Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:05 AM - Re: Re: KF 3 or KF 4 (Michel Verheughe)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: KF 3 or KF 4 (Rexinator)
3. 01:48 PM - Re: No Brakes on the right side this AM:Update 12/11 (Tom Jones)
4. 03:52 PM - Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Paul Seehafer)
5. 07:12 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Michael Gibbs)
6. 07:19 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Frank Miles)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: KF 3 or KF 4 |
On Dec 11, 2007, at 1:44 AM, dave wrote:
> The biggest differance in handling from a 3 would be that it did not
> have aileron differential so you have more adverse yaw. It has a
> different airfoil as well and likely is a little slower.
All this is very true. But when I got a chance to try a model IV
(Classic) a few months ago, I found it to fly roughly like my model 3.
... or maybe it's because I am not a very good pilot! ;-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: KF 3 or KF 4 |
Michel,
OR MAYBE, you have become so adept at flying your model 3 that you use
your rudder naturally and have become a better pilot than you think?
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Do Not Archive
Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
> On Dec 11, 2007, at 1:44 AM, dave wrote:
>
>> The biggest differance in handling from a 3 would be that it did not
>> have aileron differential so you have more adverse yaw. It has a
>> different airfoil as well and likely is a little slower.
>
>
> All this is very true. But when I got a chance to try a model IV
> (Classic) a few months ago, I found it to fly roughly like my model 3.
> ... or maybe it's because I am not a very good pilot! ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: No Brakes on the right side this AM:Update 12/11 |
Today I took the Cleveland master cylinder apart and could see nothing worn or
wrong. It would hold air pressure when I put my thumb over the outlet and pumped
the piston. So I put it back on and filled the system from the bleed fitting
on the brake caliper.
The inlet line to that cylinder swings down to the floor then up to the reservoir
and has always had a little air in the high spot at the cylinder inlet. This
time I temporarily routed that line so it was continuously up hill from the
inlet to the reservoir. No bubbles in the line now and the pedal is good and
firm. I hope my problem was just air in the master cylinder.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151733#151733
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
----- Original Message -----
> Jim sez:> ...Kitfox was actually a copy of the first Avids.
Mike G. sez:
> Why do Avid folks keep saying this? Is it because Dean Wilson kept the
> Avid name and Dan Denney changed his to Kitfox?
>
> Denney and Wilson designed and built the original Avid Flyer together.
> When they parted ways they each continued with their own ideas for
> improving the design. They couldn't both be called "Avid Flyer", so
> Denney changed the name of his version.
>
> Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent
> evolution.
>
> Mike G.
Mike,
I don't think the Avid folks mean anything when they make reference to the
Kitfox being an Avid copy. They're probably just trying to educate those
that don't know about the designs history, and to alert potential owners of
other possible choices in the used market. You'd be surprised how many
people know about Kitfoxes, but have never heard of an Avid Flyer. That
will make the die hard Avid enthusiasts feel obligated to set the record
straight. Well heck, I guess that's what I'm doing right now. (smile)
I like the way the design has evolved over the years. It just keeps getting
better and better. When I look back at where we started from with that 1st
airplane, we've come a long way. But the reality is that we owe all that to
the very 1st Avid Flyer, which was designed, built, flown, and manufactured
by Dean Wilson (circa 1982). Dan Denney 's involvement came later when he
went to work for Wilsons company (Light Aero Inc) to help with sales. Of
course, who did what when could be forever disputed. To further support
what I wrote here is a copy of a note that Dean Wilson submitted to General
Aviation News back in Sept 1994 that provides his side of that story (and
fwiw, I never saw a rebuttal from anyone).
I also attached a picture of the very first Kitfox, and an early Avid Flyer
so everyone can see the obvious similarities. Minor cosmetic differences
are essentially all that made the Kitfox different from the Avid Flyer in
the early years. (It's rumored the 1st Kitfox, and/or the tooling, was built
from an Avid Flyer kit Denney obtained before starting Kitfox?)
Don't get me wrong, I like both airplanes (I have both). But credit for the
design most definitely belongs to Dean Wilson, who in my opinion is one of
the most prolific and genius light aircraft designers of our time. But just
like so many others before him, the real story got twisted. So he gets
little or no recognition, and is generally unappreciated for all he has done
for aviation.
So the story needs to be told. And while he deserves much more attention,
at least within our ranks we need to acknowledge and credit him for all he's
done to provide us with one great airplane design...
Paul Seehafer
Avid Flyer & Kitfox owner
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
Paul sez:
>They're probably just trying to educate those that don't know about
>the designs history...
Mis-educate might be more like it. :-)
>...the reality is that we owe all that to the very 1st Avid Flyer,
>which was designed, built, flown, and manufactured by Dean Wilson
>(circa 1982). Dan Denney 's involvement came later when he went to
>work for Wilsons company (Light Aero Inc) to help with sales.
That's not how the October 1983 issue of Sport Aviation tells the
story. Oddly enough, you posted this message to the Kitfox list
archives yourself last year
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70741&highlight=&sid=47e69b627ef676270e19d24feba71768>:
"Dan Denney of Boise, Idaho was the person with the idea from which
sprang the Avid Flyer. He wanted something 'between ultralights and
homebuilts' that could be flown in the rugged country around Boise,
getting in and out of almost any reasonably open ground--that's one
of the reasons for the big wheels. It's high country out there, so
the machine would have a very good rate of climb, maximized in that
direction, in fact, at the expense of cruise and top speed. And then
it would have to do all this hauling two people at the lowest
possible initial and operational cost. Finally, it had to fold up to
legal highway towing dimensions and be capable of running down the
highway at the legal Double Nickle (sic).
"That's a pretty tall order, but Dan had a friend who was uniquely
qualified to transform that list of requirements into tube and
fabric, wings and things and end up with an airplane that could fit
the bill. Dean Wilson, who also hails from Boise was the man. Many
of you know Dean for his work on antique restorations, most notably
the Avro 504K that was the AAA Grand Champion some years ago...or,
more recently, as the designer of the long-winged Eagle ag plane.
Whatever, I think he is about to gain wider notoriety for the Avid
Flyer than anything he's ever done.
"Both Dan and Dean flew the airplane at Oshkosh in the flight
demonstration periods. They blew everyone's minds by accelerating
rapidly for maybe 75 feet, jerking back so hard the tail skid bumped
the pavement, then went climbing out at what looked awfully close to
a 45 degree angle..."
It goes on to say:
"...the Avid Flyer is available in kit form right now. Usually a new
design appearing at Oshkosh is a year or more...away from initial
deliveries to builders. Dan and Dean not only had their act together
before they arrived, but had already delivered 14 kits..."
Since they collaborated on the airplane and in the company, it would
be hard to argue that either "stole" the design from the other. My
point is that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard
clone.
In the message quoted above, you yourself said, "I just consider
N99AF to be the prototype for both the Avid Flyer and the Kitfox,
giving them both credit."
>...credit for the design most definitely belongs to Dean Wilson...
No one is arguing who designed the airplane.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 6
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| Subject: | Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
For those who care, Dean us living in Clarkston, Washington and is presently
restoring a Beach staggerwing.
Frank Miles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Seehafer
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)
----- Original Message -----
> Jim sez:> ...Kitfox was actually a copy of the first Avids.
Mike G. sez:
> Why do Avid folks keep saying this? Is it because Dean Wilson kept the
> Avid name and Dan Denney changed his to Kitfox?
>
> Denney and Wilson designed and built the original Avid Flyer together.
> When they parted ways they each continued with their own ideas for
> improving the design. They couldn't both be called "Avid Flyer", so
> Denney changed the name of his version.
>
> Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent
> evolution.
>
> Mike G.
Mike,
I don't think the Avid folks mean anything when they make reference to the
Kitfox being an Avid copy. They're probably just trying to educate those
that don't know about the designs history, and to alert potential owners of
other possible choices in the used market. You'd be surprised how many
people know about Kitfoxes, but have never heard of an Avid Flyer. That
will make the die hard Avid enthusiasts feel obligated to set the record
straight. Well heck, I guess that's what I'm doing right now. (smile)
I like the way the design has evolved over the years. It just keeps getting
better and better. When I look back at where we started from with that 1st
airplane, we've come a long way. But the reality is that we owe all that to
the very 1st Avid Flyer, which was designed, built, flown, and manufactured
by Dean Wilson (circa 1982). Dan Denney 's involvement came later when he
went to work for Wilsons company (Light Aero Inc) to help with sales. Of
course, who did what when could be forever disputed. To further support
what I wrote here is a copy of a note that Dean Wilson submitted to General
Aviation News back in Sept 1994 that provides his side of that story (and
fwiw, I never saw a rebuttal from anyone).
I also attached a picture of the very first Kitfox, and an early Avid Flyer
so everyone can see the obvious similarities. Minor cosmetic differences
are essentially all that made the Kitfox different from the Avid Flyer in
the early years. (It's rumored the 1st Kitfox, and/or the tooling, was built
from an Avid Flyer kit Denney obtained before starting Kitfox?)
Don't get me wrong, I like both airplanes (I have both). But credit for the
design most definitely belongs to Dean Wilson, who in my opinion is one of
the most prolific and genius light aircraft designers of our time. But just
like so many others before him, the real story got twisted. So he gets
little or no recognition, and is generally unappreciated for all he has done
for aviation.
So the story needs to be told. And while he deserves much more attention,
at least within our ranks we need to acknowledge and credit him for all he's
done to provide us with one great airplane design...
Paul Seehafer
Avid Flyer & Kitfox owner
>
>
>
2:51 PM
2:51 PM
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