---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/08/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:19 AM - Re: VW update (LarryM) 2. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: VW update (Steve Shinabery) 3. 09:42 AM - Re: VW update (LarryM) 4. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: VW update (Steve Shinabery) 5. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: VW update (Lynn Matteson) 6. 05:17 PM - Re: kitfox heater (Tom Jones) 7. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Michael Gibbs) 8. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Lynn Matteson) 9. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 10. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (Guy Buchanan) 11. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: kitfox heater (john oakley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:00 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: VW update From: "LarryM" Thanks great performance Ron! I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as well as the total weight. I don't know why exactly. I can achieve the same take off distance as you did (I always use flap for t/o and landing), but I have the stol wing. I don't know why I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear. I have about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt and a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit, (advised by the designer). I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of the 582 really is? I have read somewhere about 150 lbs, but how did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about 500 lbs. If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing and any tips for considering a switch. I think that when its time to replace the 582, it would still be the cheapest and easiest to replace it with another 582, but I am partial to VW, though I have no experience with them. Thanks, larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:39 AM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: VW update Larry,I too was looking at the VW engine to replace my 582 all so..the weight of the VW will be too heavy.I am going with the Jabiru 85hp 2200.a better pick.and the weight will be closer to the 582.call Jabiru dealer dave Jalanti.in NY 518-851-2095.he will have all the info that you need to change your kitfox to the Jabiru engine.with the Vw engine.your usefull load will come down.alot.you need to do some more research in to the VW+Jabiru engines and I belive that you will make the better choice. Steve Shinabery,N554KF KF2 582 for now. LarryM wrote: > > Thanks great performance Ron! > > I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as well as the total weight. I don't know why exactly. I can achieve the same take off distance as you did (I always use flap for t/o and landing), but I have the stol wing. I don't know why I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear. I have about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt and a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit, (advised by the designer). I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of the 582 really is? I have read somewhere about 150 lbs, but how did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about 500 lbs. > > If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing and any tips for considering a switch. I think that when its time to replace the 582, it would still be the cheapest and easiest to replace it with another 582, but I am partial to VW, though I have no experience with them. > > Thanks, > larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: VW update From: "LarryM" Steve, If money wasn't an issue, I would agree that would be the way to go. Since it is, that why I think it's best to just put another 582 in when that time comes. larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151183#151183 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:52 AM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: VW update Larry..I hate to say..But I think all so the 582 will be fine all so. Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 582 LarryM wrote: > > Steve, > > If money wasn't an issue, I would agree that would be the way to go. Since it is, that why I think it's best to just put another 582 in when that time comes. > > larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151183#151183 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:30 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: VW update Steve- As far as I know, Dave Jalanti in New York is not a Jabiru dealer. He is a very knowledgeable (former) Jabiru owner, but to the best of my knowledge, there are only Pete in Tennessee, Andy in Florida, and Jim in California who are the US dealers, and one in Canada whose name I don't know. The last I heard these are the only Jabiru dealers, (as appointed by Jabiru of Australia) and they can only sell the engines regionally. Has something changed? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs do not archive On Dec 8, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Steve Shinabery wrote: > > Larry,I too was looking at the VW engine to replace my 582 all > so..the weight of the VW will be too heavy.I am going with the > Jabiru 85hp 2200.a better pick.and the weight will be closer to the > 582.call Jabiru dealer dave Jalanti.in NY 518-851-2095.he will have > all the info that you need to change your kitfox to the Jabiru > engine.with the Vw engine.your usefull load will come down.alot.you > need to do some more research in to the VW+Jabiru engines and I > belive that you will make the better choice. Steve > Shinabery,N554KF KF2 582 for now. > > LarryM wrote: >> >> Thanks great performance Ron! >> >> I have an STOL Avid with the 582. The CG has been a problem as >> well as the total weight. I don't know why exactly. I can >> achieve the same take off distance as you did (I always use flap >> for t/o and landing), but I have the stol wing. I don't know why >> I'm so heavy, even allowing 30lbs more for the grove gear. I have >> about 11 lbs of lead in the tail, plus about 17lbs from the elt >> and a battery. I fly with the cg at the published aft limit, >> (advised by the designer). I wonder How heavy the FWF weight of >> the 582 really is? I have read somewhere about 150 lbs, but how >> did this MK1V get so heavy? It should be about 500 lbs. >> >> If you get a chance, could you tell me what reduction gearing >> and any tips for considering a switch. I think that when its time >> to replace the 582, it would still be the cheapest and easiest to >> replace it with another 582, but I am partial to VW, though I have >> no experience with them. >> >> Thanks, >> larry >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151156#151156 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater From: "Tom Jones" I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out any heat at all. It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of the muff is 9" X 10". There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff. 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151223#151223 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/1heater_installed_940.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_nine_pot_scrubbers_190.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:20 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater Tom sez: >I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out any >heat at all. How would you described the air flow through your tubing, Tom? Was it blowing like a tornado or was it more like a gentle breeze? Assuming that your muffler got nice and hot, my first suspicion is that the air is spending too little time in contact with the heat source. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:17 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater I'm the furthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still working on mine...but from what I've seen and learned, you should have a larger outlet than an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would be possible to put some baffles inside the muff so that the air has to make some turns, like a labyrinth, which will make the air slow and thereby picking up heat. If you look at your setup, the air can flow from inlet to outlet passing through only 3 pot scrubbers. You could install two divider baffles which would force the air to pass through 3 scrubbers, make a 180 turn, go through 3 more scrubbers, make another 180 turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbers, then through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and therefore expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed out to me. I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exhaust pipes (~1400 F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a matter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough flow to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best source, but I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger area, would be a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make your muff larger, like build it so it wraps completely around the muffler, or do you have cowl clearance problems? Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : ) Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote: > > I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out > any heat at all. It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of > the muff is 9" X 10". There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff. > 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder > pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better > or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV, Phase one > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:33 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater I was flying my Avid today on skis in northern Mn, High temp today was +4 F. Inside the plane it was about 40. I have the Jabiru engine and made a box/heatmuff that fit around the muffler. The box has baffles inside it so the air comes in the bottom center, goes to the ends of the box, then the next baffle forces the air to go to the center of the box, there it goes up to the top level of the box and goes to the ends of the box where I have t he outlets that go to the firewall openings. I have a 120 MM 12 volt compu ter fan that blows into the bottom of the heat muff, but just the air press ure in the cowl will move the air through the heat muff. I had to take th e oil cooler off to get my oil temps up, and I was picking up the warmed ai r off the cooler. With that setup, it would almost cook you out of the pla ne with the fan on. If anyone want to see a pic or two, I could send it t o them, but I don't know how to post a pic to the list. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater> Da te: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:16:40 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Ki tfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I'm the fu rthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still > working on mine...b ut from what I've seen and learned, you should > have a larger outlet than an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would > be possible to put some baffles inside the muff so that the air has > to make some turns, like a labyrinth , which will make the air slow > and thereby picking up heat. If you look a t your setup, the air can > flow from inlet to outlet passing through only 3 pot scrubbers. You > could install two divider baffles which would force the air to pass > through 3 scrubbers, make a 180=B0 turn, go through 3 mor e scrubbers, > make another 180=B0 turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbe rs, then > through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and ther efore > expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the > mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed > ou t to me.> > I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exha ust > pipes (~1400=B0 F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a > m atter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough > flow to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best > source, bu t I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger > area, would be a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make > your muff larger, like build it so it wraps completely around the > muffler, or do you have cowl clearance problems?> > Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : )> Gr ass Lake, Michigan> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200> flying w/440+ hrs> > > > On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote:> > > --> Kitfox-List mess age posted by: "Tom Jones" > >> > I flight tested my C abin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out > > any heat at all. It is an e xhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of > > the muff is 9" X 10". There are nin e pot scrubbers in the muff. > > 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder > > pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to ma ke it work better > > or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures att ached.> >> > --------> > Tom Jones> > Classic IV, Phase one> > 503 Rotax, 7 ====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init iative now. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:06 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater At 05:16 PM 12/8/2007, you wrote: >Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better or should >I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached. Thoughts: 1. Though the inside (muffler skin) is hot, the outside is not, so you'll only get air 1/2 as hot as you expect. Note that there's more "cold" skin area than "hot" skin area since the cold has a larger diameter. 2. The "most direct" path from intake to exit requires very little contact, "percentage wise" with the hot surface. 3. Virtually any air exchange at the edges will "cool" the muff. Suggestions: 1. Coat the inside of the muff with the stick-on fiberglass/ foil insulation. (ACS - "Heat Barrier - Adhesive Backed" PN 08-00630.) The stuff's about 3/32" thick. This will insulate the outer skin, preventing cooling of the pot scrubbers. 2. Install an angle to baffle flow. I think one running parallel the muffler just "downstream" of the intake, forcing the incoming flow to turn laterally to the outboard 2/3 of the muff would help a lot. This angle MUST seal against the muffler. 3. Speaking of seal, figure out some kind of high temp seal for the edges and angle baffle. I don't think you need RTV, I'm betting there's a nice rubberish seal for metal edges that can handle the 800F or so the muffler sees. (Worst case you could figure out how to use the spam can cowl baffle seal material.) (I checked McMaster and they have some edge trim, (page 3619,) but it's silicone and good to only 450F. You could try it, though.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:28 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox heater The first way to heat better is to use Lowell's louvers system to control the air going to the radiator and oil cooler, way cool stuff. john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.