Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Paul Seehafer)
2. 09:11 AM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (dave)
3. 10:06 AM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (wingnut)
4. 10:30 AM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Tom Jones)
5. 10:40 AM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (dholly)
6. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Paul Seehafer)
7. 12:13 PM - Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX (GONER752@aol.com)
8. 12:38 PM - Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (dave)
9. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Lynn Matteson)
10. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Paul Seehafer)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Steve Shinabery)
12. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (john oakley)
13. 02:51 PM - Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX (Michel Verheughe)
14. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
15. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Dennis Golden)
16. 04:08 PM - Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX (Pete Christensen)
17. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Lynn Matteson)
18. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Lynn Matteson)
19. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Lynn Matteson)
20. 04:31 PM - Speedster Picture at Airport (W & R Beck)
21. 06:07 PM - Kitfox and Avid (john oakley)
22. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (john oakley)
23. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (SOURDOSTAN@aol.com)
24. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (john oakley)
25. 08:35 PM - Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX (Michael Gibbs)
26. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Michael Gibbs)
27. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Lynn Matteson)
28. 10:15 PM - Re: Speedster Picture at Airport (Paul Seehafer)
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Hey Gang,
I Spent an hour on the telephone last night with Dean Wilson. Now I am
totally confident the information I have is correct. And I can tell you now
after hearing the specific details, all Dan Denney did is ask Dean if he'd
be interested in building an ultralight they could sell. His input was
limited to the idea of building an ultralight. No design paramaters, and no
new or novel concepts. Dean was opposed to the idea of an ultralight and
told Dan so, because in the area they lived unless you had an N-number on
your airplane, the airports wouldn't let you operate there. But the idea of
building a lightweight airplane between an ultralight and a regular airplane
appealed to Dean. And being that Dean likes nothing more than designing and
building airplanes, he started drawing.
And just like the previous Kitplanes article said, this all happened while
Dean was in a hospital bed. So while he layed there, he thought about all
the ultralighters that used to come out to his place to fly because the
airports wouldn't let them fly there. And how many times he helped them
assemble their airplanes, taking two of them hours to get every pin and bolt
in the right place, and still many times forgetting a piece or two. And
even worse, how many times they were just getting the airplane all together
when the wind would come up, and then they'd have to disassemble the whole
thing again because their airplanes couldn't fly in any kind of a wind.
Having those experiences in the back of his mind helped Dean with creating
his design goals for the Avid Flyer; He needed a very light and
inexpensive, but strong and safe airplane (but not an ultralight). And it
would have two seats rather than one. And it would have a wing loading of
at least 5lbs per foot so it could handle wind. And it had to have a simple
and quick, no controls to disconnect wing folding mechanism that was pretty
much fool proof so as to alleviate safety concerns from leaving pins or
bolts out. And easily towable. Dean said the airplane design itself went
quick and easy, but he struggled for quite some time with the wing folding
mechanism. In fact, at one point he threw all the drawings in the garbage
thinking it just wasn't going to happen. But then it came to him, he needed
to use small universal joints in the wing fold mechanism located behind the
seat. That being the final hurdle, he had his Avid Flyer design. Having it
all on paper he showed what he had to Dan. Dan's response was just a
simple, "looks good". So I guess the rest is now history..
Hearing all this completes the story, and furthers my initial thoughts.
Dan's involvement at best was just being the catalyst that got Dean
thinking.
Dean also confirmed the 1st Kitfox was built from an Avid kit, or at least
the jigging was. And fwiw, a man by the name of Roger Frank was the guy
that Dan hired to design and build the Thunder Mustang, as he was a carbon
fiber sailplane guru/engineer and not only had experience with composite
structures, but also had the ability to scale down the drawings of the real
P-51, re-engineering the design where needed, make the plugs and molds, and
eventually producing the actual airplane.
I don't mean to totally discredit Dan Denney here. I just feel it is
important the history be explained correctly. Other than that, I agee 100%
with DHolly's previous post comments " I am simply forever grateful these
two stars collided".
But it was just that, a collision...
Paul
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Paul,
Excellent due diligence on your part to verify what you had thought originally.
Nothing like getting the info direct from the horse mouth.
This should now set the record straight for everyone.
Great work !!
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152342#152342
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Is anyone talking to Dan Denney to get his side of the story? Not to imply that
Mr. Wilson is not being completely truthful. For all I know, Mr. Denney would
just concur. But, given that the two parties are not on good terms, if you're
really interested in historical accuracy then you have to interview both sides.
> I Spent an hour on the telephone last night with Dean Wilson. Now I am totally
confident the information I have is correct.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152354#152354
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
This history lesson has been great reading! Someone mentioned above that Dan Denny's
strength was in marketing the Kitfox. I have to agree because he hooked
me with a Kitfox information package in 1985.
I started taking flying lessons in 1984. My instructor showed me a picture he
had of the Kitfox prototype 84DD. It really interested me so I ordered an information
package from Denny Aerocraft Co. Denny also started a Kitfox news letter
named "Kitfox Pack News". He sent me a copy of Vol. 1 Issue 1 in November
1985. In it he wrote an article about his trip to the Reno Air races in the
Kitfox.
They only had one trailer and wanted to take both 84DD and their new partially
finished Kit for a static display, so the only way to get 84DD there was to
fly it. It was raining and socked in in Bosie so they trailered the Kitfox out
of town and up out of the fog. They unloaded and he took off from a highway
department gravel pit. He goes on to tell about the trip including landing at
a truck stop for fuel.
For the next 10 years I couldn't quit thinking how much fun that would be to have
an airplane I could haul on a trailer, unload and take off. In 1994 I ordered
my a Classic 4 kit from the then new Skystar aircraft company.
This past April, 23 years since I saw that first Kitfox photo, I made my first
tail wheel solo flight in my own Kitfox that I built, haul on a trailer, unload,
and take off!
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152357#152357
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
Mike - My apologies if I misunderstood you regarding the original "Flyer" design
credits. I have always considered N99AF, proto for the A model to be the original
"Flyer". And, since I also thought it was pretty much accepted that the
1st Kitfox was a copy with a few cosmetic changes, I surely did find some of your
comments confusing at times!
> My point is that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard
> clone. -Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:12 pm
>
> Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent evolution. -Posted:
Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:19 pm
>
> The Kitfox can't be a "direct copy" of the Avid Flyer, it IS an Avid
> Flyer. It's not like someone came along and copied the design, it
> was divergent evolution! -Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:38 am
>
> The Kitfox was not copied from the Avid Flyer, the original "Avid
> Flyer" is the ancestor of both aircraft lines. -Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:27
pm
Thanks Paul for asking Dean to comment. I admit I never lost sleep not having the
complete picture, but I do find the history discussion terrific. Thanks to
all for filling in a few more blanks. Perhaps someone is able to further clarify
these little details I've always wondered about...
> Were the production A models --exactly-- the same as N99AF, or did they include
any notable changes?
> What model Avid kit was the very 1st Kitfox based upon (I've heard both A model
and B model)?
I have to chuckle though, perhaps if Jim C had originally said "...Kitfox was actually
a copy of the first Avid" rather than "the first Avids", the discussion
may never have been started! Thanks Jim!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152361#152361
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Luis said
"....then you have to interview both sides"
Luis,
Someone else can do that if they'd like. But as far as I'm concerned there
have been too many inconsistencies from Denney right from the very beginning
for me to believe the story as it stands to be inaccurate. Plus, I have
never seen any attempt from Dan to set the record straight with facts. And
as much as this story has floated around the aviation world one would think
if it were untrue he would have attempted to defend himself long ago. But
that's just my take on things.
I'm going to guess there will always be people that want to believe
something other than any of this, but if you look at the whole history it
all makes sense.
I would however welcome some facts that would prove any of this wrong.
Paul
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| Subject: | Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX |
Hey Guys,
This might be a little off topic for the list, but I figure if anyone
knows, you guys would.Does anyone have a source for a kitfox add-on for Microsoft
FSX? Preferably a mod 2, but any would be great. I did find one at
surclaro.com, a classic IV apparently, but it didn't seem to be at all compatible
with
FSX and was totally unworkable. Winter is finally upon us with earnest here
in the northeast.
BTW, thanks to all you guys for the history lesson. I always wondered about
the relationship of the kitfox and avid.Now I know.Thanks in advance for any
help.
Greg G.
Macedon, N.Y.
23NK
n375KL
Mod 2
582
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Well, if we have more doubt in the air again, maybe John McBean could speak up.
I am sure John knows how the plane he manufactures now evolved and what is was
copied from in the first place. ?
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152407#152407
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
"official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
shrink a picture for posting here. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Tom,
That's a really cool story!
I had similar ideas as you when I first decided on an Avid Flyer (Kitfox
wasn't around yet). I didn't have it so hard as you did, as I bought my 1st
Avid ready to fly. And even though I didn't build my 1st Avid, I had a
really good time utilizing it's easy portability features. I kept in my
one-stall garage here at home with the trailer hitch on the tail. When I
wanted to fly, I would just pull it out of the garage, attach it to the back
of my truck, fill it up with gas, give it a good preflight and engine warmup
right in the driveway, and then tug it down the road a few miles to an old
inactive airstrip (aka open field). I'd pull the wings ahead, put the pins
in the leading edge attachments, screw on the turtle deck, drop the hitch
from the tail, do a quick once over, give a tug on the recoil starter, and
next thing I knew I was off flying for the day burning all of 3 gph car gas.
Whole thing from opening the garge door to ready to fly was no more than 15
minutes. The first year I owned it I flew 210 hours.
Later I put the plane on floats (I live on a lake) and kept it out my front
door. Had even more fun that way.
Avids or Kitfoxes, I'm convinced they are the most versatile, and fun
airplane a person can own!!
If I can find some pictures of my early days dragging N99AF around behind my
truck I'll post a couple. I also have some video of it I can post to U-tube
if anyone is interested. In the meantime, here's a pic of old N99AF when I
was flying it yet...
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:30 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
>
> This history lesson has been great reading! Someone mentioned above that
> Dan Denny's strength was in marketing the Kitfox. I have to agree because
> he hooked me with a Kitfox information package in 1985.
>
> I started taking flying lessons in 1984. My instructor showed me a
> picture he had of the Kitfox prototype 84DD. It really interested me so I
> ordered an information package from Denny Aerocraft Co. Denny also
> started a Kitfox news letter named "Kitfox Pack News". He sent me a copy
> of Vol. 1 Issue 1 in November 1985. In it he wrote an article about his
> trip to the Reno Air races in the Kitfox.
>
> They only had one trailer and wanted to take both 84DD and their new
> partially finished Kit for a static display, so the only way to get 84DD
> there was to fly it. It was raining and socked in in Bosie so they
> trailered the Kitfox out of town and up out of the fog. They unloaded and
> he took off from a highway department gravel pit. He goes on to tell
> about the trip including landing at a truck stop for fuel.
>
> For the next 10 years I couldn't quit thinking how much fun that would be
> to have an airplane I could haul on a trailer, unload and take off. In
> 1994 I ordered my a Classic 4 kit from the then new Skystar aircraft
> company.
>
> This past April, 23 years since I saw that first Kitfox photo, I made my
> first tail wheel solo flight in my own Kitfox that I built, haul on a
> trailer, unload, and take off!
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV, Phase one
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152357#152357
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Great picture Paul..and thanks 4 sharing it with all of us..Steve
Shinabery N554KF KF2 582
Paul Seehafer wrote:
> Tom,
>
> That's a really cool story!
>
> I had similar ideas as you when I first decided on an Avid Flyer
> (Kitfox wasn't around yet). I didn't have it so hard as you did, as I
> bought my 1st Avid ready to fly. And even though I didn't build my
> 1st Avid, I had a really good time utilizing it's easy portability
> features. I kept in my one-stall garage here at home with the trailer
> hitch on the tail. When I wanted to fly, I would just pull it out of
> the garage, attach it to the back of my truck, fill it up with gas,
> give it a good preflight and engine warmup right in the driveway, and
> then tug it down the road a few miles to an old inactive airstrip (aka
> open field). I'd pull the wings ahead, put the pins in the leading
> edge attachments, screw on the turtle deck, drop the hitch from the
> tail, do a quick once over, give a tug on the recoil starter, and next
> thing I knew I was off flying for the day burning all of 3 gph car
> gas. Whole thing from opening the garge door to ready to fly was no
> more than 15 minutes. The first year I owned it I flew 210 hours.
>
> Later I put the plane on floats (I live on a lake) and kept it out my
> front door. Had even more fun that way.
>
> Avids or Kitfoxes, I'm convinced they are the most versatile, and fun
> airplane a person can own!!
>
> If I can find some pictures of my early days dragging N99AF around
> behind my truck I'll post a couple. I also have some video of it I can
> post to U-tube if anyone is interested. In the meantime, here's a pic
> of old N99AF when I was flying it yet...
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:30 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
>
>
>>
>> This history lesson has been great reading! Someone mentioned above
>> that Dan Denny's strength was in marketing the Kitfox. I have to
>> agree because he hooked me with a Kitfox information package in 1985.
>>
>> I started taking flying lessons in 1984. My instructor showed me a
>> picture he had of the Kitfox prototype 84DD. It really interested me
>> so I ordered an information package from Denny Aerocraft Co. Denny
>> also started a Kitfox news letter named "Kitfox Pack News". He sent
>> me a copy of Vol. 1 Issue 1 in November 1985. In it he wrote an
>> article about his trip to the Reno Air races in the Kitfox.
>>
>> They only had one trailer and wanted to take both 84DD and their new
>> partially finished Kit for a static display, so the only way to get
>> 84DD there was to fly it. It was raining and socked in in Bosie so
>> they trailered the Kitfox out of town and up out of the fog. They
>> unloaded and he took off from a highway department gravel pit. He
>> goes on to tell about the trip including landing at a truck stop for
>> fuel.
>>
>> For the next 10 years I couldn't quit thinking how much fun that
>> would be to have an airplane I could haul on a trailer, unload and
>> take off. In 1994 I ordered my a Classic 4 kit from the then new
>> Skystar aircraft company.
>>
>> This past April, 23 years since I saw that first Kitfox photo, I made
>> my first tail wheel solo flight in my own Kitfox that I built, haul
>> on a trailer, unload, and take off!
>>
>> --------
>> Tom Jones
>> Classic IV, Phase one
>> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
>> Ellensburg, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152357#152357
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Lynn,
That is the speedster that the factory used for a while. Franklin flew this
one at Oshkosh for a 4 minute aerobatic run. Dan was so excited that he sent
many us a copy of the tape. I am not sure where the plane is now.
The signature you see is actually Charlie Denny's (I think), he was the
photo guy for Dan.
John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
"official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
shrink a picture for posting here. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX |
On Dec 15, 2007, at 9:12 PM, GONER752@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have a source for a kitfox add-onfor Microsoft FSX?
Greg, I did a pretty accurate model of my Kitfox 3 but for the flight
simulator X-Plane, sorry. It was great fun making it and I learnt a lot
about my aircraft in the making. For example, moving the CoG more aft
had a great influence on the spin characteristics. X-Plane is a very
good simulator if you want to experiment with the aerodynamics.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the fine scenery of Microsoft FSX.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4) |
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)> From:
oue191@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:40:05 -0800> To: kitfox-list@m
om>> > Mike - My apologies if I misunderstood you regarding the original "F
lyer" design credits. I have always considered N99AF, proto for the A model
to be the original "Flyer". And, since I also thought it was pretty much a
ccepted that the 1st Kitfox was a copy with a few cosmetic changes, I surel
y did find some of your comments confusing at times!> > > > My point is tha
t the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard> > clone. -Posted
: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:12 pm> > > > Neither is a copy of the other, they are
an example of divergent evolution. -Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:19 pm> > > >
The Kitfox can't be a "direct copy" of the Avid Flyer, it IS an Avid> > Fl
yer. It's not like someone came along and copied the design, it> > was dive
rgent evolution! -Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:38 am> > > > The Kitfox was no
t copied from the Avid Flyer, the original "Avid> > Flyer" is the ancestor
of both aircraft lines. -Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006>
> I have to chuckle though, perhaps if Jim C had originally said "...Kitfox
was actually a copy of the first Avid" rather than "the first Avids", the
discussion may never have been started! Thanks Jim!
Happy to be of help Doug. I guess a good cook knows when or how to stir th
e pot???? Jim Chuk
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152361#152361
======> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
> stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the wall
> of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an "official"
> Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of picture. Anybody
> know the history of this plane?
Yup, that's the prototype Model IV Speedster. I had a demo flight in
that plane in 1992, before I ordered mine. That picture must be really
faded because it was the brightest flourescent green and maroon that I
have ever seen. In fact, one of the other exhibitors at the Grand Parie
aport said they could see it on the ground from 7 miles out!
Regards,
Dennis M IV Speedster still building.
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX |
Go here for a fs Kitfox. Works on my 2004 and I think x also.
http://www.fsimcafe.com/Library/ShowCurrent.aspx?CategoryID=4&Page=3
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX
>
> On Dec 15, 2007, at 9:12 PM, GONER752@aol.com wrote:
>> Does anyone have a source for a kitfox add-on for Microsoft FSX?
>
> Greg, I did a pretty accurate model of my Kitfox 3 but for the flight
> simulator X-Plane, sorry. It was great fun making it and I learnt a lot
> about my aircraft in the making. For example, moving the CoG more aft
> had a great influence on the spin characteristics. X-Plane is a very
> good simulator if you want to experiment with the aerodynamics.
> Unfortunately, it doesn't have the fine scenery of Microsoft FSX.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Thanks John...it'd be nice to know the story behind this photo...like
who are the signers thanking? Somebody at Laramie? Did they have
airplane trouble? Why three signatures, when a Kitfox (normally)
holds only two...was this a special plane that seated more? Where is
N91KS today? DAMN, I love a good mystery!
I guess the least I could do is to look up the N-number and see what
is revealed.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
On Dec 15, 2007, at 5:13 PM, john oakley wrote:
>
> Lynn,
> That is the speedster that the factory used for a while. Franklin
> flew this
> one at Oshkosh for a 4 minute aerobatic run. Dan was so excited
> that he sent
> many us a copy of the tape. I am not sure where the plane is now.
> The signature you see is actually Charlie Denny's (I think), he was
> the
> photo guy for Dan.
>
> John Oakley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
>
> All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
> stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
> wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
> "official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
> picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
> the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
> this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
> nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
> it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
> shrink a picture for posting here. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/440+ hrs
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
I just did a search for N91KS, and here's the edited results: (I
deleted the current number-holder's info)
FAA Registry
N-Number Inquiry Results
N91KS has multiple records
Other Owner Names
Deregistered Aircraft 1 of 1
Aircraft Description
Serial Number
1515
Type Registration
Corporation
Manufacturer Name
DENNEY L DAN
Certificate Issue Date
09/10/1992
Model
KITFOX IV
Mode S Code
53112504
Year Manufacturer
None
Cancel Date
08/30/1995
Reason for Cancellation
Exported
Exported To
JAPAN
***************************************************
So it looks like the plane is across the big pond. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
do not archive
On Dec 15, 2007, at 5:13 PM, john oakley wrote:
>
> Lynn,
> That is the speedster that the factory used for a while. Franklin
> flew this
> one at Oshkosh for a 4 minute aerobatic run. Dan was so excited
> that he sent
> many us a copy of the tape. I am not sure where the plane is now.
> The signature you see is actually Charlie Denny's (I think), he was
> the
> photo guy for Dan.
>
> John Oakley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
>
> All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
> stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
> wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
> "official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
> picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
> the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
> this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
> nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
> it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
> shrink a picture for posting here. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/440+ hrs
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Yes, the picture was located right next to a south-facing bay window
and that's terrible for preserving photographs. In addition, the room
is lit with fluorescent lights which is another good way to sap all
the cyan out of a photo...but I digress....thanks for the
recollection, Dennis.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
do not archive
On Dec 15, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Dennis Golden wrote:
> consulting.com>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>> All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
>> stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
>> wall
>> of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an "official"
>> Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of picture.
>> Anybody
>> know the history of this plane?
>
> Yup, that's the prototype Model IV Speedster. I had a demo flight in
> that plane in 1992, before I ordered mine. That picture must be really
> faded because it was the brightest flourescent green and maroon that I
> have ever seen. In fact, one of the other exhibitors at the Grand
> Parie
> aport said they could see it on the ground from 7 miles out!
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis M IV Speedster still building.
> --
> Dennis Golden
> Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Speedster Picture at Airport |
Folks:
The Denny Kitfox Speedster in the airport photo (also printed as a poster
that was available from Denny) ended up in Japan. I saw it at the Moriya
airport when I was researching sport flying in Japan for several articles
that appeared in KitPlanes magazine.
The airplane had seen better days. The original fluorescent(sp?)
yellow/purple paint (automotive) had faded to a chalky white on the top
surfaces and everything looked very ragged. I kind of doubt whether it is
flying anymore, not with the level of care it was receiving. Kind of sad as
it was a stunner.
Robert Beck
Lynn,
That is the speedster that the factory used for a while. Franklin flew this
one at Oshkosh for a 4 minute aerobatic run. Dan was so excited that he sent
many us a copy of the tape. I am not sure where the plane is now.
The signature you see is actually Charlie Denny's (I think), he was the
photo guy for Dan.
John Oakley
> All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
> stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
> wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
> "official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
> picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
> the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
> this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
> nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
> it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
> shrink a picture for posting here. : )
Message 21
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The one thing that I have not seen any voice about this discussion is:
Dan is the one and first guy to push kit plane to the max.
I believe the he was solely instrumental in the "kit" manufacturing boom. Up
until Dan, there were kits out to build but nothing as complete as the two
aircraft Dan was involved in. you could actually buy a kit and get it in the
air with no trips to the aircraft supply store. Any one who had tried to
build from kits before this time are very aware of the pain of building the
old way.
John Oakley
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
The second name on the signature list is Skip, he was the factory test and
ferry pilot at that time, I think he went from there to fly in the AT6 Red
Baron flying team. I can't read the third name.
John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
All this talk of early Kitfox's made me recall a picture I saw when I
stopped in Laramie, WY, earlier this year. The picture was on the
wall of the FBO there. You'll notice that it appears to be an
"official" Skystar Aircraft picture...see logo at lower right of
picture. Anybody know the history of this plane? The fact that one of
the signers is named Denney made me curious. I seem to recall asking
this question earlier, but did a search of the archives and found
nothing...I apologize if I did post earlier and just missed finding
it. Besides, it'll be a good test of whether I've learned how to
shrink a picture for posting here. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
The third signature on the Laramie photo is Pat Redikar (sp?). He was
Skystar's demo pilot in the mid '90s until he bought a Cassutt and went off air
racing. The second signator, Skip Cedarquist, was an A&P and left Skystar to
run an FBO, in northern Idaho I seem to remember. Both real nice guys. Skip
showed up at Oshkosh a few years later to help with the Kitfox booth.
I happened to run into Dean Wilson this past summer in Northway, Alaska. I
had seen this white high wing four-place homebuilt aircraft in Whitehorse, YT,
earlier in the day (we'd all overnighted there). I looked on the data plate
and it said the name was "Wilson Special" or something as such. It was
obviously a homebuilt but it looked like it had been assembled from Piper parts
(PA 15, 16, 20 types). So when it pulled into Northway, we were in the
restaurant and one of the three fellas came inside. I asked him if he was Dean
Wilson, and he said no, but Dean was his brother. We chatted awhile about Dean,
and then he came inside. We had the nicest talk about Avids, Kitfoxes, other
designs, and his latest creation. He confirmed that the plane had Piper wings
and a modified fuselage. After some time I asked Dean point blank if he had
hard feelings about folks taking his designs and running away with them. He
replied that he was too old and life was too short to think about stuff like
that. I didn't pursue the conversation any further, but we continued to talk
for some time until their food arrived. One of the nicest conversations I've
ever had!!
Stan Specht
Kitfox Model IV Speedster "Columbine"
Denver, Colorado
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Stan,
I had it backwards then, thanks for the info, it really is fun to relieve
the fox past and present.
John Oakley
Fox 4 speedster 912 cap
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SOURDOSTAN@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy?
The third signature on the Laramie photo is Pat Redikar (sp?). He was
Skystar's demo pilot in the mid '90s until he bought a Cassutt and went off
air racing. The second signator, Skip Cedarquist, was an A&P and left
Skystar to run an FBO, in northern Idaho I seem to remember. Both real nice
guys. Skip showed up at Oshkosh a few years later to help with the Kitfox
booth.
I happened to run into Dean Wilson this past summer in Northway, Alaska. I
had seen this white high wing four-place homebuilt aircraft in Whitehorse,
YT, earlier in the day (we'd all overnighted there). I looked on the data
plate and it said the name was "Wilson Special" or something as such. It was
obviously a homebuilt but it looked like it had been assembled from Piper
parts (PA 15, 16, 20 types). So when it pulled into Northway, we were in the
restaurant and one of the three fellas came inside. I asked him if he was
Dean Wilson, and he said no, but Dean was his brother. We chatted awhile
about Dean, and then he came inside. We had the nicest talk about Avids,
Kitfoxes, other designs, and his latest creation. He confirmed that the
plane had Piper wings and a modified fuselage. After some time I asked Dean
point blank if he had hard feelings about folks taking his designs and
running away with them. He replied that he was too old and life was too
short to think about stuff like that. I didn't pursue the conversation any
further, but we continued to talk for some time until their food arrived.
One of the nicest conversations I've ever had!!
Stan Specht
Kitfox Model IV Speedster "Columbine"
Denver, Colorado
_____
See AOL's top rated
<http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004> recipes
and easy
<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop00030000000003>
ways to stay in shape for winter.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic:Kitfox add-on for FSX |
Michel sez:
>X-Plane is a very good simulator if you want to experiment with the
>aerodynamics. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the fine scenery of
>Microsoft FSX.
I dunno, Michel, version 9 of X-plane has terrain that is pretty spectacular!
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Paul sez:
>...all Dan Denney did is ask Dean if he'd be interested in building
>an ultralight they could sell. His input was limited to the idea of
>building an ultralight.
>
>Dan's involvement at best was just being the catalyst that got Dean thinking.
Several of the articles you posted suggest otherwise. Wilson
mentioned in one that their partnership fell apart, indicating that
he and Denney had a business relationship. Another article describes
both men performing demonstration flights and wowing the crowds at
Oshkosh.
Wilson was clearly the designer, but Denney was not an outsider on a
mission to copy the Flyer. I have not heard Denney's side of the
story and perhaps he did double-cross Wilson by competing against him
but, to my mind, that still leaves the Avid Flyer and Kitfox siblings.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? |
Thanks, Stan and John, for putting those names with personalities for
me...and others. I'd still like to know what "Thanks for all your
help!" refers to. Maybe it's gonna turn out to be another "Rosebud"....
Hey Stan, sounds like you got Alaska checked off your list (or had
you before Oshkosh?)....so the only one left is Hawaii?
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/440+ hrs
On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:06 PM, SOURDOSTAN@aol.com wrote:
> The third signature on the Laramie photo is Pat Redikar (sp?). He
> was Skystar's demo pilot in the mid '90s until he bought a Cassutt
> and went off air racing. The second signator, Skip Cedarquist, was
> an A&P and left Skystar to run an FBO, in northern Idaho I seem to
> remember. Both real nice guys. Skip showed up at Oshkosh a few
> years later to help with the Kitfox booth.
>
> I happened to run into Dean Wilson this past summer in Northway,
> Alaska. I had seen this white high wing four-place homebuilt
> aircraft in Whitehorse, YT, earlier in the day (we'd all
> overnighted there). I looked on the data plate and it said the name
> was "Wilson Special" or something as such. It was obviously a
> homebuilt but it looked like it had been assembled from Piper parts
> (PA 15, 16, 20 types). So when it pulled into Northway, we were in
> the restaurant and one of the three fellas came inside. I asked
> him if he was Dean Wilson, and he said no, but Dean was his
> brother. We chatted awhile about Dean, and then he came inside. We
> had the nicest talk about Avids, Kitfoxes, other designs, and his
> latest creation. He confirmed that the plane had Piper wings and a
> modified fuselage. After some time I asked Dean point blank if he
> had hard feelings about folks taking his designs and running away
> with them. He replied that he was too old and life was too short to
> think about stuff like that. I didn't pursue the conversation any
> further, but we continued to talk for some time until their food
> arrived. One of the nicest conversations I've ever had!!
>
> Stan Specht
> Kitfox Model IV Speedster "Columbine"
> Denver, Colorado
>
>
> See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> ===========================================================
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Speedster Picture at Airport |
All,
On the subject of Skystars demo speedster, I just posted a video to YouTube
that I shot myself at Oshkosh ('92 as I recall) of Jim Franklin doing an
airshow routine in that airplane. I am aware there is already a video out
there of Jim Franklin flying that airplane, but mine is a clearer copy I
believe, and rather than having the music dubbed over the sounds mine has
the actual airshow sounds (including the airplane, the little noise it
made), and the announcers narration of the routine. I thought for those of
you that never had a chance to see that airplane perform, you might enjoy
"being there - airshow central".
Here's the link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513UTHqoZBc
Paul Seehafer
----- Original Message -----
From: "W & R Beck" <trevorkebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Speedster Picture at Airport
> The Denny Kitfox Speedster in the airport photo...
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