---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/05/07: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:43 AM - Re: Actual Build Time (W Duke) 2. 05:44 AM - Re: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time (Noel Loveys) 3. 06:06 AM - Series 7 POH (dwparker) 4. 06:25 AM - Re: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time (kitfoxmike) 5. 06:50 AM - Re: kitfox trim. (Lynn Matteson) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Folding wings (Marco Menezes) 7. 08:50 AM - Re: Folding wings (kitfoxmike) 8. 09:31 AM - Re: Series 7 POH (Noel Loveys) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: kitfox trim. (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 10. 09:51 AM - South Carolina Breakfast club at CUB this Sunday (wingnut) 11. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Folding wings (Noel Loveys) 12. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Folding wings (Noel Loveys) 13. 10:03 AM - float revisited (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 14. 10:06 AM - Re: Series 7 POH (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 15. 10:30 AM - Re: Actual Build Time (Marin Streeter) 16. 10:43 AM - Re: Actual Build Time (kitfoxmike) 17. 10:45 AM - Re: Folding wings (kitfoxmike) 18. 10:47 AM - Re: float revisited (wingnut) 19. 11:20 AM - Re: float revisited (kitfoxmike) 20. 11:31 AM - Re: float revisited (wingnut) 21. 11:40 AM - Re: float revisited (kitfoxmike) 22. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: float revisited (Marco Menezes) 23. 01:03 PM - Re: float revisited (dave) 24. 01:11 PM - Re: float revisited (kitfoxmike) 25. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: float revisited (Michel Verheughe) 26. 01:20 PM - Re: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time (Guy Buchanan) 27. 01:25 PM - Re: float revisited (wingnut) 28. 01:32 PM - Re: float revisited (dave) 29. 01:41 PM - Re: float revisited (kitfoxmike) 30. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: float revisited (Sbennett3@aol.com) 31. 01:52 PM - Re: float revisited (dave) 32. 03:01 PM - Re: Series 7 POH (Roger McConnell) 33. 05:39 PM - Re: Series 7 POH (kirk hull) 34. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: float revisited (Steve Shinabery) 35. 06:18 PM - Re: Actual Build Time? (PMorel) 36. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: Actual Build Time? (Kevin Cozik) 37. 07:44 PM - Gas Cap Gasket? (RAY Gignac) 38. 07:54 PM - Re: Actual Build Time (Randy Daughenbaugh) 39. 09:22 PM - Re: BMW 1100S (JSD) 40. 09:29 PM - Re: BMW 1100S (JSD) 41. 10:06 PM - Re: Gas Cap Gasket? (Clem Nichols) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:53 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Actual Build Time 1200 hours for my S6 with 3 colors and an IFR panel. Dirtbos wrote: Did a "build time" search with no luck. I would appreciate some input on the actual build time for the Series 7/Super Sport. Also, how practical is the folding wing feature? Is it as quick and easy as stated on the website? It would be nice not to have to pay hangar fees. Mike Allen Acton, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132794#132794 Maxwell Duke S6/TD/IO240 Dublin, GA --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:43 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time I fly on floats. The road,trail make that path into the pond where I launch the plane is quite rough. I keep the plane in my garage and trailer it round a mile on a low trailer each time I want to go flying. the plane is towed head on at 20km/hr and never more than 40km/hr (25 mph). Because of the access to the foot of the pond I always empty my tanks before trailering the plane. I would advise, if you are going to do a lot of trailering, the following: Empty the wing tanks Use wing spar supports which attach between the lower longeron and the front spar when the wings are folded. Get some kind of protection for your vertical stabilizer. When the wings are folded the ailerons can chafe the vertical stab and rudder. Tie the ailerons together when towing, especially in reverse. The supports that hold the wings in the towing position are almost famous for popping out of place. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:18 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time I too unfold and fold mine for every flight. It's great! I'd also mention draining fuel post-flight as an important consideration. There's already alot of weight on the tailwheel with wings folded and tanks empty. P.S. Real nice article in Sport Aviation, Guy. Beautiful airplane. Can you ID the people in the photo for us? Guy Buchanan wrote: At 05:36 PM 9/4/2007, you wrote: >Also, how practical is the folding wing feature? Is it as quick and >easy as stated on the website? It would be nice not to have to pay >hangar fees. It CAN be very practical. I fold every time I fly, usually 3-4 times per week, and store in a toy box. However I was very careful to make it as ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:25 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH From: "dwparker" I am nearing completion of my Series 7 and am trying to get all the documentation together for the inspector. I have everything except a POH. I have talked to Kitfox and they do not have one created yet. What have other Series 7 builders done to satisfy the POH requirement? Is there anyone out there that has one I can buy, beg, borrow, or steal? Thanks, Dana Parker Westport, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132867#132867 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:10 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time From: "kitfoxmike" Money is not an issue with me, so i have a nice T-hanger. I don't even want to think of folding wings. I fly every day, sometimes twice a day. I get to the airport and open the doors, 5 minutes later I'm in the air. Damage can happen with the kitfox if you get sloppy opening and closing the wings. I guess it would be ok if you had to do an off field and need to trailer it. I closed the wings once in 4 years. What a pain in the back side. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132871#132871 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:18 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox trim. On my initial flights, my test pilot and I moved the horizontal stab as low as it would go and drilled a new hole to accommodate the front attaching bolt. I then had to add a 3" tab to the trim tab to further give enough trim control to the elevator. I have since cut the added tab down to 2-3/4" because it is too sensitive to the electric trim control. I'll probably cut one eighth at a time until it suits me. This trim tab runs the full length...about 26"...of the electric trim tab. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/400+ hrs On Sep 3, 2007, at 6:34 PM, Sbennett3@aol.com wrote: > I recently purchased a kitfox 4 1200 with a rotax 912. When we > try to trim it out in cruise speed there is still a tendency to > nose down... I'm lazy and don't want the back pressure... Do any > of you guys use elevator trim and just move the flaperons full > forward ? Also, it's a torquey little beast at full power... It > likes a lot of right rudder on climbout... Should I bend the tail > trim a little further and use the rt. rudder less on climbout our > just get used to it ??? Any comments from you old pros will be > gladly accepted... Steve Bennett Durham NC. > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:46 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Sometimes I wish I could leave the wings open all the time for the kind of quick getaways you describe, Mike. But most times, I'm glad to have the Fox in the pole barn, 20 steps from my house where I can tinker with it whenever I want. Also, deploying and then refolding the wings each time you fly amounts to "automatic" pre and post flight inspections, which you'd do anyway. All considered, I don't see it as a "pain" at all, rather it's one of the reasons I'm glad I have a Kitfox. Money is not an issue with me, so i have a nice T-hanger. I don't even want to think of folding wings. I fly every day, sometimes twice a day. I get to the airport and open the doors, 5 minutes later I'm in the air. Damage can happen with the kitfox if you get sloppy opening and closing the wings. I guess it would be ok if you had to do an off field and need to trailer it. I closed the wings once in 4 years. What a pain in the back side. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132871#132871 Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:52 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings From: "kitfoxmike" My preinspection is done when I clean the airplane after most flights( I also do a quick looksy before every flight). I use a cheap window cleaner to clean the bugs off. I catch most problems when doing this. I concider folding the wings or unfolding, very much a risk, what I mean by this, something could be forgotten, from a distraction. Trailering a plane can also cause damage. I understand why some need to do it, I just don't wish to. I also know that once I put the airplane away, it is in the same condition as it was when I left it. That's why I won't go into a community hangar either. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132895#132895 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:33 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH You may want to check with your DAR on this but I believe as manufacturer of the airplane it is your responsibility to write the POH for your particular airplane. It doesn't have to be a thick document like the later model Cessna's have. Early super cubs had a POH/Maintenance Manual that was only a few pages. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwparker > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:36 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH > > > > > I am nearing completion of my Series 7 and am trying to get > all the documentation together for the inspector. I have > everything except a POH. I have talked to Kitfox and they do > not have one created yet. > > What have other Series 7 builders done to satisfy the POH > requirement? Is there anyone out there that has one I can > buy, beg, borrow, or steal? > > > Thanks, > Dana Parker > Westport, IN > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132867#132867 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:09 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox trim. Boy! This could become an embroiled discussion. My experience was just the opposite of Lynn's. Initially the horizontal was lowered to help "carve" around in the turns but we were not happy with the cruise trim. I believe we measured the flap setting to be 11 +/- degrees for level flight. Ultimately, we moved the horzontal stab to its highest setting, sealed the horizontal/elevator gap and trimmed for level flight with the flaperons. We set the ailerons at neutral with the jib then flew to assess the situation. It took very little up (forward handle) trim from that point for level flight at 90-95 kts. We picked up speed because we were no longer dragging the flap, they were acutually a little reflexed. We found that a little more rudder was needed in the turns but overall performance was improved significantly. John Kerr Classic IV/912, 766 hours as of this morning. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Lynn Matteson > > On my initial flights, my test pilot and I moved the horizontal stab > as low as it would go and drilled a new hole to accommodate the front > attaching bolt. I then had to add a 3" tab to the trim tab to further > give enough trim control to the elevator. I have since cut the added > tab down to 2-3/4" because it is too sensitive to the electric trim > control. I'll probably cut one eighth at a time until it suits me. > This trim tab runs the full length...about 26"...of the electric trim > tab. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/400+ hrs > > > On Sep 3, 2007, at 6:34 PM, Sbennett3@aol.com wrote: > > > I recently purchased a kitfox 4 1200 with a rotax 912. When we > > try to trim it out in cruise speed there is still a tendency to > > nose down... I'm lazy and don't want the back pressure... Do any > > of you guys use elevator trim and just move the flaperons full > > forward ? Also, it's a torquey little beast at full power... It > > likes a lot of right rudder on climbout... Should I bend the tail > > trim a little further and use the rt. rudder less on climbout our > > just get used to it ??? Any comments from you old pros will be > > gladly accepted... Steve Bennett Durham NC. > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > >
Boy! This could become an embroiled discussion.  My experience was just the opposite of Lynn's.  Initially the horizontal was lowered to help "carve" around in the turns but we were not happy with the cruise trim. I believe we measured the flap setting to be 11 +/- degrees for level flight. 
 
Ultimately, we moved the horzontal stab to its highest setting, sealed the horizontal/elevator gap and trimmed for level flight with the flaperons.  We set the ailerons at neutral with the jib then flew to assess the situation.  It took very little up (forward handle) trim from that point for level flight at 90-95 kts.  We picked up speed because we were no longer dragging the flap, they were acutually a little reflexed.
 
We found that a little more rudder was needed in the turns but overall performance was improved significantly.
 
John Kerr
Classic IV/912, 766 hours as of this morning.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>

> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson
>
> On my initial flights, my test pilot and I moved the horizontal stab
> as low as it would go and drilled a new hole to accommodate the front
> attaching bolt. I then had to add a 3" tab to the trim tab to further
> give enough trim control to the elevator. I have since cut the added
> tab down to 2-3/4" because it is too sensitive to the electric trim
> control. I'll probably cut one eighth at a time until it suits me.
> This trim tab runs the full length...about 26"...of the electric trim
> tab.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/400+ hrs
>
>
> O =====
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:20 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: South Carolina Breakfast club at CUB this Sunday From: "wingnut" The bi-monthly SCBC fly-in is going to Columbia-Owens Downtown airport (CUB) this weekend. This is also the home of EAA chapter 242. I'm not a member but I get the impression that it's large, active, well organized club. I'm thinking of joining despite the fact that it's based 60 miles away. Sure would be nice to not be the only Kitfox attending... -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132903#132903 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:01 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings As it takes me over an hour to tow my plane to the pond, spread the wings, fuel up, launch and pre flight and another hour to get it back on the trailer, tied down, defuled, wings folded, towed home and parked in a pretty small garage I can see where having a place to store the plane ready to go would be a big asset. If my home were on fresh water instead of salt it would only take me about ten minutes in and out each time. There would be no wing folding, tying down or towing. I would also have a different design of trailer for launching. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > kitfoxmike > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:21 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings > > > > > My preinspection is done when I clean the airplane after most > flights( I also do a quick looksy before every flight). I > use a cheap window cleaner to clean the bugs off. I catch > most problems when doing this. I concider folding the wings > or unfolding, very much a risk, what I mean by this, > something could be forgotten, from a distraction. Trailering > a plane can also cause damage. I understand why some need to > do it, I just don't wish to. I also know that once I put the > airplane away, it is in the same condition as it was when I > left it. That's why I won't go into a community hangar either. > > -------- > kitfoxmike > model IV, 1200 > speedster > 912ul > building > RV7a > slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit > "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA > then you're not flying enough" > Do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132895#132895 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:01 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings My sentiments exactly ! No pole barn but a small garage. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Sometimes I wish I could leave the wings open all the time for the kind of quick getaways you describe, Mike. But most times, I'm glad to have the Fox in the pole barn, 20 steps from my house where I can tinker with it whenever I want. Also, deploying and then refolding the wings each time you fly amounts to "automatic" pre and post flight inspections, which you'd do anyway. All considered, I don't see it as a "pain" at all, rather it's one of the reasons I'm glad I have a Kitfox. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:20 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Kitfox-List: float revisited The commments about float got me thinking about my own landing profile so this morning I went up 2000' above pattern altitude and flew a mock approach keeping the speed glued at 1.3 x stall which for my plane is 52 IAS. Some observations, sink showed 5-600 on the VSI. Control was excellent, though attention needed to be paid to the rudder as the ball tended to slide to the right. Carrying the same methodology to the pattern showed the same thing but I found myself just a little short of my touch down point. I had carried the turn to base a little far given the 6kts down the runway. Touch down was with very little flair required because the attitude at 52 is close to three-point. When I did flair speed dropped off quickly and the plane planted with no float. I had to power up to get off the numbers. Roll was under 200'. Given the tendency for the Kitfox to lose momentum quickly it is natural to carry a little extra speed for safety margin, but I believe we then start carry a little extra margin over the original margin. Everyone needs to fly the numbers they are comfortable but understand what your plane is telling telling you. AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed. John Kerr Trying to become one with my plane, whichever one I happen to be flying at the moment.
The commments about float got me thinking about my own landing profile so this morning I went up 2000' above pattern altitude and flew a mock approach keeping the speed glued at 1.3 x stall which for my plane is 52 IAS.
 
Some observations, sink showed 5-600 on the VSI. Control was excellent, though attention needed to be paid to the rudder as the ball tended to slide to the right.
 
Carrying the same methodology to the pattern showed the same thing but I found myself just a little short of my touch down point.  I had carried the turn to base a little far given the 6kts down the runway. Touch down was with very little flair required because the attitude at 52 is close to three-point.  When I did flair speed dropped off quickly and the plane planted with no float. I had to power up to get off the numbers.  Roll was under 200'.
 
Given the tendency for the Kitfox to lose momentum quickly it is natural to carry a little extra speed for safety margin, but I believe we then start carry a little extra margin over the original margin.  Everyone needs to fly the numbers they are comfortable but understand what your plane is telling telling you.
 
AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed.
 
John Kerr
Trying to become one with my plane, whichever one I happen to be flying at the moment.
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:40 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:44 AM PST US From: "Marin Streeter" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Actual Build Time Mike Thought I could get you an answer to your question on build time but I ran in to the same thing as you. I looked on Kitlog.com and found one builder but he has not done anything yet so he has no time logged. I also checked on Expercraft.com and found one but he has not bought the kit yet. I see you have heard the entire why and why not on the folding wings. Why is it they do not want to answer your original question as to actual build time? Marin Streeter -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirtbos Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Actual Build Time Did a "build time" search with no luck. I would appreciate some input on the actual build time for the Series 7/Super Sport. Also, how practical is the folding wing feature? Is it as quick and easy as stated on the website? It would be nice not to have to pay hangar fees. Mike Allen Acton, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132794#132794 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:46 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Actual Build Time From: "kitfoxmike" Like has been said. It all depends on money, time, and your ability to do mechanical things. 3 years ago I rebuilt my fox. I built a new right wing, welded the tail section, refabricated and painted, time was 5 months. I'm building an rv7(slow build), I started last novenber and I'm fitting the finishing kit, getting ready to paint, ordering the engine. My thoughts are, go back to line one. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132915#132915 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:31 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Folding wings From: "kitfoxmike" wife keeps telling my I'm spoiled. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132916#132916 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:02 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "wingnut" My thoughts exactly. No need to drag the airplane in with power or force her down with a slip. All you have to do is slow down and she comes down just fine on her own. The slower you go, the steeper your angle of descent and the less she's going to float when you flair. Not to say that I'm all that good at it myself mind you. It's just what I was taught but everythign I've observed is consistent with this. > Carrying the same methodology to the pattern showed the same thing but I found myself just a little short of my touch down point. I had carried the turn to base a little far given the 6kts down the runway. Touch down was with very little flair required because the attitude at 52 is close to three-point. When I did flair speed dropped off quickly and the plane planted with no float. I had to power up to get off the numbers. Roll was under 200'. > > Given the tendency for the Kitfox to lose momentum quickly it is natural to carry a little extra speed for safety margin, but I believe we then start carry a little extra margin over the original margin. Everyone needs to fly the numbers they are comfortable but understand what your plane is telling telling you. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132917#132917 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:09 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "kitfoxmike" You mentioned the centering of the ball. Hummmm. I remember when I was doing training for my tailwheel and the CFI told me NOT to look at the ball when landing. So I learned NOT to look at the ball. I center the aircraft to the runway by eye sight. I also remember putting a mark on the windshield for doing such a thing. I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked. Now the speed for landing, when coming over the approach end of the runway should be about 50 IAS, I agree with that one. That is if you are going to do a three point(tail wheel), if you want a nice wheel landing, the speed just as you touch should be no higher than 55 IAS. For a three point, 50 over the approach end is about right, with 35IAS being indicated as you hit the flair and touch down. That's given my stall at 38IAS with ground effect being factored in. Now I do all kinds of landings, I prepare myself for anything. Today there was plenty of traffic so I held 107kts ground speed until about 1 mile out and then pulled to full idle and flattened the prop, as soon as I cleared the trees about 2000ft out I slipped to about 30ft off and then leveled out to slow me to about 55 then I had to add a little power to stop the decent and made a real nice short landing on the numbers. To tell you the truth, I don't know what a text book landing is anymore. I know what to do no matter where I enter the pattern, 5 mile straight in, to 90 degree(bearing) base to final over the runway. I can pick up on the speeds needed for a nice landing. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132920#132920 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:41 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "wingnut" > I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked. Isn't that the definition of a forward slip? I thought that was ok as long as you straitened the plane out before touch down.. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132924#132924 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:50 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "kitfoxmike" You should't be looking at the ball just as you touch down. With that I never look at the ball when slipping either. Why, it's alway pushed to one side. I use full rudder when slipping. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132929#132929 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:32 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive. > I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked. Isn't that the definition of a forward slip? I thought that was ok as long as you straitened the plane out before touch down.. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132924#132924 Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:44 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "dave" are you saying you should not side slip ? Plenty of it here in a Kitfox [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j7aBw90n9U [/url] Regards, Dave -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132943#132943 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:31 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "kitfoxmike" Heck no. What I'm saying is don't be looking at the ball when you land. You know the last ten feet before touch down. Look out the window and square the airplane. Myself, I'm a slipping fool. Both side and straight slips. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132945#132945 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:06 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited On Sep 5, 2007, at 9:33 PM, Marco Menezes wrote: > Personally, I wouldn't want tobe cross-controlling on a short field > final approach,close to the ground at or near stall speed. I do. All the time. Even a few yards from the threshold, I violently put the plane on the side if I feel I have too much speed. The only time it developed an ill effect is when my tail stalled, not the wings. The thing is: you do forward slip when you feel you have too much speed and if not loosing it pronto, you'll float a lot before touching down. If I am already near stall speed, there is no need to slow down even more. But, of course, this has to be trained for at a safe altitude first. About centering the ball when landing ... I never look at any instrument. My instructor told me: "Feel the Force, young Skywalker, feel the Force!" It is the moment the seat of my pants is the only one to be trusted. Mind you, dear master Yoda, after 350 hours on this Kitfox, many of my landings are still ugly. Too much speed ... oops! ... stall out of the flare too high ... ooops! But once in a while it's a nice and smooth one! ... "Ahhhhh! Was it good for you too?" asks Tango, my beloved Kitfox. You bet! :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:06 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Folding wings - Was Actual Build Time At 09:47 PM 9/4/2007, you wrote: >I too unfold and fold mine for every flight. It's great! I'd also >mention draining fuel post-flight as an important consideration. >There's already alot of weight on the tailwheel with wings folded >and tanks empty. I built a special vent system so I wouldn't have to empty the tanks. It's been working great. Note that I don't trailer with full tanks, just store. > P.S. Real nice article in Sport Aviation, Guy. Beautiful airplane. > Can you ID the people in the photo for us? Thanks. Unfortunately the two pictures of Bob I submitted were not very good, as they were scans of bad film pictures. I doctored them as much as I could, but obviously they didn't make the grade. It was unfortunate, as I had before and after pictures which I thought really helped make the story. In the group shot are: in addition to my two kids, my father on the right, then me, then Ken and Stan, a couple of local RV builders and my ground crew, and then one of Ken's friends, whose name I don't remember. I couldn't get any local Kitfox people to help out. Sad. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:37 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "wingnut" Well.. I'm not really talking about my 'technique' so much as just regurgitating what I remember from my lessons and sharing what I think is working for me so far. I find these discussions useful in helping me refine things further and also in helping me really nail down how much of the early training I got in a 172 is really useful with my Kitfox. What makes it all the more interesting is seeing how much variation there is from pilot to pilot. Im really surprised that there isnt more consistency. As for watching the ball on approach.. I wouldnt do that either. I was just suggesting that, if you find yourself flying crooked on final but youre flying strait to the runway, then youre probably encountering some cross wind and a forward slip is appropriate. > Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132949#132949 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "dave" Well , I sideslip on nearly every landing to some degree and alot of the time with 20 degres flaperons . Now on a 172 or 152 you would not want to side slip with flaps but we talkinga Kitfox. Very docile and fun to fly. I will side slip right to the final flare at 10 feet above lading area (sand,snow,water grass whatever) AS far as consistency of pilots, I agree alot have less experience that others and in time they will experience more and more skills. How bout some videos so that we can all learn from each other ? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132951#132951 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "kitfoxmike" talking about cross controlling a fox. Huh! I do it all the time. The only time mine is flying straight, ball centered, is when at a cruise. I've done flat turns on take off(use of rudder and opposite aileron), I've done flat turns over the runway(zig zag) back and forth over the runway 2ft off(use of rudder and opposite aileron), I've done all kinds of cross control with NO ill effects. Of course I do watch the ol' speed thing when doing this. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132952#132952 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:16 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited In a message dated 9/5/2007 3:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, msm_9949@yahoo.com writes: Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive. I just did 5 take off and landings in a cross wind with the nose pointed into the wind atleast 10 degrees. Let the plane fly and in ground effect straiten up and land. Kitfox's spin ??? Anything will spin if the limit is pressed, but not doing crosswind landings. Are you maybe talking about a ground loop ??? Steve B 4-912 http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:40 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited From: "dave" John, You have hit the nail on the head with excess speed. Seems that alot are afraid to explore the envelope and practice slow flight ? How aften does Kitfox pilots actually do stalls ? Mine is fully stalled nearly every landing. :) > AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed. > > -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132955#132955 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:11 PM PST US From: "Roger McConnell" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH Others may disagree but I do not think a POH is needed to get your aircraft inspected and a temporary airworthiness certificate issued. I had two inspectors from the FAA offices in OK City check me out and they never asked about a POH. You just need to fill out all the FAA forms and make sure they are worded exactly the same letter for letter word for word. Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls Flying sense Jan. 06 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwparker Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:06 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH I am nearing completion of my Series 7 and am trying to get all the documentation together for the inspector. I have everything except a POH. I have talked to Kitfox and they do not have one created yet. What have other Series 7 builders done to satisfy the POH requirement? Is there anyone out there that has one I can buy, beg, borrow, or steal? Thanks, Dana Parker Westport, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132867#132867 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:59 PM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH The purpose of the test phase is to generate the information for the POH. You cant print the book before you have written the story. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger McConnell Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH Others may disagree but I do not think a POH is needed to get your aircraft inspected and a temporary airworthiness certificate issued. I had two inspectors from the FAA offices in OK City check me out and they never asked about a POH. You just need to fill out all the FAA forms and make sure they are worded exactly the same letter for letter word for word. Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls Flying sense Jan. 06 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwparker Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:06 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 POH I am nearing completion of my Series 7 and am trying to get all the documentation together for the inspector. I have everything except a POH. I have talked to Kitfox and they do not have one created yet. What have other Series 7 builders done to satisfy the POH requirement? Is there anyone out there that has one I can buy, beg, borrow, or steal? Thanks, Dana Parker Westport, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132867#132867 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:04 PM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: float revisited Dave looks like,Fri night.I will drive down to wing nuts my car with camping gear.Tim will fly 172 down.stay Fri night.then sat night we will leave out for home.all depends on weather.may B we will drive down if weather too bad to fly down.weather dont look good as of now.calling for rain+thunder storms.but we are still going one way or another..all so we will have a car to run in..may even take train ride Sat.there.or even canoe trip.there.sounds like fun weekend..any way got to fly 4 now Steve Shinabery dave wrote: > > John, You have hit the nail on the head with excess speed. > Seems that alot are afraid to explore the envelope and practice slow flight ? > > How aften does Kitfox pilots actually do stalls ? Mine is fully stalled nearly every landing. :) > > > >> AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed. >> >> >> > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132955#132955 > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:48 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Actual Build Time? From: "PMorel" EAA's AeroCrafter CD lists the Kitfox Model IV build time a modest 800 hours. My DAR built 2 Speedster Kitfoxes with one only 7 months and the second in 4 months. Needless to say, we didn't see much of him for 4 months. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132997#132997 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:10 PM PST US From: "Kevin Cozik" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Actual Build Time? About 1,000 hrs build time for me. I'll admit I had the luxury of having 2 other kitfox builders in my shop at the same time. Seems pretty simple if you stick to the plans supplied by Kitfox. You can make it as complex or as simple as you wish. Kevin C Series 6/7 Rotax 914 turbo Czech amphibs Lansing Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: "PMorel" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:16 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Actual Build Time? > > EAA's AeroCrafter CD lists the Kitfox Model IV build time a modest 800 > hours. My DAR built 2 Speedster Kitfoxes with one only 7 months and the > second in 4 months. Needless to say, we didn't see much of him for 4 > months. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132997#132997 > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:45 PM PST US From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: Kitfox-List: Gas Cap Gasket? Need to replace a gas cap gasket on one of my wing tanks, I went to the local auto parts store and they have a two types of material in a role one is cork with a rubber base and the other is rubber based but kinda like hard card board. The guy also said you could use an old inner tube! Does anyone have any advise? Ray _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft Office Live! ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:26 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Actual Build Time Mike, I built a 5 with a series 7 firewall forward. I put about 2500 hours into it. This is actual build time. It does NOT count head scratchin' time or investigating different approaches for some things, etc. I am kinda slow, but it's a hobby! Elapsed time was about 5 years, but I had to take nearly a year off - sometimes life gets in the way. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and have used some of the new skills learned on other projects. I am looking for another project now. A plane for my wife??? Hmmmm,,, would that excuse work? Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirtbos Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Actual Build Time Did a "build time" search with no luck. I would appreciate some input on the actual build time for the Series 7/Super Sport. Also, how practical is the folding wing feature? Is it as quick and easy as stated on the website? It would be nice not to have to pay hangar fees. Mike Allen Acton, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132794#132794 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:42 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: BMW 1100S From: "JSD" Rick, I'm not seeing a link there. I just ordered a couple of books from Contact magazine that are compilations of all their conversion articles in all past issues. Looks like some good reading. --Scott Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=133029#133029 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: BMW 1100S From: "JSD" Still trying to get that signature thing workin. -------- Scott Denniston K-7/ no power yet 65% or so complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=133030#133030 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:18 PM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gas Cap Gasket? Ray: Someone on the list told me couple of years ago that a replacement gasket for a particular model Mercedes auto fit perfectly, and it did. I can't remember which model it was, but perhaps you could use the Matronics search engine and find it, and if not, hopefully a list member can provide you with that information. If not, I'm pretty sure I saved the box my gaskets came in for future reference, but it would be some twenty miles away where my Fox is hangared, and not immediately available. Clem Nichols Model IV 1200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAY Gignac" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Gas Cap Gasket? > > > Need to replace a gas cap gasket on one of my wing tanks, I went to the > local auto parts store and they have a two types of material in a role one > is cork with a rubber base and the other is rubber based but kinda like > hard card board. The guy also said you could use an old inner tube! Does > anyone have any advise? > > Ray > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft Office Live! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.