---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/27/07: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Michel Verheughe) 2. 03:18 AM - Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (dave) 3. 03:26 AM - Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (dave) 4. 05:22 AM - Re: Spam: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (John W. Hart) 5. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Low flying (Michel Verheughe) 6. 07:41 AM - To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Pete Christensen) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Rick) 8. 08:20 AM - Doors open (Tom Jones) 9. 08:46 AM - Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (john taylor) 10. 10:10 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Lynn Matteson) 11. 10:36 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Michel Verheughe) 12. 10:41 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Tom Jones) 13. 10:44 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Michael Gibbs) 14. 10:44 AM - Re: Doors open (Michel Verheughe) 15. 11:23 AM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Lowell Fitt) 16. 12:49 PM - Turtledeck kit/complete (Dave G.) 17. 12:51 PM - Re: Doors open (dave) 18. 03:55 PM - Re: Low flying (dave) 19. 05:00 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (John W. Hart) 20. 06:30 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Rexinator) 21. 06:47 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Dacha) 22. 06:50 PM - Re: Avid Builder (Noel Loveys) 23. 06:59 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Michael Gibbs) 24. 07:00 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 25. 07:07 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (mic thiessen) 26. 07:07 PM - Re: Doors open (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 27. 07:14 PM - Copperstate Fly-in (Michael Gibbs) 28. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Noel Loveys) 29. 07:21 PM - Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Noel Loveys) 30. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Noel Loveys) 31. 07:51 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Noel Loveys) 32. 07:51 PM - Re: Doors open (Noel Loveys) 33. 07:51 PM - Re: Doors open (Noel Loveys) 34. 07:57 PM - Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. (Noel Loveys) 35. 08:11 PM - Re: Doors open (Tom Jones) 36. 09:22 PM - Re: Re: Doors open (Noel Loveys) 37. 09:59 PM - Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (darinh) 38. 10:27 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Michael Gibbs) 39. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV (Rick) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:23 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Thank you for quoting the law on your side of the big pond, John and Noel. Indeed, there is a difference as in my country, 500 ft AGL is the strict minimum anywhere, even over high sea. In fact, low passes over the runway is technically forbidden and if, e.g. we want to do that in formation at our annual air-show, we need prior permission from our aviation authorities. Dave, I support your request to see more people publishing Kitfox videos on YouTube. We can learn a lot from it. However, I'd like to ask everyone to be careful. I don't know if you have the same happening in your countries but over here, we have a big problem with youngsters publishing anonymous videos of cars or motorbikes driving at extreme speed on highways. The police is seriously concerned. We shouldn't take risks only to publish a sensational video. If you look here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/ Then enter Kitfox and select all fatal accidents, you'll see that they all happened after a stall or spin at very low altitude. While we enjoy flying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we must remember that speed and altitude are the keys to safety. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:35 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV From: "dave" Michel, You have to realize that most of those videes are shot from right over my strips. So when taking off or landing the 500 agl does not apply. Plus another thing is since i take off or land pretty well anywhere then every field,sand bar, beach ,lake or river becomes a take off an landing point . Now what is really neat is what i think is the real attribute is showing others not for the sake of showing off but for education it brings. I know a picture is worth a thousand words. I am a 48 yr old youngster :) > Dave, I support your request to see more people publishing Kitfox > videos on YouTube. We can learn a lot from it. However, I'd like to ask > everyone to be careful. I don't know if you have the same happening in > your countries but over here, we have a big problem with youngsters > publishing anonymous videos of cars or motorbikes driving at extreme > speed on highways. The police is seriously concerned. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142122#142122 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV From: "dave" Michel, I get Kitfox alerts as well to my inbox and I have seen some other list members accidents as well in the last few months. As far as stall/spins accidents at low altitude it would make you ask your self, when was the last time that you did some training ? Are at least a good few hours of slow flight at altitude with your Kitfox doing turns , standard rate 15 degree , 30 , 45 and 60 degree banked turns at 45 to 55 mph ? Then slow it down to a few mph over stall, see how your stick feels, notice any warning signs like buffeting and less control force . Just remember you can get inverted in a hurry in a slow flight turn and possibly get into a spin if you not watching. Being able to detect when close to stall is a must have for any pilot. > Then enter Kitfox and select all fatal accidents, you'll see that they > all happened after a stall or spin at very low altitude. While we enjoy > flying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we must remember that speed > and altitude are the keys to safety. > -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142124#142124 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:28 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Spam: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Dave, I agree! When conducting a flight review in, for example, a Cessna, I find that many folks almost panic when the stall warning horn sounds, even for a short time. I have flown very few Cessnas that cannot be flown in slow flight/minimum controllable airspeed with the stall warning horn blaring continuously. Of course, I do this above 3000 feet AGL. It sure helps to train pilots in making the shortest landing possible to understand the stall warning is a warning, not immediate stall. The same thing can be learned in a Kitfox, but using different cues that the aircraft is NEAR an angle of attack that could produce a stall. John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 5:26 AM Subject: Spam: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Michel, I get Kitfox alerts as well to my inbox and I have seen some other list members accidents as well in the last few months. As far as stall/spins accidents at low altitude it would make you ask your self, when was the last time that you did some training ? Are at least a good few hours of slow flight at altitude with your Kitfox doing turns , standard rate 15 degree , 30 , 45 and 60 degree banked turns at 45 to 55 mph ? Then slow it down to a few mph over stall, see how your stick feels, notice any warning signs like buffeting and less control force . Just remember you can get inverted in a hurry in a slow flight turn and possibly get into a spin if you not watching. Being able to detect when close to stall is a must have for any pilot. > Then enter Kitfox and select all fatal accidents, you'll see that they > all happened after a stall or spin at very low altitude. While we enjoy > flying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we must remember that speed > and altitude are the keys to safety. > -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142124#142124 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:07 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying On Oct 27, 2007, at 12:25 PM, dave wrote: > when was the last time that you did some training ? Last time was last Saturday, Dave, and I would do it again this week-end if the weather permitted it. I do simple but rather long traffic patterns where I use everything I know of to make me feel confident with the plane. The reason of the "simple traffic pattern" is that I fly under radar control with transponder on since it is within a CTR. I fly very slow, to the edge of stall (in fact, it was Torgeir on this list who told me first to do that) I stall, hear the turtledeck pop and mush down. I do it straight and in a turn but not as much as 60 degrees bank. I do a lot of side slips and end up with a dead stick landing on the mark. I do stalls on downwind at 1,000 AGL. One thing I also like to practice is to rock the wings while keeping the nose of the plane on one point on the horizon. It's good for co-ordinating pedals and stick. In fact, it's all the fun of flying a Kitfox: feel the plane and be "with it." Flying from A to B is boring unless the scenery is very interesting. I also know that you do your flying from your own landing strip, Dave. I have no objection to anything you say and if I gave the impression that I had, I am very sorry as it was not intentional. But it doesn't change the fact that most fatal accidents occur at low speed and low altitude. Even the Norwegian who built my Kitfox got killed in his first model 2, a few weeks after my plane's first flight, while he was doing a sharp turn a few feet over the end of the runway. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:03 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW MOSTLY 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? Pete ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:10 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I would recommend looking at the incident and accident rate in tail verses tri gear aircraft. I decided on the tri gear and glad I did. The old timers will swear by the tail draggers but unless you really need the off field prop clearance why make it more difficult than it needs to be. IMHO tri gear are safer and easier to get up and down. Now I will get behind some cover and duck the incoming fire fight. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. --> I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW MOSTLY 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? Pete ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:33 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Doors open From: "Tom Jones" Do you need a limit strap of some sort on the kitfox doors when flying with them open? My doors are close to the wing bottom when open and the door struts seem kind of light weight to hold much force. I'm near the end of phase one testing and would like to test with my door open now. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142159#142159 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:26 AM PST US From: john taylor Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV well said, michel V in norway!!! tnx for reminding us all. very important p oint u make. take care. john bowman covering avid + from airdale. prairiev ille, la.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Michel Verheughe =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, October 27, 2 007 2:58:16 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV >=0A=0AThank you for quoting the law on your side of the big pond, John and =0ANoel. Indeed, there is a difference as in my country, 500 ft AGL is the =0Astrict minimum anywhere, even over high sea. In fact, low passes over =0Athe runway is technically forbidden and if, e.g. we want to do that in =0Aformation at our annual air-show, we need prior permission from our =0Aa viation authorities.=0A=0ADave, I support your request to see more people p ublishing Kitfox =0Avideos on YouTube. We can learn a lot from it. However, I'd like to ask =0Aeveryone to be careful. I don't know if you have the sa me happening in =0Ayour countries but over here, we have a big problem with youngsters =0Apublishing anonymous videos of cars or motorbikes driving at extreme =0Aspeed on highways. The police is seriously concerned.=0A=0AWe s houldn't take risks only to publish a sensational video. If you =0Alook her e: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/=0AThen enter Kitfox and select all fatal accid ents, you'll see that they =0Aall happened after a stall or spin at very lo w altitude. While we enjoy =0Aflying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we m ust remember that speed =0Aand altitude are the keys to safety.=0A=0ACheers ====================0A=0A____________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:56 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I'm prejudiced toward the taildragger. These were the planes that I grew up watching, and hoping to fly someday. They were the planes that I saw while watching the war (WWII) from a great distance. It just seems like the natural way for an airplane to sit on the ground. I got my early training in C172's, a C180, and a Sport Star, but I really learned how to fly, and solo, in my Kitfox. My very first solo was at age 69 in my taildragger Kitfox. They are not to be feared or to cause intimidation. And then there is that "snob appeal" that comes when you master the t'dragger. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/420+ hrs On Oct 27, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Pete Christensen wrote: > > > I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW > MOSTLY 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm > afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I > could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a > taildragger. Any advice for the timid? > > Pete > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:30 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. > From: Pete Christensen [apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net] > I could get a tri-gear Kitfox > but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? You know that you have just open a can of worms, haven't you Pete? :-) Fortunately Kitfox offers both trigear and taildragger; go for what you heart decides and you won't regret it. I had never been flying before and for four years ago I bought a taildragger model 3. I love it and couldn't think to change it for anything else. Of course it takes a bit more to master the taildragger technique and ground loops happen faster but, once you have learnt to know your plane, you'll know its limits and after that, live happily together for ever. Just like in a fairy tale. :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:55 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. From: "Tom Jones" > I'm afraid I'll have > trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear Kitfox > but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? Pete, If you build one, the new kits are convertible nose to tail. If you find an older kit, if it is not covered yet, it is not too much work to make it convertible too. You can fly it nose wheel for a while and always have the option to try the tail wheel if you get the urge. There are some people that have converted their Kitfox to nose wheel after the fact too, so that is always an option. If you want insurance coverage, it is easier to find and pay for with the nose wheel. I was a 300 hour Cherokee pilot when I finished building my Classic 4. I like the tail dragger more each time I fly it. Maybe its just cause its a kitfox. I'm sure the Trigear are fun too. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142175#142175 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:13 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Pete sez: >...I'm afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. >I could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a >taildragger. Any advice for the timid? My advice is, before you make a decision, go get 5 hours of instruction in a tail dragger and see how you feel. If you feel comfortable, make it a tail dragger. If you don't, give it a nose wheel. Either way you'll have an awesome airplane that you'll fall in love with. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:29 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Doors open > From: Tom Jones [nahsikhs@elltel.net] > Do you need a limit strap of some sort on the kitfox doors when flying > with them open? It's difficult to say, Tom, because the Kitfox is a homebuilt aircraft and there are not two built the same. Basically, it depends on how the door takes the wind and I believe a slight difference in their shape may cause a totally different behaviour. Maybe you should wait to try yours with a passenger and see how it goes. With my model 3, opening and closing the doors in flight is extremely simple and doesn't require any force at all. Furthermore, even if the opened door is close to the wing, I have not noticed any effect on the flight characteristics when open. I have landed with open doors and the plane behaved as if they were closed. But that's my plane. Test carefully how yours work. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:58 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Pete, I would go with Mike's advice. Try it with an instructor and see how you do. If you do get a tailwheel airplane, you would need to be checked out in it anyway. I learned in a tailwheel airplane then after a couple of years gave up flying for twenty. My Model IV first flew in 1998 with a hired test pilot. I found that the tail wheel training came back very quickly and like you, I like the looks. I destroyed my airplane a couple of months ago in a hard precautionary landing, but have never ground looped. I guess by saying that I am forced to get another airplane because of the old saying - something about having done it or will do it. I'd hate pass into the next world being the only exception to the rule. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Christensen" Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. > > > I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW MOSTLY > 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm afraid I'll have > trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear > Kitfox but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the > timid? > > Pete > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:21 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtledeck kit/complete I have a modified turtledeck on my model IV. It has been cut along what would be the outside of the plexi and a large single window of Plexi or lexan has been substituted. I don't like the weight of this mod and would like to rebuild or replace the turtledeck. If anyone has one sitting around in good shape that they'd like to sell, please email directly. Thanks. Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:51 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Doors open From: "dave" Tom, I don't have door strut or cables on my IV . I fly with they open lots. No issues -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142191#142191 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:22 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying From: "dave" Michel, > I stall, hear the turtledeck > pop and mush down. Is that the noise that you hear last year ? The thud? Funny , with VG;s on now i have a less announced stall warning -- less buffet, food for thought if you plan on using Vgs., -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142209#142209 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:27 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Pete, I suggest that you find a competent tailwheel instructor, and GO FOR IT! The Kitfox is a gentle aircraft on rollout, if you make sure the aircraft is stalled as it touches the ground, then make sure you keep the stick all the way back until the speed is well below stall speed. Exception is wheel landings. A good tailwheel instructor will teach you how to do them after you master the normal, or full stall landing. John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW MOSTLY 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? Pete ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:52 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I just got back from the Copperstate Fly-In. I met Murle Williams for the fabric workshop. He and I had time to chat about Kifoxes and he had some useful advice. It was about difficult handling tail draggers which he believes can be tracked down to alignment problems. He mentioned this to me since I will need to check my alignment before my project moves under it's own power. My thoughts are a tailwheel does require more attention than a nose wheel airplane while the wheels are on the ground. A properly set up tailwheel airplane can be more fun if you enjoy the extra challenge of using your feet more and concentrating more. I'd say it's more about the personal vision of what flying is to you. There's something to love about any airplane if you ask me. I've not been current for over 16 years, even longer for a TD but one day I intend to solo my own model 2. -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs Michael Gibbs wrote: > > Pete sez: > >> ...I'm afraid I'll have trouble getting used to a taildragger again. >> I could get a tri-gear Kitfox but I just like the looks of a >> taildragger. Any advice for the timid? > > > My advice is, before you make a decision, go get 5 hours of > instruction in a tail dragger and see how you feel. If you feel > comfortable, make it a tail dragger. If you don't, give it a nose > wheel. Either way you'll have an awesome airplane that you'll fall in > love with. > > Mike G. > N728KF > Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:03 PM PST US From: "Dacha" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Tailwheel, I know from my exp. that flying a tail dragger does make one a better pilot. Not taking things for granted, like approach speeds and such. I fly off of a 1200 ft strip with a Kitfox 5 Sub powered, and no problem, but the numbers have to be right or you are using some brakes. My 5 is really a pussy cat on the ground. One just needs to pay attention and you do fly a taildragger all the way into the hanger. No you don't relax on the ground but why should you. If it is easy maybe it isn't worthwhile. Leroy Staley Kitfox 5 Subaru EA81 Love grass strips and taildraggers. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Avid Builder Harry: As you say the kitfox and the avid are virtually the same aircraft... Yes they are a few differences but they were both designed by the same guy. There is an Avid group on yahoo groups and they are pretty active... I'm a kitfox owner and I'm reasonably active on that group too. Actually several of the guys on this list are also on the Avid list. You will find that topics do not tend to echo through the two groups. This is because all the guys are pilots or builders sand it is whatever is concerning them at the minute that you will see posted. Every conceivable engine / prop set up is represented on both groups but it is good sometimes to get opinions from both groups. This list tends to support Mr. John Mc Bean, Kitfox LLC., because he provides the support for all the different parts of the kitfox. The Avid list tends to support Steve Winder of Airdale, because he provides the special Avid parts when needed. Both gentlemen have similar backgrounds. I am pleased to say I think both gentlemen are good guys. Now that that is said....Welcome aboard! Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Harry Cieslar > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:25 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Avid Builder > > > > > Kitfox Group: I am a Avid Builder learning a lot from the > kitfox group > discussions. Are avid builders welcome as we really are much the same > aircraft but do not have the same great support system as the > kitfox people. > Harry Cieslar, Ontario, Canada , Avid Magnum Project > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:33 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Leroy sez: >...If it is easy maybe it isn't worthwhile. Leroy, are you saying that my big, squishy recliner is not worthwhile? It certainly is easy to get comfortable in. :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:02 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. tail draggers do worried me but maybe that is good. I taught myself to fly a quick silver then got 2 hrs in a 150 before I started flying a kolb, because I wanted some experiences with ailerons ,then I logged almost 500 hrs before I took 3 moor hrs in a champ just to get ready for my sport pilot check ride and to get ready to fly my model 2. I now have over 70 hrs in her and the only hard landing I have ever had was in my first Kolb when I bent a landing gear. many tri gear pilots get into trouble ,what do they blame it on? just fly and have fun Malcolm ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:05 PM PST US From: "mic thiessen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Pete Sounds like my story...trained in a 150...no flying for 20 years and no tail wheel experience....loved the look of the tail wheel and went for it....I have a kitfoxIV...took 3 hours of tail wheel training in a taylorcraft and have not looked back...I love it mic C-FOXX Kitfox IV Subaru EA81 >From: "Pete Christensen" >To: >Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:40:42 -0600 > > > >I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I FLEW MOSTLY >150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm afraid I'll have >trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a tri-gear Kitfox >but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? > >Pete > > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Check out freemessengeremoticons.ca ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:43 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Doors open are you flying a 4 with a 503? how much douse the plane weigh? my mod 2 is 538 lb. my only open door flight was when the passenger door opening on take off. it got real windy in there a couple of times.malcolm ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:30 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Copperstate Fly-in Hi all, The 2007 Copperstate Fly-in comes to a close tomorrow. Last year it got pretty windy and dusty several times but this year it was beautiful, if a bit warm (low 90s F/30s C). Kitfox, LLC had two airplanes and a tent, along with some local 'foxes that arrived during the show. I just happen to be sitting there when a new builder signed on the dotted line for his kit. It was difficult to judge the turnout but Murle Williams said his Poly-Fiber covering seminars were well attended. Attached are some photos from the event. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Still leaves me as the oldest kid I know! Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:48 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV > > > > Michel, > > You have to realize that most of those videes are shot from > right over my strips. So when taking off or landing the > 500 agl does not apply. Plus another thing is since i take > off or land pretty well anywhere then every field,sand bar, > beach ,lake or river becomes a take off an landing point . > > Now what is really neat is what i think is the real attribute > is showing others not for the sake of showing off but for > education it brings. I know a picture is worth a thousand words. > > I am a 48 yr old youngster :) > > > > Dave, I support your request to see more people publishing Kitfox > > videos on YouTube. We can learn a lot from it. However, I'd > like to ask > > everyone to be careful. I don't know if you have the same > happening in > > your countries but over here, we have a big problem with youngsters > > publishing anonymous videos of cars or motorbikes driving > at extreme > > speed on highways. The police is seriously concerned. > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142122#142122 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV One of my greatest joys is to fly in the bay, over the salt water, at about ten feet. You can easily see the gusts coming toward you so you are ready before they get to you. I tend to stay at least a half a mile away from any longliners (Inshore fishing boats ) or other boats. I have a Loran C station about two miles down the road from the house. I pay additional attention about giving that tower at least a mile of clearance more if possible. I also endorse Dave's request for more videos.... One of these days I'll get one of those movie cameras.... I only spent close to thirty years chasing the ultimate still frame. :-) Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michel Verheughe > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 5:28 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV > > > > Thank you for quoting the law on your side of the big pond, John and > Noel. Indeed, there is a difference as in my country, 500 ft > AGL is the > strict minimum anywhere, even over high sea. In fact, low passes over > the runway is technically forbidden and if, e.g. we want to > do that in > formation at our annual air-show, we need prior permission from our > aviation authorities. > > Dave, I support your request to see more people publishing Kitfox > videos on YouTube. We can learn a lot from it. However, I'd > like to ask > everyone to be careful. I don't know if you have the same > happening in > your countries but over here, we have a big problem with youngsters > publishing anonymous videos of cars or motorbikes driving at extreme > speed on highways. The police is seriously concerned. > > We shouldn't take risks only to publish a sensational video. If you > look here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/ > Then enter Kitfox and select all fatal accidents, you'll see > that they > all happened after a stall or spin at very low altitude. > While we enjoy > flying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we must remember that speed > and altitude are the keys to safety. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Dave: Have you ever spun your 'Fox on the floats?.... How does it handle the stalls. I used to love spins in the C172 but with the pendulum effect of the Aerocets three feet below the floor I didn't think it was a good idea on the 'Fox. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:56 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Low flying WAS: Kitfox vs. Van's RV > > > > Michel, > > I get Kitfox alerts as well to my inbox and I have seen some > other list members accidents as well in the last few months. > > As far as stall/spins accidents at low altitude it would make > you ask your self, when was the last time that you did some > training ? Are at least a good few hours of slow flight at > altitude with your Kitfox doing turns , standard rate 15 > degree , 30 , 45 and 60 degree banked turns at 45 to 55 mph ? > Then slow it down to a few mph over stall, see how your > stick feels, notice any warning signs like buffeting and less > control force . Just remember you can get inverted in a > hurry in a slow flight turn and possibly get into a spin if > you not watching. > > Being able to detect when close to stall is a must have > for any pilot. > > > > > > Then enter Kitfox and select all fatal accidents, you'll > see that they > > all happened after a stall or spin at very low altitude. > While we enjoy > > flying 'low and slow' with our Kitfoxes, we must remember > that speed > > and altitude are the keys to safety. > > > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142124#142124 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:11 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. Use what you are happiest with. If you are planning on following Dave onto sand bars in southern Ontario forget the idea of a nose wheel. If you are planning on mostly paved runways with the occasional foray into a grass strip, manicured or otherwise, the nose wheel may make you happier. Me ... I like floats. Although I was looking at the wheels the other day... Hmmmmm. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Pete Christensen > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:11 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. > > > > > I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I > FLEW MOSTLY > 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm > afraid I'll have > trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a > tri-gear Kitfox > but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any advice for the timid? > > Pete > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:11 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Doors open What Michel said on Aerocet 1100 straight floats. BTW the spray when landing ( close to glassy water) doesn't get into the cabin but sounds fantastic! Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michel Verheughe > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:14 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Doors open > > > > From: Tom Jones [nahsikhs@elltel.net] > > Do you need a limit strap of some sort on the kitfox doors > when flying > > with them open? > > It's difficult to say, Tom, because the Kitfox is a homebuilt > aircraft and there are not two built the same. Basically, it > depends on how the door takes the wind and I believe a slight > difference in their shape may cause a totally different > behaviour. Maybe you should wait to try yours with a > passenger and see how it goes. > With my model 3, opening and closing the doors in flight is > extremely simple and doesn't require any force at all. > Furthermore, even if the opened door is close to the wing, I > have not noticed any effect on the flight characteristics > when open. I have landed with open doors and the plane > behaved as if they were closed. But that's my plane. Test > carefully how yours work. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > > 

> 
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://w
> ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> 
>
________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:11 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Doors open My limit straps are close to twenty feet long. (wings) the only problem I ever had with the doors open was on the very first day when a little bit of an uncontrolled turn looked enough like a slip to the door to cause it to come down quickly. If you want to breeze and slip the 'fox take the doors off first... It only takes a minute or so. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:50 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Doors open > > > > Do you need a limit strap of some sort on the kitfox doors > when flying with them open? My doors are close to the wing > bottom when open and the door struts seem kind of light > weight to hold much force. I'm near the end of phase one > testing and would like to test with my door open now. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV, Phase one > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142159#142159 > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:00 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. I had an uncle who asked me one day why I liked to fly. When I told him there is no time that I'm more relaxed than when I'm in a plane he thought I was nuts. I think he had too many vivid memories of the tails of planes sticking out of houses in France sixty odd years ago. Thankfully I don't have those memories. On long commercial flights I tend to sleep the whole way. I'm glad when the flight attendant wake me for the landing... I wouldn't want to miss that. In my 'Fox I'm relaxed and at the same time vibrant and aware of my surroundings... The 'Fox beats the tar out of the C172 I trained on. Lowell I think you are in the same boat. You just like to be in the air. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lowell Fitt > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:53 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the > question. > > > > > Pete, > > I would go with Mike's advice. Try it with an instructor and > see how you > do. If you do get a tailwheel airplane, you would need to be > checked out in > it anyway. I learned in a tailwheel airplane then after a > couple of years > gave up flying for twenty. My Model IV first flew in 1998 > with a hired test > pilot. I found that the tail wheel training came back very > quickly and like > you, I like the looks. I destroyed my airplane a couple of > months ago in a > hard precautionary landing, but have never ground looped. I > guess by saying > that I am forced to get another airplane because of the old saying - > something about having done it or will do it. I'd hate pass > into the next > world being the only exception to the rule. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Christensen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:40 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: To Drag or not to Drag. That is the question. > > > > > > > > I'm just getting back into flying after almost 30 years. I > FLEW MOSTLY > > 150'S but I had 10 hours in an Aeronca 30 years ago. I'm > afraid I'll have > > trouble getting used to a taildragger again. I could get a > tri-gear > > Kitfox but I just like the looks of a taildragger. Any > advice for the > > timid? > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:37 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Doors open From: "Tom Jones" > are you flying a 4 with a 503? how much douse the plane weigh? my mod 2 is 538 lb. my only open door flight was when the passenger door opening on take off. Malcolm, yes a 503 in a classic 4. See pictures attached. It weighs 546 and I weigh 160. > If you want to breeze and slip the 'fox take the doors off first... It only takes a minute or so. Noel, I will probably take the doors off in the summer. When the doors are on I would like to open mine to take pictures. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142254#142254 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine1_181.jpg ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Doors open I've done both, opened the doors on occasion and taken them off at other times (10 - 15 min). My flight instructor wouldn't let me fly the C172 without the doors even though it was certified to do so. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:41 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Doors open > > > > > > are you flying a 4 with a 503? how much douse the plane > weigh? my mod 2 is 538 lb. my only open door flight was > when the passenger door opening on take off. > > > Malcolm, yes a 503 in a classic 4. See pictures attached. > It weighs 546 and I weigh 160. > > > > If you want to breeze and slip the 'fox take the doors off > first... It only takes a minute or so. > > > Noel, I will probably take the doors off in the summer. When > the doors are on I would like to open mine to take pictures. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV, Phase one > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142254#142254 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine1_181.jpg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:44 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV From: "darinh" Mike, Have you ever flown a C150 (this is a 1964 150 not a newer 152 Acrobat)? I fly one regularly and although it is capable of a roll, it just is not made for them and doesn't execute them very well at all...this is why I think he was crazy. The way he would roll the aiplane was to first point the nose toward the ground to get the airplane right up to redline then pull up fairly aggressively and do the roll. When the roll was completed, he would exit in a pretty steep nose down attitude and would have lost a couple hundred feet in the process. The POH on the C150 says nothing about acro except that loaded under utiliy class, it can do spins. You may think rolls is a 150 are fine but I think its a bit loco. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (under Construction) 914 Turbo Ogden, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142264#142264 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:34 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Darin sez: >Have you ever flown a C150 (this is a 1964 150 not a newer 152 Acrobat)? Yes. I did my initial training in a C-150. Didn't fly a 152 until I was almost ready for my private pilot check ride. >I fly one regularly and although it is capable of a roll, it just is >not made for them and doesn't execute them very well at all...this >is why I think he was crazy. I was just asking why you thought so, not suggesting it was smart. Short-winged Kitfoxes are supposed to be able to roll at 120 degrees per second. I never rolled my Model IV myself but it seemed like that number was in the ball park. I think the Kitfox would do a much better job than your description of the 150's version. :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:17 PM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV Good point Darin. As it was pointed out to me once by a very experienced pilot, yes you can do aerobatics in a Kitfox. However, the margin for error is very small. Do it exactly right every time and you're a great pilot. Get it wrong and it can be very very wrong and usually unrecoverable for a variety of what should be oblivious reason. I think some years ago another wise person on the list suggested it is best to get into an aircraft designed to do what you intend to do in it. Like Noel said, the tri gear is not going to like the sand bars. And so the debate of how good a person thinks he or she is compared to what the aircraft was designed for goes on. I would rather not gamble with that side of luck. I do however hold sacred anyone's right to make that decision for their self. I to have had much fun in my life while doing stupid things. Seems the older I get the more stupid things I realize I have done. Not suggesting anyone here is stupid. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.