---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/02/07: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:34 AM - Guy's article in Sport Aviation (Lynn Matteson) 2. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Lowell Fitt Accident (Michel Verheughe) 3. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Crash Followup (jdmcbean) 4. 11:12 AM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (debrun26@juno.com) 5. 11:37 AM - Re: Guy's article in Sport Aviation (Guy Buchanan) 6. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Lowell Fitt Accident (Guy Buchanan) 7. 11:54 AM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (Clem Nichols) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (fox5flyer) 9. 12:35 PM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (GENTRYLL@aol.com) 10. 02:05 PM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (Peter Graichen) 11. 04:47 PM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (John W. Hart) 12. 05:08 PM - Re: South East Kitfox Owners (kitfoxjim) 13. 05:51 PM - Seat Reinforcement (kitfoxjim) 14. 05:58 PM - Lowell Fitt Accident - Update (jdmcbean) 15. 06:15 PM - Re: Seat Reinforcement (fox5flyer) 16. 06:55 PM - Re: Sooby NSI engine (debrun26@juno.com) 17. 07:16 PM - Re: Seat Reinforcement (CDE2fly@aol.com) 18. 08:43 PM - Re: Lowell Fitt Accident - Update (Steve Shinabery) 19. 09:13 PM - Re: Kitfoxes at Kitty Hawk Oct 6 (wingnut) 20. 09:22 PM - Seat Reinforcement (Zimmermans) 21. 10:12 PM - Re: Lowell Fitt Accident (John Allen) 22. 11:11 PM - Re: Lowell Fitt Accident - Update (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:49 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Guy's article in Sport Aviation Congrats to Guy Buchanan for getting his article published in the September issue....now we know who Bob Ducar is...he's one of the seven people pictured, right? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/395+ hrs do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:08 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lowell Fitt Accident On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:57 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > How's that for nonsense? I beg to differ, Guy, what you write is everything but nonsense! :-) Of course if car meets car, the heaviest wins. But I still feel safer in my very light Kitfox ... unless I had an aircraft heavier than ... the earth. And I am sorry I called it a Cherokee, it was, of course, a Bonanza. As seen from here, all those Pipers look the same. :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:13 AM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Crash Followup Dido Guy... Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Crash Followup At 11:34 AM 9/1/2007, you wrote: >Does ANYONE have any info on what happened? Has anyone got an >update on Lowell and his wifes condition? Hi all, Since Lowell's condition was fairly satisfactory I was waiting until he got back on the web to explain. I understand, though, your concerns so I will pass on what I have received second hand. (Mark Ferkin talking to Lowell by cell.) I have been unwilling to pester him by phone since Mark and others have passed on my solicitations, and right now it appears Lowell does not need additional assistance. Lowell crushed a lower back disk and was to go into surgery yesterday, (Friday,) morning. Otherwise he was in fairly good repair. He apparently handled the recovery of the airplane himself by phone and so did not need any assistance from me in that regard. I have not yet heard the results of the surgery. His wife Kay apparently gashed her knee bad enough to require some surgery, (it didn't sound major,) but was otherwise OK. I will not comment on the accident at all as I'm sure that can wait until Lowell returns. As I said, this is second hand, so I hope I have it right. In any case I believe Lowell will return to us fairly soon to set things straight. Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 5:21 PM 4:20 PM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:01 AM PST US From: "debrun26@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I have an NSI engine with throttle body injection.... and was wondering if I should be flying with the fuel pump on all the time? Once in a whi le while idling on the ground the engine will quit and on climb out it d rops rpm as though it's choking, and then will go back to full power. I thought it might be a fuel filter problem but there wasn't one. Fuel f low seems OK but i wonder if it needs more under full power? Layne S5 Anchorage, Alaska _____________________________________________________________ Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree. http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifnDVZ4PBWQsv3Cqhm4J2CRt oZksfZfZFN4Fnp9rCP8EivmT/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:58 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Guy's article in Sport Aviation At 03:38 AM 9/2/2007, you wrote: >Congrats to Guy Buchanan for getting his article published in the >September issue....now we know who Bob Ducar is...he's one of the >seven people pictured, right? Thanks Lynn, Actually no. I sent in two pictures of Bob, before and after, but neither were "digital quality" so I imagine that's why they didn't use them. Bob wasn't there for first flight which is what's pictured on the lead page. It was a shame, as I was really hoping to get his picture into the article. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:58 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lowell Fitt Accident At 03:54 AM 9/2/2007, you wrote: >And I am sorry I called it a Cherokee, it was, of course, a Bonanza. >As seen from here, all those Pipers look the same. :-) THEM'S FIGHTEN' WORDS, BOY! ;-) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:46 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I run mine from startup to shutdown. Am I not supposed to? Clem Nichols Model 4-1200 ----- Original Message ----- From: debrun26@juno.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I have an NSI engine with throttle body injection.... and was wondering if I should be flying with the fuel pump on all the time? Once in a while while idling on the ground the engine will quit and on climb out it drops rpm as though it's choking, and then will go back to full power. I thought it might be a fuel filter problem but there wasn't one. Fuel flow seems OK but i wonder if it needs more under full power? Layne S5 Anchorage, Alaska _____________________________________________________________ Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:54 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine To answer your question (assuming you have the normally aspirated version), after I reach cruising rpm/speed/altitude I shut my fuel pump off. I only use it for start, climb, and landing. The other symptoms you describe sound like it's running rich. The Ellison throttle body is a very simple carb and once it's adjusted correctly it should hold indefinitely. Do you have a fuel pressure indicator? Possibly your fuel pump is putting out too much pressure? I believe it should be around 4-5psi when it's pumping. Although it doesn't sound like ignition, you might try shutting off one of the ignitions when it's acting up to see if it changes anything. If you're in the air I'd recommend that you only do this when you have an airport under you. Hope this helps a little. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT ----- Original Message ----- From: debrun26@juno.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I have an NSI engine with throttle body injection.... and was wondering if I should be flying with the fuel pump on all the time? Once in a while while idling on the ground the engine will quit and on climb out it drops rpm as though it's choking, and then will go back to full power. I thought it might be a fuel filter problem but there wasn't one. Fuel flow seems OK but i wonder if it needs more under full power? Layne S5 Anchorage, Alaska _____________________________________________________________ Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:14 PM PST US From: GENTRYLL@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I had tremendous trouble with mine, flooding, running too rich, fouling plugs, etc.. It went back to Ellison six times for repair at a cost high enough that I could have bought a new one. I talked to Ram Performance and was going to put his entire intake on mine to get back to flying. He said to drop the pressure from 4 to 5 as recomment by Ellison and run 1 1/2 to 2. I did and it has run perfectly since. http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:12 PM PST US From: "Peter Graichen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine Hello Layne: I run mine with electric fuel pump running from startup until shutdown. It runs at about 4.5 psi Peter ________________________________ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Sunday, 02 September, 2007 14:07 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I have an NSI engine with throttle body injection.... and was wondering if I should be flying with the fuel pump on all the time? Once in a while while idling on the ground the engine will quit and on climb out it drops rpm as though it's choking, and then will go back to full power. I thought it might be a fuel filter problem but there wasn't one. Fuel flow seems OK but i wonder if it needs more under full power? Layne S5 Anchorage, Alaska _____________________________________________________________ Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:21 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine The Operating Limits for the NSI EA81 Engines, provided by NSI states, "Special Note: Engine fuel starvation will begin to effect full power operation with less than 3 psi. Maximum power setting will continue to drop as fuel pressure decreases. (Below 3 PSI)". John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine I have an NSI engine with throttle body injection.... and was wondering if I should be flying with the fuel pump on all the time? Once in a while while idling on the ground the engine will quit and on climb out it drops rpm as though it's choking, and then will go back to full power. I thought it might be a fuel filter problem but there wasn't one. Fuel flow seems OK but i wonder if it needs more under full power? Layne S5 Anchorage, Alaska _____________________________________________________________ Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: South East Kitfox Owners From: "kitfoxjim" Hi Greenville I live about 50 miles from Greenville. Be glad to fly in to 34A. Kust let me knpw a good day. I have a Vixen. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132415#132415 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Seat Reinforcement From: "kitfoxjim" Wow! Had a close one yesterday. Has anyone had a seat failure? I have a Vixen and was doing touch and goes in windy conditions for practice. Had a fairly hard but not esp hard landing. When I lifted off again, I noticed the controls were locked. I then noticed the seat had broke loose and was against control tubes. Managed to get it down by holding my weight off the seat by grabbing the tubing overhead long enough to get down. but was very scary Any suggestions on reinforcing the seat so this wont happen again? Thanks kitfoxjim Kitfox Vixen Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132417#132417 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:11 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: Kitfox-List: Lowell Fitt Accident - Update Talked with Lowell today... The following is some info and I'm sure Lowell will fill us in on more of the details later. Lowell had a gradual loss of Oil Pressure that eventually went to Zero.. He chose to land with power before an engine seize. Lowell and Kaye's current condition is very good. They both have major sprained ankles and that is the extent of Kaye's injuries. Lowell also bumped his head pretty good and has a lumbar disc fracture. The docs feel that wearing a brace for a bit may allow for healing without the need for surgery. I shared with them the thoughts and prayers from the list. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" 4:20 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:05 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Seat Reinforcement It's good that you're okay, Jim. We had a member on this list who, several years ago, had the exact same thing happen to him on landing. The nylon cable ties broke loose on a hard landing, the seat dropped down on the main elevator control rod, locking it. He lost control and wrecked the airplane pretty bad. I believe it was a series 5 and I think he had a passenger. That prompted many of us to add additional support straps to hold the seat in place. Some used stainless steel straps. I used seat belt 2" wide straps. Others placed blocks of wood under the seat so that it couldn't drop down. There were other fixes, but I don't recall what they were. Perhaps other members can add something. It's good that your quick and clear thinking was able to save both the airplane and probably your life. This is obviously something others should have a good look at. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "kitfoxjim" Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 7:48 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Seat Reinforcement > > Wow! Had a close one yesterday. Has anyone had a seat failure? I have a Vixen and was doing touch and goes in windy conditions for practice. Had a fairly hard but not esp hard landing. When I lifted off again, I noticed the controls were locked. > > I then noticed the seat had broke loose and was against control tubes. Managed to get it down by holding my weight off the seat by grabbing the tubing overhead long enough to get down. but was very scary > > Any suggestions on reinforcing the seat so this wont happen again? > > Thanks > kitfoxjim > Kitfox Vixen > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132417#132417 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:24 PM PST US From: "debrun26@juno.com" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Sooby NSI engine WOW!!! Thanks so much for the help... I don't have a pressure indicator for the fuel but there is a vaccuum pressure indicator even though ther e isn't anything run by vaccuum that I can tell. Since most of you run all the time with the pump running, I'll start dong it also. Peter, I d id a compression test and found that my clinders varied from 80 lbs to 1 35 lbs dry, and 140 to 220 lbs wet. Does this mean that I need both a r ing and valve job (with your stainless steel valves)? Layne _____________________________________________________________ Click to slash your phone bill by up to 90%. Discounted VoIP service http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifCteStn5Fm1Kgz7S6s1uphG mJ7eHY1FWK372gtW5UVJTWd9/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:17 PM PST US From: CDE2fly@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Seat Reinforcement Jim: I'm nearing the completion of a Kitfox 7 and have looked at this issue fearing the same possibility. My solution was to fabricate a couple of slings that go under each side of the seat (total of 4 in all) andwrap around the structural tubeing that suports the seat. The slings are fabricated from steel strapping normally used for pipe hanger material that can by purchased at most hardware/home improvement stores in the plumbing department. The strapping comes with pre-formed holes so once you have the correct length so that the fiberglass seatpan rests on the slings, secure with AN hardware. After installing the slings, the seats are very solid and will withstand much more load than the stock setup. Chris http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:08 PM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lowell Fitt Accident - Update I think that all of us here on the list,Wish Lowell+Kay the best.and that they are in our prayers. Steve Shinabery,St.Marys Oh.,N554KF KF2 jdmcbean wrote: > > Talked with Lowell today... The following is some info and I'm sure Lowell > will fill us in on more of the details later. > > Lowell had a gradual loss of Oil Pressure that eventually went to Zero.. He > chose to land with power before an engine seize. > > Lowell and Kaye's current condition is very good. They both have major > sprained ankles and that is the extent of Kaye's injuries. Lowell also > bumped his head pretty good and has a lumbar disc fracture. The docs feel > that wearing a brace for a bit may allow for healing without the need for > surgery. > > I shared with them the thoughts and prayers from the list. > > > Fly Safe !! > John & Debra McBean > 208.337.5111 > www.kitfoxaircraft.com > "It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!" > > > 4:20 PM > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfoxes at Kitty Hawk Oct 6 From: "wingnut" Well.. I guess I jumped the gun a little bit. Looks like the date for the KittyHawk gathering will be moving to the following weekend (Oct 13). The good news is that John King has confirmed that he will be attending. The list of confirmed attending has grown to six, four may be comming in as a flight of four from EWN. Should be exciting. Might be a little bit early to mention this but John King and I are in preliminary discusions about a new flight to The Bahamas in 2008. If anyone here hasn't seen it, there's a section on sportflight.com on Johns first trip to The Bahamas back in 04. It's a 'must read' for anyone entertaining such a trip. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132443#132443 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:02 PM PST US From: "Zimmermans" Subject: Kitfox-List: Seat Reinforcement I used nylon lifting straps. Jim Series 5 0-200 building. Lake Elmo MN. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:51 PM PST US From: John Allen Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lowell Fitt Accident Michel Verheughe wrote: "...a 30 feet wide, 900 pounds heavy object moving at 40 MPH shouldn't need much to come to a stop." While a slow deceleration of a light plane is desirable and survivable, what scares me about Lowell's accident is that I did not conceive a forced landing in an open field could be so destructive. I thought it would not be difficult to land in an open field in an emergency, which is what Lowell may have also thought. The way his plane balled up, it was lucky there was no ignition source to set it on fire. Without a fire, his accident proves that a forced landing in a Kitfox IV should be survivable even in a rapid deceleration situation. Most of the fatal accidents in Kitfoxes seem to have been stall-spins, boring in nearly straight down to a sudden stop. I think my IV Speedster stalls at around 50 MPH when landing fully loaded at 1200 lbs, not sure about the IV with longer wings. Your III model would have a better chance in a forced landing. Michel Verheughe also wrote: "Incidentally, a Zodiac 601 with a Rotax 912 from our club made an emergency landing in a field today. The engine stopped after a slow descent from 4,500 to 1,800 feet. Luckily the pilot was over one of those few regions of Norway where we have corn fields. After a while on the ground, the engine could be restarted and the plane flew back home. The suspected cause: carburettor icing." As to the Zodiac forced landing, the idea of carb ice is scary because I don't have the box on mine. My experience with carb ice is that the Bing carb shakes it loose from time to time and the 912 ingests it, stumbling briefly, then running at a little higher RPM than before. I have heard that it can make the 912 quit at certain low temperatures. Kitfox IV's supposedly have a risk of the engine quitting on long shallow descents due to fuel flow problems at shallow glide angles (whereby the flow to the header tank is not sloped down enough). I break up long descents by nosing up every so often. Could the Zodiac have a similar design issue with the fuel flow? Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:49 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lowell Fitt Accident - Update At 05:55 PM 9/2/2007, you wrote: >Lowell and Kaye's current condition is very good. They both have major >sprained ankles and that is the extent of Kaye's injuries. Lowell also >bumped his head pretty good and has a lumbar disc fracture. The docs feel >that wearing a brace for a bit may allow for healing without the need for >surgery. That just shows to go ya how good second hand information is! I'm glad though, your results were much better than mine. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 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