---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/27/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:02 AM - [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:18 AM - Re: Rotax 582 & Oil% (dave) 2. 05:20 AM - Re: Short take off Video (dave) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 582 & Oil% (Michel Verheughe) 4. 07:20 AM - access cover for oil (jerry evans) 5. 09:32 AM - Rotax 582 & Oil% (Larry Martin) 6. 11:40 AM - Re: access cover for oil (Rexinator) 7. 01:53 PM - Re: access cover for oil (Lynn Matteson) 8. 03:02 PM - Re: access cover for oil (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 9. 03:05 PM - taxy with the wings folded (vetdrem) 10. 04:06 PM - Re: access cover for oil (Noel R. C. Loveys) 11. 04:17 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (Noel R. C. Loveys) 12. 05:04 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded () 13. 05:13 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (LarryM) 14. 05:36 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (Tom Jones) 15. 05:50 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (Ted Palamarek) 16. 08:46 PM - Re: access cover for oil (Guy Buchanan) 17. 08:46 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (Guy Buchanan) 18. 09:20 PM - Re: taxy with the wings folded (Michael Gibbs) 19. 11:45 PM - Re: Re: taxy with the wings folded (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:56 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? Dear Listers, Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in the information technology industry for nearly 25 years primarily in computer networking design and implementation. I have also done extensive work in web development and CGI design during that time, along with some embedded system development as well. I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since that time, I have added 63 other kinds of aircraft related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such as the Forums, Wiki, Archives and Search Engine just to name a few. For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here locally. Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter, a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial-grade business T1 Internet connection with full static addressing. 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Won't you please take a moment to make a Contribution to support these Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 USA (Please include your email address on the check!) There are some great gifts available with qualifying Contribution levels too! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:05 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax 582 & Oil% From: "dave" > I immediately reduced power, went into a gently dive and made a emergency landing on my airfield. During descent, I saw the water temp > becoming normal (85C). > > It was obvious that the temp was a direct result of too much tape over the radiator. But was caused the engine to cough ? Was it the high temperature ? Is it the oil mixture ? > > Somebody can help me ? > > Greetz, > Michel > > Normal temps are not 85C - that Is getting into the "caution area" of a 582 ( 80C to 90C - 176 to 200F ) You can run at 180 without issues but it leave little room for error. You were running at 240 F (115C ) WAY TOO HOT........ 70% of RAD covered? I would rather see 70% of Rad open on a stock Kitfox Rad...... ( 4" b y 20" = 80 sq inches) Why you smell molten plastic ? Did you find anything melted ? Likely not but that Engine was telling to it was VERY HOT. You never said was your outside air temp was ? You never said what kind of oil you used ? Mixture on Pre mix should be 50 to 1 = 2% Oil injected engines will run leaner than that over all - BUT they supply oil with demand .. eg full throttle = about 50 to 1 mix but at reduced throttle you might run 70 to 1........ If you try to skimp on oil ratio then it is possible you will not have enough oil under full throttle and high load conditions. I would run some static ground run ups prior to next flight of duration of 2 to 5 minutes at full throttle to make sure you have similar to full load climbout engine checks. Depending on Prop your static can range from 6000 to 6500. Where were your EGT gauges through alll of this ? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148832#148832 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:51 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short take off Video From: "dave" Michel - yes it works well. I am thinking of making a new landing gear similar to the tube gear but extended about 6 to 10" . Would make the Kitfox look a little more aggressive and likely get it airbourne quicker. My wings will fly and the tail will be dragging. One concern is the extra load put on the longerons with a longer gear. Has anyone tried this? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148833#148833 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:13 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax 582 & Oil% Michel, I would also check the thermostat. I flew behind a 582 for a couple of years and I know that the thermostat is easy to access, remove, and test in a bucket of hot water. See if it opens. Good luck. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:39 AM PST US From: jerry evans Subject: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the fiberglass for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this would be for 582 oil injector tank Jerry Evans 96% done 582 Magalia Calif. N582'er' kitfox 555 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:07 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 & Oil% Michel, Could it be possible that your water temp was not warmed up (150F ish)( 10 min or so) before you applied power? I'm wondering if you had a cold seizure where the piston expands quicker than the cylinder and thus tolerances are reduced. It is important to get the water temp warm and then let the engine run for several minutes before applying high power. I personally preheat my water by using a Ski Doo inline water heater. I find after an hour or so, the water temp is 80+F. I also use a 160F thermostat for the winter and switch back to the Rotax 135F one for the summer. The part I use for the winter is "Thermostat 3853799 Bombardier Evinrude Johnson". I no longer tape up the radiator, as this thermostat will keep temps 160-175F with the rads open. Operating as I do, the engine starts very easy and idles at 2000 rpm nicely. By the time I taxi to the end of the strip, the water temp is at 160, with the thermostat open, and away I go. With the inline heater, the engine is uniformly warm, and the temps raises the rest of the way quite nicely. The other nice feature is cabin heat is warmer! I do not understand why one would dilute the oil in the winter. It is mixed as a percentage and should then burn as a percentage too? If anything, with the dense air, wouldn't an engine develop more hp and power and therefore need a bit more? I think that it would be quite safe to follow the Rotax "air" engine recommendations. I think that they may be a bit conservative, but then what is the negative consequence of being conservative? A biker or cart racer can optimize an engine for the time, and day, but the weather conditions are more constant for that racer. On the other hand, how many times do you start in the morning, and by afternoon, it is 20 degrees warmer? I think that is why the "air" engines are jetted cooler than normal and so on. We trade efficiency for "margin of operations". I would check for piston scoring by removing the exhaust manifold and checking with a flashlight. The cold temps will drastically affect the rpm too, as the air is heavier and the engine works more to achieve that rpm. I believe that we still develop full hp. due to a lower density altitude as these cold temps. I had been concerned about the daily differences when I started with a 2 stroke. In that first year or two, I journalized all my engine parameters, temps, etc so I could see what/when was happening. I can now predict the engine parameters that I expect to see at a given outside temperature and pressure. I hope this helps, and your engine did not incur damage. larry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil From: Rexinator I have one that was installed my model 2, I think it once was an option from Skystar so not available that way. Perhaps John McBean can advise. Mine is nothing more than a standard access door from some manufacturer that came with instuctions on how to cut out the cowling and install. It's flat and does not match the curve of the cowl, but it works well. If you could find a source for a suitable door it wouldn't be too hard to figure out the installation. I'd be happy to take pictures of mine and copy the instructions when I get home Sunday. Meanwhile, I found this for a Rans. Looks like it could work and it's very reasonably priced. http://www.shoprans.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KPCW0026 -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs jerry evans wrote: > Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the fiberglass > for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this would be for 582 > oil injector tank > > Jerry Evans > 96% done 582 > Magalia Calif. > N582'er' > kitfox 555 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:05 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil After two attempts to get an oil access door for my Skyfox cowl for my Kitfox, (one didn't fit and the other was a warped piece of fiberglass) I ended up laying up one of my own. I taped down Saran Wrap over an area of the cowl on the mirror side of the oil access opening, then layers of glass matt, soaked with resin, etc., then topping the whole pile with another piece of Saran Wrap to provide as smooth a surface as possible. This way the curvature of the door nearly matches the contour of the cowl. The cowl already had the recessed opening to accept the door that I made. If you don't already have the recess, you can cut an opening to suit yourself, then fiberglass a recessed lip under that area, and possibly use the cut- out piece as the door. There will of course be some finishing required to make a nice fit and smooth surface. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs > jerry evans wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the >> fiberglass for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this >> would be for 582 oil injector tank >> >> Jerry Evans >> 96% done 582 >> Magalia Calif. >> N582'er' >> kitfox 555 > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:40 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil My Avid cowl for the Jabiru engine came with the opening and recessed lip, but no door. I cut out a piece of .060 aluminum that fit the opening plus s I left two tabs that went into two slots on the front edge of the reccess lip (the tabs have a bit of a S bend in them) on the back end of the doo r, I put one camlock to hold it in place. It works for me. If you want it to be out of fiberglass, I would very carefully cut it out about 1/2" bigg er both ways than you want. Then put some plastic tape on the back side o f the door (the new fiberglass wont stick to the plastic tape) and tape it back in place from the top of the cowl. Now you can make a lip out of fibe rglass resin and cloth that will match the door exactly. Once the fibergla ss sets you can pop the door off and fasten it how you like. Hope that mad e sence and you were able to follow me through that. Kitfox-List: access cover for oilTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the fiberglass for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this would be for 582 oil injector tank Jerry Evans 96% done 582 Magalia Calif. N582'er' kitfox 555 _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.- Join i n. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded From: "vetdrem" I sure hope that this isn't viewed as a REALLY stupid question, but, here goes. Can a Kitfox be taxied with the wings folded? It sure would make the trip from my hanger to the runway a lot easier. I don't know if the differential braking would snap the tail wheel out of the detents and allow turns or not. Please be kink, I'm sensitive. :) vetdrem Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148939#148939 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:50 PM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil I'm not too sure what the Kitfox cowls are made from now but for cutting Kevlar I found the best thing to use was a high speed spin saw. The bit can be very thin and the opening made around the door can be very thin also. The spin saw also allows you to make curved corners on the door. Rounding the corners will reduce the possibility of causing the cowl to crack through the corners of the door opening. Rivet the hinge for the door in place then you can tape around the edge of the door or use cling wrap to the bottom of the door. With the door held in place you can go ahead and glass the lip to the bottom side of the cowl. One of the nice things about doing this is the lip you glass in actually reinforces the cowl around the access door. Finish the job by mounting a Camloc or Dzus fastener to hold the door closed. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:19 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil > > > After two attempts to get an oil access door for my Skyfox cowl for > my Kitfox, (one didn't fit and the other was a warped piece of > fiberglass) I ended up laying up one of my own. I taped down Saran > Wrap over an area of the cowl on the mirror side of the oil access > opening, then layers of glass matt, soaked with resin, etc., then > topping the whole pile with another piece of Saran Wrap to provide as > smooth a surface as possible. This way the curvature of the door > nearly matches the contour of the cowl. The cowl already had the > recessed opening to accept the door that I made. If you don't already > have the recess, you can cut an opening to suit yourself, then > fiberglass a recessed lip under that area, and possibly use the cut- > out piece as the door. There will of course be some finishing > required to make a nice fit and smooth surface. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/440+ hrs > > > jerry evans wrote: > > > >> Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the > >> fiberglass for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this > >> would be for 582 oil injector tank > >> > >> Jerry Evans > >> 96% done 582 > >> Magalia Calif. > >> N582'er' > >> kitfox 555 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:47 PM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded With the extra weight on the tail wheel I personally wouldn't try it. Also if the tail spring breaks you will also lose your wings. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vetdrem > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:35 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded > > > I sure hope that this isn't viewed as a REALLY stupid question, but, here goes. > > Can a Kitfox be taxied with the wings folded? It sure would make the trip from my > hanger to the runway a lot easier. I don't know if the differential braking would snap > the tail wheel out of the detents and allow turns or not. > > Please be kink, I'm sensitive. :) > > vetdrem > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148939#148939 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:41 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded I find this message disturbing. Kitfox. <> <> DO NOT ARCHIVE John Sandt, Ridgecrest ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:58 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: taxy with the wings folded From: "LarryM" I concur with Noel. Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148964#148964 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: taxy with the wings folded From: "Tom Jones" Vetdrem, I'll be kind, When I think about taxing with the wings folded all kinds of reasons not to come to mind. The weight on the tail spring is a major deterrent. I take it that between your hangar and the runway there are obstructions to spreading the wings? I would invest in a four wheel motorcycle, an old pickup, riding lawnmower, utility trailer, anything I could set the tail wheel on with the wings folded and tow it out there. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148975#148975 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:37 PM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded John I think what the writer probably meant was ""please be kind I'm sensitive"" meaning that don't flame me as I'm just asking a question that some may perceive to be a silly. DO NOT ARCHIVE Hope that helps. Ted Palamarek Kitfox IV - 912 Edmonton, Ab -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josandt@verizon.net Sent: November 27, 2007 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded I find this message disturbing. Kitfox. <> <> DO NOT ARCHIVE John Sandt, Ridgecrest ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:51 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: access cover for oil At 07:19 AM 11/27/2007, you wrote: > Can anyone tell me how to make access hole through the fiberglass > for the oil or where I can buy one to install, this would be for > 582 oil injector tank Jerry, It sounds like you got all of the possibilities. Mine was cut out of the cowl, hinged, and an aluminum lip bonded and riveted to the inside. Once you cut out the door, clean up it's edge. Install the aluminum or glass lip below the door and clean up it's edges. Then wrap the edge of the door with a couple layers of narrowly cut flash tape and center the door in the opening. Tape the back side with duct tape. Then fill the cut-out with a resin/micro mixture. Pull the door, remove the tape, and re-install. Sand the resin/micro flush and you'll have a nice seam. Attach the door with a short piano hinge and use a Cessna oil door latch to latch it. (I tried finding the latch at ACS and via Google and had no luck. I'm sure it's available after-market. I found a bunch of Cessna parts at www.broadiesaircraft.com.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:51 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded At 03:05 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote: >I sure hope that this isn't viewed as a REALLY stupid question, but, >here goes. > >Can a Kitfox be taxied with the wings folded? It sure would make >the trip from my hanger to the runway a lot easier. I don't know if >the differential braking would snap the tail wheel out of the >detents and allow turns or not. OMIGAWD, that is the STUPIDEST question I ever heard! I CAN'T believe you asked it. ;-) (We entertain all questions here, even ones you may think are stupid. And we frequently give stupid answers. By the way, I actually didn't think it was a very stupid question. You'll have to try a lot harder.) Of course a Kitfox can be taxied with the wings folded.You'll only be able to go straight ahead, and you'll want to be exceedingly careful because of the excessive load on the tailwheel, wings, and fuselage, but it will taxi just fine. (It won't turn because the flaperons lie next to the rudder, preventing it, and subsequently the tail wheel, from turning. You could rig the wings to fold partially to a position that would allow the rudder full travel and you'd be able to turn. You'd then just have to deal with the loads issue.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:27 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: taxy with the wings folded Guys sez: >Of course a Kitfox can be taxied with the wings folded.You'll only >be able to go straight ahead, and you'll want to be exceedingly >careful because of the excessive load on the tailwheel, wings, and >fuselage, but it will taxi just fine. I have to respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague. I think trying to taxi a Kitfox with the wings folded is a really, really bad idea. It seems like a sure-fire way to damage the tail wheel assembly, at least, and likely the entire airplane since you won't be able to steer. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:55 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: taxy with the wings folded On Nov 28, 2007, at 2:35 AM, Tom Jones wrote: > I take it that between your hangar and the runway there are > obstructions to spreading the wings? I would invest in a four wheel > motorcycle, an old pickup, riding lawnmower, utility trailer, anything > I could set the tail wheel on with the wings folded and tow it out > there. I was once considering folding my wings, not to taxi but to get easier in the hangar. I thought that the best way to manoeuvre the plane would then be by building a tail dolly. Imagine a pyramid upside-down, built in steel or even wood. On the 'top' a free-castoring wheel. On the 'base' two holes in which I put a long bolt that goes in the tube used for an eventual dorsal fin (at least, on my model 3 - don't know about other models). The rest of the 'base' is padded to receive the fuselage. To put on the dolly, I fix the bolt then lift the tail and the 'pyramid' goes in an upside-down position. The advantages are: It is easier to fold the wings when the plane is level; less weight pulling the wings backward. It is then probably possible to fold and unfold the wings alone. Next, you don't have to remove the fuel that may leak from having the wing folded. If one has to taxi that one, one should also consider putting a stopper on the pedals so that no pressure is put on the rudder while one is still able to 'steer' by differential braking. Just a thought. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.