---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/02/07: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Big Super Sport Builders (rjhpilot91) 2. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Noel R. C. Loveys) 3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Noel R. C. Loveys) 4. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? (Zimmermans) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Roger McConnell) 7. 07:15 AM - Re: 8 inch wheels (Jose M. Toro) 8. 07:22 AM - Re: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? (Jose M. Toro) 9. 07:47 AM - Re: Big Super Sport Builders (Steven Didier) 10. 07:48 AM - Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II (Jose M. Toro) 11. 07:54 AM - Re: Big Super Sport Builders (Randy Daughenbaugh) 12. 08:01 AM - Re: Big Super Sport Builders (rjhpilot91) 13. 09:01 AM - Door Frames (jeff puls) 14. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Michael Gibbs) 15. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Michael Gibbs) 16. 09:23 AM - Left Rudder on Kitfox II (Dee Young) 17. 09:24 AM - Re: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II (Michel Verheughe) 18. 09:36 AM - Re: Left Rudder on Kitfox II (Michael Gibbs) 19. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (clemwehner) 20. 10:41 AM - Re: Left Rudder on Kitfox II (Michel Verheughe) 21. 11:37 AM - Re: Left Rudder on Kitfox II (Dee Young) 22. 11:51 AM - Re: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II (Lynn Matteson) 23. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Sbennett3@aol.com) 24. 03:40 PM - Re: 8 inch wheels (LarryM) 25. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (clemwehner) 26. 04:09 PM - Re: Carb Heat (kitfoxmike) 27. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Dave G.) 28. 04:47 PM - Coolant Hose? (RAY Gignac) 29. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Carb Heat (Lowell Fitt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:28 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Big Super Sport Builders From: "rjhpilot91" I'm getting ready to purchase and build the new super sport and I was just wondering how many big guys fit comfortably in this plane? I'm 6'4" and I don't see much room to stretch the cabin. How tight is the kitfox cabin for tall people. I saw the Super Sport review in Kitplanes from this year and Mr McBean seems to be around six footish and appears to fit comfortably. Any help? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150005#150005 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:33 AM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat Dave, exactly where are you? As you know, two things are required to make ice, cold temperatures and water. If you remove either one then ice cannot form. Venturi effect will automatically produce some refrigeration effect in the throat of the carburettor. The throat temps can be surprisingly low, given the right conditions even at temperatures well above freezing. All this is covered in everyone's flight training. What I'm getting at is if you are high up in the mountains than you probably also have a very dry climate and you may not get ice especially on the coldest days. Where I live, a few hundred miles away from the world's biggest fog factory, The Grand Banks, ice is always a consideration. Temperatures may not be as low as yours but 90+% moisture can more than make up for that on days where the temperature is anything below 60F. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G. > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:51 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat > > > I wouldn't be quick to dismiss you idea, on the other hand I doubt if it > makes much difference. First the carb body is not aluminum as far as I know. > I believe it's a zinc type pot metal alloy. The second issue is that in a > very breezy environment I don't think that your wire would effectively > transfer much heat unless there is a lot of surface contact. It might be > worth getting a carb temp guage and seeing how effective your setup is. > > I live right where the US gov't comes to test their aircraft in icing > conditions, and I know a couple of guys who are using 912's without carb > heat. That might be a bad idea, I just don't know. I'd like the option of > heat if it was me, but I think the carb heaters that bolt right into the > body might be a better idea. > > Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LarryM" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:21 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat > > > > > > Wingnunt, > > > > I didn't want to go through the hassle of making a carb heat muff, box, > > control etc. This is A kind of do it and for get about it. I always > > leave it on as there is no performance loss. It's designed to keep the > > carb above freezing even when considering the evaporation due the venturi. > > After a few years, I have had no icing problems. The 15W light bulb taped > > to the side of the carb work real good too. > > > > I don't think that any carb is immune from carb ice. I had a car that > > always iced up on me. (British no less - I can imagine how it performed > > over there with all those days of good carb ice weather) I had to build > > a heat muff directed on the carb. The throttle body on my injected VW van > > would ice up as well. The throttle body manufacture had made a system to > > allow hot water to circulate around it. No body knew it at the time what > > it was for. I finally figured it out after a few times of getting stuck > > due to ice. It was an imported VW engine from South Africa made for their > > market and had no use for the anti - ice system, therefor the instructions > > ignored it and the barbs where plugged) > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149863#149863 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:19 AM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat If you are using a turbo charger then the possibility of ice is extremely low. The turbo removes the low pressure area that normally ices up. However you should be aware of impact ice. This is ice that can form on the air screen in the front of the cowling and cut off air to the engine. That is of course an IMC. If you are flying into IMC then an alternate intake port which is not filtered and only opens when the main air feed is blocked, would be a good idea. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:01 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat > > > John, > > Yes, you are right. I got looking at it and the air from the turbo will take care of any ice > I may have. In fact, I am going to install an intercooler in the induction line to cool the > air a bit...don't know what I was thinking when I made the previous post. According to > the Europa flyers, the intercooler increases the power of the engine slightly and is better > on the engine. > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (under Construction) > 914 Turbo > Ogden, Utah > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149968#149968 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:13 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat John Oakley raises a point that has been hashed over before. The carb heat box out in the cold brings in cold air. Operating without the carb heat box the carburetors are always in a "carb heat condition", high up in the motor compartment out of direct air flow, just like on the RV line, pulling heated air from the engine compartment. It has been suggested that the only 912 flyers that have experienced carb ice are sucking in cold air. Has anyone experienced carb ice on a 912 pulling air from the engine compartment? John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- From: "john oakley" > > Darin, > I have the carb box that was a stock system on the model 4. I have had ice > twice, both times in a bad place. I have several friends that fly rans and > they have had ice also. On the 914 you get the air after the turbo if I > remember right and it will take care of any problems. > > john > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:03 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat > > > John, > > I never had any problems with ice on my 912 but would never rule it out. I > have read many posts from 912 owners that think that ice is a non-issue as > the air intakes are higher in the cowl and should have adequate heat to > prevent icing, but I am not so sure. With my 914, the setup is different, > there is a single intake and it is located in the radiator scoop on the > bottom of the cowl so I will be getting cold, moist air straight to my > carbs. As you know, here in Utah we have a pretty dry climate but there are > a few days a year that are conducive to carb ice. What are you using for > carb heat? > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (under Construction) > 914 Turbo > Ogden, Utah > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149868#149868 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

John Oakley raises a point that has been hashed over before.  The carb heat box out in the cold brings in cold air.  Operating without the carb heat box the carburetors are always in a "carb heat condition", high up in the motor compartment out of direct air flow, just like on the RV line, pulling heated air from the engine compartment.  It has been suggested that the only 912 flyers that have experienced carb ice are sucking in cold air.  Has anyone experienced carb ice on a 912 pulling air from the engine compartment?

 

John Kerr

 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "john oakley" <john@leptron.com>

> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john oakley"
>
> Darin,
> I have the carb box that was a stock system on the model 4. I have had ice
> twice, both times in a bad place. I have several friends that fly rans and
> they have had ice also. On the 914 you get the air after the turbo if I
> remember right and it will take care of any problems.
>
> john
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:03 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat
>
> --> Kitfox-L ist me ssage posted by: "darinh"
>
> John,
>
> I never had any problems with ice on my 912 but would never rule it out. I
> have read many posts from 912 owners that think that ice is a non-issue as
> the air intakes are higher in the cowl and should have adequate heat to
> prevent icing, but I am not so sure. With my 914, the setup is different,
> there is a single intake and it is located in the radiator scoop on the
> bottom of the cowl so I will be getting cold, moist air straight to my
> carbs. As you know, here in Utah we have a pretty dry climate but there are
> a few days a year that are conducive to carb ice. What are you using for
> carb heat?
>
> --------
> Darin Hawkes
> Series 7 (under Construction)
> 914 Turbo
> Ogden, Utah
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://fo rums.m -= the
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:29 AM PST US From: "Zimmermans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? I believe the original question asked about experimental aircraft instruments. The piece I sent from Joe Norris at EAA applied to experimental, homebuilt aircraft. There may be other rules covering E-LSA and LSA. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zimmermans To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? Here is the question I asked EAA and there response. Jim Zimmerman Series 5 0-200 Building Hello, FAR 91.205 lists the instruments required for vfr flight of an aircraft that has a standard category airworthiness certificate. Where do I find the requirements for an experimental armature built aircraft? (homebuilt Kitfox) Same thing? Thank you. For a day VFR experimental aircraft, there are no minimum requirements. You are welcome to use 91.205 as a guide, but you are not required to abide by it. However, if you plan to make the aircraft legal to operate at night (or under IFR, which probably wouldn't be the case with a Kitfox), you will be required by the aircraft's operating limitations to equip in accordance with 91.205. But again, for day VFR flying there is no minimum equipment requirement for an experimental amateur-built or ELSA aircraft. Joe Norris EAA Aviation Services EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI 888-322-4636, extension 6806 jnorris@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: SUE MICHAELS To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? I had a list but you know how the little gremlins hide stuff from you when your working on your dream. href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Release Date: 11/27/2007 11:40 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 11/27/2007 11:40 AM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:59 AM PST US From: "Roger McConnell" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat Vic, I have the same set up as you. The alternate intake is probable for carb heat but in yours and my setup it is not needed and here's my take on that. That induction plenum is located in an area of the engine compartment where engine heat is going to be at its highest. It's my belief that plenum chamber will warm the incoming air sufficiently to prevent any icing problems. Heck the carbs them selves are right behind the cylinders where air is blown across the cooling fins. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be highly unlikely for carb icing to form. Now that being said, if I did a lot of flying in a climate at or below freezing I would tend toward the cautious side and install some sort of carb heat and cabin heat sense I don't have neither. For the most part I'm a fair weather flyer and won't even roll my plane out of the hanger if it is colder than 50 degrees. I think everyone has to decide for themselves if carb heat is needed based on under what conditions they plan to fly in. Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls Flying sense Jan. 06 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic Baker Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat Ok guys, I've got a Model 7 here about ready to go, got the induction plenum installed behind the carbs with the feed being cold air from the lower cowl intake scoop which directs air across the radiator. There is an alternate air intake on the plenum which the instructions call for safety wiring closed. Seems like an ideal setup for carb icing. Any suggestions out there? Vic Vic Baker S7 912S Warp 95% Carson City, Nv ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:52 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 8 inch wheels Chris: An alternative is to keep the same wheels, and switch to higher diameter tires for the 6 inches wheel. You could use a 20 inches tall tire or even higher if desired. Jos Toro ex Kitfox II/582 ----- Original Message ---- From: Lowell Fitt Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 2:05:35 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 8 inch wheels Chris, I believe Matco now has 8" wheels. Contact them. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Southern Skies" Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 8 inch wheels > > > New to this list, please excuse if topic came up before. > > I have the 6 inch Matco Wheels/Brakes on my model 3 and also have a set of > new "Tundra" 8 inch ATV tires (slick, big and fat). > > I would like to switch to these big fat tires since my field is very > rough. > > Obviously, 8 inch wheels won't fit on the 6 inch Matco wheels, so my > question is: What wheels do I need to get and what else do I need to > change, if any? > Will my existing brakes work? > > I heard something about ATV wheels but I don't have a clue as to what > exact model to look at and how to make it work with my existing landing > gear/axle/brakes (have the Grove Aluminum Gear). > > Thanks for any advice. > > Chris > > > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:47 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements?? Congratulations Steve!=0A=0AJos=E9=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFr om: "Sbennett3@aol.com" =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 9:02:12 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Minimum VFR flight instrument requirements??=0A=0A=0AIf you are a sport pil ot you need compass, volt meter,tach,asi,atimeter,elt,oil pressure,oil tem p,water temp,fuel guage,compass,strobe lights. I just had a checkride yeste rday and that was one of the questions... Oh ya, I took it in my kitfox, a nce's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.=0A=0A=0A_ -======================== ===============0A=0A=0A __________________ __________________________________________________________________=0AGet ea sy, one-click access to your favorites. =0AMake Yahoo! your homepage.=0Ahtt p://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:06 AM PST US From: Steven Didier Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Big Super Sport Builders I am 6' and 240# and a friend of mine is 6'2" and 230# both of fit just fine with John McBean in the right seat. Plenty of room on all directions in the SuperSport. Steve D On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:25 AM, rjhpilot91 wrote: > > I'm getting ready to purchase and build the new super sport and I > was just wondering how many big guys fit comfortably in this plane? > I'm 6'4" and I don't see much room to stretch the cabin. How tight > is the kitfox cabin for tall people. > > I saw the Super Sport review in Kitplanes from this year and Mr > McBean seems to be around six footish and appears to fit > comfortably. Any help? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150005#150005 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:24 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II Hi All: I have been flying a Kitfox II for ten years. It has a 582. It requires plenty of left rudder during takeoff roll, and considerable left rudder during cruising. Since that is the only Kitfox that I have ever flown, I have always considered that normal (I used to fly a Cessna T-41 that required considerable right rudder during cruise). The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during cruise. Is it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II? This airplane once had a nose over (before I bought it), and the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer is not perfectly aligned to the fuselage, it is slightly directed toward the left wing. I don't know if this alignment is normal on the Kitfox II, or was an inadequate fix after the nose over. All that being said, I still think that the plane flies wonderfully. Jos Toro ex Kitfox II/582 Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:05 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Big Super Sport Builders I am 6'5" and 200 lbs. I fit in the 5,6,7, Super Sport, but not in the model 4. My wife made a custom seat cushion for me with nearly no cushion toward the back under my butt or back, but with a lot at the front of the seat for thigh support. I used to worry about bouncing up and hitting my head in turbulence, but I have been in some pretty good stuff and it hasn't happened yet. I have had some pretty big passengers and elbow room is tight. The bubble doors would help a lot for this. Randy Daughenbaugh, N10NH Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore Home Strip, Grass Room in Hangar for visitors Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rjhpilot91 Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:26 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Big Super Sport Builders I'm getting ready to purchase and build the new super sport and I was just wondering how many big guys fit comfortably in this plane? I'm 6'4" and I don't see much room to stretch the cabin. How tight is the kitfox cabin for tall people. I saw the Super Sport review in Kitplanes from this year and Mr McBean seems to be around six footish and appears to fit comfortably. Any help? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150005#150005 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:51 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Big Super Sport Builders From: "rjhpilot91" Thanks a lot for the help fellas. It seems that I'll probably fit no problem at all. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150035#150035 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:41 AM PST US From: "jeff puls" Subject: Kitfox-List: Door Frames Anyone have any Classic IV or 4-1200 door frames for sale? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:30 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat Roger sez: >For the most part I'm a fair weather flyer and won't even roll my >plane out of the hanger if it is colder than 50 degrees. Keep in mind that carb ice can form in ambient temperatures as high as 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:31 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat Noel sez: >Dave, exactly where are you?...What I'm getting at is if you are >high up in the mountains than you probably also have a very dry >climate and you may not get ice... It seems to me that you build for where you plan to go, not where you are now. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:46 AM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on Kitfox II I fly a model II also and it requires left rudder to compensate for P-factor on roll out and a very slight amount of left rudder in straight and level flight. I have always believed this was what others referred to as adverse yaw. I am sure if that comment is incorrect there will be a dozen guys jump all over this one quick. Dee Young Model II N345DY KFM-112 Powered. Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:41 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote: > The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other > experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during cruise. Is > it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II? I was cruising the 582 with a foot slightly on the left pedal, Jos. Now, with the Jabiru, I fly with a foot slightly on the right pedal. I guess you'll need some pedal correction with any single engine aircraft unless you had a fixed rudder tab. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:41 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on Kitfox II Dee sez: >I fly a model II also and it requires left rudder to compensate >for P-factor on roll out and a very slight amount of left rudder in >straight and level flight. I have always believed this was what >others referred to as adverse yaw. I am sure if that comment is >incorrect there will be a dozen guys jump all over this one quick. OK, I'll jump! :-) Adverse yaw is what happens when you use aileron (or flaperon!) to roll into a turn and the outboard (high) wing's drag is greater than the inboard (low) wing, which causes the nose to try to move in the opposite direction of the turn. This has nothing to do with P-factor or engine torque. A small ground-adjustable tab on the rudder is simple to make and can take care of any need for rudder pressure when straight and level. You'll still have to use rudder for takeoff/climb and in descents and, of course, when turning due to the adverse yaw. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:18 AM PST US From: "clemwehner" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat I can confirm Mike's comment. I have a LOT of experience with carb ice--in my old Dodge van. I had a 1986 Dodge Caravan that was plaqued with carb ice every spring and fall, when temps were in the 50's and low 60's. The carb would ice up so bad that the van would slow down to 20 MPH max. The solution was during those seasons, to remove the air ducting from the carb to the front of the vehicle, and let the carb suck air through the air filter from inside the engine compartment. This is just like we've been talking about the 912 getting carb ice when a de-ice duct is pulling air from the front and less (or no) carb ice when the air is sucked through the air filters inside the engine compartment. My old van never got carb ice when it was really cold outside like down in the 30's or less. Clem Wehner Lawton, OK KF-IV-912 -----Original Message----- Keep in mind that carb ice can form in ambient temperatures as high as 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:52 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on Kitfox II On Dec 2, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Dee Young wrote: > I have always believed this was what others referred to asadverse yaw. There must be a difference, Dee, otherwise how could glider pilots experience adverse yaw? My understanding is that the latter comes from the fact that the downward aileron offers greater drag than the upward one, thus inducing a yaw moment in the opposite direction of the desired turn. Adverse yaw is counterbalanced by asymmetrical ailerons, which is something my model 3 doesn't have. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:15 AM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on Kitfox II Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Gibbs To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on Kitfox II > Dee sez: >I fly a model II also and it requires left rudder to compensate >for P-factor on roll out and a very slight amount of left rudder in >straight and level flight. I have always believed this was what >others referred to as adverse yaw. I am sure if that comment is >incorrect there will be a dozen guys jump all over this one quick. OK, I'll jump! :-) Adverse yaw is what happens when you use aileron (or flaperon!) to roll into a turn and the outboard (high) wing's drag is greater than the inboard (low) wing, which causes the nose to try to move in the opposite direction of the turn. This has nothing to do with P-factor or engine torque. A small ground-adjustable tab on the rudder is simple to make and can take care of any need for rudder pressure when straight and level. You'll still have to use rudder for takeoff/climb and in descents and, of course, when turning due to the adverse yaw. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:34 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II I put a fixed rudder tab on my Jab-powered 'fox, and it still requires a tiny bit of left rudder pressure, which means that some slight adjustment will be required to compensate. And that would be at only one particular airspeed, as I see it. Before I installed it, much more rudder was needed. It seems to me that it's probably a combo of airspeed, prop pitch, and a few other factors that all have to align before a fixed tab would result in a "foot off" flying experience. I'm still thinking about a cabin-adjustable tab that I could build without resorting to cutting and welding the rudder, or disturbing the fabric and paint. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs On Dec 2, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote: >> The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other >> experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during >> cruise. Is it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II? > > I was cruising the 582 with a foot slightly on the left pedal, > Jos. Now, with the Jabiru, I fly with a foot slightly on the right > pedal. I guess you'll need some pedal correction with any single > engine aircraft unless you had a fixed rudder tab. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:46 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat I flew 2 hrs today. Complete overcast. Rain and drizzle the entire flight. Ceiling at 2000 to 2500. Outside air temp at take off was 43f. I have breathers on the firewall, no carb heat. Good solid flight. Location NC, take off airport 351 msl. Destination airport 126 msl. Steve Bennett **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:21 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 8 inch wheels From: "LarryM" Which tires and how high can you put on the 6"? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150097#150097 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:09 PM PST US From: "clemwehner" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat I can confirm Mike's comment. I have a LOT of experience with carb ice--in my old Dodge van. I had a 1986 Dodge Caravan that was plaqued with carb ice every spring and fall, when temps were in the 50's and low 60's. The carb would ice up so bad that the van would slow down to 20 MPH max. The solution was during those seasons, to remove the air ducting from the carb to the front of the vehicle, and let the carb suck air through the air filter from inside the engine compartment. This is just like we've been talking about the 912 getting carb ice when a de-ice duct is pulling air from the front and less (or no) carb ice when the air is sucked through the air filters inside the engine compartment. My old van never got carb ice when it was really cold outside like down in the 30's or less. Clem Wehner Lawton, OK KF-IV-912 -----Original Message----- Keep in mind that carb ice can form in ambient temperatures as high as 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat From: "kitfoxmike" I flew yesterday for 30min. The weather was bad. Ceiling was about 4000 with field elevation at 2000. Temp was 24. 15 minutes later the ceiling was down to 3000 vis. was getting close to 7 miles. did a few more touches and then noticed that everything went to heck, with snow flurries hitting the window. Landed and looked around and felt the ceiling was down to about 900 off the ground. About 5 minutes later it was snowing big time. way below mins. I don't have carb heat. Was I taking a change with vis. no way, that's why I was in close traffic and doing touch and go's. I also kept an eye on the weather. I feel carb heat is a bigger issue if you let it idle too much, so keep the speed up. Plus with the Rotax you have higher rpm's with slower blade speed, that helps also. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150101#150101 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:42 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat I live in Halifax Average humidity ~70-80% average temp for much of the year 10-20 deg C. Here's a handy carb icing chart http://ibis.experimentals.de/images/carbicingfromcaassl14.gif The U.S. Navy tested their Osprey here quite a bit but I don't think carb icing was what they were looking for. It's an impressive device in any case, but I wonder how useful. Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582 do not archive >>>Dave, exactly where are you?... > It seems to me that you build for where you plan to go, not where you are > now. > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:33 PM PST US From: RAY Gignac Subject: Kitfox-List: Coolant Hose? If anyone on the list has changed coolant hoses, can you tell me what size you are using! I just replaced mine with 19mm probably should be 17mm, but can't find any in that size. Ray _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init iative now. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:00 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat John, Never here. Last Summer's flight to the north country was to the coastal area of Oregon mostly between Waldport and Tillamook with several trips up and down the coast as we were trying to penetrate the marine layer lying against the inland hills to get to McMinnville for the Antique fly in and to see the Spruce Goose. Lots of fog (low ceilings) and rain but nothing resembling carb ice. There were six of us on this flight. Also lots of flying over the past nine years with no evidence of carb ice. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:18 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat > John Oakley raises a point that has been hashed over before. The carb > heat box out in the cold brings in cold air. Operating without the carb > heat box the carburetors are always in a "carb heat condition", high up in > the motor compartment out of direct air flow, just like on the RV line, > pulling heated air from the engine compartment. It has been suggested > that the only 912 flyers that have experienced carb ice are sucking in > cold air. Has anyone experienced carb ice on a 912 pulling air from the > engine compartment? > > John Kerr > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "john oakley" > >> >> Darin, >> I have the carb box that was a stock system on the model 4. I have had >> ice >> twice, both times in a bad place. I have several friends that fly rans >> and >> they have had ice also. On the 914 you get the air after the turbo if I >> remember right and it will take care of any problems. >> >> john >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh >> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:03 AM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carb Heat >> >> >> John, >> >> I never had any problems with ice on my 912 but would never rule it out. >> I >> have read many posts from 912 owners that think that ice is a non-issue >> as >> the air intakes are higher in the cowl and should have adequate heat to >> prevent icing, but I am not so sure. With my 914, the setup is different, >> there is a single intake and it is located in the radiator scoop on the >> bottom of the cowl so I will be getting cold, moist air straight to my >> carbs. As you know, here in Utah we have a pretty dry climate but there >> are >> a few days a year that are conducive to carb ice. What are you using for >> carb heat? >> >> -------- >> Darin Hawkes >> Series 7 (under Construction) >> 914 Turbo >> Ogden, Utah >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149868#149868 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.