Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:13 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle)
1. 06:02 AM - Re: coverings (Andy Fultz)
2. 06:04 AM - Turkey Day! (fox5flyer)
3. 06:09 AM - Re: Poly-Brush? (Andy Fultz)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: coverings (Noel Loveys)
5. 06:18 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel Loveys)
6. 06:31 AM - Re: Turkey Day! (Lynn Matteson)
7. 08:15 AM - Re: Turkey Day! (Rexster)
8. 09:23 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs)
9. 11:21 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (John W. Hart)
10. 11:32 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (aerobatics@aol.com)
11. 11:36 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (aerobatics@aol.com)
12. 02:48 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michel Verheughe)
13. 02:51 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Cudnohufsky's)
14. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michel Verheughe)
15. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (84KF)
16. 03:37 PM - Re: How much Poly-Brush? (Ken Potter)
17. 03:39 PM - Re: How much Poly-Brush? (Ken Potter)
18. 03:41 PM - Re: How much Poly-Spray? (Ken Potter)
19. 03:43 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys)
20. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs)
21. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (John W. Hart)
22. 04:25 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys)
23. 05:22 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs)
24. 05:28 PM - Re: Turkey Day! (Steve Shinabery)
25. 05:54 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys)
26. 06:43 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Rexinator)
27. 09:01 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (clemwehner)
Message 0
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists.
One of my favorite kind of comments is when write to me and says something like,
"Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!".
That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists. Its
always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning
to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I would
think that working with it in an enclosed work space there would be much
more risk due to the possibility of explosion and fire and that alone would
prompt me to open the doors to my hangar, shut off the pilot lights etc. and
just be prudent.
Lowell,
There's another benefit of the Stewart System. Your above concern is not
a concern with the Stewart System. Keep the fires burning and work on!
Andy F.
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it
doesn't, have a great day anyway!
Best Regards,
Deke
do not archive
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Don,
Ceconite is the fabric of choice for the Stewart System. I am not sure if
the Cecobond glue is the same or if the Stewart glues have been reformulated
to better suit their finish coats. That is a question for Doug or Dan.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Donroutledge@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:29 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Poly-Brush?
Hi Andy, Does the Stewart system include the fabric also or can I apply
the Stewart products over ceconite?Thanks for your help. Don Kitfox MKIV
copy/subaru/west Tn
In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:29:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
andynfultz@bellsouth.net writes:
<andynfultz@bellsouth.net>
I'll second that. Now that I'm in the process of covering, I can assure
you
I will never use that other stuff again. Stewart Systems is ten times
easier to use, there's no volital chemicals and there's no odor. Clean
up
is a cinch. That other stuff has such a strong odor it about chokes me
now
to even be around where it is being used. Stewart's is now STC'd and
will
soon become the standard for aircraft covering. You'll also save
several
pounds in the finished weight. NO, I don't work for the company and
have no
ties other than being a satisfied user of the product.
Andy Fultz
AVID Mk IV Speedwing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave G.
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 4:39 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Poly-Brush?
As long as coatings are being discussed, I'd like to mention the
coatings
from Stewart Systems. I know that Polyfiber works but I had/have a huge
problem with the MEK or one of the solvents in it. I can only use it for
a
very short time and my eyes start to feel very dry and irritated, a
feeling
that lasts for days even if the shop is well ventilated. I decided to
try
Stewart Systems line of water borne product and so far I couldn't be
happier. The support has been excellent the price has been good and I
have
no problem being around and in contact with any of the products. I've
found
the whole line to be easy to use. There is no doubt Polyfiber is the
standard, but the alternatives have worked out better for me.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not ========================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money
wasters of 2007.
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Why take the chance with the MEK?? If using rubber gloves and a full air
supplied helmet is overkill at least it is overkill that will err on the
side of safety.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G.
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:00 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: coverings
>
>
>
> I don't believe that MEK is quite as deadly as some believe, although
> caution and ventilation is clearly advised. This link will
> take you to the
> best information I have seen on the matter.
>
> http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/hea
> lth_mek.html
>
> Anyone reading the sheet will notice the advice about it
> being a fairly
> powerful irritant to the eyes. I think reactions are likely
> to vary somewhat
> from person to person. I appear to be more sensitive for some
> reason, even a
> fairly short exposure leaves my eyes feeling extremely dry
> and irritated,
> and it lasts for days. Sort of like an eyeful of sand. It's quite
> worthwhile for me to avoid it but nobody else I know has the
> problem to
> anything close to the same degree.
>
> Shifting between the two systems has given me the opportunity
> to try two in
> short succession and I feel the Stewarts is much easier to
> use. However as
> Lowell points out, longevity is unknown at this point.
>
>
> Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight instructor
had
me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' agl. The first minute
or so
seemed like an eternity not to mention a roller coaster. After that,
once I
calmed down, the the ride got a lot smoother. I found I was actually
telling direction by feeling the sun on my face. I was concentrating on
my
butt. I had read somewhere that's where the term flying by the seat of
your
pants comes from.
The exercise was apparently to teach me that I could fly the plane
regardless of what happened.
Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern
Campbellton, Newfoundland,
Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
<mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco
Menezes
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox
Michel,
I didn't avoid a bank. I was focused on staying right side up, keeping
airspeed and rate of descent constant and the ball centered. Because I
wasn't concerned about course (GPS showed no obstructions below) I did
do an
unintentional 180 degree, 3 minute turn.
To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted based on
whether engine is certificated or not. If it is, I made up all that
stuff in
my last 2 posts. ;-)
Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:
> I had a similar experience returning from Oshkosh this August, flying
> over lake Michigan.
Thanks for
_____
Be a better pen pal.
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Same to you and all, Deke.
It's snowing down here...just enough to not be able to fly, but not
enough to warrant putting the skis on just yet.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs
do not archive
On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those
> it doesn't, have a great day anyway!
> Best Regards,
> Deke
> do not archive
>
> ============================================================ _-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi Deke,
Your suggestions for my plumbing worked great. I ran a compressed air
hose to the T fitting I installed after the backflow device, and ran the
system (three times). Thanks for your advice.
Enjoy your day.
Rex
-- "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> wrote:
Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it doe
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Noel sez:
>On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight
>instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000'
>agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on
>my face.
Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your
face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no
trouble staying upright... :-)
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox
Noel sez:
>On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight
>instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000'
>agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on
>my face.
Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your
face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no
trouble staying upright... :-)
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
In my 42 years of flying as an instrument flight instructor, I've been on
top of a lower deck of clouds with a sloping top more times than I can
count. I've seen a lot of people try flying with only outside visual
reference in this condition experience spatial disorientation. They
could/would not believe the gauges to the point that they were trying to fly
with the wings parallel to the top of the cloud deck, fight heading changes,
and be completely uncoordinated to the point that they fatigued themselves
in short order (10 to 15 minutes) and could not control the aircraft. To
demonstrate what spatial disorientation actually feels like, I often let the
instrument applicant have complete control of the aircraft, ask him/her to
hold the aircraft straight and level with their eyes closed until I see
"graveyard spiral" proceed to the point that they don't have a clue as to
whether the aircraft is turning, climbing, or diving. I allow the aircraft
to continue the steep spiral up to a 60 degree bank and the airspeed up to
maneuvering speed before I tell them to open their eyes. I've never had
anybody (me included) that can fly straight and level with their hands and
feet on the controls without an autopilot of some sort for over 7 minutes,
even in completely calm, smooth air. Usually, when I tell them to open
their eyes and look outside, they are in complete disbelief of the attitude
of the aircraft. Word of caution: Don't try this solo! Always have another
pilot with you just in case I'm flying nearby. I don't like mid-air
collisions!
John Hart
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Sun on the face is a good one.... I teach instrument for a living and
have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr if makes
it worse do something else ....
don't reccommend any of that of course...
do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit
with a safety pilot a few times a year. Proper scan along a bit of
comfort knowing u can could save your life even if not legal.
Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even
when being careful.
I also have heard some wise instrument pilots won't go unless there at
least VFR legal under very wise
fly safe
Dave KF2
________________________________________________________________________
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Sun on the face is a good one.... I teach instrument for a living and
have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr if makes
it worse do something else ....
don't reccommend any of that of course...
do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit
with a safety pilot a few times a year. Proper scan along a bit of
comfort knowing u can could save your life even if not legal.
Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even
when being careful.
I also have heard some wise instrument pilots won't go unless there at
least VFR legal under very wise
fly safe
Dave KF2
________________________________________________________________________
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
On Nov 22, 2007, at 12:17 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:
> To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted
Then you confirm what I thought, Marco, thank you. Mind you, if I fly
"over the top" in Norway, nobody will know because when I am up there,
I am only a tag on the controller's secondary radar! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
Guys,
While flight trainiing in a 150 my instructor had me do an exercise one
morning where we climbed to altitude and then he had me put my chin in my
chest and fly by feel and sound, I did well for a while and then the engine
started to rev, so my senses told me we were decending so I pulled back on
the yoke and heard the engine rev a little more. All the time my body senses
told me I was upright and straight. My instructor had me look up at that
time and to my surprise we were in a 1 G spiral headed towards the ground,
so when I pulled back earlier I simply tightened the spiral. I recovered and
learned a valuable lesson, senses can be decieving.
Lloyd
Model 5 Rebuild
Rotax 912
Iron Mountain Mi.
>
> Noel sez:
>
>>On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight instructor
>>had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' agl...I found I was
>>actually telling direction by feeling the sun on my face.
>
> Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your face
> you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no trouble staying
> upright... :-)
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:37 PM, akflyer wrote:
> Even if you are IFR rated an the plane has a full panel, you better be
> ready to fly with no gyros.
I agree with you, Leonard, when you fly, you have to be ready for
anything and it is better to practice whenever one can.
But I agree with John when he says that even the best pilot cannot
sustain level flight in IMC, without gyro/GPS for more than a limited
time. I think that most aviator handbooks will agree with that too. The
next factor, which may be individual, is how we handle the situation
when adrenaline pumps in our veins. I know that I can fly my replica
Kitfox with exactly the same instruments in a flight simulator for
hours. But when I had to do it in real life for ten minutes, I noticed
how fast I lost concentration.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
"....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without
gyro/GPS for more than a limited
time."
Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that..
"Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when
necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to
maintain runway heading.
I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty
shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore.
The man is now 85 and still does it right...most every weekend in his
basic IFR Skyhawk. No auto pilot, no wing leveler. Just good
airmanship and a constant instrument scan.
Needle ...ball...airspeed... learn the basics... then get the "toys".
Steve
84KF
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How much Poly-Brush? |
I've just finished applying the polybrush to my Kitfox II. For three cross coats
(six coats total) I used three gallons plus the required reducer at 4/1.
Cheers
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147982#147982
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How much Poly-Brush? |
Sorry for the error in my previous reply. I used three gallons on Polybrush.
Crosscoats were done with the polyspray.
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147983#147983
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How much Poly-Spray? |
I just finished the Polyspray for my Kitfox II. I used 3 gallons plus the reducer
at 4/1 to do three cross coats.
Cheers
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147986#147986
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
For the first couple of minutes I wasn't feeling any thing on my face...
The only thing that kept me coherent at all was the knowledge that the
instructor was in the seat beside me if I inadvertently stood the plane on
its tail or nose. During the whole exercise he didn't touch the controls at
all... In fact he seemed quite impressed.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:52 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox
>
>
> Noel sez:
>
> >On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight
> >instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000'
> >agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on
> >my face.
>
> Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your
> face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no
> trouble staying upright... :-)
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
Michel sed:
>"....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without
>gyro/GPS for more than a limited time."
To which Steve sez:
>Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that..
> "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when
>necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to
>maintain runway heading.
Your dad was using gyros. The "G" in "DG" stands for "gyro" and the
term "needle" usually refers to a turn & bank indicator--also a gyro.
>I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty
>shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore.
When instrument pilots practice "partial panel" they are typically
covering up their vacuum-powered gyros (usually the attitude
indicator and directional gyro) but they still use the electric gyro
(turn coordinators have largely replaced turn & bank indicators but
provide much the same information). So we are using "needle, ball,
and airspeed" just like your dad.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
Uhhh, da turn indicator (needle) be gyro. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_indicator
John Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox
"....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without
gyro/GPS for more than a limited
time."
Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that..
"Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when
necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to
maintain runway heading.
I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty
shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore.
The man is now 85 and still does it right...most every weekend in his
basic IFR Skyhawk. No auto pilot, no wing leveler. Just good
airmanship and a constant instrument scan.
Needle ...ball...airspeed... learn the basics... then get the "toys".
Steve
84KF
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old
instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way
to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the
plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did.
Initially, because I was not expecting anything like that exercise I was all
over the sky. Then I remembered the passage form the book and I
concentrated on the sound of the engine and the feeling in my derriere.
When I did that I straightened out. It was at that time I noticed the sun
shining on the side of my face.... I tried to keep it there assuming if I
did that I would be flying straight... I was right.
The instructor told me at first I almost stalled a couple of times and
almost spiraled the plane at other times. Then he said it was almost all of
a sudden I straightened the plane out and flew straight.
What I learned was not to always believe my eyes but all my senses and not
to get upset because of a little disorientation..... I wonder if John
Kennedy Jr. was put through that exercise.
Noel
> In my 42 years of flying as an instrument flight instructor, I've been on
> top of a lower deck of clouds with a sloping top more times than I can
> count. I've seen a lot of people try flying with only outside visual
> reference in this condition experience spatial disorientation. They
> could/would not believe the gauges to the point that they were trying to
fly
> with the wings parallel to the top of the cloud deck, fight heading
changes,
> and be completely uncoordinated to the point that they fatigued themselves
> in short order (10 to 15 minutes) and could not control the aircraft. To
> demonstrate what spatial disorientation actually feels like, I often let
the
> instrument applicant have complete control of the aircraft, ask him/her to
> hold the aircraft straight and level with their eyes closed until I see
> "graveyard spiral" proceed to the point that they don't have a clue as to
> whether the aircraft is turning, climbing, or diving. I allow the
aircraft
> to continue the steep spiral up to a 60 degree bank and the airspeed up to
> maneuvering speed before I tell them to open their eyes. I've never had
> anybody (me included) that can fly straight and level with their hands and
> feet on the controls without an autopilot of some sort for over 7 minutes,
> even in completely calm, smooth air. Usually, when I tell them to open
> their eyes and look outside, they are in complete disbelief of the
attitude
> of the aircraft. Word of caution: Don't try this solo! Always have
another
> pilot with you just in case I'm flying nearby. I don't like mid-air
> collisions!
>
> John Hart
>
>
>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Noel sez:
>A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old
>instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way
>to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the
>plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did.
Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any
instrument instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a
situation where your derriere is quite satisfied that you are
straight and level when, in fact, you are in dire straights. The
infamous "death spiral" can easily be achieved with 1g straight into
your seat and, without some indication of the problem, will feel just
fine right until you impact the earth.
At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent
plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive
encounters with instrument conditions.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
To all my Kitfox Friends.a very Happy Thanks Giving .and Blue Skys to
each and every one.. Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> Same to you and all, Deke.
> It's snowing down here...just enough to not be able to fly, but not
> enough to warrant putting the skis on just yet.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/420+ hrs
> do not archive
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
>> Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it
>> doesn't, have a great day anyway!
>> Best Regards,
>> Deke
>> do not archive
>>
>> ============================================================
>>
>
>
> 269.16.3/1144 - Release Date: 11/21/2007 4:28 PM
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
On that I heartily agree. In the meantime I have been very successful at
avoiding IFR conditions.
Noel
Do not archive
>
> At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent
> plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive
> encounters with instrument conditions.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR in a kitfox |
I just thought I'd add my 1 cent comment. I too once upon a time passed
my Instrument rating check ride. I'm sure I'd need plenty of training to
regain the required skills again to safely fly IFR. I remember
practicing with the hood and found it hard not to notice the sunlight
cues that helped keep me straight before I had really learned to really
fly by just instrument scan. The point made by attempting to fly only by
"the seat of your pants" (blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy
it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the
instruments. Partial panel exercises show you how to manage with some
instrument failures and incorporate cues from other instruments not
normally relied on for atitude indication. (engine rpm for instance)
Yes there are clues outside the windows that can help in unintended IFR
flight as well as the indications the airplane gives. Sounds, feel, and
instruments. They all should be understood and safely practiced.
To me the wonderful thing about flying is learning to use so many
aspects, physical, technical, mental and emotional in just the right way
that can make a successful flight so rewarding. I eventually learned to
enjoy the challenge to practice and perfect any mundane aspect of flying.
Keep learning and practicing.
Rex
do not archive
Michael Gibbs wrote:
>
> Noel sez:
>
>> A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old
>> instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the
>> best way
>> to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude
>> of the
>> plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did.
>
>
> Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any instrument
> instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a situation where your
> derriere is quite satisfied that you are straight and level when, in
> fact, you are in dire straights. The infamous "death spiral" can
> easily be achieved with 1g straight into your seat and, without some
> indication of the problem, will feel just fine right until you impact
> the earth.
>
> At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent
> plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive
> encounters with instrument conditions.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I recall an experience that drove home the point about not trusting your
"seat". I was a young USAF instructor in T-38's. My student and I were
flying as the wingman of a two ship formation in heavy IMC making a turn
onto the ILS final headed for a 2-ship landing at Sheppard AFB, TX. As
wingman we were flying completely by visual reference to the leader just
a few feet away (we maintained 3-foot wingtip spacing in T-38
formation). As we turned left onto final my seat told me we were making
a left turn. But my student, who was on the controls in the front seat,
swore we were turning right and kept saying we were turning the wrong
direction onto final. To each of us the sensations were exceptionally
real and we both had no doubt the direction we each thought we were
turning.
The interesting part is that the turning sensation continued long after
my instruments showed me that lead had rolled us out of the turn and had
us well established wings level on the ILS final. Our seats said were
were still turning--in both directions at once! Fortunately, I was a
well-trained USAF instrument pilot and knew to rely on the instruments,
but the seat sensations were almost overwhelmingly convincing. Anyone
lesser trained could have fallen victim to the misleading sensations so
easily. My student learned a great lesson that day and it solidified my
knowledge forever.
Clem Wehner
Lawton, OK
"The point made by attempting to fly only by "the seat of your pants"
(blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy
it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the
instruments.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|