I use clamps. (E.g. fuel pump, carburetors.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 16
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
MessageOne of the main reasons there shouldn't be a fuel filter on a fuel
pump input is that it's easier to push liquid than it is to pull it. The
filter, by virtue of the small passages thru it to allow a liquid to flow,
creates a resistance to liquid flow, thereby requiring more effective
pressure to pass thru the filter. Pumps produce pressure on the output, but
not the input.
Hell, Clem, you live in a BIG city! I'm one that lives in the back country,
at Wilburton, OK, county seat of Latimer County, population 3000. ;)
My dad lives in Lawton. I went thru high school there, then left and stayed
gone from Oklahoma for 44 years, but moved back when I decided to retire
totally.
I just bought a Kitfox IV with a Subaru engine on it. Matter of fact, just
got home with it a couple of hours ago.
John Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:57 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an in-line
fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the fuel pump. Is this
a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where there
are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help. (now that
John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point of
the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
separate some grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a fuel
filter before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the
gascolator.
Noel
Message 17
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
Good question, Clem. I have the see-thru "Purolator" type filter installed in each
fuel line between wing tank and header, well ahead of the fuel pump. No flow
problem experienced after 80 hours. First speck of crud in a filter and it
gets removed, cleaned out. Elements changed at annual. What's wrong with that?
clemwehner <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Why is a filter before the fuel
pump a no-no? My kit came with an in-line fuel filter which I placed between
the gascolator and the fuel pump. Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be
before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where there are
zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help. (now that John
Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point of the fuel
system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does separate some
grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a fuel filter before
the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the gascolator.
Noel
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
MessageDo you know any Indians in Lawton names Pacoddy. I was in the
army with an Indian
from Lawton Ok.
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hart
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
One of the main reasons there shouldn't be a fuel filter on a fuel
pump input is that it's easier to push liquid than it is to pull it.
The filter, by virtue of the small passages thru it to allow a liquid to
flow, creates a resistance to liquid flow, thereby requiring more
effective pressure to pass thru the filter. Pumps produce pressure on
the output, but not the input.
Hell, Clem, you live in a BIG city! I'm one that lives in the back
country, at Wilburton, OK, county seat of Latimer County, population
3000. ;)
My dad lives in Lawton. I went thru high school there, then left and
stayed gone from Oklahoma for 44 years, but moved back when I decided to
retire totally.
I just bought a Kitfox IV with a Subaru engine on it. Matter of fact,
just got home with it a couple of hours ago.
John Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:57 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
in-line fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the fuel
pump. Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
there are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help.
(now that John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than
Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point
of the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It
does separate some grit as well as water before the fuel pump.
Installing a fuel filter before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only
other option is the gascolator.
Noel
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
1. Based on several responses, I'm thinking that there should be no
filter between the header tank and the fuel pump except for the
gascolator. Is that right?
2. If true, then should an inline filter be placed after the fuel pump
enroute to the carbs, or just not use an inline filter at all?
John, my wife asks what year you graduated from HS. She was from Lawton
high, class of '64 (Frances Sue Jacks). Heck, ya'll might be cousins!
tnx,
Clem Wehner
Lawton, OK
KFIV-912, under construction since 1991. (going for the record!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W.
Hart
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
One of the main reasons there shouldn't be a fuel filter on a fuel pump
input is that it's easier to push liquid than it is to pull it. The
filter, by virtue of the small passages thru it to allow a liquid to
flow, creates a resistance to liquid flow, thereby requiring more
effective pressure to pass thru the filter. Pumps produce pressure on
the output, but not the input.
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: pacoddy (OT) |
Nope never heard of any with that name. Don't even see that name in the
phone book. Sorry,
cheers,
Clem
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Horne
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Do you know any Indians in Lawton names Pacoddy. I was in the army with
an Indian
from Lawton Ok.
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
Message 21
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
Fuel pumps do a pretty good job of pushing fuel but when it comes to
sucking, well they suck! Fuel filters should be placed between the pump
and
the carb/fuel injection.
Slight blockage of a fuel filter before the pump can cause your pump to
airlock and the fan to stop. Some plane have a small facet electrical
pump
very close to the tanks in that case placing the filter after the
electric
fuel pump is good.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
in-line
fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the fuel pump. Is
this
a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
there
are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help. (now
that
John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than
Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point of
the
fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
separate
some grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a fuel
filter
before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the
gascolator.
Noel
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Question - flap handle Kitfox 2 |
Ray, could you possibly post that diagram to the photo share, or perhaps
sportflight? I also have a Mod.II with the same problem. Thanks.
Greg G
Macedon, N.Y.
23NK
n375KL
Mod 2
582
************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 23
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Need some help from the 912 drivers. Got a friend in hanger next door
who has 700 rpm drop on mag A. Mag B is 300 as it should be. He has
checked everything with ohm meter and can find nothing wrong. Has
contacted the factory boys and they haven't been able to help. Any ideas
from you guys?
Thanks for your ideas
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not Archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
MessageNo, I don't know that name. There are some Pokorny people ther, or
at least used to be. I'm related to a bunch of Comanches over there.
John Hart
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Horne
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Do you know any Indians in Lawton names Pacoddy. I was in the army with an
Indian
from Lawton Ok.
GLENN HORNE
Kitfox Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hart
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
One of the main reasons there shouldn't be a fuel filter on a fuel pump
input is that it's easier to push liquid than it is to pull it. The filter,
by virtue of the small passages thru it to allow a liquid to flow, creates a
resistance to liquid flow, thereby requiring more effective pressure to pass
thru the filter. Pumps produce pressure on the output, but not the input.
Hell, Clem, you live in a BIG city! I'm one that lives in the back
country, at Wilburton, OK, county seat of Latimer County, population 3000.
;)
My dad lives in Lawton. I went thru high school there, then left and
stayed gone from Oklahoma for 44 years, but moved back when I decided to
retire totally.
I just bought a Kitfox IV with a Subaru engine on it. Matter of fact,
just got home with it a couple of hours ago.
John Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:57 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
in-line fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the fuel pump.
Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
there are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of help. (now
that John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to live than
Oklahoma!)
Clem Wehner
KF-IV, 912
Lawton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point
of the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
separate some grit as well as water before the fuel pump. Installing a fuel
filter before the fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the
gascolator.
Noel
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
MessageNo, I don't think I'm related to her. I graduated in 1958. I spent
26 years in the military, 9 years in Oregon, 8 years in Alaska, then moved
back to OK in 1999.
John Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 4:01 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
1. Based on several responses, I'm thinking that there should be no filter
between the header tank and the fuel pump except for the gascolator. Is that
right?
2. If true, then should an inline filter be placed after the fuel pump
enroute to the carbs, or just not use an inline filter at all?
John, my wife asks what year you graduated from HS. She was from Lawton
high, class of '64 (Frances Sue Jacks). Heck, ya'll might be cousins!
tnx,
Clem Wehner
Lawton, OK
KFIV-912, under construction since 1991. (going for the record!)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Bubble door strut |
Anyone know an alternative strut than the stock for the 7's bubble
doors? Stock struts way too long since the bubble can't go as high up
under the wing. Also, is the 50lbs stock strut pressure normal? Seems
to put a heck of a lot of strain on the front door hinge.
Thanks,
Wade Greaves
Message 27
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
Hey, It all depends on how your fuel system is configured. If you
have wing tanks and the header behind the seat vs a header up high
behind the panel, nose gear , or floats. The fuel flow is different
for each because of the flow from the tanks. More head pressure
results with the behind the seat header. Any thing that reduces the
pressure to the header tanks or reduces the pressure (and subsequent
flow) to the pump is a no-no. Normal design for many vehicles &
planes require a filter ahead of the pump. Like when one uses a
Facet. If the pump is sensitive to particles then you need a pre
filter. If not the put the filter downstream.
The gascolator is a filter. with a tiny sump to collect water. Do
you need both a gascolator and another filter?
If your fuel system does not have a low point drain like the recent
Kitfoxes with the behind the seat header, then you need to add one
and a gascolator can accomplish this function. That is why the M 2,3
with panel tank have a gascolator instead of a normal filter like the M4 etc.
Paul
================
At 12:56 PM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
>in-line fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the
>fuel pump. Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
>
>Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
>there are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of
>help. (now that John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to
>live than Oklahoma!)
>
>Clem Wehner
>KF-IV, 912
>Lawton, OK
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
>
>The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point
>of the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install
>it. It does separate some grit as well as water before the fuel
>pump. Installing a fuel filter before the fuel pump is a
>no-no. The only other option is the gascolator.
>
>Noel
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
That is not a very nice message. I guess you don't care to figure it
out what the discussion is about.
I wonder if you read Mikes & my message.?
Paul
======================
At 11:02 AM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>
>To tell people to remove the gascolator is bullshit and eliminate it
>totally is insane . HMMMM lets see i go from taildragger to floats
>and then what geee i need a gascolator . You always need one i dont
>care who thinks they dont . use it or loose it to drain your fuel
>off and get the water out. This is a no bariner one .
>My model 2 has the 9 1/2 gallon front tank and a 14 gallon wing tank
>. no room for a header tank in front so a gascolator is a must and
>even if it did have a header tank it would still have the gascolator .
>Im just going to ask . Would you be willing to go on record and sign
>a logbook of someones to say remove gascolator you dont need it .
>
>--------
>FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
>John Perry
>Kitfox 2 N718PD
>582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
>WHEELS NorthAire Floats
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123610#123610
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
What I am suggesting is that there is a better way, especially for the M4 TD.
Paul
================
At 11:37 AM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>
>Back when I ran Mogas, I'd often get water out of my gascolator.
>Maybe the gascolator wasn't catching all the water but if it catches
>any at all then it's a good thing right? Having the gascolator
>doesn't hurt anything does it? I switched to 100LL six months ago
>and have not found water in my fuel since.
>
>--------
>Luis Rodriguez
>Model IV 1200
>Rotax 912UL
>Flying Weekly
>Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123619#123619
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
Is this an M4 with the header behind the seat? The flow restriction
of a filter between the wing tank and header is not a critical as a
filter after the header and before the pump. Good to have see thru
filters so they cam be monitored. Filters on an M 2, 3 between the
tank and header with the panel tank wound not be so good.
Paul
=================
At 02:06 PM 7/13/2007, Marco wrote:
>Good question, Clem. I have the see-thru "Purolator" type filter
>installed in each fuel line between wing tank and header, well ahead
>of the fuel pump. No flow problem experienced after 80 hours. First
>speck of crud in a filter and it gets removed, cleaned out. Elements
>changed at annual. What's wrong with that?
>
>clemwehner <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Why is a filter before the fuel pump a no-no? My kit came with an
>in-line fuel filter which I placed between the gascolator and the
>fuel pump. Is this a bad idea? Should the filter be before the gascolator?
>
>Thanks for the help, I live in the middle of no-where OKlahoma where
>there are zero other builders, so you guys are my only source of
>help. (now that John Perry decided that Alaska was a better place to
>live than Oklahoma!)
>
>Clem Wehner
>KF-IV, 912
>Lawton, OK
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:28 AM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
>
>The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely at the lowest point
>of the fuel system. If the plane didn't have one I'd install
>it. It does separate some grit as well as water before the fuel
>pump. Installing a fuel filter before the fuel pump is a
>no-no. The only other option is the gascolator.
>
>Noel
>
>
>Got a little couch potato?
>
>
>Check out fun
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48248/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz>summer
>activities for kids.
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | gascolator question |
I would never advocate removing the low point
drain. Like I said in my other post the latest
Skystar design is the only design that removed the gascolator.
Several owners have updated their fuel system to
the low point behind the seat in the header.
Think about that design and realize that it opens up other options.
Paul
=======================
At 10:27 AM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>The gascolator on my model III-A is definitely
>at the lowest point of the fuel system. If the
>plane didn't have one I'd install it. It does
>separate some grit as well as water before the
>fuel pump. Installing a fuel filter before the
>fuel pump is a no-no. The only other option is the gascolator.
>
>Noel
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:42 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: gascolator question
>
>Mike,
> Great job of explaining the old school
> gascolator. You are totally correct in all respects.
> I would only add:
>Skystar recognized the disfunction of a tail
>dragger high wing with a gascolator which is why they did 3 things.
>1) Eliminated the gascolater
>2) Replaced the gascolator with an automotive final fuel filter
>3) Started selling a proper header (or collector) tank
>The logic went just as you said when parked the
>water would drain to the header. So they
>provided a sump with quick drain in the header.
>I have not measured the sump volume, but rest
>assured it is many times the size of any
>gascolator. (The outlet to the engine is some
>distance above the bottom of the header in order
>to achieve this sump function).
>This design makes the quick drains in the tiny
>sump in the wing tanks superfluous, thus they can be eliminated.
>I understand that MurleWilliams gets the credit
>for urging the factory to get it correct.
>Conclusion. Copy the latest Skystar fuel system
>design and have a much safer plane.
>Regards, Paul
>========================
>At 07:43 AM 7/13/2007, Perkins, Mike wrote:
>
>>The answer to your question is yes and no.
>>Fundamentally, a gascolator is nothing more
>>than a =93bulging low spot=94 in the fuel system
>>where anything heavier than fuel can collect.
>>Water can, and often does, collect there because water is heavier than
fuel.
>>
>>Gascolators were really designed as an
>>inexpensive fuel filter for stationary engines
>>before filters were created. The screen inside
>>will pass water as well as fuel. There=92s no
>>guarantee that some water won=92t make it through
>>because a gascolator is really a =93static collector.=94
>>If the plane is sitting still and water
>>accumulates in the tanks of a high-wing
>>aircraft from condensation, it can =93fall down=94
>>there if the conditions are right (path is
>>open, etc). This is why it=92s a good idea to
>>leave the tank valves open. But water will
>>accumulate in the first low spot it comes to.
>>
>>Kitfoxes have a header tank which is usually
>>rectangular. So on the ground, the header tank
>>has =93nooks and crannies=94 where water can
>>accumulate. Only the excess water that
>>overflows from the nook or cranny can make it
>>out of the header tank in this attitude. Also,
>>Kitfoxes have fuel lines that typically run up
>>hill when the aircraft sits on the ground, so
>>water can=92t get to the gascolator unless there=92s a whole lot of it.
>>Now start the engine. Any accumulated water in
>>the fuel lines makes it to the gascolator.
>>However, the water which is stuck the nooks and
>>crannies stays in place until the aircraft is
>>in an attitude where this water can run
>>downhill to the gascolator. Imagine a stepped
>>waterfall where each step has its own low spots
>>where water can collect ' when the water flow
>>stops, these low spots still contain water. A
>>good fuel system is one where fuel is always
>>running downhill, even from the nooks and
>>crannies. Most Kitfoxes aren=92t made like this.
>>Only when you tip the whole waterfall forward
>>can the water run out of these places.
>>
>>While the engine is running, in the gascolator
>>itself, if the turbulence is low enough, water
>>will settle to the bottom. However, if flow
>>rate and liquid turbulence in the bowl is great
>>enough, water can make it through to the
>>engine. Turbulence in the bowl can be caused by
>>the flow itself, the vibration of the engine, and aircraft maneuvers.
>>
>>Almost all airplanes have a gascolator, yet
>>many engines have stopped in flight because of water in the fuel.
>>
>>One more thing. If there=92s any alcohol in the
>>fuel, water will combine with it. Get some
>>100LL fuel. Mix fuel and water about 50:1. The
>>water will go right to the bottom. Shake it up.
>>The water still goes to the bottom. A gascolator can catch this water.
>>But now use fuel containing ethanol and do the
>>same thing. Strange things happen. Sometimes
>>the water =93disappears.=94 Sometimes the water
>>eventually makes it to the bottom and sometimes
>>it doesn=92t. It=92s really an interesting
>>experiment to do in a test tube. With ethanol
>>fuel, the gascolator is being called upon to do
>>something that it wasn=92t designed to do.
>>
>>Someone makes a water separator funnel you can
>>use when fueling your airplane. I=92ve heard it
>>really works well. But then afterwards, water
>>can condense in your tanks. The only real way
>>to get the fuel and water to separate is to
>>have your aircraft designed where fuel can
>>always run downhill to the gascolator when the
>>airplane is sitting on the ground and then not
>>use ethanol fuels. Otherwise it=92s just sheer luck.
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
At 10:02 AM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>To tell people to remove the gascolator is bullshit and eliminate it
>totally is insane . HMMMM lets see i go from taildragger to floats
>and then what geee i need a gascolator . You always need one i dont
>care who thinks they dont . use it or loose it to drain your fuel
>off and get the water out . This is a no bariner one .
C'mon John, settle down. I don't think anyone advocated not having
some kind of a sump. It's just that some of us have sumps in our
headers and some in our gascolators. The question was whether the
gascolator had any advantage over a sump in the header tank combined
with a filter. If you think so, then please explain, in technical terms, why.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Bubble door strut |
At 05:46 PM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>Also, is the 50lbs stock strut pressure normal?
I use 30# by 12" extended for my IV bubble doors. I wouldn't think
the 7 doors would weigh much more. (Of course you can attach much
closer to the hinge with a 50# strut.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: gascolator question |
At 05:12 PM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>No, I don't think I'm related to her. I graduated in 1958. I spent
>26 years in the military, 9 years in Oregon, 8 years in Alaska, then
>moved back to OK in 1999.
>John Hart
LOL! I think I can safely use this as an example of a discussion that
should have been taken off line. No harm done, but a great example.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: RE: barb-tite fittings |
At 12:06 PM 7/13/2007, you wrote:
>What about using the "Barb-Tite" fitting with typical fuel injection
>hose? Since everyone recommended the fuel injection hose over the
>old H6000, I changed all the hoses to fuel injection hose. But now I
>wonder if I can use it with the barb-tite fitting. Would it hold?
Don't know. I used the Aeroquip "Socketless" system for the fuel
lines from the wing tanks to the fuselage, about 1' on each side. The
rest of the fuselage fuel lines are aluminum. The "Socketless" system
requires no clamps and is rated to 250 psi working. I can't imagine
any unpressurized line coming off a "Barb-tite" fitting, but I don't
have any even anecdotal data. Why not use clamps? I use them on all
my fuel hoses in the engine compartment.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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