---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/04/07: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:17 AM - List Fund Raiser (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:35 AM - Re: Moderator Reminder (A Smith) 2. 01:40 AM - Re: Moderator Reminder (Michel Verheughe) 3. 04:22 AM - AW: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Werner Keiper) 4. 05:06 AM - Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Jose M. Toro) 5. 06:47 AM - 7 vs 4 and 912 vs 914 (kitfoxjunky) 6. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Noel Loveys) 7. 07:21 AM - Re: Moderator Reminder (akflyer) 8. 07:37 AM - Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (Guy Buchanan) 9. 07:46 AM - Re: Moderator Reminder (RRTRACK@aol.com) 10. 07:49 AM - Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Noel Loveys) 11. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Noel Loveys) 12. 07:52 AM - Re: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? (Zimmermans) 13. 07:53 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Moderator Reminder (Guy Buchanan) 14. 08:22 AM - Re: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? (Zimmermans) 15. 08:38 AM - Moderator Reminder (john oakley) 16. 08:49 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Moderator Reminder (Noel Loveys) 17. 09:35 AM - Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (Jim Corner) 18. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Moderator Reminder (Dave G.) 19. 10:17 AM - Re: Moderator Reminder (eskflyer) 20. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Moderator Reminder (Michael Gibbs) 21. 12:17 PM - Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace (Jimmie Blackwell) 22. 12:54 PM - Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (akflyer) 23. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: Moderator Reminder (84KF) 24. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (john oakley) 25. 02:55 PM - Broken EGT probe (wingnut) 26. 04:08 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (RAY Gignac) 27. 04:39 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (wingnut) 28. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Broken EGT probe (Sbennett3@aol.com) 29. 04:59 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (Jim Corner) 30. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: Broken EGT probe (RAY Gignac) 31. 05:05 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (Vic Baker) 32. 05:17 PM - Re: Electronic Rudder Trim (akflyer) 33. 05:27 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (Rexster) 34. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: Trailering Kitfox WAS: King Fox rims (Marco Menezes) 35. 05:51 PM - New Rotax 912ul for sale thousands below list (jason Parker) 36. 05:59 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 37. 06:18 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (wingnut) 38. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: Broken EGT probe (Lowell Fitt) 39. 08:17 PM - Re: Broken EGT probe (john oakley) 40. 08:59 PM - Aircraft Bill of Sale (Paul Morel) 41. 09:58 PM - Re: Re: Broken EGT probe (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:17 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: List Fund Raiser Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. I've got a bunch of really nice incentive gifts this year. There's really something for everyone! Please make a Contribution today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:06 AM PST US From: "A Smith" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Moderator Reminder This is just a casual response to your item #1. I think that those kind of responses are needed in a group. That does a lot for the bonding and support for each other, and that is what the group is supposed to be. Building and technical support is not everything. There are times when a shoulder is nice to lean on. That is personal and friendship, not just tech. Once again, total tech will scare the new guys off. They need to have a place as do the technical guys. True, a lot of clutter is bad. I think that if it mostly Kitfox that is ok. Albert Smith 5 TD NSI Cap and 140Turbo MudLake, Idaho ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:04 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Moderator Reminder On Nov 4, 2007, at 8:28 AM, A Smith wrote: > This is just a casual response to your item #1. I think that those > kind of responses are needed in a group. That does a lot for the > bonding and support for each other, and that is what the group is > supposed to be. I support your motion, Albert. I think it should be allowed provided that the rest of the 'netiquette' is followed: Delete what is not informative in your reply; change the title if the subject has changed and add your profile at the end, together with 'do not archive.' Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:49 AM PST US From: "Werner Keiper" Subject: AW: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace Hi Jimmie, you may also use the Stits or Maule fabric tester. This way the wing struts of the Piper PA18 are tested for corrosion. There is also an official instruction how to do this. But bad news is that you need to remove the fiberglass fairings. :-( Werner -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Jimmie Blackwell Gesendet: Sonntag, 4. November 2007 01:30 An: kitfox-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace --> Lowell Thank you. That is great information. I certainly agree that where else may be rusted does indeed have me concerned. As much as I dread it I am planning on taking off the fiberglass fairings and having a look at the whole strut unless someone knows a way to check it without taking off the fairings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall anyone have this kind of issue with the struts. Will keep all posted on what I find. I do not want to even think about a strut failure. Thank again Lowell. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > Jimmie, > > I have been told that the cross brace is there to ease the construction > process - stabilize the whole lift strut assembly when fitting it to the > wing. With that thinking, it has no structural value at all. I think my > only concern would be where else there might be rust. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jimmie Blackwell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:00 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > > Yesterday, in a preflight I noted that the strut cross brace where the > struts attach to the bottom of the wing has a 1/4" hole that is apparently > the result of rust. > > Has anyone else had this happen? > > Would appreciate opinions as to whether this calls into question the > structural integrity of the entire wing strut. > > Jimmie > Model IV, 1200 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:48 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace Jimmie: I had a corrosion problem with the wing struts of my ex KF II. However, the problem was at the point where the jury struts attaches to the wing strut. I fixed the problem by ordering two new wing struts. Since the Kitfox factory do not have the jigs for the earlier model, I had to send the old, rusty struts in a wooden crate. The new struts were shipped back in the same crate. I'm very pleased and grateful of the support that I got from John and Debra McBean. If yours is a model IV, they most likely have the jig. On the old Kitfox, the fairings are wooden like in the Avids. I recently learned that Kitfox went back to that method. The rust in my struts was due to water trapped near the jury strut attachment due to the wooden fairing. The new struts were installed without fairings. I flew the plane yesterday, and I can't tell any difference in speed. Seems to me like 70 mph is adequate for a model II. I'm not the owner anymore, but am still in love!!! Hope this help, Jos Toro ex KFII/582 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jimmie Blackwell Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2007 8:30:10 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace Lowell Thank you. That is great information. I certainly agree that where else may be rusted does indeed have me concerned. As much as I dread it I am planning on taking off the fiberglass fairings and having a look at the whole strut unless someone knows a way to check it without taking off the fairings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall anyone have this kind of issue with the struts. Will keep all posted on what I find. I do not want to even think about a strut failure. Thank again Lowell. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > Jimmie, > > I have been told that the cross brace is there to ease the construction > process - stabilize the whole lift strut assembly when fitting it to the > wing. With that thinking, it has no structural value at all. I think my > only concern would be where else there might be rust. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jimmie Blackwell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:00 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > > Yesterday, in a preflight I noted that the strut cross brace where the > struts attach to the bottom of the wing has a 1/4" hole that is apparently > the result of rust. > > Has anyone else had this happen? > > Would appreciate opinions as to whether this calls into question the > structural integrity of the entire wing strut. > > Jimmie > Model IV, 1200 > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:22 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Kitfox-List: 7 vs 4 and 912 vs 914 Since you have owned both...how does your current mount feel in comparison to your previous. The weight is up, as is the HP. I am wondering what your thoughts are on flying qualities. One thing about my KF IV...you have to keep on the rudder. At less than 800 lbs empty, it is not a good gun platform, as they used to say in WW2. Long cross countries when you glance at the map then glance up again you are often not pointed in the same direction. That being said, it is so light it is a joy to fly..very quick on the controls. Does the heavier airplane make it more stable? Is it still light on the controls or is it slower to respond to control inputs? Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:08 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace AC 43 is the basis on which all certified maintenance is accomplished. You will find there are things in it that don't seem, on the surface, to be related to homebuilt aircraft. Never the less those things are worth while keeping in mind. If you have time, and a printer I would suggest you print out each chapter as you use it and put it in a loose leaf binder. That binder is a lot easier to carry to the plane when you want to refer to something. Invariably when you want to do something the last thing you will think of is searching AC43 for the right page(s) and then printing them. There is w real wealth of information there. It took almost a century to build and it's free... What more could you ask for??? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dcsfoto > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 9:51 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > > > download copy of AC 43-13 from faa.gov it shows many repairs. > > David kelm do not arcive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143638#143638 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder From: "akflyer" I am lost here (I am getting used to it). First off you don't want any unnecessary "chatter" or friendly banter and for everyone to keep it "technical".. then you say you want names locations etc, so you can make it more personable...Oh and by the way send more money... Cant have it both ways. If it is to be kept totaly technical what difference does my name make? If it is to be friendly, then why cant a person offer words of encouragement when one posts up "I got my first flight in today and I LOVE my new kitfox".. most would love to have a reply to that not just have the thread die with no follow up? Dont have to agree, just tossing in my 10.00 -------- Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143777#143777 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:30 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electronic Rudder Trim At 09:16 PM 11/3/2007, you wrote: >Variable potentiometers are used to input a >signal to the microcontoller and the servos follow the potentiometer >position. So then is the control a knob? Or can you do the "push to move" switch typical of trim systems? Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:24 AM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Moderator Reminder I'm with Michel as well. I think it's great to read some of the responses. But let's use the "do not archive" to keep them off the files. And changing the subject line is better for finding info in the archives for someone that is looking for specific information. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin " do not archive " ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:08 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace I used to use an awl. I would put it on the tube I wanted to test and push with about a hundred pounds of force or enough to lift the part. If the part is weak the awl will penetrate it if not it only leaves the tiniest marr of the finish which you can touch up with clear nail polish. If it penetrates the tube don't worry that part of the tubing would have to be replaced any way. The neat thing about this test is it can be done through the cloth skins. Any one starting form scratch should inhibit their frame before doing any thing else. This involves drilling a very small hole somewhere in the lower part of the frame, at a corner and injecting about a cup of double boiled linseed oil. Seal up the hole with a PK screw and rotate the frame over the next few days to allow the linseed oil to penetrate through out the interior of the frame. Finally remove the screw and allow the oil to drain out over a day or two. Then replace the screw and paint over it. A word of warning linseed oil in a rag can easily spontaneously combust when you do any wipe ups dispose of the oily rags in a good metal garbage can.... Don't ask how I know but a small rag will fill a good size hangar with white smoke to the point it is difficult to see. The more oil the more smoke. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:53 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > > > A common and simple method for inspecting for internal corrosion in > aircraft steel tubing and structures is to use a small pin punch and a > hammer. Yes, it will leave small punch marks on good strong metal but > if the material is corroded ...you will know. > How hard you strike the punch is a judgement call...but don't be shy. > > There are ultrasonic methods of NDT also available to determine > material thickness but it will cost $$. > > Here is a link to corrosion from FAA 43.13 1B, CHAPTER 6. CORROSION, > INSPECTION & PROTECTION > > http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryC ircular.nsf/0/99c827db9baac81b86256b4500596c4e/$FILE/Chapter%2006.pdf ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:08 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace BTW if you do the inhibiting procedure I mentioned in the last post if you have any small cracks in the welding the linseed oil will seep out at that point and show you exactly where the crack is. It takes years for the oil to dry in the presence of oxygen. Sealed inside your frame it should never dry so any time you see the wet form the oil you will know there is a crack in that place. Also there won't be enough seepage to have to worry about spontaneous combustion. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 11:48 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace > > > > take a look in the phone book and see if there is an > industrial xray company in your area. You should be able to > get the struts xray'd for a 4 hour call out. UT may be a bit > cheaper but I can see either one running you more than > 2-300.. a heck of alot cheaper than folding a wing or taking > the time to pull the fairings.. plus, you still wont know > what the ID looks like unless you have some form of NDE done. > Make sure you tell them it is experimental, and they dont > have to be an FAA licensed station to perform the inspections. > > -------- > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > 95% complete > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143656#143656 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:04 AM PST US From: "Zimmermans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? I found this on the internet. I am also interested in 0-200 firewall forward installation information and pictures. Jim Zimmerman Lake Elmo MN. Series 5 Building. ----- Original Message ----- From: flybymike To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:45 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? Does anyone have any Continental 0-200 firewall forward photos they can share? Thanks. Mike Custard Bend, OR. Kitfox SS 75% ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 10/31/2007 10:06 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:02 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder At 07:21 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >If it is to be friendly, then why cant a person offer words of >encouragement when one posts up "I got my first flight in today and >I LOVE my new kitfox".. most would love to have a reply to that not >just have the thread die with no follow up? OK. Let me clarify. I WANT you to send the personal messages. I WANT this to be a community. Just ask yourself, when you post the message, whether the entire list NEEDS to see it, or can it be sent directly to the interested party. In either case I want the message to be sent. Please don't get riled, it was just a casual reminder. Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:52 AM PST US From: "Zimmermans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? Jim Zimmerman Lake Elmo MN. Series 5 Building. ----- Original Message ----- From: flybymike To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:45 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 0-200 Firewall forward photos? Does anyone have any Continental 0-200 firewall forward photos they can share? Thanks. Mike Custard Bend, OR. Kitfox SS 75% ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 10/31/2007 10:06 AM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:26 AM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: Kitfox-List: Moderator Reminder -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe I have been one of the guys that has been guilty of personal chatter.. I also feel that the list for the first time in quite a while has felt like family. even though we are spread over the world we are close. I was going to the kitfox fly in this fall not to show my plane but to see Lowell and Kay along with others. When Lowell had his accident I was devastated. When someone like Kevin show pictures of his plane I am proud to be part of the group. I love to see pictures and stories from Michel in Norway. Maybe I was able on the way to help someone to finish his project in a safe way. This info would not be used if we did not have a rapier with each other, this is building trust. John Oakley Speedster 4 with long and short wings 912ul cap 1400 hours in kitfox's ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:19 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder This list, unlike others, does give the address of every post. Quite often I will send messages directly. More often than not I get direct replies. As you say, if I'm replying to a specific person then the rest of the group may not need to see it every time. As for the full signature and the DNA statement I tend to use it on longer posts or at the beginning of a thread without the DNA... I, like most, also have my e-mail address as part of my signature to make a direct reply easier. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 12:22 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder > > > > At 07:21 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: > >If it is to be friendly, then why cant a person offer words of > >encouragement when one posts up "I got my first flight in today and > >I LOVE my new kitfox".. most would love to have a reply to that not > >just have the thread die with no follow up? > > OK. Let me clarify. I WANT you to send the personal > messages. I WANT this to be a community. Just ask yourself, when you > post the message, whether the entire list NEEDS to see it, or can it > be sent directly to the interested party. In either case I want the > message to be sent. Please don't get riled, it was just a > casual reminder. > > > Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:02 AM PST US From: Jim Corner Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electronic Rudder Trim The control is a knob..... I initially started with a slide potentiometer for better visualization of the servo position but they are very scarce. Since the servo always follows the pot position I think it is superior to the "push to move" switch systems. With a dot or other marking on the rotary knob you always know the trim position. JIm Model 2, 582, IVO med IFA, 1100 hrs Model 5 under construction Calgary AB On 4-Nov-07, at 8:28 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > At 09:16 PM 11/3/2007, you wrote: >> Variable potentiometers are used to input a >> signal to the microcontoller and the servos follow the potentiometer >> position. > > So then is the control a knob? Or can you do the "push to move" > switch typical of trim systems? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:18 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder MessageAlmost right on time, wasn't it this time last year that somebody threw a hissy fit with his "open letter" that ended in creation of a separate list? Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder This list, unlike others, does give the address of every post. Quite often I will send messages directly. More often than not I get direct replies. As you say, if I'm replying to a specific person then the rest of the group may not need to see it every time. As for the full signature and the DNA statement I tend to use it on longer posts or at the beginning of a thread without the DNA... I, like most, also have my e-mail address as part of my signature to make a direct reply easier. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 12:22 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder > > > > At 07:21 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: > >If it is to be friendly, then why cant a person offer words of > >encouragement when one posts up "I got my first flight in today and > >I LOVE my new kitfox".. most would love to have a reply to that not > >just have the thread die with no follow up? > > OK. Let me clarify. I WANT you to send the personal > messages. I WANT this to be a community. Just ask yourself, when you > post the message, whether the entire list NEEDS to see it, or can it > be sent directly to the interested party. In either case I want the > message to be sent. Please don't get riled, it was just a > casual reminder. > > > Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ========== > Support Your Lists This Month -- > Get Some the Annual Contribution link Terrific Free Contribution Web href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution > support! > bsp; ========== > Kitfox-List Un/Subscription, > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ========== > bsp; via the href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder From: "eskflyer" Yep and several of us got banned from the list for talking back to the teacher . [Laughing] DO NOT archive this . OHH yeah my sig. is below -------- FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD 582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA Leni's FULL-LOTUS floats on MY plane forever Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143807#143807 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:51 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder John sez: >Yep and several of us got banned from the list for talking back to >the teacher. [Laughing] You know, the most frustrating thing for any teacher is when the children don't even understand WHY they are being disciplined! :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ Do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:00 PM PST US From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rusty Wing Strut Cross Brace Wow! I have sure received a lot of good information from this question. My thanks to each of you. The knowledge and experience on this list makes it possible for me to have fun with my Kitfox. Again, I am most appreciative of each of your great suggestions. Jimmie do not archieve ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:30 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim From: "akflyer" What servo do you use? Is it a digital servo? Thanks DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143821#143821 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:02 PM PST US From: 84KF Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Moderator Reminder Is this site being referred to? http://avidfoxflyers.com/index.php Actually, it's nothing like the Matronics "List". It's very informal, laid back, and posters have exchange thoughts, ideas, pictures, and humor in a casual atmosphere, much as in real life. Every one is welcome. It's worth a look-see. If it's not your cup of tea, so be it. No sig Steve ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:37 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim Hi Guys, When I built my fox I bought a pot and digital box that I mounted a wheel to that made it look just like a Cessna trim wheel. You set it where you want it and it goes to that spot and stops. It also has a led system that is a 10 or 12 dashes to show the position of the trim. I use it on my elevator and cowl flaps. I will be at the hanger in the morning and get the info off the box. I used a mac servo cause that was what I had. John Oakley Speedster looking for a helicopter -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:54 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim What servo do you use? Is it a digital servo? Thanks DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143821#143821 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe From: "wingnut" I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:14 PM PST US From: RAY Gignac Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 91 2 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure! I'm no expert!! Ray> Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe> From: wingnut@spamarrest.com> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" > > I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it s eems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Wes tach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe wi th a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do.> > --------> Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200> Rotax 912UL> Flying Weekly> Laurens, SC (34A)> > > > > Rea d this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p= ============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:55 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe From: "wingnut" > I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure! I'm no expert!! Hmm. That would be interesting. I don't have CHT but I have EGT... Anyone else running with no CHT? -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143863#143863 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:03 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe Isn't CHT water temp for a 912 ??? I heard the same about egt... Not necessary for a 4 stroke. Although mine has it too. Steve Bennett Durham NC ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:30 PM PST US From: Jim Corner Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim On 4-Nov-07, at 1:54 PM, akflyer wrote: > What servo do you use? Is it a digital servo? > > I use a standard type R/C servo that has been around for at least 10 years. Specifically a Hitec HS-805BB 1/4 Scale. There is also a newer type servo that uses improved digital technology, but they are more expensive and I am quite satisfied with the above. Jim Corner Model 2, 582,. Ivo med !FA, 1100 hrs Model 5 under construction Calgary, AB ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:29 PM PST US From: RAY Gignac Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe As far as I know you don't need the EGT probe! I have one because the origi nal builder installed one. However, CHT which monitors the temps on the cy linder head is important. I remember viewing the rotax dvd I got a few mon ths ago. Ray> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe> From: wingnut@spamarrest.c om> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:39:26 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > > I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressur e! I'm no expert!! > > > Hmm. That would be interesting. I don't have CHT b ut I have EGT... Anyone else running with no CHT?> > --------> Luis Rodrigu ez> Model IV 1200> Rotax 912UL> Flying Weekly> Laurens, SC (34A)> > > > > R ead this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p ============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:48 PM PST US From: "Vic Baker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe Interesting topic. Six months ago, when I was designing my panel, I ask Lockwood about EGT. He said "forget that". And so I did. Vic Baker S7 912S Warp 95% Carson City, Nv ----- Original Message ----- From: RAY Gignac To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure! I'm no expert!! Ray > Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe > From: wingnut@spamarrest.com > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:55:11 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849 > > > > > === > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now! ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Electronic Rudder Trim From: "akflyer" thats the info I needed... a standard RC servo puts out ~42 oz. in of Tq. The 805 is 343 oz. in I have a few HS5955-TG that I will have to try out. Thanks for the reply Do not Archive -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143874#143874 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:53 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe Another viewpoint.............I have four EGT probes on my 912 feeding i nto a four position switch that feeds the gauge. I don't concern myself too much with it during normal conditions, but it sure comes in handy wh en troubleshooting a problem. Being able to switch to each cylinder's EG T individually narrows things down quite quickly. Rex in S.E Michigan / 912 UL / Warp / Model 3 / 628 Hours -- "Vic Baker" wrote: Interesting topic. Six months ago, when I was designing my panel, I ask Lockwood about EGT. He said "forget that". And so I did. Vic Baker S7 912S Warp 95% Carson City, Nv----- Original Message ----- From: RAY Gignac To: kitfox- list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:07 PMSubject: RE: K itfox-List: Broken EGT probe I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pre ssure! I'm no expert!! Ray > Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe > From: wingnut@spamarrest.com > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:55:11 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I notice d that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pi pe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to rep lace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849 > > > > > === > > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble c hallenge with star power. Play Now! href="http://www.matronics.com/con tribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.co ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== =============== ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:23 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering Kitfox WAS: King Fox rims I agree. I trailer for every flight too. But I'd love to see someone unload, set up and be ready to fly in four minutes. It takes me more like 25-30, including filling the tanks. That's a great option. There is a guy that live just north of me who does the same thing. Waits for the nice weather and pulls it over to a local grass strip and within 15 minutes can be airborne. Kevin Cozik ----- Original Message ----- From: "jdmol2002" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering Kitfox WAS: King Fox rims > > Seeing your on the subject of trailering. Anybody that is wondering about > trailering a kitfox, I do it every flight. I pay zero for hanger fees, and > I can go out in the garage anytime and work on my plane. It takes me 4 > minutes to get off the trailer and ready to fly. The kitfox is made to > trailer,and I wonder why more people don't do it. If you have your own > strip I understand. It is like having a boat, some people like it in the > water getting full of scum, and others like it in the garage to keep it > looking new. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143620#143620 > > > Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:23 PM PST US From: jason Parker Subject: Kitfox-List: New Rotax 912ul for sale thousands below list Hello, I purchsed a unfinished kit from an individual. It has a new rotax 912ul and I'm going with one of my own fuel injected rotax's. www.experimentalfuelinjection.com I will sell the engine whole for 12000USD or I will sell all the external parts: cdi boxs, coils, stater flywheel, waterspyder, rectifyer, carbs, intake manifols and boots 4000USD. If I can sell the parts for 4000USD, I will keep the block to fuel inject. Jason 661 428-1850 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:50 PM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure! I'm no expert!! Luis, I rely heavily on the relative EGT readings to guide the seasonal changes to the main jets on my 912. I can not imagine flying without. I check it every flight every time I change the throttle setting to be aware of how the engine is operating. I would recommend going with the westach probe to maintain and "apples" comparison. John Kerr, approaching 800 hours. -------------- Original message -------------- From: RAY Gignac I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure! I'm no expert!! Ray > Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe > From: wingnut@spamarrest.com > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:55:11 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849 > > > > > === > > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!

I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure!  I'm no expert!!

Luis, I rely heavily on the relative EGT readings to guide the seasonal changes to the main jets on my 912.  I can not imagine flying without. I check it every flight every time I change the throttle setting to be aware of how the engine is operating.

I would recommend going with the westach probe to maintain and "apples" comparison.

John Kerr, approaching 800 hours.

 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: RAY Gignac <kitfoxpilot@msn.com>
I don't know if this is true or not, but I read someplace that the rotax 912 does not need an EGT, but you do need the CHT, oil temp and oil pressure!  I'm no expert!!
 
Ray

> Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe
> From: wingnut@spamarrest.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:55:11 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do.
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://f orums. matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849
>
>
>
>
> ====
>
>
>


Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:46 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe From: "wingnut" > Interesting topic. Six months ago, when I was designing my panel, I ask Lockwood about EGT. He said "forget that". And so I did. I guess things just got more complicated for me then. The gage I have is a combo gage with EGT, Water Temp, Oil Temp and Oil pressure. There's no room in my panel for a new gage so I guess I'd have to find a similar gage with CHT instead of EGT. That's going to pinch a bit more than a new probe. Bummer. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143893#143893 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:34 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe Luis, The water temp is equivalent to the CHT since the cylinders are water cooled. You are fine. I had the EGT as well, but seldom looked at it. I didn't have the convenience John has with one on each exhaust stack. My thought is, and consider that my airplane is sitting in a salvage yard somewhere. is that rather than having a dead gauge staring you in the face every flight. I'd pony up for the new sender and then the needle would be in the proper range on the gauge face. I sure liked the look of all the needles in the middle of the green. Until the last flight, I mean. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe > > >> Interesting topic. Six months ago, when I was designing my panel, I ask >> Lockwood about EGT. He said "forget that". And so I did. > > > I guess things just got more complicated for me then. The gage I have is a > combo gage with EGT, Water Temp, Oil Temp and Oil pressure. There's no > room in my panel for a new gage so I guess I'd have to find a similar gage > with CHT instead of EGT. That's going to pinch a bit more than a new > probe. Bummer. > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143893#143893 > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:48 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe Luis I may have a spare probe for the westac, give me a day to look at the hanger.... its free John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:55 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken EGT probe I lost my EGT readings on my last flight. Checking the probe, I noticed that it seems to have come apart near the point where it enters the pipe. I have Westach combination gage and I was wondering if I need to replace the probe with a Westach probe or if any EGT probe will do. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143849#143849 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:48 PM PST US From: "Paul Morel" Subject: Kitfox-List: Aircraft Bill of Sale I read from the Kitfox site the "Bill of Sale" regulations posted by John. It says "If you purchased your kit from another builder you will need to have that person complete an AC8050-2" Does anyone know if that form is required even if the kit was never registered? Paul Morel ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:07 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT probe Luis=0A=0AThe water temperature is the cylinder head temperature. Rotax en gines come with a sensor (or two) already installed in the cylinder head. That is correct location to take a temperature reading that you can call a cylinder head reading. There is actually not enough room to install a stan dard cylinder head temp sensor under the spark plug. When I built my plane , the water temperature gauge was installed in the spyder tank. This is a pretty accurate reading for the water temperature and thus the cylinder hea d temperature. It is actually more accurate to use the sensor in the cylin der head for those rare instances when the cylinder boils the coolant and t hen with the sensor in the head you will get a warning of a problem. The i nstructions that came with the engine (1994 era) actually had the water tem p in the spyder and the oil temp in the dry sump. The dry sump oil sensor is a measure of the bypass gases and is not even close to the oil temp so t hat sensor was relocated. Then an oil cooler had to be installed because the actual oil temps were much higher than recorded in the dry sump. The point is that the water temp sensor you have will be fine, especially if it is c onnected to the sensor in the cylinder head.=0A=0AJim Shumaker=0ASalinas, C A=0AKitfox III, 912ul, 835 hours=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom : wingnut =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 6:18:17 PM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Re: Broken EGT .com>=0A=0A=0A> Interesting topic. Six months ago, when I was designing my panel, I ask Lockwood about EGT. He said "forget that". And so I did. =0A =0A=0AI guess things just got more complicated for me then. The gage I have is a combo gage with EGT, Water Temp, Oil Temp and Oil pressure. There's n o room in my panel for a new gage so I guess I'd have to find a similar gag e with CHT instead of EGT. That's going to pinch a bit more than a new pro be. Bummer.=0A=0A--------=0ALuis Rodriguez=0AModel IV 1200=0ARotax 912UL=0A Flying Weekly=0ALaurens, SC (34A)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here :=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143893#143893=0A=0A=0A ============== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.