Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:19 AM - Re: VW update (LarryM)
2. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: VW update (Steve Shinabery)
3. 09:42 AM - Re: VW update (LarryM)
4. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: VW update (Steve Shinabery)
5. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: VW update (Lynn Matteson)
6. 05:17 PM - Re: kitfox heater (Tom Jones)
7. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Michael Gibbs)
8. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Lynn Matteson)
9. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
10. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Guy Buchanan)
11. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (john oakley)
Message 1
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Thanks great performance Ron!
I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as well as the total
weight. I don't know why exactly. I can achieve the same take off distance
as you did (I always use flap for t/o and landing), but I have the stol wing.
I don't know why I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear.
I have about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt and
a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit, (advised by the designer).
I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of the 582 really is? I have read
somewhere about 150 lbs, but how did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about
500 lbs.
If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing and any tips for
considering a switch. I think that when its time to replace the 582, it would
still be the cheapest and easiest to replace it with another 582, but I am
partial to VW, though I have no experience with them.
Thanks,
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156
Message 2
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Larry,I too was looking at the VW engine to replace my 582 all so..the
weight of the VW will be too heavy.I am going with the Jabiru 85hp
2200.a better pick.and the weight will be closer to the 582.call Jabiru
dealer dave Jalanti.in NY 518-851-2095.he will have all the info that
you need to change your kitfox to the Jabiru engine.with the Vw
engine.your usefull load will come down.alot.you need to do some more
research in to the VW+Jabiru engines and I belive that you will make the
better choice. Steve Shinabery,N554KF KF2 582 for now.
LarryM wrote:
>
> Thanks great performance Ron!
>
> I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as well as the
total weight. I don't know why exactly. I can achieve the same take off distance
as you did (I always use flap for t/o and landing), but I have the stol
wing. I don't know why I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear.
I have about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt and
a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit, (advised by the designer).
I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of the 582 really is? I have read
somewhere about 150 lbs, but how did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about
500 lbs.
>
> If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing and any tips
for considering a switch. I think that when its time to replace the 582, it would
still be the cheapest and easiest to replace it with another 582, but I am
partial to VW, though I have no experience with them.
>
> Thanks,
> larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156
>
>
>
Message 3
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Steve,
If money wasn't an issue, I would agree that would be the way to go. Since it
is, that why I think it's best to just put another 582 in when that time comes.
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151183#151183
Message 4
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Larry..I hate to say..But I think all so the 582 will be fine all so.
Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 582
LarryM wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> If money wasn't an issue, I would agree that would be the way to go. Since
it is, that why I think it's best to just put another 582 in when that time comes.
>
> larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151183#151183
>
>
>
Message 5
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Steve-
As far as I know, Dave Jalanti in New York is not a Jabiru dealer. He
is a very knowledgeable (former) Jabiru owner, but to the best of my
knowledge, there are only Pete in Tennessee, Andy in Florida, and Jim
in California who are the US dealers, and one in Canada whose name I
don't know. The last I heard these are the only Jabiru dealers, (as
appointed by Jabiru of Australia) and they can only sell the engines
regionally. Has something changed?
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
do not archive
On Dec 8, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Steve Shinabery wrote:
>
> Larry,I too was looking at the VW engine to replace my 582 all
> so..the weight of the VW will be too heavy.I am going with the
> Jabiru 85hp 2200.a better pick.and the weight will be closer to the
> 582.call Jabiru dealer dave Jalanti.in NY 518-851-2095.he will have
> all the info that you need to change your kitfox to the Jabiru
> engine.with the Vw engine.your usefull load will come down.alot.you
> need to do some more research in to the VW+Jabiru engines and I
> belive that you will make the better choice. Steve
> Shinabery,N554KF KF2 582 for now.
>
> LarryM wrote:
>>
>> Thanks great performance Ron!
>>
>> I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as
>> well as the total weight. I don't know why exactly. I can
>> achieve the same take off distance as you did (I always use flap
>> for t/o and landing), but I have the stol wing. I don't know why
>> I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear. I have
>> about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt
>> and a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit,
>> (advised by the designer). I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of
>> the 582 really is? I have read somewhere about 150 lbs, but how
>> did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about 500 lbs.
>>
>> If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing
>> and any tips for considering a switch. I think that when its time
>> to replace the 582, it would still be the cheapest and easiest to
>> replace it with another 582, but I am partial to VW, though I have
>> no experience with them.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> larry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out any heat at all.
It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of the muff is 9" X 10". There
are nine pot scrubbers in the muff. 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting
to between the rudder pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to make
it work better or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151223#151223
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1heater_installed_940.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_nine_pot_scrubbers_190.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
Tom sez:
>I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out any
>heat at all.
How would you described the air flow through your tubing, Tom? Was
it blowing like a tornado or was it more like a gentle breeze?
Assuming that your muffler got nice and hot, my first suspicion is
that the air is spending too little time in contact with the heat
source.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
I'm the furthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still
working on mine...but from what I've seen and learned, you should
have a larger outlet than an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would
be possible to put some baffles inside the muff so that the air has
to make some turns, like a labyrinth, which will make the air slow
and thereby picking up heat. If you look at your setup, the air can
flow from inlet to outlet passing through only 3 pot scrubbers. You
could install two divider baffles which would force the air to pass
through 3 scrubbers, make a 180 turn, go through 3 more scrubbers,
make another 180 turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbers, then
through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and therefore
expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the
mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed
out to me.
I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exhaust
pipes (~1400 F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a
matter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough
flow to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best
source, but I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger
area, would be a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make
your muff larger, like build it so it wraps completely around the
muffler, or do you have cowl clearance problems?
Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : )
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out
> any heat at all. It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of
> the muff is 9" X 10". There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff.
> 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder
> pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better
> or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV, Phase one
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
I was flying my Avid today on skis in northern Mn, High temp today was +4
F. Inside the plane it was about 40. I have the Jabiru engine and made a
box/heatmuff that fit around the muffler. The box has baffles inside it so
the air comes in the bottom center, goes to the ends of the box, then the
next baffle forces the air to go to the center of the box, there it goes up
to the top level of the box and goes to the ends of the box where I have t
he outlets that go to the firewall openings. I have a 120 MM 12 volt compu
ter fan that blows into the bottom of the heat muff, but just the air press
ure in the cowl will move the air through the heat muff. I had to take th
e oil cooler off to get my oil temps up, and I was picking up the warmed ai
r off the cooler. With that setup, it would almost cook you out of the pla
ne with the fan on. If anyone want to see a pic or two, I could send it t
o them, but I don't know how to post a pic to the list. Jim Chuk Avid MK
IV> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater> Da
te: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:16:40 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Ki
tfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > I'm the fu
rthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still > working on mine...b
ut from what I've seen and learned, you should > have a larger outlet than
an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would > be possible to put some baffles
inside the muff so that the air has > to make some turns, like a labyrinth
, which will make the air slow > and thereby picking up heat. If you look a
t your setup, the air can > flow from inlet to outlet passing through only
3 pot scrubbers. You > could install two divider baffles which would force
the air to pass > through 3 scrubbers, make a 180=B0 turn, go through 3 mor
e scrubbers, > make another 180=B0 turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbe
rs, then > through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and ther
efore > expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the >
mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed > ou
t to me.> > I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exha
ust > pipes (~1400=B0 F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a > m
atter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough > flow
to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best > source, bu
t I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger > area, would be
a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make > your muff larger,
like build it so it wraps completely around the > muffler, or do you have
cowl clearance problems?> > Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : )> Gr
ass Lake, Michigan> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200> flying w/440+ hrs> >
> > On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote:> > > --> Kitfox-List mess
age posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>> >> > I flight tested my C
abin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out > > any heat at all. It is an e
xhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of > > the muff is 9" X 10". There are nin
e pot scrubbers in the muff. > > 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting
to between the rudder > > pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to ma
ke it work better > > or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures att
ached.> >> > --------> > Tom Jones> > Classic IV, Phase one> > 503 Rotax, 7
====================> > >
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
At 05:16 PM 12/8/2007, you wrote:
>Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better or should
>I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached.
Thoughts:
1. Though the inside (muffler skin) is hot, the outside is not, so
you'll only get air 1/2 as hot as you expect. Note that there's more
"cold" skin area than "hot" skin area since the cold has a larger diameter.
2. The "most direct" path from intake to exit requires very little
contact, "percentage wise" with the hot surface.
3. Virtually any air exchange at the edges will "cool" the muff.
Suggestions:
1. Coat the inside of the muff with the stick-on fiberglass/ foil
insulation. (ACS - "Heat Barrier - Adhesive Backed" PN 08-00630.) The
stuff's about 3/32" thick. This will insulate the outer skin,
preventing cooling of the pot scrubbers.
2. Install an angle to baffle flow. I think one running parallel the
muffler just "downstream" of the intake, forcing the incoming flow to
turn laterally to the outboard 2/3 of the muff would help a lot. This
angle MUST seal against the muffler.
3. Speaking of seal, figure out some kind of high temp seal for the
edges and angle baffle. I don't think you need RTV, I'm betting
there's a nice rubberish seal for metal edges that can handle the
800F or so the muffler sees. (Worst case you could figure out how to
use the spam can cowl baffle seal material.) (I checked McMaster and
they have some edge trim, (page 3619,) but it's silicone and good to
only 450F. You could try it, though.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox heater |
The first way to heat better is to use Lowell's louvers system to control
the air going to the radiator and oil cooler, way cool stuff.
john
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