---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/31/07: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:21 AM - Re: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation (Noel Loveys) 2. 07:54 AM - Re: need engineer type to run a calculation (akflyer) 3. 08:32 AM - Re: Another Kitfox IV-1200 ready for first flight (Michel Verheughe) 4. 10:04 AM - Sliding window for camera (wingnut) 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Sliding window for camera (kitfoxmike) 6. 10:42 AM - Re: Sliding window for camera (wingnut) 7. 11:03 AM - Sliding window for camera (Rexster) 8. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Sliding window for camera (michael paton) 9. 12:39 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (Michel Verheughe) 10. 01:08 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (Rexinator) 11. 01:09 PM - Question on Rivet for windshield installation (John Ciolino) 12. 01:21 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (Rexinator) 13. 01:48 PM - Re: Question on Rivet for windshield installation (john oakley) 14. 02:01 PM - Anybody around JC or Butler,Tn? (Andy Fultz) 15. 02:16 PM - Question on Rivets for windshield installation (Rexster) 16. 02:51 PM - Re: Question on Rivets for windshield installation (john oakley) 17. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation (Noel Loveys) 18. 03:25 PM - Re: Question on Rivets for windshield installation (Marco Menezes) 19. 04:17 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (Noel Loveys) 20. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: Sliding window for camera (Noel Loveys) 21. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Sliding window for camera (Noel Loveys) 22. 04:35 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (wingnut) 23. 05:10 PM - Re: need engineer type to run a calculation (akflyer) 24. 05:15 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (kitfoxmike) 25. 05:18 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (kitfoxmike) 26. 05:24 PM - Re: Question on Rivets for windshield installation (Dan Billingsley) 27. 05:25 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (kitfoxmike) 28. 05:26 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (kitfoxmike) 29. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation (Noel Loveys) 30. 06:51 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (Tom Jones) 31. 08:26 PM - Re: Sliding window for camera (wingnut) 32. 08:59 PM - Re: Re: Sliding window for camera (Rexinator) 33. 10:17 PM - Re: Re: Sliding window for camera (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:19 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation Mark a line on the outside of your float where you want the waterline to be at full load. Place your floats on a set of scales absconded form the local highways dept. and zero the scales. Next, fill them to the line. The weight of the water will be your displacement. You can also fill the floats to your line with a 1Litre milk bottle ( metric is a lot easier here there is no U.S. litre :-)) Count the number of litres to fill the float to the line and multiply by 1 this will give you your displacement in Kilograms to your useful water line. You can multiply the number of Kilograms by 2.205 to get the number of pounds. If you really want to fool with U.S. gallons ( 4 qt. to the gal ) the weight of a U.S. gallon is about 8.36 lb. The weight of a "real" ;-) Imperial Gallon of water is around 10 lb. These weights are approximations as the density of water changes with temperature. they should be close enough for "Government Work". Consider filling the float on a beach where sand will help support the float and there is less chance to damage the float. And pump the float dry before moving it. Be sure your float isn't leaking the water out or your capacity will be high. You could ask the float designer what the operational displacement is. That saves time, sand and a day at the beach! Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:02 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation > > > > Leonard, > > How accurate do you want the figure? The reason I ask is > that some floats have complex curves particularly in the hull > area and the calculations would be fairly involved to find > exact displacement. If you are looking for a ballpark > number, say plus or minus 5% to 10%, you could simply divide > the float into sections and approximate the sections using a > series of varing sizes of cubes (the more sections, the > greater the accuracy)...find the volume of the cubes and then > you would have your displacement. Keep in mind that the > float will displace more water the further under water it is > (i.e. a float that is partially submerged displaces less > water than a float that is completely submerged). If your > wondering about my credentials, I am one of those engineer > types...a civil engineer. > > This may be a dumb question as I am not up to speed on the > various floats offered but wouldn't the manufacturer have > that information for you (they would have to figure > displacement to determine the capacity of the float). If you > are using a scaled down version, simply scale down the > displacement the manufacturer has by the amount your floats > are scaled. > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (under Construction) > 914 Turbo > Ogden, Utah > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126536#126536 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:56 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation From: "akflyer" the floats are a scaled down version of the northaires that were made of fiberglass. They are foam filled with no hatches or pump outs.. I am not fond of the foam filling or no pump outs, but they are on my brothers plane not mine! I have a set of the northaire drawings, and will copy them in autocad, then scale them to the dimensions he has. After that it will be easy to find the volume... now I just need time to model them in cad. I installed the floats on his plane last week and did the test flying. solo it was great, but with 2 200+ guys, a full nose tank and 7 gallns in the wing, it was a bit of a slug to get off the water. she sat a little low for my liking, but most beaver drivers up here will tell you that any float left sticking out of the water is wasted revenue (only partialy kidding here). -------- Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126583#126583 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imga0086_664.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:06 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Kitfox IV-1200 ready for first flight On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Geir Olav ien wrote: > And thanks to Michel, that told me that it was a skyfox cowling in > Norway that the Jabiru dealer almost gave away , I think it looks nice > with that cowling around the Jabiru Congratulation, Geir, your Kitfox looks REALLY good! I am glad I could help. Last week, I went to Belgium to fetch a Slepcev Storch with a pilot from Frde. After a nice flight to Sweden (Hgans) I had to leave the plane and pilot there because of the bad weather and I needed to be at work Monday. Tomorrow, I'll fly my Kitfox with another pilot, fetch the Storch and fly north-westward toward Frde-Bringeland. But the next low will already be over the west coast and we will probably won't make it further than Dagali. Where is your plane now? Med vennlig hilsen, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:09 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera From: "wingnut" Anyone know of a simple way to add a small sliding window to the upper door of a kitfox? I saw a picture once where someone converted the whole top half of the door into hinged window but I was thinking of something simpler. I just need to open a whole large enough to stick the lense of a camera through. My sister wants to explore some aerial photography from my kitfox but she's too chicken to fly with the doors off (come to think of it, so am I) and I don't think she can get a good quality picture shooting through the lexan. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126638#126638 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:16 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "kitfoxmike" Slow down and open the door, ya right, I haven't done that yet, but I'm getting my nerve up, may do it yet. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126645#126645 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:50 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "wingnut" I had the passenger door pop open on me on my first solo with the Kitfox so I know it's not a big deal. My instructor was unfamiliar witht he door latch and I failed to double check that it was secure. That was the passenger door though and I had to change my shorts after as it was. I can't imagine what it would be like for my sister to hold a camera out an open door while hanging out the bottom of a turn while I try to keep the target in view. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126652#126652 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:46 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera I fly with doors open sometimes. Keep this in mind. Remember how the doo r latch didn't do its job one time? Consider what happens if the seatbel t latch doesn't hold on either (for whatever reason) while turning sharp ly. Just keep that in mind so you don't land with one less person on boa rd. It's a lonely final approach! Rex in Michigan -- "wingnut" wrote: I had the passenger door pop open on me on my first solo with the Kitfox so I know it's not a big deal. My instructor was unfamiliar witht he do or latch and I failed to double check that it was secure. That was the p assenger door though and I had to change my shorts after as it was. I ca n't imagine what it would be like for my sister to hold a camera out an open door while hanging out the bottom of a turn while I try to keep the target in view. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126652#126652 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

I fly with doors open sometimes. Keep this in mind. Remember ho w the door latch didn't do its job one time? Consider what happens if th e seatbelt latch doesn't hold on either (for whatever reason) while turn ing sharply. Just keep that in mind so you don't land with one less pers on on board. It's a lonely final approach!

Rex in Michigan



-- "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com> wr ote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: " wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>

I had the& nbsp;passenger door pop open on me on  ;my first solo with the Kitfox so I&n bsp;know it's not a big deal. My inst ructor was unfamiliar witht he door latch& nbsp;and I failed to double check that&nbs p;it was secure. That was the passenger&nb sp;door though and I had to change my  shorts after as it was. I can't  ;imagine what it would be like for my  sister to hold a camera out an  open door while hanging out the bottom&nbs p;of a turn while I try to keep  the target in view.

--------
Luis Rodrigue z
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying WeeklyLaurens, SC (34A)




Read this top ic online here:

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________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:30 AM PST US From: michael paton Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera Its a lot easier to take the door off , we do a lot of photography from the plane and the doors havnt been back on in 2 years , I wouldnt put my doors back on in a hurry , much prefer the rush of freedom. good luck Michael 9J-FOX series 5, 912 100 hp kitfoxmike wrote: Slow down and open the door, ya right, I haven't done that yet, but I'm getting my nerve up, may do it yet. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126645#126645 --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:18 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Rexster wrote: > I fly with doors open sometimes. Keep this in mind. Remember how the > door latch didn't do its job one time? Consider what happens if the > seatbelt latch doesn't hold on either (for whatever reason) while > turning sharply. Just keep that in mind so you don't land with one > less person on board. It's a lonely final approach! ... and don't do sideslips with the doors open. I understand a member of this list lost his turtledeck doing that once. Do I remember correctly? Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:59 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera A snap vent probably the simplest vent and I expect you could just leave it out before flight to use for photos. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/vents.html Rexinator wingnut wrote: > >Anyone know of a simple way to add a small sliding window to the upper door of a kitfox? I saw a picture once where someone converted the whole top half of the door into hinged window but I was thinking of something simpler. I just need to open a whole large enough to stick the lense of a camera through. My sister wants to explore some aerial photography from my kitfox but she's too chicken to fly with the doors off (come to think of it, so am I) and I don't think she can get a good quality picture shooting through the lexan. > >-------- >Luis Rodriguez >Model IV 1200 >Rotax 912UL >Flying Weekly >Laurens, SC (34A) > > -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:18 PM PST US From: "John Ciolino" Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manual (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets except to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap strip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:18 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera By "leave it out" I meant "Not installed" of course! Rex Rexinator wrote: > A snap vent probably the simplest vent and I expect you could just > leave it out before flight to use for photos. -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:34 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation John, My fox is also 92 vintage. I used the aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrill thinking that the steel would pull too hard and cause cracking. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ciolino Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manual (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets except to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap strip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:00 PM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: Kitfox-List: Anybody around JC or Butler,Tn? Hey guys, I'll be traveling this weekend and will be in Johnson City and Butler, Tn Sat., Sun., and Monday. Will probably be staying at Watauga Lake. I'd like to get together sometime with any builders/flyers within resonable driving didstance. Let me know if you are close. Andy Fultz Starkville, Ms ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:32 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation I too followed the manual on installation. When I had to drill out each rivet to replace the windshield the first time, I replaced the rivets wi th screws instead. I'm not sure, but they may have been called rivnuts. A small insert went into the material first and then the countersunk scr ew with a big countersunk washer under it distributes the load. I've cha nged the windshield one more time since then and the job was a piece of cake. Same story for the rivets on the doors. I used stainless steel scr ews for all. Rex in Michigan Model 3, 912, 80 HP Warpdrive 1999 completion -- "john oakley" wrote: John, My fox is also 92 vintage. I used the aluminum rivets with aluminum mand rill thinking that the steel would pull too hard and cause cracking. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ciolin o Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation et> I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manua l (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets ex cept to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap str ip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

I too followed the manual on installation. When I had to d rill out each rivet to replace the windshield the first time, I replaced the rivets with screws instead. I'm not sure, but they may have been ca lled rivnuts. A small insert went into the material first and then the c ountersunk screw with a big countersunk washer under it distributes the load. I've changed the windshield one more time since then and the job w as a piece of cake. Same story for the rivets on the doors. I used stainless steel screws for all.

Rex in Michigan
Model 3, 912, 80 HP
Warpdrive
1999 completio n



-- "john oakley" <john@leptron.com>  ;wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by:&nbs p;"john oakley" <john@leptron.com>

John,
My&nb sp;fox is also 92 vintage. I used the  aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrill
thin king that the steel would pull too ha rd and cause cracking.

John Oakley

--- --Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matr onics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On&nbs p;Behalf Of John Ciolino
Sent: Tuesday, July  31, 2007 2:09 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics. com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet  for windshield installation

--> Kitfox-List&nbs p;message posted by: "John Ciolino" <johncio lino@comcast.net>

I am replacing my windsh ield with 3/32 (.90) lexan.  The buil der's manual 
(from 1992) gives a Skyst ar part number for the pop rivets use d the hold the

windshield/skylight to th e butt ribs but does not describe the  rivets except

to say they are alum inum.

Aluminum rivets come with aluminum  ;shanks or steel shanks and of course  ;a 
variety of head shapes. I will  ;be using the dome head but I am  ;unsure of the

type  of rivet I&nbs p;need and the length.  I estimate th e lexan, rib cap strip 
and aluminium&n bsp;reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch  ;in total thickness.

Can anyone advise t he rivet length and rivet type I shou ld use for this.

Thanks

John CiolinoModel IV-1200
N9294Y 








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________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:20 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation Rex, You are right the rivnuts are the best way to attach.. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rexster Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation I too followed the manual on installation. When I had to drill out each rivet to replace the windshield the first time, I replaced the rivets with screws instead. I'm not sure, but they may have been called rivnuts. A small insert went into the material first and then the countersunk screw with a big countersunk washer under it distributes the load. I've changed the windshield one more time since then and the job was a piece of cake. Same story for the rivets on the doors. I used stainless steel screws for all. Rex in Michigan Model 3, 912, 80 HP Warpdrive 1999 completion -- "john oakley" wrote: John, My fox is also 92 vintage. I used the aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrill thinking that the steel would pull too hard and cause cracking. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ciolino Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manual (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets except to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap strip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ========================sp; - The Kitfox-List;the many List utilities such as the ================================================ - NEW MAontent now also available via the Web ===================================== ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:52 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation That shoots my idea of filling the floats with water... Oh well. The idea of filling the floats with foam is a good one if you are planning on landing in questionable places. If you rip the bottom out of a float you can just keep on going. Something like Full Lotus on steroids ;-) I guess. Sure wish I knew how to do the 3D modelling in AutoCAD. When you get it done post it so we can learn how you did it. 2D I'm ok at. When it comes to the 3D and filling.... Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:23 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation > > > > the floats are a scaled down version of the northaires that > were made of fiberglass. They are foam filled with no > hatches or pump outs.. I am not fond of the foam filling or > no pump outs, but they are on my brothers plane not mine! I > have a set of the northaire drawings, and will copy them in > autocad, then scale them to the dimensions he has. After > that it will be easy to find the volume... now I just need > time to model them in cad. > > I installed the floats on his plane last week and did the > test flying. solo it was great, but with 2 200+ guys, a full > nose tank and 7 gallns in the wing, it was a bit of a slug to > get off the water. she sat a little low for my liking, but > most beaver drivers up here will tell you that any float left > sticking out of the water is wasted revenue (only partialy > kidding here). > > -------- > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > 95% complete > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126583#126583 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/imga0086_664.jpg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:58 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation When the Lexan went on, I used stainless truss head sheet metal screws. One or two have needed re-tightening over time but otherwise no problems. Gotta be alot easier than drilling out pop-rivets come replacement time. Rexster wrote: I too followed the manual on installation. When I had to drill out each rivet to replace the windshield the first time, I replaced the rivets with screws instead. I'm not sure, but they may have been called rivnuts. A small insert went into the material first and then the countersunk screw with a big countersunk washer under it distributes the load. I've changed the windshield one more time since then and the job was a piece of cake. Same story for the rivets on the doors. I used stainless steel screws for all. Rex in Michigan Model 3, 912, 80 HP Warpdrive 1999 completion -- "john oakley" wrote: John, My fox is also 92 vintage. I used the aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrill thinking that the steel would pull too hard and cause cracking. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ciolino Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manual (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets except to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap strip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ========================sp; - The Kitfox-List;the many List utilities such as the ================================================ - NEW MAontent now also available via the Web ===================================== Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:31 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera Flying with the door open and taking pictures is thrilling! My camera is basically a right hand operated unit so looking through the viewfinder just isn't possible. I can point in a rough direction and press the button with reasonable results. I make sure I have a strap from the camera around my neck when the door is open and there is no paper or maps out to blow around. This picture taken out an open door of my home (with boathouse) Camera was actually held upside down and shutter was released with my thumb. Picture was later cropped and resized. Picture taken two years ago. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:34 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Sliding window for camera > > > > Anyone know of a simple way to add a small sliding window to > the upper door of a kitfox? I saw a picture once where > someone converted the whole top half of the door into hinged > window but I was thinking of something simpler. I just need > to open a whole large enough to stick the lense of a camera > through. My sister wants to explore some aerial photography > from my kitfox but she's too chicken to fly with the doors > off (come to think of it, so am I) and I don't think she can > get a good quality picture shooting through the lexan. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126638#126638 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:29 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera Slowing down is good. So is not slipping to the open door! Came close once while step taxiing. (honest) Fresh air is ok too. The view when the door opens!!!! Awesome! Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > kitfoxmike > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:57 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera > > > > > Slow down and open the door, ya right, I haven't done that > yet, but I'm getting my nerve up, may do it yet. > > -------- > kitfoxmike > model IV, 1200 > speedster > 912ul > building > RV7a > slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit > "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA > then you're not flying enough" > Do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126645#126645 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:28 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera Keep your turns coordinated and neither of you will have any problems. Fly slow and try to fly parallel to the area photographed. If you need to go around and fly by again. Remember most cameras are mildly wide angle which is ok on the deck but when you're at 3-500 ft a little zoom helps. I stay away from turns at slow speeds. I never know what I have until I get home. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:12 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera > > > > I had the passenger door pop open on me on my first solo with > the Kitfox so I know it's not a big deal. My instructor was > unfamiliar witht he door latch and I failed to double check > that it was secure. That was the passenger door though and I > had to change my shorts after as it was. I can't imagine what > it would be like for my sister to hold a camera out an open > door while hanging out the bottom of a turn while I try to > keep the target in view. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126652#126652 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:52 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "wingnut" The snapvent idea is kind of what I had in mind but I need a larger opening. I've seen pictures of conventional airplanes with rectangular sections of window that slide open that would be perfect. I figured that I'd have to fabricate something similar but I have no idea how to go about it. rexinator(at)gmail.com wrote: > A snap vent probably the simplest vent and I expect you could just leave > it out before flight to use for photos. > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/vents.html > > Rexinator > > wingnut wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone know of a simple way to add a small sliding window to the upper door of a kitfox? I saw a picture once where someone converted the whole top half > > > > -- > > > > > Rex Hefferan > SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126770#126770 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:00 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation From: "akflyer" I just did the 2D to the correct scale and sent it off to my kid so he can do it in 3D....The only class in highschool he likes or bothers to apply himself in is the Acad Drafting class.. Staight A's in that class. One of these days I will learn how to do the 3D. I will post it up when he gets it done. -------- Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126780#126780 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:03 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "kitfoxmike" you mean like these: -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126783#126783 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/deerpark2_354.jpg ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "kitfoxmike" only one went through -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126784#126784 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:18 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation John, It would be best to stay away from using rivets as you have no control over the compression they apply. I have not installed my windshield yet but I have been through A&P classes that teach using a slightly bigger hole than your fastener with possibly a flex sleeve that will seal. It's good to know that most plastics have a thermal expansion rate at about twice that of alluminum and other alloys. What that means is if your windshield is fastened tight with a rivet your windshield will expand in the sun more than your rivet and result in cracking. FWIW Dan B, Mesa AZ KF-IV , 912 S john oakley wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Rex, You are right the rivnuts are the best way to attach.. John Oakley --------------------------------- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rexster Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivets for windshield installation I too followed the manual on installation. When I had to drill out each rivet to replace the windshield the first time, I replaced the rivets with screws instead. I'm not sure, but they may have been called rivnuts. A small insert went into the material first and then the countersunk screw with a big countersunk washer under it distributes the load. I've changed the windshield one more time since then and the job was a piece of cake. Same story for the rivets on the doors. I used stainless steel screws for all. Rex in Michigan Model 3, 912, 80 HP Warpdrive 1999 completion -- "john oakley" wrote: John, My fox is also 92 vintage. I used the aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrill thinking that the steel would pull too hard and cause cracking. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ciolino Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Question on Rivet for windshield installation I am replacing my windshield with 3/32 (.90) lexan. The builder's manual (from 1992) gives a Skystar part number for the pop rivets used the hold the windshield/skylight to the butt ribs but does not describe the rivets except to say they are aluminum. Aluminum rivets come with aluminum shanks or steel shanks and of course a variety of head shapes. I will be using the dome head but I am unsure of the type of rivet I need and the length. I estimate the lexan, rib cap strip and aluminium reinforcement strip are about 1/4 inch in total thickness. Can anyone advise the rivet length and rivet type I should use for this. Thanks John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y ========================sp; - The Kitfox-List;the many List utilities such as the ======================= - NEW MAontent now also available via the Web ============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:33 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "kitfoxmike" lets try this again -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126788#126788 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/deerpark2_187.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/deerpark1_845.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/deerpark_850.jpg ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:50 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "kitfoxmike" You have to view the pics from bottom to top, it was an entry into runway16. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126789#126789 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:15 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation Thanks... I'll be watching for it. When he draws it up tell him to put in a water line (X) inches below the deck. You decide the value of X. Then he will be able to get a volume below that line and from that you can calculate the displacement in lb. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:39 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: need engineer type to run a calculation > > > > I just did the 2D to the correct scale and sent it off to my > kid so he can do it in 3D....The only class in highschool he > likes or bothers to apply himself in is the Acad Drafting > class.. Staight A's in that class. > > One of these days I will learn how to do the 3D. I will post > it up when he gets it done. > > -------- > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > 95% complete > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126780#126780 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "Tom Jones" Luis, your question has got me thinking about this. There is no way my photographer (wife) is going to fly with the door open or off either. I just went out and sat on the passenger side. The place I would need a camera port is too curved for a sliding window. I think a hinged window would work easier. Why don't you have her sit in the airplane and mark where the camera port needs to be for her? Cut a rectangular hole and go fly with her to see if it works. When you have it the right size and place make a door that swings down to open??? By the way, I fly a lot in helicopters with the doos off. There is no way you could pry me out of there with a crow bar even if the seat belt came loose. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126806#126806 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera From: "wingnut" Good point. I was looking at a Cherokee 6 tonight that had exactly that kind of setup. It looked really simple. Just a rectangle cut out of the window with a door piano hinged at the bottom. The material used in that Cherokee's window is nice and thick so the access door made of the same material was quite sturdy. I'm concerned that the thinner material used in my window will make a flimsy access door requiring some kind of stiffener around the edge. Hope it doesn't come out too ugly. > Luis, your question has got me thinking about this. There is no way my photographer (wife) is going to fly with the door open or off either. I just went out and sat on the passenger side. The place I would need a camera port is too curved for a sliding window. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126821#126821 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:05 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera I had found this EAA link (for members only) which discusses a way to fabricate such a window opening. Since you said "simple" I didn't send it before. http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/canopy/Installing%20a%20Canopy%20Window...Why%20and%20How%20....html (or log in to EAA.org and search for: "canopy window" in "Search Members Only" ) Rex -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:16 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera Just take the door off and then you don't have to go through the door opening shock. Tie the camera to the plane or person. Lens cap off the camera and in the pocket (so it does not flap around). Actually I don't take the door off very often. It is easier to just open the door and use the rudder to raise or lower it. The slower you fly the higher the door floats, and the easier to open and close. Jim Shumaker ----- Original Message ---- From: wingnut Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:42:06 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sliding window for camera I had the passenger door pop open on me on my first solo with the Kitfox so I know it's not a big deal. My instructor was unfamiliar witht he door latch and I failed to double check that it was secure. That was the passenger door though and I had to change my shorts after as it was. I can't imagine what it would be like for my sister to hold a camera out an open door while hanging out the bottom of a turn while I try to keep the target in view. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126652#126652 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.