Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:45 AM - New Kitfox Owner (Ken Potter)
2. 05:42 AM - Re: New Kitfox Owner (Dee Young)
3. 06:02 AM - Re: New Kitfox Owner (Ken Potter)
4. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: New Kitfox Owner (Dee Young)
5. 06:32 AM - Re: New Kitfox Owner (Guy Buchanan)
6. 08:02 AM - Re: New Kitfox Owner (dave)
7. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Opinions for a newbie? (Noel Loveys)
8. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tanks and TCP (Noel Loveys)
9. 02:18 PM - Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (Pete Christensen)
10. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tanks and TCP (Michel Verheughe)
11. 02:49 PM - Fossil Fuels (was: Fuel tanks and TCP) (Michael Gibbs)
12. 03:45 PM - Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (dave)
13. 04:03 PM - Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (Ron Liebmann)
14. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Exhaust parts 582 (Noel Loveys)
15. 05:49 PM - Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (Steve Shinabery)
16. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (Noel Loveys)
17. 06:05 PM - Re: Fossil Fuels (was: Fuel tanks and TCP) (Noel Loveys)
18. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (Noel Loveys)
19. 08:41 PM - Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question (paul wilson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | New Kitfox Owner |
Hi Folks;
I've recently purchased a 90 % complete kitfox II which is finished to the point
of painting (which I've started). The kit was built by one of my neighbours
with superb workmanship. It literally came with everything (including paint)
to finish to the point of test flying. I'll probably have numerous questions and
this is the first.
The plane came with a new Rotax 582 with c box. I note that the engine attaches
to its mounts with what I believe are 8mm bolts however the bolts which came
with the kit are not AN and are not drilled for lockwires. Can anyone tell me
what the normal practice for these bolts as I am not comfortable with lockwashers
and locktite in this critical application.
Is there there a metric equivalent to AN??
Regards
Ken Potter
Lanark, Ontario.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139710#139710
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New Kitfox Owner |
Ken my model II came with the AN bolts with lock nuts for the motor
mounts.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Potter<mailto:kjpotter@sympatico.ca>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Kitfox Owner
<kjpotter@sympatico.ca<mailto:kjpotter@sympatico.ca>>
Hi Folks;
I've recently purchased a 90 % complete kitfox II which is finished to
the point of painting (which I've started). The kit was built by one of
my neighbours with superb workmanship. It literally came with everything
(including paint) to finish to the point of test flying. I'll probably
have numerous questions and this is the first.
The plane came with a new Rotax 582 with c box. I note that the
engine attaches to its mounts with what I believe are 8mm bolts however
the bolts which came with the kit are not AN and are not drilled for
lockwires. Can anyone tell me what the normal practice for these bolts
as I am not comfortable with lockwashers and locktite in this critical
application.
Is there there a metric equivalent to AN??
Regards
Ken Potter
Lanark, Ontario.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139710#139710<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139710#139710>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New Kitfox Owner |
The bolts which attache the mounts to the rails are drilled AN with nuts and pins.
The bolts which go from the mount however into the blind holes on the engine
are the ones I am describing.
Cheers
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139719#139719
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New Kitfox Owner |
Sorry, don't have the 582
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Potter<mailto:kjpotter@sympatico.ca>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:01 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New Kitfox Owner
<kjpotter@sympatico.ca<mailto:kjpotter@sympatico.ca>>
The bolts which attache the mounts to the rails are drilled AN with
nuts and pins. The bolts which go from the mount however into the blind
holes on the engine are the ones I am describing.
Cheers
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139719#139719<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139719#139719>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New Kitfox Owner |
At 04:44 AM 10/13/2007, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me what the normal practice for these bolts as I am
>not comfortable with lockwashers and locktite in this critical application.
I'm guessing you're talking about the "side mount" versus the "bottom
mount" that uses the four big studs coming out of the bottom of the
case. I'm also guessing you're talking about the fairly short bolts
holding the four individual "T's" onto the case. These T's have lord
mounts that sit on the side rails of the engine mount, right?
I can't tell you what "normal practice" is but I run with lock
washers and Loctite, and have not had a problem. Note, however, I'm
doing that only because I DIDN'T THINK OF IT. <:-| Now that you
mention it, I'll pull the bolts and drill and safety wire them.
There are metric aircraft bolts, NA series, but a class 8.8 bolt has
equivalent strength and is probably what you've been provided. (It's
stamped 8.8 on the head.) A quick Google didn't reveal any obvious
sources for metric aircraft fasteners or drilled heads, but I did
find www.metricsunlimited.com which seemed to have nearly every
metric fastener known to man. Also, CPS (California Power Systems,
www.800-airwolf.com) sells drilled head M8's for prop bolts. They may
have a source, or may drill themselves.
Let us know if you find a source for NA series bolts or drilled metrics.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New Kitfox Owner |
Ken, I am Near London Ontario.
drop me a email dave (AT) cfisher.com
with your Phone number And i will call you up.
The early Kitfoxes used the rotax studs on bottom of crankcase to the engine plate.
Whereas the IVC used the side mount with lord mounts which I have in stock.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139743#139743
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Opinions for a newbie? |
Not a prob. Dave. I'm only going to do the engine this winter I expect
to order the mount next month. McBean wants a template of my firewall to
make the welding jig. I certainly don't have any problems with the adverse
yaw. That's one reason they have rudder pedals.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:59 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Opinions for a newbie?
>
>
>
> Noel,
>
> I don't think you can just change bell cranks to change to
> aileron differntial. I did talk to Mc Bean a few weeks back
> and he does offer a kit i believe to upgrade to aileron
> diferential on the pre IV models or at least some of them.
> Best to contact John to find out for sure.
>
>
>
> > Adverse Yaw???? My plane resembles the remark! Only if I
> don't use the rudder.
> > It's amazing though how you get used to it very fast. Given
> the option of the higher differential bell cranks I'd only
> install them after a complete tear down...Maybe!
>
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139602#139602
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tanks and TCP |
I think the real problems start when the concentration of Ethanol are above
10%. I also think the engine seals are not the main problem but dissolving
of the resins in the wing tanks.
Re: the use of ethanol in flight I think booze and flying shouldn't ever be
mixed. Additional problems with the possibility of carb icing, and vapour
lock etc. etc. are enough to try to avoid the stuff. On the other hand When
Rotax says the use of 100LL is not recommended they don't say it's ok to use
the stuff with TCP treatment. So I agree with you that the best thing to do
is to limit the use of 100LL to times where there are no other reasonable
options. BTW I also think it's leaving Eth/gas in the wing tanks that does
the damage so if you can only get gas at 10%+ Eth, then at the end of the
day just flush a little good clean gas through the tanks. If you're going
for a week or so flush at the end of the trip.
Certainly it is NOT the case where you show your tanks a bottle of Ethanol
and they will immediately start to dissolve from fright :-)
What really peeves me is the fact that the whole idea of adding Ethanol to
gas is smoke and mirrors. It doesn't do anything they say it does, if you
look at the whole picture. The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is
less tailpipe emissions. I note they don't say there are less overall
emissions, tailpipe and otherwise, for the same amount of power produced.
The reason they won't cross the carefully worded tailpipe statement is they
know ethanol is not efficient. Not financially efficient and certainly not
ecologically efficient. Those lobbyists, most of whom can't add 2+2 and
come up with 4 three times out of five are insulting me by expecting me to
be dumb enough to suck up their un-truths.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 8:39 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel tanks and TCP
>
>
>
> Noel, you are correct that Rotax does not recommend the use
> of AVGAS. I go through about 1000 to 1500 gals of gas a
> year in My Kitfox alone and use regular pump gas. I have no
> idea if it has ethanol or not. Likely it does as it is law
> here to have it .
> I have not noticed any problems yet using what i have been
> using. So ethanol gas to me is no big deal. I am not an
> advocate of ethanol gas and I think that it is likely I will
> use more gas for the same power setting with ethanol gas.
>
> All that being said I have used AVGAS occasionally if at a
> seaplane base or airport that has no auto gas but really
> prefer to get regular auto gas as it has worked well for me .
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139536#139536
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
Does anyone know if a 40'X8'X8' railroad container could be used as a hanger
for a folded wing Kitfox? Cheap storage if it would.
Pete
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tanks and TCP |
On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is less tailpipe
> emissions.
This is new to me, Noel. My understanding on the move toward ethanol is
entirely different (although I might be wrong). I think the main reason
is that ethanol is produced from bio-mass and not from fossil fuel.
Carbon dioxide was first on earth. Then vegetal life turned most of it
into oxygen by photosynthesis and kept the carbon to build its cells.
Finally, vegetal life would burn or putrefy and release again carbon
dioxide that, again would be taken by other living vegetal forms of
life. There was a balance.
But some of that primordial forms of vegetal life, probably due to
geo-physical reasons such as landslides, got buried down in the earth,
to be only retrieved in the past century in the form of crude oil. Once
you start burning that oil, thus creating carbon dioxide that should
have happen millions of years ago, you upset the natural balance and
create more CO2 than it has been produced since humans live on earth.
That increase is the reason of the so-called greenhouse effect and
global warming.
If you grow a tree then burn it, you keep nature in balance. If you
burn fossil fuel, you upset the balance ... I think.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fossil Fuels (was: Fuel tanks and TCP) |
Noel had sed:
>On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>>The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is less tailpipe emissions.
To which Michel sez:
>If you grow a tree then burn it, you keep nature in balance. If you
>burn fossil fuel, you upset the balance ... I think.
I think the point Noel is making is two-fold. Auto fuels containing
ethanol or other oxygenating agents produce less power. Since
"burning" is the act of combining the fuel with oxygen, these fuels
are, essentially, partially "burned" when you put them into the tank.
As a result, you burn more of it to get equivalent performance.
Second, ethanol is energy neutral. That is, it takes as much energy
to refine it as you get out of it, so it's more of a storage medium
than an energy source. Dead dinosaurs, on the other hand, produce an
order of magnitude more energy than extracting and refining the fuel
does.
There are other negative side-affects to burning our food supply in
cars and airplanes. Global prices for corn have sky-rocketed in the
last year or two causing rioting in areas where corn is a staple
food, like Mexico, because average folks can't afford to buy it any
more. The amount of corn required to make one tank of ethanol (full
strength, not at 10% concentration) would feed a person for a year.
There's got to be a better source of energy for our power-hungry world.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
you should need about 22 feet long or so
7'10" wide about
under 6 feet tall if on wheels.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139807#139807
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
Yes it would...;>) Ron N55KF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 4:17 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Does anyone know if a 40'X8'X8' railroad container could be used as a
> hanger for a folded wing Kitfox? Cheap storage if it would.
>
> Pete
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust parts 582 |
Will this mod fit my plane? Model II for the sake of argument.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 7:29 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Exhaust parts 582
>
>
>
> Ok , I not sure if this topic getting a bit stretched or not
> , maybe a new topic if anyone thinks fit.
>
> I finally got time to day to make a new elbow from scratch.
> It turned out about the same as the Skystar one except it a
> bit longer at bottom rather than at the top as I modified the
> last one and gained the HP.
>
> I had to cut the tapered pipe where it joins onto the Rotax
> muffler and rotated it . length should be the same (+/- 1/8" ).
>
> Wind today was 10 G 15 knots so it was hard to get a good
> handle on take off performance if better or not. I think i
> got about 50 to 70 more RPM static, really not a big deal.
> Got about 10 take offs and landings in at a few grass strips
> and worked ok.
>
> Could not find a camera last 2 days around here - 3 kids plus
> a wife -- who knows where it is now. Will try to get some
> pics when I find it.
>
> Overall I give this mod a thumbs up for performance gain.
>
> Has anyone used a tuned pipe other than the Rotax muffler on
> their 582 Kitfox and if so what results did you see. ?
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139643#139643
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
I do not see why not it would not work,,but would be ugly..but different
and cheap.would not blow away easy.no up keep.last for ever.launch a
Kitfox from a train car? humm?why not?may B even have a flat bed train
car.and use it to take off+land on it too.would be a cheap airport.
good luck on your project.hope that it works out for you. Steve
S,KF2,N554KF
Pete Christensen wrote:
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Does anyone know if a 40'X8'X8' railroad container could be used as a
> hanger for a folded wing Kitfox? Cheap storage if it would.
>
> Pete
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
My garage door is 10' high and I have to be careful when putting my plane,
on floats and a low trailer in the garage.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question
>
>
>
> you should need about 22 feet long or so
> 7'10" wide about
> under 6 feet tall if on wheels.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139807#139807
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Fossil Fuels (was: Fuel tanks and TCP) |
So well said!
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Michael Gibbs
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:16 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fossil Fuels (was: Fuel tanks and TCP)
>
>
> <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Noel had sed:
>
> >On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> >>The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is less
> tailpipe emissions.
>
> To which Michel sez:
>
> >If you grow a tree then burn it, you keep nature in balance. If you
> >burn fossil fuel, you upset the balance ... I think.
>
> I think the point Noel is making is two-fold. Auto fuels containing
> ethanol or other oxygenating agents produce less power. Since
> "burning" is the act of combining the fuel with oxygen, these fuels
> are, essentially, partially "burned" when you put them into the tank.
> As a result, you burn more of it to get equivalent performance.
>
> Second, ethanol is energy neutral. That is, it takes as much energy
> to refine it as you get out of it, so it's more of a storage medium
> than an energy source. Dead dinosaurs, on the other hand, produce an
> order of magnitude more energy than extracting and refining the fuel
> does.
>
> There are other negative side-affects to burning our food supply in
> cars and airplanes. Global prices for corn have sky-rocketed in the
> last year or two causing rioting in areas where corn is a staple
> food, like Mexico, because average folks can't afford to buy it any
> more. The amount of corn required to make one tank of ethanol (full
> strength, not at 10% concentration) would feed a person for a year.
>
> There's got to be a better source of energy for our
> power-hungry world.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
My garage door is 10' high and I have to be careful when putting my plane,
on floats and a low trailer in the garage.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question
>
>
>
> you should need about 22 feet long or so
> 7'10" wide about
> under 6 feet tall if on wheels.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139807#139807
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox/Railroad Container Question |
Mine is 92" wide and 89" high inside measure. I used it to store my
plane during the move and now I use it for cheap storage. Its the
cheapest secure storage you will ever find. One drawback is no temp
control. The metal gets much hotter than ambient and much colder than
ambient. Thus one has to be selective as to what goes in the metal
box. As you might have noticed the Kitfox wont fit with the wings
attached even folded or with the horiz attached. Mine is a 40' and
has doors on both ends . Very handy.
Buy or build a box trailer that is over width. Cheapest would be to
make your own. Park it at the airport next to a friendly hanger
owner. The white metal wont have the temp excursions that the steel
cargo container has. Not as secure since anybody with a saw can open
it up on the sides. This solution definitely needs tiedowns because
it is so light. I see 5th wheel trailers parked at different airports
so I know it is possible. Make one that is 10' wide and 30+ feet long
that is not very road worthy. Then sneek it to the airport in the
dead of night to avoid the cops since you will not be highway legal.
Jack it up a so the cheep tires and axles do not carry much weight.
Leave the tires on it so it still looks like a trailer. Put a big
fuel tank in the trailer for ease of fueling or de-fueling.
Have fun,
Paul
At 03:17 PM 10/13/2007, you wrote:
><apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Does anyone know if a 40'X8'X8' railroad container could be used as
>a hanger for a folded wing Kitfox? Cheap storage if it would.
>
>Pete
>
>
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