Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:09 AM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Paul Seehafer)
2. 02:25 PM - Re: KF 3 or KF 4 (Tom Jones)
3. 07:23 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Michael Gibbs)
4. 09:39 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Lowell Fitt)
5. 10:33 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (john oakley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
> Paul sez:
>>They're probably just trying to educate those that don't know about the
>>designs history...
Mike sez;
> Mis-educate might be more like it. :-)
> Since they collaborated on the airplane and in the company, it would be
> hard to argue that either "stole" the design from the other. My point is
> that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard clone.
>
> In the message quoted above, you yourself said, "I just consider N99AF to
> be the prototype for both the Avid Flyer and the Kitfox, giving them both
> credit."
>
>>...credit for the design most definitely belongs to Dean Wilson...
>
> No one is arguing who designed the airplane.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(end of Mikes post)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
....... Paul's response.......
Mike,
Mis-educate? I don't think so.
Notice I never said in my recent post anything about Dan's involvement in
the original concept? I did so for a reason...no one except for probably
Dean Wilson and Dan Denney know the real story about how the concept
developed. And fwiw, I still think they both played a part in that. But
Dean is the person that took that dream and made it reality. Denney was not
an airplane designer. Wilson was. So Dean Wilson deserves credit for
physically creating that very 1st airplane. It was two years later that
Denney came along with the Kitfox, which at the time was very hard to tell
apart from the Avid. So from a historical viewpoint, there is no question
the Kitfox was a copy of the Avid Flyer. But for the record, I agree with
you that the Kitfox should not be referred to as a bastard clone. It is a
sibling of sorts to the Avid, described best as being a younger step
brother.
I'm not arguing. As you pointed out, I previously gave both Wilson and
Denney credit.
But to further explain my position, I still believe if it weren't for
Wilson, the wonderful airplanes we enjoy today might still just be a dream.
There are few men with the abilities and the genius who could have created
such an innovative design from just a dream. And as far as Avid Flyer
N99AF being the prototype for the Avid and the Kitfox, I still believe that
to be true. Knowing the history, and how exact the 1st Kitfox was to the
Avid Flyer, that would be undeniable. Of course, N99AF has since fathered a
whole slew of designs. So technically it's the prototype for many diffent
aircraft. Somewhat like the first Cub ever built....whereas every Cub after
it owes its heritage to that first one. I've lost count of the number of
copies that have been taken from the original design, but I think it just
might possibly be the most copied light aircraft design ever created. So
the Kitfox is far from alone. It hasn't done much for paying the bills, but
hopefully Dean gets to at least enjoy being flattered a little bit for what
he built. But for all of us, we get to enjoy the benefits of all those new
and improved versions being made available to us. The design just keeps
evolving, getting better and better every year. I'm confident the basic
design will outlive all of us.
For another account of how the Avid Flyer and the Kitfox came to be, check
out http://www.avidflyeraircraft.com/assets/a_model/Dean%20Wilson.pdf
While it isn't 100% accurate in a couple areas, I think the author does
pretty well putting toether the story of Wilson and Denney. And honestly,
I'd rather anyone interested in the Avid/Kitfox history read it and then
make their own conclusions. I'll be the 1st to admit I have trouble keeping
all the details straight. And if anyone on the forum here knows more
details about the history, by all means let the rest of us know. I think
all any of us really want is to know the truth.
Respectfully,
Paul Seehafer
Central Wisconsin
Avid Prototype N99AF and Kitfox IV-1200 amphib
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: KF 3 or KF 4 |
I see that Kitfox has a sale pending already. do not archive
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151876#151876
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
Paul sez:
>...no one except for probably Dean Wilson and Dan Denney know the
>real story about how the concept developed.
The article you posted the link to corroborates the previous one well:
"In the early 1980s, Wilson got his chance when an acquaintance
approached him and asked if he'd design an ultralight.
Wilson...talked his friend into doing a light Experimental design.
"Wilson's aforementioned 'acquaintance' wanted to partner with him in
a company to produce kits for the Flyer, but the arrangement didn't
work out...That 'acquaintance' was Kitfox founder Dan Denney."
Based on Wilson's own testimony, they both had a part in
conceptualizing the Avid Flyer and forming the company that would
sell the kits. No question, it was Wilson's design and he deserves
the credit for creating the original, but take away either component
of the equation and what we know today as Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers
would not exist. I think both articles reinforces the point that
Denney didn't copy the Flyer from outside--he was inside from the
conception.
Would Wilson have gone on to design some great airplanes had be never
met Denney? Sure, but we'd all be flying Light Aero Flyers instead
and who knows what they'd look like.
"He said he wouldn't compete with me after he left, and we shook hands on it."
And the rest is, as they say, history. I have never heard Denney's
side of the story, but I don't doubt what Wilson is saying. I'm sure
this is why the article doesn't begin with "...a friend approached
him...". And why, when I went to Nampa and Caldwell with my dad in
1991 to check out the two airplanes, the rivalry was in high gear. I
used it to my advantage when we were negotiating the purchase price.
:-)
Interesting stuff. Thanks, Paul.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
I,ve enjoyed this discussion and have to add a tidbit. A local here in
Cameron Park needed a heavy hauler bush plane to take with him to Africa
where he served every other quarter of the year as a missionary. The way he
told it, it was about ten minutes by air from his compound to the local
airport, but nearly half a day by ground transport.
He contracted with Dean Wilson to design him such an airplane. Attached is
a photo of his creation. Notice the three tiered "venetian blind" flaperon
on the upper wing. The airplane had a cargo door that would accommodate a
55 gallon drum. It flew quite well and did in fact get to Africa, where it
was used as intended until it was damaged in a landing accident. The owner
perished in the crash of his Robinson Exec, built for the same purpose as
the biplane, so further info. is not available.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)
>
> Paul sez:
>
>>...no one except for probably Dean Wilson and Dan Denney know the real
>>story about how the concept developed.
>
> The article you posted the link to corroborates the previous one well:
>
> "In the early 1980s, Wilson got his chance when an acquaintance approached
> him and asked if he'd design an ultralight. Wilson...talked his friend
> into doing a light Experimental design.
>
> "Wilson's aforementioned 'acquaintance' wanted to partner with him in a
> company to produce kits for the Flyer, but the arrangement didn't work
> out...That 'acquaintance' was Kitfox founder Dan Denney."
>
> Based on Wilson's own testimony, they both had a part in conceptualizing
> the Avid Flyer and forming the company that would sell the kits. No
> question, it was Wilson's design and he deserves the credit for creating
> the original, but take away either component of the equation and what we
> know today as Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers would not exist. I think both
> articles reinforces the point that Denney didn't copy the Flyer from
> outside--he was inside from the conception.
>
> Would Wilson have gone on to design some great airplanes had be never met
> Denney? Sure, but we'd all be flying Light Aero Flyers instead and who
> knows what they'd look like.
>
> "He said he wouldn't compete with me after he left, and we shook hands on
> it."
>
> And the rest is, as they say, history. I have never heard Denney's side
> of the story, but I don't doubt what Wilson is saying. I'm sure this is
> why the article doesn't begin with "...a friend approached him...". And
> why, when I went to Nampa and Caldwell with my dad in 1991 to check out
> the two airplanes, the rivalry was in high gear. I used it to my
> advantage when we were negotiating the purchase price. :-)
>
> Interesting stuff. Thanks, Paul.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
Wow,
That is something. I have never seen such a wing set up, the lower wing
appears much smaller along with the flaps on the upper wing. It reminds me
the artic explorer Dean built, both in twin and single engine, as a camper.
The original even had a diver exit door in the hull.
John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)
I,ve enjoyed this discussion and have to add a tidbit. A local here in
Cameron Park needed a heavy hauler bush plane to take with him to Africa
where he served every other quarter of the year as a missionary. The way he
told it, it was about ten minutes by air from his compound to the local
airport, but nearly half a day by ground transport.
He contracted with Dean Wilson to design him such an airplane. Attached is
a photo of his creation. Notice the three tiered "venetian blind" flaperon
on the upper wing. The airplane had a cargo door that would accommodate a
55 gallon drum. It flew quite well and did in fact get to Africa, where it
was used as intended until it was damaged in a landing accident. The owner
perished in the crash of his Robinson Exec, built for the same purpose as
the biplane, so further info. is not available.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)
>
> Paul sez:
>
>>...no one except for probably Dean Wilson and Dan Denney know the real
>>story about how the concept developed.
>
> The article you posted the link to corroborates the previous one well:
>
> "In the early 1980s, Wilson got his chance when an acquaintance approached
> him and asked if he'd design an ultralight. Wilson...talked his friend
> into doing a light Experimental design.
>
> "Wilson's aforementioned 'acquaintance' wanted to partner with him in a
> company to produce kits for the Flyer, but the arrangement didn't work
> out...That 'acquaintance' was Kitfox founder Dan Denney."
>
> Based on Wilson's own testimony, they both had a part in conceptualizing
> the Avid Flyer and forming the company that would sell the kits. No
> question, it was Wilson's design and he deserves the credit for creating
> the original, but take away either component of the equation and what we
> know today as Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers would not exist. I think both
> articles reinforces the point that Denney didn't copy the Flyer from
> outside--he was inside from the conception.
>
> Would Wilson have gone on to design some great airplanes had be never met
> Denney? Sure, but we'd all be flying Light Aero Flyers instead and who
> knows what they'd look like.
>
> "He said he wouldn't compete with me after he left, and we shook hands on
> it."
>
> And the rest is, as they say, history. I have never heard Denney's side
> of the story, but I don't doubt what Wilson is saying. I'm sure this is
> why the article doesn't begin with "...a friend approached him...". And
> why, when I went to Nampa and Caldwell with my dad in 1991 to check out
> the two airplanes, the rivalry was in high gear. I used it to my
> advantage when we were negotiating the purchase price. :-)
>
> Interesting stuff. Thanks, Paul.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
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