---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/22/07: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:13 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:02 AM - Re: coverings (Andy Fultz) 2. 06:04 AM - Turkey Day! (fox5flyer) 3. 06:09 AM - Re: Poly-Brush? (Andy Fultz) 4. 06:18 AM - Re: coverings (Noel Loveys) 5. 06:18 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel Loveys) 6. 06:31 AM - Re: Turkey Day! (Lynn Matteson) 7. 08:15 AM - Re: Turkey Day! (Rexster) 8. 09:23 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs) 9. 11:21 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (John W. Hart) 10. 11:32 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (aerobatics@aol.com) 11. 11:36 AM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (aerobatics@aol.com) 12. 02:48 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michel Verheughe) 13. 02:51 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Cudnohufsky's) 14. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michel Verheughe) 15. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (84KF) 16. 03:37 PM - Re: How much Poly-Brush? (Ken Potter) 17. 03:39 PM - Re: How much Poly-Brush? (Ken Potter) 18. 03:41 PM - Re: How much Poly-Spray? (Ken Potter) 19. 03:43 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys) 20. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs) 21. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: IFR in a kitfox (John W. Hart) 22. 04:25 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys) 23. 05:22 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Michael Gibbs) 24. 05:28 PM - Re: Turkey Day! (Steve Shinabery) 25. 05:54 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Noel R. C. Loveys) 26. 06:43 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (Rexinator) 27. 09:01 PM - Re: IFR in a kitfox (clemwehner) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:53 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: What Are You Thankful For...? Dear Listers, Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed upon us. Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists. One of my favorite kind of comments is when write to me and says something like, "Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!". That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists. Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning to check my List email!! Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for their continued operation and upgrade? The List Contribution Site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you in advance for your kind consideration, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:02 AM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: coverings I would think that working with it in an enclosed work space there would be much more risk due to the possibility of explosion and fire and that alone would prompt me to open the doors to my hangar, shut off the pilot lights etc. and just be prudent. Lowell, There's another benefit of the Stewart System. Your above concern is not a concern with the Stewart System. Keep the fires burning and work on! Andy F. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:08 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Turkey Day! Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it doesn't, have a great day anyway! Best Regards, Deke do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:41 AM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Poly-Brush? Don, Ceconite is the fabric of choice for the Stewart System. I am not sure if the Cecobond glue is the same or if the Stewart glues have been reformulated to better suit their finish coats. That is a question for Doug or Dan. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Donroutledge@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:29 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Poly-Brush? Hi Andy, Does the Stewart system include the fabric also or can I apply the Stewart products over ceconite?Thanks for your help. Don Kitfox MKIV copy/subaru/west Tn In a message dated 11/20/2007 9:29:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, andynfultz@bellsouth.net writes: I'll second that. Now that I'm in the process of covering, I can assure you I will never use that other stuff again. Stewart Systems is ten times easier to use, there's no volital chemicals and there's no odor. Clean up is a cinch. That other stuff has such a strong odor it about chokes me now to even be around where it is being used. Stewart's is now STC'd and will soon become the standard for aircraft covering. You'll also save several pounds in the finished weight. NO, I don't work for the company and have no ties other than being a satisfied user of the product. Andy Fultz AVID Mk IV Speedwing -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave G. Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 4:39 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Poly-Brush? As long as coatings are being discussed, I'd like to mention the coatings from Stewart Systems. I know that Polyfiber works but I had/have a huge problem with the MEK or one of the solvents in it. I can only use it for a very short time and my eyes start to feel very dry and irritated, a feeling that lasts for days even if the shop is well ventilated. I decided to try Stewart Systems line of water borne product and so far I couldn't be happier. The support has been excellent the price has been good and I have no problem being around and in contact with any of the products. I've found the whole line to be easy to use. There is no doubt Polyfiber is the standard, but the alternatives have worked out better for me. Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 do not ======================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:28 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: coverings Why take the chance with the MEK?? If using rubber gloves and a full air supplied helmet is overkill at least it is overkill that will err on the side of safety. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G. > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:00 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: coverings > > > > I don't believe that MEK is quite as deadly as some believe, although > caution and ventilation is clearly advised. This link will > take you to the > best information I have seen on the matter. > > http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/hea > lth_mek.html > > Anyone reading the sheet will notice the advice about it > being a fairly > powerful irritant to the eyes. I think reactions are likely > to vary somewhat > from person to person. I appear to be more sensitive for some > reason, even a > fairly short exposure leaves my eyes feeling extremely dry > and irritated, > and it lasts for days. Sort of like an eyeful of sand. It's quite > worthwhile for me to avoid it but nobody else I know has the > problem to > anything close to the same degree. > > Shifting between the two systems has given me the opportunity > to try two in > short succession and I feel the Stewarts is much easier to > use. However as > Lowell points out, longevity is unknown at this point. > > > Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 > do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:28 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' agl. The first minute or so seemed like an eternity not to mention a roller coaster. After that, once I calmed down, the the ride got a lot smoother. I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on my face. I was concentrating on my butt. I had read somewhere that's where the term flying by the seat of your pants comes from. The exercise was apparently to teach me that I could fly the plane regardless of what happened. Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox Michel, I didn't avoid a bank. I was focused on staying right side up, keeping airspeed and rate of descent constant and the ball centered. Because I wasn't concerned about course (GPS showed no obstructions below) I did do an unintentional 180 degree, 3 minute turn. To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted based on whether engine is certificated or not. If it is, I made up all that stuff in my last 2 posts. ;-) Michel Verheughe wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Marco Menezes wrote: > I had a similar experience returning from Oshkosh this August, flying > over lake Michigan. Thanks for _____ Be a better pen pal. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:09 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turkey Day! Same to you and all, Deke. It's snowing down here...just enough to not be able to fly, but not enough to warrant putting the skis on just yet. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/420+ hrs do not archive On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those > it doesn't, have a great day anyway! > Best Regards, > Deke > do not archive > > ============================================================ _- > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:32 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turkey Day! Hi Deke, Your suggestions for my plumbing worked great. I ran a compressed air hose to the T fitting I installed after the backflow device, and ran the system (three times). Thanks for your advice. Enjoy your day. Rex -- "fox5flyer" wrote: Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it doe ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:11 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox Noel sez: >On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight >instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' >agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on >my face. Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no trouble staying upright... :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:36 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox Noel sez: >On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight >instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' >agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on >my face. Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no trouble staying upright... :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ In my 42 years of flying as an instrument flight instructor, I've been on top of a lower deck of clouds with a sloping top more times than I can count. I've seen a lot of people try flying with only outside visual reference in this condition experience spatial disorientation. They could/would not believe the gauges to the point that they were trying to fly with the wings parallel to the top of the cloud deck, fight heading changes, and be completely uncoordinated to the point that they fatigued themselves in short order (10 to 15 minutes) and could not control the aircraft. To demonstrate what spatial disorientation actually feels like, I often let the instrument applicant have complete control of the aircraft, ask him/her to hold the aircraft straight and level with their eyes closed until I see "graveyard spiral" proceed to the point that they don't have a clue as to whether the aircraft is turning, climbing, or diving. I allow the aircraft to continue the steep spiral up to a 60 degree bank and the airspeed up to maneuvering speed before I tell them to open their eyes. I've never had anybody (me included) that can fly straight and level with their hands and feet on the controls without an autopilot of some sort for over 7 minutes, even in completely calm, smooth air. Usually, when I tell them to open their eyes and look outside, they are in complete disbelief of the attitude of the aircraft. Word of caution: Don't try this solo! Always have another pilot with you just in case I'm flying nearby. I don't like mid-air collisions! John Hart ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox From: aerobatics@aol.com Sun on the face is a good one.... I teach instrument for a living and have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr if makes it worse do something else .... don't reccommend any of that of course... do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit with a safety pilot a few times a year. Proper scan along a bit of comfort knowing u can could save your life even if not legal. Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even when being careful. I also have heard some wise instrument pilots won't go unless there at least VFR legal under very wise fly safe Dave KF2 ________________________________________________________________________ http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox From: aerobatics@aol.com Sun on the face is a good one.... I teach instrument for a living and have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr if makes it worse do something else .... don't reccommend any of that of course... do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit with a safety pilot a few times a year. Proper scan along a bit of comfort knowing u can could save your life even if not legal. Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even when being careful. I also have heard some wise instrument pilots won't go unless there at least VFR legal under very wise fly safe Dave KF2 ________________________________________________________________________ http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:18 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox On Nov 22, 2007, at 12:17 AM, Marco Menezes wrote: > To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted Then you confirm what I thought, Marco, thank you. Mind you, if I fly "over the top" in Norway, nobody will know because when I am up there, I am only a tag on the controller's secondary radar! :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:05 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox Guys, While flight trainiing in a 150 my instructor had me do an exercise one morning where we climbed to altitude and then he had me put my chin in my chest and fly by feel and sound, I did well for a while and then the engine started to rev, so my senses told me we were decending so I pulled back on the yoke and heard the engine rev a little more. All the time my body senses told me I was upright and straight. My instructor had me look up at that time and to my surprise we were in a 1 G spiral headed towards the ground, so when I pulled back earlier I simply tightened the spiral. I recovered and learned a valuable lesson, senses can be decieving. Lloyd Model 5 Rebuild Rotax 912 Iron Mountain Mi. > > Noel sez: > >>On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight instructor >>had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' agl...I found I was >>actually telling direction by feeling the sun on my face. > > Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your face > you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no trouble staying > upright... :-) > > Mike G. > N728KF > Phoenix, AZ > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:53 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:37 PM, akflyer wrote: > Even if you are IFR rated an the plane has a full panel, you better be > ready to fly with no gyros. I agree with you, Leonard, when you fly, you have to be ready for anything and it is better to practice whenever one can. But I agree with John when he says that even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without gyro/GPS for more than a limited time. I think that most aviator handbooks will agree with that too. The next factor, which may be individual, is how we handle the situation when adrenaline pumps in our veins. I know that I can fly my replica Kitfox with exactly the same instruments in a flight simulator for hours. But when I had to do it in real life for ten minutes, I noticed how fast I lost concentration. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:08 PM PST US From: 84KF Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox "....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without gyro/GPS for more than a limited time." Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that.. "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to maintain runway heading. I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore. The man is now 85 and still does it right...most every weekend in his basic IFR Skyhawk. No auto pilot, no wing leveler. Just good airmanship and a constant instrument scan. Needle ...ball...airspeed... learn the basics... then get the "toys". Steve 84KF ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How much Poly-Brush? From: "Ken Potter" I've just finished applying the polybrush to my Kitfox II. For three cross coats (six coats total) I used three gallons plus the required reducer at 4/1. Cheers Ken Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147982#147982 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:51 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How much Poly-Brush? From: "Ken Potter" Sorry for the error in my previous reply. I used three gallons on Polybrush. Crosscoats were done with the polyspray. Ken Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147983#147983 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How much Poly-Spray? From: "Ken Potter" I just finished the Polyspray for my Kitfox II. I used 3 gallons plus the reducer at 4/1 to do three cross coats. Cheers Ken Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147986#147986 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:54 PM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox For the first couple of minutes I wasn't feeling any thing on my face... The only thing that kept me coherent at all was the knowledge that the instructor was in the seat beside me if I inadvertently stood the plane on its tail or nose. During the whole exercise he didn't touch the controls at all... In fact he seemed quite impressed. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:52 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox > > > Noel sez: > > >On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight > >instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' > >agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on > >my face. > > Doesn't seem a very useful exercise. If you can feel the sun on your > face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no > trouble staying upright... :-) > > Mike G. > N728KF > Phoenix, AZ > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:57 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox Michel sed: >"....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without >gyro/GPS for more than a limited time." To which Steve sez: >Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that.. > "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when >necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to >maintain runway heading. Your dad was using gyros. The "G" in "DG" stands for "gyro" and the term "needle" usually refers to a turn & bank indicator--also a gyro. >I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty >shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore. When instrument pilots practice "partial panel" they are typically covering up their vacuum-powered gyros (usually the attitude indicator and directional gyro) but they still use the electric gyro (turn coordinators have largely replaced turn & bank indicators but provide much the same information). So we are using "needle, ball, and airspeed" just like your dad. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:43 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox Uhhh, da turn indicator (needle) be gyro. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_indicator John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR in a kitfox "....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without gyro/GPS for more than a limited time." Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that.. "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to maintain runway heading. I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore. The man is now 85 and still does it right...most every weekend in his basic IFR Skyhawk. No auto pilot, no wing leveler. Just good airmanship and a constant instrument scan. Needle ...ball...airspeed... learn the basics... then get the "toys". Steve 84KF ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:31 PM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did. Initially, because I was not expecting anything like that exercise I was all over the sky. Then I remembered the passage form the book and I concentrated on the sound of the engine and the feeling in my derriere. When I did that I straightened out. It was at that time I noticed the sun shining on the side of my face.... I tried to keep it there assuming if I did that I would be flying straight... I was right. The instructor told me at first I almost stalled a couple of times and almost spiraled the plane at other times. Then he said it was almost all of a sudden I straightened the plane out and flew straight. What I learned was not to always believe my eyes but all my senses and not to get upset because of a little disorientation..... I wonder if John Kennedy Jr. was put through that exercise. Noel > In my 42 years of flying as an instrument flight instructor, I've been on > top of a lower deck of clouds with a sloping top more times than I can > count. I've seen a lot of people try flying with only outside visual > reference in this condition experience spatial disorientation. They > could/would not believe the gauges to the point that they were trying to fly > with the wings parallel to the top of the cloud deck, fight heading changes, > and be completely uncoordinated to the point that they fatigued themselves > in short order (10 to 15 minutes) and could not control the aircraft. To > demonstrate what spatial disorientation actually feels like, I often let the > instrument applicant have complete control of the aircraft, ask him/her to > hold the aircraft straight and level with their eyes closed until I see > "graveyard spiral" proceed to the point that they don't have a clue as to > whether the aircraft is turning, climbing, or diving. I allow the aircraft > to continue the steep spiral up to a 60 degree bank and the airspeed up to > maneuvering speed before I tell them to open their eyes. I've never had > anybody (me included) that can fly straight and level with their hands and > feet on the controls without an autopilot of some sort for over 7 minutes, > even in completely calm, smooth air. Usually, when I tell them to open > their eyes and look outside, they are in complete disbelief of the attitude > of the aircraft. Word of caution: Don't try this solo! Always have another > pilot with you just in case I'm flying nearby. I don't like mid-air > collisions! > > John Hart > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:39 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox Noel sez: >A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old >instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way >to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the >plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did. Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any instrument instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a situation where your derriere is quite satisfied that you are straight and level when, in fact, you are in dire straights. The infamous "death spiral" can easily be achieved with 1g straight into your seat and, without some indication of the problem, will feel just fine right until you impact the earth. At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive encounters with instrument conditions. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:57 PM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turkey Day! To all my Kitfox Friends.a very Happy Thanks Giving .and Blue Skys to each and every one.. Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 Lynn Matteson wrote: > > Same to you and all, Deke. > It's snowing down here...just enough to not be able to fly, but not > enough to warrant putting the skis on just yet. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/420+ hrs > do not archive > > > On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > >> Hey, all that this applies to, have a great Turkey Day! To those it >> doesn't, have a great day anyway! >> Best Regards, >> Deke >> do not archive >> >> ============================================================ >> > > > 269.16.3/1144 - Release Date: 11/21/2007 4:28 PM > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:34 PM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox On that I heartily agree. In the meantime I have been very successful at avoiding IFR conditions. Noel Do not archive > > At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent > plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive > encounters with instrument conditions. > > Mike G. > N728KF > Phoenix, AZ > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox From: Rexinator I just thought I'd add my 1 cent comment. I too once upon a time passed my Instrument rating check ride. I'm sure I'd need plenty of training to regain the required skills again to safely fly IFR. I remember practicing with the hood and found it hard not to notice the sunlight cues that helped keep me straight before I had really learned to really fly by just instrument scan. The point made by attempting to fly only by "the seat of your pants" (blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the instruments. Partial panel exercises show you how to manage with some instrument failures and incorporate cues from other instruments not normally relied on for atitude indication. (engine rpm for instance) Yes there are clues outside the windows that can help in unintended IFR flight as well as the indications the airplane gives. Sounds, feel, and instruments. They all should be understood and safely practiced. To me the wonderful thing about flying is learning to use so many aspects, physical, technical, mental and emotional in just the right way that can make a successful flight so rewarding. I eventually learned to enjoy the challenge to practice and perfect any mundane aspect of flying. Keep learning and practicing. Rex do not archive Michael Gibbs wrote: > > Noel sez: > >> A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old >> instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the >> best way >> to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude >> of the >> plane through feelings in your bum. That is what I did. > > > Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any instrument > instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a situation where your > derriere is quite satisfied that you are straight and level when, in > fact, you are in dire straights. The infamous "death spiral" can > easily be achieved with 1g straight into your seat and, without some > indication of the problem, will feel just fine right until you impact > the earth. > > At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent > plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive > encounters with instrument conditions. > > Mike G. > N728KF > Phoenix, AZ -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:29 PM PST US From: "clemwehner" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: IFR in a kitfox I recall an experience that drove home the point about not trusting your "seat". I was a young USAF instructor in T-38's. My student and I were flying as the wingman of a two ship formation in heavy IMC making a turn onto the ILS final headed for a 2-ship landing at Sheppard AFB, TX. As wingman we were flying completely by visual reference to the leader just a few feet away (we maintained 3-foot wingtip spacing in T-38 formation). As we turned left onto final my seat told me we were making a left turn. But my student, who was on the controls in the front seat, swore we were turning right and kept saying we were turning the wrong direction onto final. To each of us the sensations were exceptionally real and we both had no doubt the direction we each thought we were turning. The interesting part is that the turning sensation continued long after my instruments showed me that lead had rolled us out of the turn and had us well established wings level on the ILS final. Our seats said were were still turning--in both directions at once! Fortunately, I was a well-trained USAF instrument pilot and knew to rely on the instruments, but the seat sensations were almost overwhelmingly convincing. Anyone lesser trained could have fallen victim to the misleading sensations so easily. My student learned a great lesson that day and it solidified my knowledge forever. Clem Wehner Lawton, OK "The point made by attempting to fly only by "the seat of your pants" (blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the instruments. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.