---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/19/07: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:22 AM - Re: resending: Help-582 ignition fault (R & L Ainsworth) 2. 04:39 AM - Re: new member to the list (RRTRACK@aol.com) 3. 05:24 AM - Short Changing Ourselves!! (RAY Gignac) 4. 06:15 AM - Short Changing Ourselves!! (fox5flyer) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Randy Lervold) 6. 07:34 AM - Re: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires (Charles Boccaccio) 7. 07:59 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave) 8. 08:16 AM - Re: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires (Charles Boccaccio) 9. 08:33 AM - Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires (fox5flyer) 10. 08:45 AM - Skiplane flight...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 11. 09:06 AM - Re: Test Fit Needed Mid Atlantic Area (Mdkitfox@aol.com) 12. 09:10 AM - Re: Merry Christmas (Mdkitfox@aol.com) 13. 12:37 PM - Re: Skiplane flight...off topic (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 14. 01:08 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (darinh) 15. 01:08 PM - Re: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires (Lowell Fitt) 16. 01:42 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Dan Billingsley) 17. 01:44 PM - Re: Skiplane flight...off topic (Lynn Matteson) 18. 03:18 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (kitfoxmike) 19. 03:22 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (kitfoxmike) 20. 03:24 PM - Short Changing Ourselves! (RAY Gignac) 21. 04:15 PM - Re: For Sale (Robert Simon) 22. 05:39 PM - Re: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires (kitfoxmike) 23. 06:10 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (ronlee) 24. 06:33 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave) 25. 06:37 PM - Re: For Sale (dave) 26. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Dan Billingsley) 27. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Kevin Cozik) 28. 07:28 PM - Any Winter Flying Tips (jareds) 29. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: For Sale (Steve Magdic) 30. 09:16 PM - Re: Any Winter Flying Tips (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 31. 11:51 PM - Re: Skiplane flight...off topic (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:50 AM PST US From: "R & L Ainsworth" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: resending: Help-582 ignition fault Thanks to those who replied to my post re ignition. I do not have a tiny tach but I will look into getting one. Russell Ainsworth Mod 4 1050 ZK-KIV NEW ZEALAND Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:36 AM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: new member to the list Yes, register as an Experimental Home Built with 1320# gross or less and without the IFA prop or anything else that would disqualify your plane from the LSA category. Registering the plane as an E-LSA is no longer an option as the deadline soon arrives. (unless they change the deadline of Jan 31, 2008) Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:08 AM PST US From: RAY Gignac Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! I am not trying to stir up problems on the list, I just wanted to throw thi s out as a general question. Why is it that the Kitfox community/builders/ owners sell these fine aircraft so cheap? to me it is like a forclosure, y ou sell a Fox for say $13,000, $18,000 or even $21,000 when in fact it shou ld be worth $35,000 to $40,000 maybe even more! this just makes it bad for other Kitfox builders/Owers who might try to sell there fine craft, and ser iously under values our planes! When you look at the other LSA aircraft on the used market say a CH701 which are listed at $40,000 or others which i s in the ball park compared to new LSA going for $55,000 and up! is the Ki tfox the YUGO of LSA's or is it the BMW which is quality. Ray _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:02 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! Ray, this topic comes and goes. Basically, in my opinion, it's nothing more than "the market sets the price". In other words, one sells his airplane for whatever he/she can get. There are many variables involved, ie., how motivated the seller is, model, engine, panel, quality of build, damage history, location, overall condition, hangared, etc. You see a lot of experimental airplanes on Barnstormers, etc asking 55k+ (for example), but that doesn't mean they're getting that much in the end. Price it low and it sells quickly. Price it too high and it won't sell. Sure some folks make a profit on their airplanes, but the truth be known, I doubt that very many of the builders actually get back what they have in them. That isn't a Kitfox problem. It's the experimental market. When I sold my Model II, I got pretty close to what I had in it and I was satisfied because I flew it for nearly 400 hours and that counts for a lot. Just my opinion. Deke S5 NE Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: RAY Gignac To: kitfox-list Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:23 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! I am not trying to stir up problems on the list, I just wanted to throw this out as a general question. Why is it that the Kitfox community/builders/owners sell these fine aircraft so cheap? to me it is like a forclosure, you sell a Fox for say $13,000, $18,000 or even $21,000 when in fact it should be worth $35,000 to $40,000 maybe even more! this just makes it bad for other Kitfox builders/Owers who might try to sell there fine craft, and seriously under values our planes! When you look at the other LSA aircraft on the used market say a CH701 which are listed at $40,000 or others which is in the ball park compared to new LSA going for $55,000 and up! is the Kitfox the YUGO of LSA's or is it the BMW which is quality. Ray ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:40 AM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! I'm considering starting a Super Sport and have been wondering the same thing regarding resale value. Having built two RVs, and being familiar with that market, I know that you can almost always get more than you have into a flying aircraft, so long as the equipment and build quality are at least average. In checking around though it seems that with most other kit aircraft you are lucky to recoup your hard costs. For the later 912 equipped Kitfoxes, what is typical resale versus what is invested? Randy Lervold Camas, WA www.rv-3.com www.rv-8.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:13 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! Ray, this topic comes and goes. Basically, in my opinion, it's nothing more than "the market sets the price". In other words, one sells his airplane for whatever he/she can get. There are many variables involved, ie., how motivated the seller is, model, engine, panel, quality of build, damage history, location, overall condition, hangared, etc. You see a lot of experimental airplanes on Barnstormers, etc asking 55k+ (for example), but that doesn't mean they're getting that much in the end. Price it low and it sells quickly. Price it too high and it won't sell. Sure some folks make a profit on their airplanes, but the truth be known, I doubt that very many of the builders actually get back what they have in them. That isn't a Kitfox problem. It's the experimental market. When I sold my Model II, I got pretty close to what I had in it and I was satisfied because I flew it for nearly 400 hours and that counts for a lot. Just my opinion. Deke S5 NE Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: RAY Gignac To: kitfox-list Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:23 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! I am not trying to stir up problems on the list, I just wanted to throw this out as a general question. Why is it that the Kitfox community/builders/owners sell these fine aircraft so cheap? to me it is like a forclosure, you sell a Fox for say $13,000, $18,000 or even $21,000 when in fact it should be worth $35,000 to $40,000 maybe even more! this just makes it bad for other Kitfox builders/Owers who might try to sell there fine craft, and seriously under values our planes! When you look at the other LSA aircraft on the used market say a CH701 which are listed at $40,000 or others which is in the ball park compared to new LSA going for $55,000 and up! is the Kitfox the YUGO of LSA's or is it the BMW which is quality. Ray ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:46 AM PST US From: Charles Boccaccio Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires Hi Greg: I ordered the tires from Tiresunlimited.com The tire size is 21 x 12 - 8. The model number is N800 and the part number is T30151002, they cost $27.64 each plus shipping. They'll arrive tied together and it's a little tricky getting the tires mounted since they are collapsed and don't seal against the rim. I tied a tourniquet around the periphery of the tire and this forced the inner tire to mont on the rim and hold the 5 PSI the tires need to roll your Kitfox. So far I have about 60 landings on the tires and they have been a joy. Expect a very mild jolt when you touch down on asphalt, since there is a lot of tire that has to get spinning, but landing on grass or gravel is is always a charm. On a tail dragger, your prop will have about two extra inches of clerance. I cannot say how much cruise speed has been effected by the new tires, but what ever it is, it's minor. The tires wiegh the same as the original tires the kit came with. Charlie GONER752@aol.com wrote: Charlie, Could you provide some specifics? Size, price, source? Thanks, Greg G. Macedon, N.Y. 23NK n375KL Mod 2 582 do not archive --------------------------------- See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:38 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "dave" Sad but true that you will lose 50% of your cash outlay on a Kitplane in many cases. I said many times that Kitfoxes are CHEAP CHHEAP CHEAP !!!! look at Challengers selling for over 30k with a 503 and a Kitfox IV with 912 selling for 22k . HEll of a deal. With a used market like this , is makes it harder to build a new one from investment point of view plus you can fly now for less than 1/2 of the price. Now a few of us have agreed that the Kitfox Market has likely bottomed out and maybe they will appreciate from here.? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153093#153093 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:17 AM PST US From: Charles Boccaccio Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires Jeff: Max gross for the Grove landing gear on the Kitfox3 is 1,200 Lbs. The tires are rated to only 355 lbs at 5 PSI, so I keep my gross weight to no more then 710 Lbs. Charlie jeff puls wrote: Charlie, What kind of useful load do you have with the tires and Grove gear? Jeff Classic IV ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Boccaccio To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:01 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires A few months ago there was talk on the list about bush tires on Kitfoxes. Please find attached a picture of my KF3 with Nankang tires. I've rolled the plane up to 45MPH (well above normal operating speed) and they roll just fine and landings are a little more forgiving. Charlie Kitfox 3 --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:39 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires Is that the same tire that was marketed as Kingfox. ?? Deke S5 NE Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Boccaccio To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:26 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires Hi Greg: I ordered the tires from Tiresunlimited.com The tire size is 21 x 12 - 8. The model number is N800 and the part number is T30151002, they cost $27.64 each plus shipping. They'll arrive tied together and it's a little tricky getting the tires mounted since they are collapsed and don't seal against the rim. I tied a tourniquet around the periphery of the tire and this forced the inner tire to mont on the rim and hold the 5 PSI the tires need to roll your Kitfox. So far I have about 60 landings on the tires and they have been a joy. Expect a very mild jolt when you touch down on asphalt, since there is a lot of tire that has to get spinning, but landing on grass or gravel is is always a charm. On a tail dragger, your prop will have about two extra inches of clerance. I cannot say how much cruise speed has been effected by the new tires, but what ever it is, it's minor. The tires wiegh the same as the original tires the kit came with. Charlie GONER752@aol.com wrote: Charlie, Could you provide some specifics? Size, price, source? Thanks, Greg G. Macedon, N.Y. 23NK n375KL Mod 2 582 do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See AOL's ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:01 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...off topic Just made my first skiplane (Kitfox IV/Jabiru 2200 w/skis) flight of the season. Eight to ten inches of snow on the field, but my hangar neighbor had cleared out the area in front of mine, so I got it out and turned and hangar doors closed before startup. (I learned my lesson from last year's mistake of leaving them open and finding snow all over everything upon return.) A couple of 2 foot drifts were handled nicely...up and over...and the taxi to the far end of the 1700-foot field was with about 1500-2200 rpm to keep it moving. Made the mag check while taxiing, turned just fine and started the run. It was slow going at first, then the skis climbed up a bit on top of snow, speed picked up and off I went. Flew to a field nearby(3NP), landed, taxied a bit, shut down, had coffee, fired up and left without incident. There were drifts at Napoleon (3NP) too, but the 'fox handled 'em with ease, and I got off there too, but carrying a bunch of snow up with me, on the skis....most blew off later. Landed at home field by holding off on touchdown until close to hangar area, then dropped her in...didn't want to have to taxi too far. Would have flown more but ceiling was low, and didn't want to chance flying to JXN for fuel and run into less-than-VFR. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:02 AM PST US From: Mdkitfox@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Test Fit Needed Mid Atlantic Area I'm about 6 feet and the same weight. I have flown the IV and while it is snug, especially with another person on board. It would not be very c omfortable for a long trip. The Series V (and up) is a much better fit for a big guy. I don't know anyone near Dover to give you a test flight, but Ray G., if you're reading this you might know someone who can help this person out. Rick Weiss Series V Speedster - N39RW, 912S Power DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/18/2007 11:58:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rklarich@msn.com writes: Hello, I'm 6'1 and 230# and found out I should get a test fit in a KF 3 or 4 before diving into a purchase- anyone that can help? 19934 zip code, near Dover, DE. Thanks! **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:41 AM PST US From: Mdkitfox@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Merry Christmas The ladies and gentlemen on this list are the finest folks on the planet and it's our wish that you have a very Merry Christmas and happy, healthy new year. Fly safe in 08. :-) Rick Weiss Series V Speedster - N39RW, 912S Power DO NOT ARCHIVE **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:22 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...off topic Hi Lynn, I love the skis also, Just be careful of slush if you land on th e frozen lakes. My new prop should be here today. Do you pull a drag up an d down the field to pack the snow? I've been doing that for about 5 years on my strip and I think I have finally come up with a drag that really work s. If you want, I could describe it and post a picture. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...o ff topic> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:44:29 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics. > Just made my first skiplane (Kitfox IV/Jabiru 2200 w/skis) flight of > t he season. Eight to ten inches of snow on the field, but my hangar > neighb or had cleared out the area in front of mine, so I got it out > and turned and hangar doors closed before startup. (I learned my > lesson from last ye ar's mistake of leaving them open and finding snow > all over everything up on return.) A couple of 2 foot drifts were > handled nicely...up and over.. .and the taxi to the far end of the > 1700-foot field was with about 1500-2 200 rpm to keep it moving. Made > the mag check while taxiing, turned just fine and started the run. It > was slow going at first, then the skis climb ed up a bit on top of > snow, speed picked up and off I went. Flew to a fie ld nearby(3NP), > landed, taxied a bit, shut down, had coffee, fired up and left > without incident. There were drifts at Napoleon (3NP) too, but the > 'fox handled 'em with ease, and I got off there too, but carrying a > bun ch of snow up with me, on the skis....most blew off later. Landed > at home field by holding off on touchdown until close to hangar area, > then dropp ed her in...didn't want to have to taxi too far. Would have > flown more bu t ceiling was low, and didn't want to chance flying to > JXN for fuel and r un into less-than-VFR.> > Lynn Matteson> Grass Lake, Michigan> Kitfox IV Sp ========================> _ ======================> > > _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "darinh" The market on the RVs is a completely different animal altogether than most other experimental markets...you can actually recoup if not make money on a flying RV. The way I see it with the kitfox is that if you decide to build one, it is not based on the resale value, it is based on the flying qualities and the fun factor...it is hard to beat a Kitfox for the type of flying it was designed for. Having said that, resale is always a consideration but I figure if I have to sell it down the road, I will get what I get and chock the loss up to a ton of fun flying hours in the plane. I know I will never get even close to what I have in my plane back out of it but I don't plan on selling...if life makes me, well then I guess I will deal with that then. By the way, has anyone checked the prices of new Rotax engines? A 912s is over $18k! Prices like these should increase the value of our Kitfoxes to some extent. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (under Construction) 914 Turbo Ogden, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153131#153131 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:54 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires Charlie, I think you might be underestimating the Nankang tires. I flew with them on my Model IV for about three years and never hesitated to fly at 1200 lbs. This flying included lots of off pavement landings. I suspect the tires are rated as they are because they are designed for the ATV market where rough terrain at fairly high speeds is common. After my chrash landing, which tore the aluminum spring gear off the airplane, one of the Nankang tires was still inflated and the other was flat. I didn't have time to carefully examine the flattened tire to determine why it lost air. I am not suggesting abusing any of the equipment we use, but in this case, I think in the normal use of these tires on our airplanes, they are fine up to the rated weight of the airframe in the earlier models. Yes, these were the tires sold as Kingfox. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Boccaccio" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires > Jeff: > > Max gross for the Grove landing gear on the Kitfox3 is 1,200 Lbs. > > The tires are rated to only 355 lbs at 5 PSI, so I keep my gross weight > to no more then 710 Lbs. > > Charlie > > jeff puls wrote: > Charlie, > What kind of useful load do you have with the tires and Grove gear? Jeff > Classic IV > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles Boccaccio > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:01 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires > > > A few months ago there was talk on the list about bush tires on Kitfoxes. > > Please find attached a picture of my KF3 with Nankang tires. I've rolled > the plane up to 45MPH (well above normal operating speed) and they roll > just fine and landings are a little more forgiving. > > Charlie > Kitfox 3 > > --------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:15 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! Randy, You bring up a good point as well as a question. Why is it with an RV you can re-coup your investment and with a Kitfox, as it stands now...you will loose? I can answer that question...because the Kitfox community has allowed it. I am currently building a very modified IV and I know I will be very happy with it when it's finished. I will have close to $50,000 in it when all is said and done and it dose grind on me that the market has the mindset it does. When I was up at the factory fly-in this last year I had this discussion with John McBean and he made a statement that I hope takes hold. Correct me if I get this wrong John...but he said once the aviation comunity starts looking at the newer Kitfoxes for what they are...then that old mindset should go away. These newer planes ARE a high performance ride when you place a 912s out front then add in-flight adjustable props, electric trim, glass panels, etc...These make for one nice plane and are not comparable to the older generation Kitfoxes. Now I don't want to get into a pissing match with someone that has an older plane...I will be the first to say that I have seen workmanship on older planes that should bring in big bucks in re-sale...alot has to do with the workmanship. My point is simply this...these planes need to be purchased and looked at on an individual basis. If you have never flown in one of the new foxes, you need to try one on before you scoff. Until the sellers start to hold their own in a buyers market, we may never see the change we all would like to see. It will be up to the Kitfox community to take this stand. Looks like I found my soapbox. Dan Billingsley Mesa, AZ http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html Randy Lervold wrote: .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } I'm considering starting a Super Sport and have been wondering the same thing regarding resale value. Having built two RVs, and being familiar with that market, I know that you can almost always get more than you have into a flying aircraft, so long as the equipment and build quality are at least average. In checking around though it seems that with most other kit aircraft you are lucky to recoup your hard costs. For the later 912 equipped Kitfoxes, what is typical resale versus what is invested? Randy Lervold Camas, WA www.rv-3.com www.rv-8.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:13 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! Ray, this topic comes and goes. Basically, in my opinion, it's nothing more than "the market sets the price". In other words, one sells his airplane for whatever he/she can get. There are many variables involved, ie., how motivated the seller is, model, engine, panel, quality of build, damage history, location, overall condition, hangared, etc. You see a lot of experimental airplanes on Barnstormers, etc asking 55k+ (for example), but that doesn't mean they're getting that much in the end. Price it low and it sells quickly. Price it too high and it won't sell. Sure some folks make a profit on their airplanes, but the truth be known, I doubt that very many of the builders actually get back what they have in them. That isn't a Kitfox problem. It's the experimental market. When I sold my Model II, I got pretty close to what I had in it and I was satisfied because I flew it for nearly 400 hours and that counts for a lot. Just my opinion. Deke S5 NE Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: RAY Gignac To: kitfox-list Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:23 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves!! I am not trying to stir up problems on the list, I just wanted to throw this out as a general question. Why is it that the Kitfox community/builders/owners sell these fine aircraft so cheap? to me it is like a forclosure, you sell a Fox for say $13,000, $18,000 or even $21,000 when in fact it should be worth $35,000 to $40,000 maybe even more! this just makes it bad for other Kitfox builders/Owers who might try to sell there fine craft, and seriously under values our planes! When you look at the other LSA aircraft on the used market say a CH701 which are listed at $40,000 or others which is in the ball park compared to new LSA going for $55,000 and up! is the Kitfox the YUGO of LSA's or is it the BMW which is quality. Ray href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:08 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...off topic I'm still waiting for the lakes to become safe enough. Today's flights...I went up again for a fuel run...were interesting. After a load of fuel (26 gals. total) was in, no problem with TO at paved field, but getting off from subsequent (non-packed) grass field was WAY longer than this mornings' flight...and landing there was a bear too. As soon as the tail touched (first), the mains then touched, and the tail came up pretty good. That stuff is really deep and wet. Ambient was about 35 F at the time, and had been for a few hours. So the snow became sluggish and hard to push through. As I said, taking off took about half of the 2400-some foot runway...I just had to wait until it bounced enough to stay up out of the snow for a little bit, and it was flying. Landing at home field was again a breeze (wind of 11 mph, gusts of 19, 60 degrees off right side) and I could carry the plane just off the runway until I wanted to let it down. Yes, I'd like to see your drag, Jim. Might get others interested, too. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/440+ hrs do not archive On Dec 19, 2007, at 3:32 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote: > Hi Lynn, I love the skis also, Just be careful of slush if you > land on the frozen lakes. My new prop should be here today. Do you > pull a drag up and down the field to pack the snow? I've been > doing that for about 5 years on my strip and I think I have finally > come up with a drag that really works. If you want, I could > describe it and post a picture. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...off topic > > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:44:29 -0500 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > Just made my first skiplane (Kitfox IV/Jabiru 2200 w/skis) flight of > > the season. Eight to ten inches of snow on the field, but my hangar > > neighbor had cleared out the area in front of mine, so I got it out > > and turned and hangar doors closed before startup. (I learned my > > lesson from last year's mistake of leaving them open and finding > snow > > all over everything upon return.) A couple of 2 foot drifts were > > handled nicely...up and over...and the taxi to the far end of the > > 1700-foot field was with about 1500-2200 rpm to keep it moving. Made > > the mag check while taxiing, turned just fine and started the > run. It > > was slow going at first, then the skis climbed up a bit on top of > > snow, speed picked up and off I went. Flew to a field nearby(3NP), > > landed, taxied a bit, shut down, had coffee, fired up and left > > without incident. There were drifts at Napoleon (3NP) too, but the > > 'fox handled 'em with ease, and I got off there too, but carrying a > > bunch of snow up with me, on the skis....most blew off later. Landed > > at home field by holding off on touchdown until close to hangar > area, > > then dropped her in...didn't want to have to taxi too far. Would > have > > flown more but ceiling was low, and didn't want to chance flying to > > JXN for fuel and run into less-than-VFR. > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Grass Lake, Michigan > > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > > flying w/440+ hrs > > do not archive > > > > > > > &==================== > > > > > > > > > The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on > an Xbox 360 Console. Get it now!_- > ============================================================ _- > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:43 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "kitfoxmike" Hummmm.... those old kitfoxes. Well mine is an old one. It's light, white, and quite. My perfect airplane for pure fun. Sure I don't want to take it on a loooong ride. But the short ones, it can't be beat. I to think about the resale. with the tt being over 1000 now. I look it this way. I flew 400 flights so far this year, still flying. 300 hours, still counting. If I were to rent a cessna at 110 an hour. that comes to 33000 dollars. OUCH!! My cost for the fuel was somewhere around 3500 dollars. I had the cheapest fun imaginable. Will I ever sell, I'm thinking no. I'm building a rv7, that's for the long cross country flights, so I guess I'll be looking for a hanger for the 7 and keep the kitfox in it's current hanger. Money, not a factor, I have plenty. so I mainly am looking for what makes ME happy and the kitfox does just that, the rv will also. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153149#153149 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:11 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "kitfoxmike" One thing I forgot. It's not what you have in the airplane that counts. gadgets. It's how light it is, how white it is and how quite is important as well, that's for those pilots that seem to want to turn in everybody under the sun. But light should be the priority because the airplane will fly different with all the junk on board. My Rv will be minimal vfr with a 496 hand held and of course a radio, I have leather seats with heat, had to keep the wife happy, other than that, very basic. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153152#153152 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:01 PM PST US From: RAY Gignac Subject: Kitfox-List: Short Changing Ourselves! I did not mean to open a can of worms, or to revisit the past, or to pour s alt in an old wound! but I like the responses so far. Look, I'm not tryin g to compare a Kitfox to an RV, or trying to recoup builders value. I know folks will sell there fine machines far less than what they may be worth a fter all we have no KELLY'S BLUE BOOK VALUE and dollars talk! with the gro wing LSA market and all the new aircraft I just see our Kitfox planes worth much more than what they are being offered at. This is by far a fun plane to fly. Ray Gignac N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: For Sale From: Robert Simon Steve, You make no mention of a cabin heater? I would like to see pictures? Over,and out Vieux Bob On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:31:57 -0600 "Steve Magdic" writes: Due to financial concerns I have to put my KitFox up for sale. It's a model 3 with the Model 4 wing. I thought I'd offer it to the Matronics KitFox group before I post it on Barnstormers or some other web based selling platform. I figure it will be in good hands if someone here decided to purchase it. I'll post some pics soon. Here's the description: FOR SALE KitFox Model 3 With Model 4 Wing (Droop Tips) Registered Experimental Rotax 912 UL - 400 Hrs. Engine and Airframe 3 Blade Warp Prop (Overhauled in 07) 20 Gallon Fuel New 3 Leaf Tail Spring with Soft Rubber Tail Wheel Cargo Pod Snow Skis with all Hardware and ReTrax (Ski Mounted) Retractable Roller Wheels For Moving Aircraft Across Hard Surface/Hanger Left Side Toe Brakes Only New Glass - 06/07 All Service Bulletins Complied With Condition Inspection 11/07 Complete Builders Logs, Construction Manuals with Photos Included Engine and Airframe Log Books Up To Date and Included Standard VFR Panel Needs Nothing - Buy It And Fly It Asking $21,500 Contact: Steve Magdic stevemagdic@wi.rr.com (preferred) Home: 262-820-9938 Cell: 262-370-3182 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Bush tires: Kitfox3 on Nankang Tires From: "kitfoxmike" They look just like the kingfox tires I put on this year. I load them right up to 1200 gross on the plane. I took mine to the motorcycle guys and let them install along with balancing them. I run them up to 60mph at times for some exciting wheel landings and wheelies(run on one wheel). No problems with shake. I've put about 5000 touch and goes on these things this year alone, they still look great. I wanted to try them out in the snow on the grass runway, but the airport closed it and wouldn't let me land on it. They sure know how to make a grown man cry sometimes don't they. I had to settle for a runway that was with packed snow and ice, did a bunch of wheel landings with stop and goes. That was fun. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153171#153171 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:37 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "ronlee" I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153178#153178 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! From: "dave" > Ronlee wrote.... > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating. > Well, a 701 will not attract more dollars than Kitfox, they fit in same puzzle it seems that they lose resale value and sell relatively cheap as we are discussing here like the Kitfox. They are slower cruise as well. 701 not a bad plane at all but a Kitfox will outshine it all the way around. 701 will possibly give a higer AOA climb than a Kitfox but the climb rate will not be any better. I have a friend with a 701 /912 UL on wheels-- his cruise is the same as my Kitfox IV /582 on Amphibs - 85 mph. On floats the 701 really slow down to about 70 to 75. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153179#153179 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: For Sale From: "dave" > KitFox Model 3 With Model 4 Wing (Droop Tips) > Registered Experimental > Rotax 912 UL - 400 Hrs. Engine and Airframe > > Asking $21,500 A great deal here if anyone knows someone looking for a Kitfox. What is your Cruise speeds and empty weights ? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153181#153181 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:29 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! Well, several of the comments I have seen here tell a bit of a story. Many of you are looking at your Kitfoxes as being a lesser airplane than say a certified plane...sounding almost like a disposable lighter. ...Well, I got 2000 lights out of her and got my money's worth...huh? If these planes are built well they are better than any spam can you can rent. With that mindset we can forget it. I thought Kitfoxers knew what they had and have what they know is the best plane in its class. And I have trouble seeing the resale is low because it is a fabric plane. Have you priced a Piper Cub lately? I had a Cub driver in my EAA chapter tell me himself that after he flew with a Kitfox he now holds a high respect for them. He couldn't quit talking about how great they are. Of course we all know this...so where is the problem? Dan B ronlee wrote: I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153178#153178 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:26 PM PST US From: "Kevin Cozik" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes......... Hasn't hurt the cubs at all. It is the market that determines what your kitfox is worth. If you choose to list it above what the market is paying, most of the time it will be just that, listed. I built mine with no intention to sell but like Darin, will cross that bridge when the time comes. On the other side of the coin, I bought my model 4 with a 912 second hand and flying. When it came time to sell I saw a return of almost 20% after 2 years of flying. Kevin Cozik Series 6-7 914 Turbo Czech floats Lansing Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: "ronlee" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! > > I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are > fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in > the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating. > > -------- > Ron Lee > Tucson, Arizona > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153178#153178 > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:17 PM PST US From: jareds Subject: Kitfox-List: Any Winter Flying Tips Just wondering if any of you had any 582 winter flying tips. Found a few "targets" out on the ice in the form of shacks / snow banks / Ice hockey poles and flags. On a day below freezing i wondered if a 582 was succeptable to a siezure or some other issue. Any other tips for winter flying. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:39 PM PST US From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: For Sale 5000rpm = 92mph 634lbs Empty Thanks, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: For Sale > > >> KitFox Model 3 With Model 4 Wing (Droop Tips) >> Registered Experimental >> Rotax 912 UL - 400 Hrs. Engine and Airframe >> >> Asking $21,500 > > > A great deal here if anyone knows someone looking for a Kitfox. > > What is your Cruise speeds and empty weights ? > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153181#153181 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:21 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Any Winter Flying Tips The only concerns I have had flying my Avid B and last winter the Mark IV w as staying warm. No problems with the engine and cold weather. When you t hink about it, these engines are basicly detuned snomobile engines (plus so me other changes) and they were made to run in the winter. I did put synth etic oil in the gearboxes so the engine would turn over and start easier. I've always liked the winter flying better than summer. Better lift, smoot her air and lots of emergency fields with the frozen lakes if you need them . Around here, there are more trees than fields. On the heat issue, I bou ght an electric "hot seat" from J C Whitney that plugged into a cigaret lig hter. I have a power point in the plane and I would plug into that. I wou ld slip the hot seat into the back of my snomobile suit and usually had to run it on low or it would be to hot. $20.00 and worth it!! Never had trou ble landing on lakes, till last week when some slush flew up and wrecked my prop. I did replace the 582 in my Mk IV last summer with a Jabiru and no w have a much better heat setup and have not been useing the hotseat. Wint er is not the time to wish you were flying----- go do it!! Just my 2 cent s worth. Jim Chuk> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:27:17 -0600> From: jareds@ver izon.net> Subject: Kitfox-List: Any Winter Flying Tips> To: kitfox-list@mat >> > Just wondering if any of you had any 582 winter flying tips.> Found a few "targets" out on the ice in the form of shacks / snow banks > / Ice hoc key poles and flags.> On a day below freezing i wondered if a 582 was succe ptable to a siezure > or some other issue.> Any other tips for winter flyin ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ i=92m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:29 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Skiplane flight...off topic > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] >...and landing there was a bear > too. As soon as the tail touched (first), the mains then touched, and > the tail came up pretty good. I know what you mean, Lynn. A good thing we have wires that keep the fuselage to the end of the skis. You really can't tip over the nose but it sure feels scary when the tail comes up. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive
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